Good and Evil: A Matter of Historical Perspective

"The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them." -A Link to the Past Instruction Booklet

Throughout the Zelda series the three goddesses, Din, Nayru, and Farore are seen as benevolent beings by the races of Hyrule; throughout the Zelda series, the Kingdom of Hyrule is presented as the 'good guy'...but the nature of a story depends largely on who is doing the telling. In fact, in can make all the difference in our perception of right and wrong...

What is the connection between the following images? Figure one is from Ocarina of Time Master Quest, it is frequently considered to be the symbol of the Gerudo by theorists. In fig. two we see a strikingly similar symbol worn by Ganondorf in The Wind Waker, and fig. three shows a symbol worn by Zant in Twilight Princess. Figure four portrays the machine Gohdan, from the Wind Waker, and fig. five depicts Mazaal, a comparable machine featured in The Minish Cap, and originally built by the Wind Tribe...



As it turns out the explanation of the symbol pictured above ties heavily to the interpretation of good and evil...

- Creators of the Triforce -

How does a mortal understand the nature of a deity? How can a limited mind perceive an omniscient being with omnipotent abilities? The answer to this riddle is contained within the question, namely, the very meaning of the word 'perception'. Perception is defined as "a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression" -Apple Dictionary 2.0.2 (51.4). Basically, perception is a dependent variable. It depends upon the person who is doing the perceiving. How much knowledge do they have that applies to the situation? Is this knowledge accurate? What is this person's philosophy, and what are they willing to accept?

It could be that the Triforce reveals the nature of the goddesses themselves, a reflection, if you will. The opening line of this article reveals the neutrality of the Triforce, its indifference to good and evil. But these terms do not quite grasp what we are aiming for conceptually. The terms 'neutrality' and 'indifference' imply that one has chosen neither good nor evil, instead taking a position that is separate from the two. The goddesses however, are feasibly 'beyond' these notions, they are 'complete' beings, without limitation. Beings with neither flaws, nor admirable traits, beings who exist outside the concept of good and evil. Beings that 'do', not because it is virtuous or dishonorable, but because it 'is'. They exist, and they act for one reason, because that is what they are.

- The Players -

In the creation story told by the Deku Tree, Din created the world, Nayru gave the spirit of law to the world, and Farore produced the life forms that would uphold the law. The spirit of law is necessary because these newly created beings are mortal, they are not perfect, and they have the capacity for both good and wickedness, depending upon the path they choose. Mortals, not being complete beings, cannot 'do' for the sake of doing, mortal actions are for other mortals, or for themselves, and in both cases these actions can be good or evil.

The life forms are meant to uphold the law through their own actions of supporting what is right, and contesting what is not. But of these life forms, there are some that seem to be designated as judges. The Light Spirits condemn the interlopers, banishing them to the Twilight Realm, and they reward Midna's selfless act of sacrifice by restoring her life. In similar fashion, the great fairies test the honesty of mortals by bestowing or withholding items of great value.

Below these powerful, and sacred 'judges' we have races that are adept in magic, the Oocca, the Minish, and notably, the Hylians.

In the third tier, we have the races who, not being magically gifted, still play an important part as the caretakers of the world's natural resources. The obvious races being the Zoras who watch over the waterways, and the Gorons and Kokiri, who look after the mountains and forests respectively.

And finally, we have the flora and fauna that dwell in the various environments.

- The Oocca -

"...the Hylia people, [are said to be] the race closest to the gods, but…truth be told...in ancient times there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylia people...And they, simultaneously with the birth of the Hylia people, created a new capital, a capital that floated in the heavens." -Shad, Twilight Princess (Japanese translation)

The Oocca chose to leave what would later be called Hyrule Field when the Hylians moved onto the scene. With their magical abilities, the Oocca likely foresaw the coming of the war, an inadvertent result of the Hylians' progress...

- The Hylians -

"When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light" -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

"With their magic infused blood, the Hylian people were endowed with psychic powers and skill in wizardry...Their descendants settled in various parts of the world and passed on their knowledge and magical lore to all people." -A Link to the Past Instruction Booklet

If we combine the meanings of these two quotes, we can infer that the Hylians carried out the intention of the goddesses to grant power equally to all. The Hylians may have taught the Gerudo race how to magically call forth fire and ice. The combined effect of these spells allowing the Gerudo to have water any time they might need it, and enabling them to explore the far reaches of the desert.

"If you can overcome the trials in the chambers ahead, then and only then will you be qualified to hold our secret treasure!" -Gerudo Training Ground, Ocarina of Time (referring to the Ice Arrow)

The colors of the symbol on Ganondorf's belt seem to represent fire and ice, the corresponding powers of Koume and Kotake, who acted as Ganondorf's surrogate mother.



- Paradise Lost -

"When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body..." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

It was a time of Utopia, all the races lived in peace, they had all they needed, and nobody was subject to the political authority of another. It was a virtual Garden of Eden, the races had everything.

"[The Triforce] was hidden in a sacred realm beyond the reach of men, but one day...a doorway to that realm was suddenly opened..." -A Link to the Past

The adept magicians of the Hylian race conceivably opened a portal to the Sacred Realm, purely by accident.

"soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

"Hoping to claim the Golden Power as their own, the people began to quarrel and fight..." -A Link to the Past



The races wanted more. Their desire for the Triforce led them to war. Friendly relations ground to a halt as the races began to organize militant societies. The races severed their connections, ceasing to live together, they separated into racial tribes. Each tribe crowned its own king, among the Hylians an adamant, and fiercely determined social climber rose to prominence. His name was Hyrule.

- The False Treasure -

The races had everything, but it wasn't enough...In their mad quest for the ultimate power, they lost all that had made their lives idyllic. The power that might have made them supreme ruler over all the tribes only lost them their freedom, binding them in servitude to their kings. The good life they might have secured forever only lost them their peace as the races prepared for war. The omniscient knowledge they sought only lost them their innocence. The tribes learned the knowledge of good and evil, but that knowledge cost them their freedom, peace and innocence.

Thus began the history of Light and Shadow.

- The Wind Tribe -

Have you ever noticed the similarities between the Wind Tribe and the Gerudo Tribe? The wind tribe has dark skin and red hair, much like the Gerudo. Both tribes wear arabian-style clothing. Compare Link's light skin tone to the man from the Wind Tribe in the image below.



The Wind Tribe's home is near Castor Wilds, a swamp southwest of The Minish Cap's Hyrule Castle. The desert where the Gerudos live is west of the Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. In theory, the Gerudo tribe came to live in two locations, one group in the desert, and one near the swamp.

The colors of the symbol on Ganondorf's belt seem not only to represent fire and ice, but the migration of the Gerudo people as well. The horizontal element in the symbol's center could be the two parts of the tribe heading in their separate directions. The red representing the western desert, and the blue indicating the eastern swamp.



- The Western Alliance -

Because the aforementioned symbol appears on Zant's clothing, we can surmise that the symbol predates Ocarina of Time by a long period. The interlopers were banished to the Twilight Realm long before Twilight Princess, and the Mirror of Twilight predates Ganondorf's 'execution' scene in that game.



The Hylian people, you will remember, settled in various parts of the world. Some, perhaps, remained in the west with the Gerudo & Zuna tribes. In theory, when war broke out, the two branches of the Gerudo allied themselves with the Zunas, and the Hylians who dwelt in the area. The symbol taking on its final level of meaning as the symbol of the 'western alliance'.



But a faction of the Zuna tribe broke off from the alliance in an unexpected double-cross. These were the interlopers.

"Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

These interlopers were eventually banished to the Twilight Realm by the Light Spirits, and their evil magic, the Fused Shadow, split into four pieces. In Twilight Princess we are only told the names of two Twili people, Zant and Midna. If you combine the beginning of Zant with the end of Midna, what you get is not far off from 'Zuna'...

- The Light Force -

During the war, the Minish became concerned for the welfare of the people. They created a golden triangle called the Light Force. The Light Force held the power to defeat evil. They granted this power to the Hylians living under the reign of King Hyrule in the center of the country. The purpose of this power was that it would work towards the goal of settling the war's disputes in favor of what is good and right. This became the Hylian's mightiest magic. The Minish Cap states that when the world was on the verge of being swallowed by shadow, the Minish gave a golden light (the Light Force) to man.

"Many sought to enter the hidden Golden Land... But none returned, and instead evil power began to issue forth from the dark portal..." -A Link to the Past

Hyrule, the king of the Hylians, boldly & decisively ordered the Hylian's most powerful magicians, the seven sages, to seal shut the doorway to the Sacred Realm.



To ensure the seal would remain intact, it was locked shut by the Master Sword, a blade that the sages had infused with the Light Force. Because evil could never touch the blade, the seal would remain protected.

"The Master Sword...was the final key to the Sacred Realm." -Rauru, Ocarina of Time

This daring act brought about a precarious peace. With access to the Sacred Realm no longer available, the violence ceased, but a nagging doubt began to permeate the tribes. Could this man Hyrule be trusted?

- The Kingdom of Hyrule -

"Those who do not know the danger of wielding power will, before long, be ruled by it. Never forget that..." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

Possessing sole access to the Sacred Realm, Hyrule became a powerful man. His success paved the way to arrogance, which in turn became a consuming lust for power. He began to demand tribute of the surrounding tribes. The finest craftsmen of the south were called on for superior weapons and armor.

"The next day, after much encouragement by Rusl, Link prepares to set out and deliver the village's tribute to Hyrule Castle." -Twilight Princess Instruction Booklet

The Gorons were called on for bomb flowers, to clear the newly christened Hyrule Field, and stones to build a castle for Hyrule. The Zoras were asked to supply Hyrule's castle with fresh clean water, and the Deku Tree was tasked with securing the eastern border of Hyrule.



Hyrule is a country surrounded by mountains which block access to intruders, but there are two places which could be used by outsiders to gain access to Hyrule, the western desert, the home of the Zuna and the Gerudo, is a natural deterrent, but the eastern forest is far more vulnerable, accounting for the Lost Woods' power to confuse and mix-up those who enter. Note how these two areas are surrounded by clouds rather than mountains on the Ocarina of Time map.



"In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule...Long have I served as the guardian spirit...I am known as the Deku Tree...For so long, the Kokiri Forest, the source of life, has stood as a barrier, deterring outsiders and maintaining the order of the world..." -Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

Unless Four Swords Adventures and Legend of Zelda take place after The Wind Waker, the desert and the forest may even be ocean ports.



This system of tribute made Hyrule Castle the economic center of the tribal areas. Hyrule was a brilliant man, he had a tremendous gift for strategic politics. His territory, located in the center of the country, became a central trading post for the tribes, which was built up to become the Castle Town Market. Although this was a convenience for the other tribes, its real significance was that it made Hyrule that much more powerful. Hyrule Castle was not only a political power, but an economic power as well, and the profits of the land were funneled into the King's treasury.

Hyrule's genius for tactical strategy should be observed here. All the races had sought to obtain the Triforce, and Hyrule ordered the entrance to the Sacred Realm sealed. With this course of action he accomplished three things. First, he made sure that if his race could not obtain the Triforce, no one else could. Second, by bringing the violence to an end he ensured his race's survival. Third, and most astounding of all, he obtained the power of the Triforce without having to even touch it!

Understand that this is a figure of speech. What the races had hoped to secure from the Triforce was power, wealth, and tribal supremacy. Sealing the Sacred Realm brought Hyrule power, for now he had a formidable bargaining chip; the ownership of the seal was a looming, silent threat. The end of the hostilities bought him the partnership of the Goron, Zora and Kokiri tribes. This partnership helped him to build Hyrule Castle, which led to his domination of the trade industry with Castle Town Market. This political and economic power made the Hyrulian Royalty the most powerful race in the country, which was the same as tribal supremacy for most intents and purposes, if not officially so.

- The Boston Tea Party; Robin Hood -

Few could see into the mind of the man Hyrule. To the Gorons, Zora, and the Kokiri, it seemed that they were simply helping to build a strong kingdom that would establish and keep the peace. But the Western Alliance saw only the greed of Hyrule, and viewed his taxation as a blunt attack on thier sovereignty, which for all intents and purposes, it was. The alliance denied all ties to the Kingdom of Hyrule and instead of paying tribute, they became thieves, and stole from the man who they saw as the biggest thief of all; Hyrule. This was not only a blunt political statement, but it became a necessary living for the Gerudo when the Western Alliance's political stance cut them off from the trade center of the country, Hyrule Market. The Gerudo saw this man Hyrule as a leech on society, extorting the other tribes. The Wind Tribe, living closer to Hyrule Castle than the Gerudo, disagreed. They broke off from the alliance, and became loyal partners to the Hyrulian Royal Family. Less obstinate than the desert Gerudo, the Wind Tribe likely saw the need, nay the tremendous advantage, of obtaining a share in the economic market.

Making no claims that Gustaf was the first king of Hyrule, this quote shows the ties that existed between the Wind Tribe and the Royal Family:

"Gustaf, Royal Spirit
The spirit of an ancient king of Hyrule...He was very fond of the people of the Wind Tribe." -The Minish Cap

Mazaal, a machine built by the Wind Tribe, bears the half-red, half-blue markings that we saw on Ganondorf's belt in The Wind Waker. A coloration perchance symbolic of the Gerudo and the Wind Tribe's shared history.



In The Minish Cap, Mazaal's purpose is to guard the Ocarina of Winds, which helps Link gain access to the Wind Element, a necessity for the salvation of Hyrule. In The Wind Waker, Gohdan's function is to test Link's courage, which gains Link access to the sealed Kingdom of Hyrule and the Master Sword. Given the Wind Tribe's connection to the Hyrulian Royal Family, and the service these machines render in the interest of Hyrule, it could be concluded that both machines were built by the Wind Tribe.



The Wind Tribe eventually departed from the swamp, to their new home in the clouds, but they still paid the King of Hyrule tribute by sending down favorable winds that blew gently over the lush green hills of Hyrule.

"We are the Tribe of the Winds. Long have we lived with the winds. We have mastered them. Now, we join them. Together, with the great winds at our backs, we head for the skies." -The Minish Cap

"My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose." -Ganondorf, The Wind Waker

The desert Gerudo had a higher percentage of females, while the swamp Gerudo had a larger proportion of males. When the swamp Gerudo (the Wind Tribe) left for the skies, the male population of the desert Gerudo continued to shrink. The gene pool had grown weaker. More and more females were being born, and less and less males.

- Enter the Sheikah -

The Temple of Time has safely housed the Triforce for many years now. Acting upon rumors of limitless power, Vaati uses the power of the Minish Cap to drain the Light Force from Princess Zelda. Using the power of the Four Sword, Link defeats Vaati. Vaati is shocked that the Light Force did not give him the endless power he expected. Vaati was probably searching for the Triforce, but got his legends of golden triangles in the Royal Family's possession confused.

In the Four Swords backstory Vaati returned to Hyrule, kidnapping any beautiful girls that caught his fancy. None of the knights from the castle or any other brave men could manage to subdue Vaati or rescue the girls. Eventually a young boy came and sealed away Vaati within the Four Sword.

Forgive the off-color topic, but theoretically, Vaati forced himself on the Hylian girls, and they bore him children. It is shocking to American standards to think Nintendo would include the element of rape within the Zelda series, but keep in mind that the Zelda series is made in Japan, and as long as Nintendo keeps the details vague, there will never be 'proof' of rape. But take a look at this revealing quote from when Vaati kidnaps Zelda.

"I sensed a great power approaching, so I hid myself. But my, what a lovely catch! Surely you must be some noble maiden. My name is Vaati. I am the great wind mage! The seal is broken...so I shall rage yet again! Hoh hoh hoh! And what a gift awaits my return! I shall make you my bride! Onward we go, to my palace of winds! Hoh hoh hoh!" -Vaati, Four Swords



Zelda is certainly an unwilling captive, and yet Vaati says he will "make" her his bride. This is a direct indication of the use of force. This is a particularly potent wording. Any children born to Vaati would be half-Hylian, and would very likely have a natural inclination towards 'the dark side', if you will forgive the expression. This could be the origin of the Sheikah, the 'shadows' of the Hylians.

Since the Sheikah were half-Hylian, some may have chosen to stay in the jurisdiction of Hyrule, while those who did not left for the desert, and joined the Hylians in the only other political party, the Western Alliance.

Compare the appearance of Vaati to Impa, one of the Sheikah. Both have silvery-blond hair and red eyes, as well as purplish attire.

This image gives us a better view of Impa's hair and eyes.



The symbol Impa wears is one of the forms Vaati took in The Minish Cap.



- Revenge Brewing -

Vaati had been defeated but the world took note of his amazing feat. Vaati had actually managed to take the Hylian's greatest magic, the Light Force, and turn it against them. This was an astonishing coup. This had the potential to shift the balance of power, and the Sheikah in the Western Alliance were quick to take note. They studied this dark power in order to launch an offensive against Hyrule's empire. If they could only wrest control of the Triforce from the Royal Family's hands, the world would once more be free. The tribes would regain their sovereignty, and be rid of Hyrule's controlling monarchy.

"Have you heard the legend of the "Shadow Folk"? They are the Sheikah...the shadows of the Hylians." -NPC, Ocarina of Time

"I am Impa, one of the Sheikah. I am Princess Zelda's caretaker, and I am also the Sage who guards the Shadow Temple." -Impa, Ocarina of Time

Consider some evidence suggesting that the magic of the Shadow Folk, the Sheikah, is based on Vaati's corruption of the Light Force. The Shadow symbol is an upside-down triangle. Yellow is the opposite of Purple on the color wheel. The golden Light Force is presented in The Minish Cap as a yellow triangle.



- The Prolonged Wars -

But there were tribes that did not want to be 'free'. They believed in their alliance with the King of Hyrule. Like the Western Alliance, they too, believed that they were doing the 'right thing'. The conflict thought to be over was swiftly returning. The Western Alliance desired independence, the Hyrulian Royalty sought to preserve their empire, and the remaining tribes supported Hyrule because they saw it as key to keeping the peace. This struggle prolonged the tribal wars of old.

- The Empire Strikes Back -

The Sheikah invaded Hyrule, and though they brought on a fierce war, they lost. When the dust cleared, the only Sheikah remaining were those who had sworn fealty to the house of Hyrule. Rumors spread that the Sheikah rebels who were not killed were sealed in a Dark Mirror.

The Western Alliance was now only a shadow of its former glory. The Zuna tribe's numbers had dwindled due to the interloper conflict, then the Wind Tribe had broken off and joined Hyrule's empire, and now, the Hylian and Sheikah members of the alliance were gone. Only the Gerudo tribe and a handful of Zuna remained.



- The Watchers -

What about the sacred beings who acted as judges? Where were they in all of this? Were they just resting on their laurels, letting the world take its own course? If Hyrule was a corrupt man building a powerful empire, shouldn't they have stopped him?

"It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

Although Lanayru claims to have recieved an order from the goddesses to banish the interlopers, the goddesses had left the world as soon as they made the Triforce.

"The three great goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens. And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world." -Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

The judges merely acted on the principles left to them by the goddesses; the spirit of law, a code for mortals, inapplicable to perfect, complete beings like the goddesses. It was the will of the goddesses that mortals obey this code, but they were not going to stay around to enforce it.

"You must know that it was the will of the goddesses that we lock away the forbidden power..." -Lanayru, Twilight Princess

So what of Hyrule? Although his empire was corrupt, the Light Spirits and fairies knew that, eventually, his kingdom would forge the path of justice and truth in this new world of good and evil. A world that had lost its innocence, and was now in need a system of law and order.

Think of the clichéd western movie that needs a 'tough sheriff to tame a tough town'. The protagonist, the hardened lawman, although being halfway corrupt himself, manages to rid the town of outlaws, and pave the path for peace. If the Light Spirits foresaw that Hyrule's questionable empire would someday bring peace to the world, then could they, in good conscience, oppose him?

- Deception -

Generations have passed since the original king of Hyrule was in power. His descendant and namesake now sits on the throne, almost a decade after the fierce war brought on by the Sheikah rebels. The Gerudo tribe seems to have finally come around to accepting Hyrulian authority. Their leader, a bold man named Ganondorf enters the throne room and kneels before Hyrule's newest King, finally swearing allegiance to the King of Hyrule after all these long years.



"Can you see the man with the evil eyes? That is Ganondorf, the leader of the Gerudos. They hail from the desert far to the west. Though he swears allegiance to my father, I am sure he is not sincere." -Zelda, Ocarina of Time

Ganondorf is coming to accept his mantle, to pay the tribute to the King of Hyrule long rejected by his ancestors. The tribute of guarding Hyrule's desert, the western border vulnerable to invasion...or so it seemed. But Ganondorf's objective was selfish, he did not seek to lead the Gerudos to their goal of tribal independence, he sought to conquer the world for himself. Ganondorf cared nothing for the tribe, or the goals of the Western Alliance.

- Hyrule's Hope -

The Deku Tree recognizes the threat that Ganondorf poses to the eventual exoneration of Hyrule, and calls Link to Hyrule's aid. But the Deku Tree also acknowledges the long path of redemption Hyrule has ahead of itself; to remove the shameful burden of their dubious past. At the conclusion of the Deku Tree's creation story he says something of great interest.

"Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence. And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm." -Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

Before man discovered the Triforce or the Sacred Realm, he lived in an age of innocence and peace. This innocence, mankind's ignorance of right and wrong, was the basis of the world's original providence.

But once the races discovered the Triforce, once they took up strife with one another, once they discovered bloodshed, once they learned the knowledge of good and evil, everything changed. No longer innocent, man's trust, and man's hope for the future, lay in his own hands. The search for power, the search for wealth; these were the basis of providence in the new world, the world of good and evil. These were what mankind turned to, these were the tools that could save a corrupt society, these were the tools to protect mankind from his lost innocence. In A Link to the Past the Triforce is known as "the Golden Power" this is all that it meant to the people anymore, wealth, and power. The 'golden power'...the power of gold.

And so, the Deku Tree calls for Link, to help Hyrule escape this fate; the fate of power-hungry conquest, for something nobler...

"The youth whose destiny it is to lead Hyrule to the path of justice and truth..." -Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

The fate of Hyrule is the key to the fate of the world, will Hyrule fall prey to its own history of greed and corruption?

"Shadow Temple...Here is gathered Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred..." -Ocarina of Time

Or will it take its place of destiny as the kingdom bound to deliver justice and truth to the people? The call is urgent indeed.

"Fly, Navi, fly! The fate of the forest, nay, the world, depends upon thee!" -Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

Hyrule's money-and-power-mad character is soon witnessed by Link. At the drawbridge, the very entrance to Hyrule Castle Town, Link encounters a soldier, and the first thing that pops out of this man's mouth is:



"Welcome to Hyrule Castle Town. It's a peaceful, prosperous town." -soldier, Ocarina of Time

Right off the bat he's boasting of his town's wealth and prosperity. His town is peaceful due to thick castle walls and a full complement of soldiers. Essentially, this soldier is part of the bureaucracy putting a positive spin on Hyrule's greed and lust for power; the empire's controlling domination of the economic and political scene.

When Link enters the Market, he finds that the people of Hyrule have become infected with greed. Shoppers, squabbling and haggling, push and shove each other to get at the goods, and a man in green (the color of money) can't get the buying fever off his mind.

"C'mon, can't you make it any cheaper?" -shopper, Ocarina of Time

"Hey, let go! It's mine! I found it first!" -shopper, Ocarina of Time

"Hey, who bumped me?!" -shopper, Ocarina of Time

"Please...with (C)...Please sell me something...Please...with (C)..." -man in green, Ocarina of Time

Link's quest is so much more important than just stopping Ganondorf, his quest will symbolically take Hyrule on the first steps towards the path to redemption...

- Epilogue: Change in the Wind -

In Twilight Princess we learn that Midna, the new ruler of the interlopers banished to the Twilght Realm (the Twili) has learned the lessons of the past, and is a ruler capable of leading her people on a path of hope for the future, a future that abandons the greed of the past; the greed that caused the interlopers to be imprisoned in twilight for centuries. This is a lesson that has been learned well. Midna acts as the parental authority figure, chiding Zant for his childish, greedy nature.

"You want to know why none would call you king? It was your eyes, Zant. All saw it, a lust for power burning in your pupils... Did you think we'd forget our ancestors lost their king to such greed?" -Midna, Twilight Princess

But this is a lesson the people of Hyrule are just beginning to learn, not having the insight granted by centuries-long imprisonment. This lesson is only now finding the light of day, and Princess Zelda begins to grasp the nature of the lesson known so well to Midna and her people.

"Despite your mortal injuries, you act in our stead...These dark times are the result of our deeds, yet it is you who have reaped the penalty. Accept this now, Midna. I pass it to you..." -Zelda, Twilight Princess

"Shadow and light are two sides of the same coin...One cannot exist without the other." -Zelda, Twilight Princess

The double-meaning of Zelda's dialogue is more than coincidence. She admits that Light and Shadow are utterly linked to one another like two sides of a coin. Yet the mention of the word coin is ironic indeed, for it was greed that drove the wedge between nations, between light and shadow, greed for wealth and greed for power; and money is economic power. Perhaps you could say that Shadow and light are two sides of the same rupee...

"I know now the reason the goddesses left the Mirror of Twilight in this world...They left it because it was their design that we should meet." -Zelda, Twilight Princess

The dark times of Twilight Princess teach the people of Hyrule a valuable lesson. From the Twili they learn the need to let go of the greed of the past, and to move on towards a future of hope. At the end of Zelda's revelation she pauses for a moment, to convince herself.

"Yes... That is what I believe." -Zelda, Twilight Princess

Again, we see that mortals choose their perceptions. They choose to accept certain beliefs. The goddesses are not truly concerned with good and evil, they live in a state of mind beyond those trifles. The Triforce itself seems to be what drove the people to war in the first place, in this light, the Triforce could hardly be considered a gift or a blessing from the goddesses, it is entirely possible that the Triforce was an unintentional by-product of the goddesses leaving for another dimension, a piece of waste, like exhaust from a car; albeit a magically powerful piece of waste that bore the imprint of the goddesses character.




But, if it is helpful for the people to believe in the benevolence of the goddesses, then let it be so. We can only hope, that in time, the people of Twilight Princess can manage to implement what they have been taught.

One can hardly blame Midna for her somewhat condescending, patronizing tone.

"Zelda... Your words are kind, and your heart is true. If all in Hyrule are like you...Then maybe you'll do all right." -Midna, Twilight Princess



Midna's people have been imprisoned for centuries, this is a lesson they have learned well. Zelda is just now learning the lesson that can lead her people on the path to maturity, just as Zelda has finally learned to be a leader from her failed effort to stand against Zant's evil, saving herself from the fog of twilight that enshrouded her people as she sat helplessly in her tower watching. Zelda has learned that a leader must lead, not surrender. If the people lose their leader they can choose to surrender, but it is the duty of a good ruler to lead their people to the very end, to take a chance at survival, rather than giving in.

In contrast to Zelda's realization, Ganondorf stands as a relic from the past. He will not give up his ideology, he will not give up the greed of old, he will not mature. He will do all he can to continue in the path of conflict and destruction paved by history.

"Do not think this ends here...The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!" -Ganondorf, Twilight Princess



The villain is immaturity itself. The unwillingness to let go, to move on. In Ocarina of Time, Link left the childhood of the Kokiri Forest behind, but Ganondorf will not move on.

Because of Ganondorf's leadership, the Gerudo lose faith in the Western Alliance. No longer under the influence of Twinrova's brainwashing, they see that Ganondorf was despicable. Ganondorf was not trying to regain their independence, and the people of Hyrule, corrupt or not, were only trying to preserve their own lives.

The Western Alliance's goal of independence was noble, but in this ever-changing world, that point had become moot. The Gerudo saw that Hyrule was moving on the path of what is just and right, and they were willing to resolve their differences. The world so long at war, was growing up. By the time of Four Swords Adventures, the Gerudo are in full alliance with the King of Hyrule, accepting the role of guarding the desert as destiny.

"Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert." -Gerudo, Four Swords Adventures

This article is best summed up by Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule. In the adult timeline branch, he is leaving behind the past, much like Zelda in Twilight Princess. Daphnes is paying penance for the sins of the past. The flood is symbolic of repentance and absolution. In this game as well, Ganondorf is unwilling to let go of the past.

"My children... Listen to me. I have lived regretting the past. And I have faced those regrets. If only I could do things over again...Not a day of my life has gone by without my thoughts turning to my kingdom of old. I have lived bound to Hyrule. In that sense, I was the same as Ganondorf. But you...I want you to live for the future...you must look forward and walk a path of hope, trusting that it will sustain you when darkness comes...Please...forgive us." -Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule, The Wind Waker

"W-Wait! You could... You could come with us!" -Zelda, The Wind Waker

For a moment, Daphnes is tempted by Zelda's idea...

"Yes, of course... We have a ship! We can find it. We WILL find it! The land that will be the next Hyrule!" -Daphnes, The Wind Waker

...but then he recalls the purpose of his decision. His wish is to grant Hyrule a new future of hope and maturity. His participation can only lead to the continuation of the old ways he is trying to leave behind. He smiles at Zelda's innocence, she does not understand what it is that ties Hyrule to its past. Daphnes recognizes that it is this innocence which can build a new future. Originally, it was this innocence that enabled the long peace before the first war. In Zelda, he sees that his wish has already been granted.



"...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!" -Daphnes, The Wind Waker

I know this is kind of a tiny detail, but the Gerudo symbol never shows up among the Twili except for Zant. It seems pretty clear that he wears it in honor of "his god".

^ Zant wears the "Gerudo symbol" before he ever meets Ganondorf.
(watch the cutscene where Zant meets Ganondorf for the first time)

P.S. I am aware that this article is biased and little in it can actually be supported
by evidence. The theoretical connections I make (mostly unprovable) are the
purpose of this article, and I find these possibilities intriguing.

Regardless if it's factual or theoretical, this was very well-written. Good job.

Thank you, I readily admit that most of what I said cannot be considered fact, due
to lack of evidence.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Thank you, I readily admit that most of what I said cannot be considered fact, due
to lack of evidence.

And it's a good thing that you clarified that to avoid unecessary criticism.
While I disagree with you in areas and felt that some of the ideas were a little far'fetched, the philosophy behind it was well thought-out and I can tell you put a lot of work into this.

Just wanted to add this quote to the discussion. It implies that the people
who became the Twili were oppressed by the Hylians. This could only have
happened before they were banished to the Twilight Realm.

Originally Posted by TP Zant

My Midna... Did you forget? That
beast is one of the light dwellers
who oppressed our people.
...
Our tribe will take back their
realm...and sweet darkness will blot
out this harsh light!

My take on this quote is that Zant is speaking of the Western Alliance
who opposed the Hylian royalty. The Western Alliance would've felt
rightfully oppressed that their sovereignty was not recognized.

The interlopers, acting independently of the Western Alliance, took the
matter into their own hands, attempting to establish dominion with the
Fused Shadow, and were banished.

Zant is attempting to justify his wicked goals in Twilight Princess, by
claiming that they are the noble goals of the Western Alliance
(their attempts to regain sovereignty).

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Art1st4786

And it's a good thing that you clarified that to avoid unecessary criticism.
While I disagree with you in areas and felt that some of the ideas were a little far'fetched, the philosophy behind it was well thought-out and I can tell you put a lot of work into this.

One major thing I really want to discuss in this thread is my theory that the Wind Tribe
is originally the same race as the Gerudo.

EDIT2:

And that the Wind Tribe's leaving Hyrule for the skies explains the lack of Gerudo males.

It was an enjoyable read. Very nicley put together. Yet as you admited ofcourse your personal interpretation. But I do not feel like your article tried to pass itself as factual, so there's no propblem.
I don't feel like anything you said actually contradicts something we know about the history of Zelda. But there are alot of stretches...that do make for a nice story though.

Anyway I enjoyed it, it was well written.

I would point out two things none the less.
-I kinda found it a bit strange when you made it sound like japanese people would not find rape offensive. o.o But I guess you didn't intend for it to sound like that.
-Midna herself learns her lesson in the light world. She admits that she started her alliangce with Link to exploit him. It is only through the events of in the light world (mainly Zeldas sacrifice) that she truley learn to care for others. The twilight realm may be peacfull and most likley far more in balance than Hyrule, but it's inhabitants are not free from greed and selfishness. Zant and midna prove this.

Here are the quotes that cover the things I said about Midna

Originally Posted by Midna

In our world, we've long believed that the Hero would appear as a divine beast.
That's why when I found you, I thought I could use you, Link.
And I only cared about returning our world to normal...
I didn't care what happened to the world of light, not at all.
But after witnessing the selfless lengths that Princess Zelda and you have gone
to... Your sacrifices...
I now know, in the bottom of my heart, that I must save this world, too. There
is no other way.

Originally Posted by Midna

Um, listen, Link. Can I ask you one last selfish favor?
Regardless of what my reasons may have been, I once abandoned this world...
I left behind the Twili. Those who had followed me... Who considered me their
ruler...
Even now, as they remain here, suffering, they believe that help will come for
this world...

Originally Posted by bitterlime

...I do not feel like your article tried to pass itself as factual...

I'm glad that came across in the writing.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I don't feel like anything you said actually contradicts something we know about the history of Zelda. But there are alot of stretches...that do make for a nice story though.

I appreciate that, the stretches are what ties it all together as a story
and propose interesting (perhaps false) theories.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

-I kinda found it a bit strange when you made it sound like japanese people would not find rape offensive. o.o But I guess you didn't intend for it to sound like that.

I didn't intend for it to sound like that, I just meant that other countries aren't
as strict about "sexual" content. I heard that there is an RPG that was changed
it the U.S. to remove references to a womb. More the idea that NoA doesn't
want "sex" referenced in their games, not that Japan approves of rape. That
would be a terrible implication. (In short you can't say the word 'rape' without
referencing sex.)

Originally Posted by bitterlime

-Midna herself learns her lesson in the light world. She admits that she started her alliangce with Link to exploit him. It is only through the events of in the light world (mainly Zeldas sacrifice) that she truley learn to care for others. The twilight realm may be peacfull and most likley far more in balance than Hyrule, but it's inhabitants are not free from greed and selfishness. Zant and midna prove this.

In that case, I claim that the lesson she learned in Hyrule is her "second lesson"
Midna does deny Zant the throne due to greed before she becomes an imp. I
was thinking that Zant was a Twili who hasn't matured yet, that is why he
is greedy. Even though I claim the Twili have learned not to be greedy as a
whole, they would still have to teach this lesson to each child as they grow up.
No one is born knowing how to read, likewise, moral lessons must be taught
to be passed on.

EDIT:

"lesson one" - greed
"lesson two" -selfishness

Good article overall. But now to dive into this.

It could be that the Triforce reveals the nature of the goddesses themselves, a reflection, if you will. The opening line of this article reveals the neutrality of the Triforce, its indifference to good and evil. But these terms do not quite grasp what we are aiming for conceptually. The terms 'neutrality' and 'indifference' imply that one has chosen neither good nor evil, instead taking a position that is separate from the two. The goddesses however, are feasibly 'beyond' these notions, they are 'complete' beings, without limitation. Beings with neither flaws, nor admirable traits, beings who exist outside the concept of good and evil. Beings that 'do', not because it is virtuous or dishonorable, but because it 'is'. They exist, and they act for one reason, because that is what they are.

That's false. The godesses can distinguish between good and evil. Hell in TWW's BS they flooded Hyrule so Ganon wouldn't get to it.

And finally, we have the flora and fauna that dwell in the various environments.

Who?

The colors of the symbol on Ganondorf's belt seem not only to represent fire and ice, but the migration of the Gerudo people as well. The horizontal element in the symbol's center could be the two parts of the tribe heading in their separate directions. The red representing the western desert, and the blue indicating the eastern swamp.

The only swamp that's not in the west is in FSA and that's nowhere near the wind tribe.

The Hylian people, you will remember, settled in various parts of the world. Some, perhaps, remained in the west with the Gerudo & Zuna tribes. In theory, when war broke out, the two branches of the Gerudo allied themselves with the Zunas, and the Hylians who dwelt in the area. The symbol taking on its final level of meaning as the symbol of the 'western alliance'.

Meh sounds like fan-fiction.

Zant with the end of Midna, what you get is not far off from 'Zuna'...

Stupid reasoning.

To ensure the seal would remain intact, it was locked shut by the Master Sword, a blade that the sages had infused with the Light Force. Because evil could never touch the blade, the seal would remain protected.

And here's where the theory starts to fall apart. The seal in ALttP is meant to keep evil IN. The seal told of in the prolounged wars is to keep people OUT.

Possessing sole access to the Sacred Realm, Hyrule became a powerful man. His success paved the way to arrogance, which in turn became a consuming lust for power. He began to demand tribute of the surrounding tribes. The finest craftsmen of the south were called on for superior weapons and armor.

The king in TP is not the same one from OoT.

The Gorons were called on for bomb flowers, to clear the newly christened Hyrule Field, and stones to build a castle for Hyrule. The Zoras were asked to supply Hyrule's castle with fresh clean water, and the Deku Tree was tasked with securing the eastern border of Hyrule.

Fan fiction. Plus the King of Hyrule doesn't even know the Kokiri. They're unexistent to the people of Hyrule.

Third, and most astounding of all, he obtained the power of the Triforce without having to even touch it!

You may want to clarify that.

Few could see into the mind of the man Hyrule. To the Gorons, Zora, and the Kokiri, it seemed that they were simply helping to build a strong kingdom that would establish and keep the peace. But the Western Alliance saw only the greed of Hyrule, and viewed his taxation as a blunt attack on thier sovereignty, which for all intents and purposes, it was. The alliance denied all ties to the Kingdom of Hyrule and instead of paying tribute, they became thieves, and stole from the man who they saw as the biggest thief of all; Hyrule.

If the "western alliance" even exists then you're wrong. The Zuna are peaceful and don't mind Hylians.

Making no claims that Gustaf was the first king of Hyrule, this quote shows the ties that existed between the Wind Tribe and the Royal Family:

"Gustaf, Royal Spirit
The spirit of an ancient king of Hyrule...He was very fond of the people of the Wind Tribe." -The Minish Cap

Mazaal, a machine built by the Wind Tribe, bears the half-red, half-blue markings that we saw on Ganondorf's belt in The Wind Waker. A coloration perchance symbolic of the Gerudo and the Wind Tribe's shared history.

Hmm...Works out actually. He doesn't have to be the first king of Hyrule, but he certainly COULD be the man who started the relationship between them and Hyrule.

In The Minish Cap, Mazaal's purpose is to guard the Ocarina of Winds, which helps Link gain access to the Wind Element, a necessity for the salvation of Hyrule. In The Wind Waker, Gohdan's function is to test Link's courage, which gains Link access to the sealed Kingdom of Hyrule and the Master Sword. Given the Wind Tribe's connection to the Hyrulian Royal Family, and the service these machines render in the interest of Hyrule, it could be concluded that both machines were built by the Wind Tribe.

Another thing to look into is how similar the TotG and the toT in TP are. TP's ToT we know was built by the Oocca. So why not the TotG in TWW? If that's the case the Oocca = wind tribe or atleast part of it.

"My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose." -Ganondorf, The Wind Waker

The desert Gerudo had a higher percentage of females, while the swamp Gerudo had a larger proportion of males. When the swamp Gerudo (the Wind Tribe) left for the skies, the male population of the desert Gerudo continued to shrink. The gene pool had grown weaker. More and more females were being born, and less and less males.

While there's no proof for this, the one thing I'm going to ask is this: Do you believe the eastern and western Gerudo were enemies with eachother? It might make sense...punishment once they became the tribe of winds.

Forgive the off-color topic, but theoretically, Vaati forced himself on the Hylian girls, and they bore him children. It is shocking to American standards to think Nintendo would include the element of rape within the Zelda series, but keep in mind that the Zelda series is made in Japan, and as long as Nintendo keeps the details vague, there will never be 'proof' of rape. But take a look at this revealing quote from when Vaati kidnaps Zelda.

Hmmm...there's not much to say here. Zelda isn't pregnent when you rescue her in FS so I'd asume he just wants to rape her not have chldren.

They studied this dark power in order to launch an offensive against Hyrule's empire. If they could only wrest control of the Triforce from the Royal Family's hands, the world would once more be free. The tribes would regain their sovereignty, and be rid of Hyrule's controlling monarchy.

Bull****. (You were waiting for me to say that weren't you? ) The shiekah were very loyal to the family of Hyrule. They executed people in the shadow temple and at the bottom of the well for "the greater good"

Consider some evidence suggesting that the magic of the Shadow Folk, the Sheikah, is based on Vaati's corruption of the Light Force. The Shadow symbol is an upside-down triangle. Yellow is the opposite of Purple on the color wheel. The golden Light Force is presented in The Minish Cap as a yellow triangle.

Seem to just refer to being the shadows of Hylians not Vaati's children.

Generations have passed since the original king of Hyrule was in power. His descendant and namesake now sits on the throne, almost a decade after the fierce war brought on by the Sheikah rebels. The Gerudo tribe seems to have finally come around to accepting Hyrulian authority. Their leader, a bold man named Ganondorf enters the throne room and kneels before Hyrule's newest King, finally swearing allegiance to the King of Hyrule after all these long years.

Looking at this I'm going to have to disagree with this:

The Gorons were called on for bomb flowers, to clear the newly christened Hyrule Field, and stones to build a castle for Hyrule. The Zoras were asked to supply Hyrule's castle with fresh clean water, and the Deku Tree was tasked with securing the eastern border of Hyrule.

The feirce wars unified the races of Hyrule. The zora had a long time relation with the royal family but the gorons did not. So this part of the theory doesn't work.

a man in green (the color of money) can't get the buying fever off his mind.

He's a begger.

Again, we see that mortals choose their perceptions. They choose to accept certain beliefs. The goddesses are not truly concerned with good and evil, they live in a state of mind beyond those trifles. The Triforce itself seems to be what drove the people to war in the first place, in this light, the Triforce could hardly be considered a gift or a blessing from the goddesses, it is entirely possible that the Triforce was an unintentional by-product of the goddesses leaving for another dimension, a piece of waste, like exhaust from a car; albeit a magically powerful piece of waste that bore the imprint of the goddesses character.

As mentioned in the first part of my post:

That's false. The godesses can distinguish between good and evil. Hell in TWW's BS they flooded Hyrule so Ganon wouldn't get to it.

"Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert." -Gerudo, Twilight Princess

There ARE no Gerudo in TP.

I have lived bound to Hyrule. In that sense, I was the same as Ganondorf. But you...I want you to live for the future...you must look forward and walk a path of hope, trusting that it will sustain you when darkness comes...Please...forgive us

You skipped a part. The forgive us is NOT because of Hyrule's greed and hatred, but of the fact that the only world Zelda and Link can have is the one we see in TWW. One with no fish in the sea, holes in people's shoes, no money in their pockets, and the sun shining on their backs.

P.S. I am aware that this article is biased and little in it can actually be supported
by evidence. The theoretical connections I make (mostly unprovable) are the
purpose of this article, and I find these possibilities intriguing.

Okay that's good.

Overall I have to say I found this your best article. True some parts of it are unjustified, but if you find more proof of this I'd re-do this article and submit it to the bombers.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I didn't intend for it to sound like that, I just meant that other countries aren't
as strict about "sexual" content. I heard that there is an RPG that was changed
it the U.S. to remove references to a womb. More the idea that NoA doesn't
want "sex" referenced in their games, not that Japan approves of rape. That
would be a terrible implication. (In short you can't say the word 'rape' without
referencing sex.)

Ah I see.
NoA is touchy about sexuality. Even when it's "harmless". But still, a reference to rape in a child game would be disaproved by NoJ too.

In that case, I claim that the lesson she learned in Hyrule is her "second lesson"
Midna does deny Zant the throne due to greed before she becomes an imp. I
was thinking that Zant was a Twili who hasn't matured yet, that is why he
is greedy. Even though I claim the Twili have learned not to be greedy as a
whole, they would still have to teach this lesson to each child as they grow up.
No one is born knowing how to read, likewise, moral lessons must be taught
to be passed on.

EDIT:

"lesson one" - greed
"lesson two" -selfishness

I'm fine with that. I just felt that the article was not taking Midnas personal evolvment in account.


I just remembered another thing I wanted to say though.
I find it more likley that Mazaal and Godhand were built by the minish, since you can enter mazaal when you are shrink, similar to how you can enter the armos statues. But the Minish and the wind tribe apparently had some kind of connection/interaction anyway.

"[The Triforce] was hidden in a sacred realm beyond the reach of men, but one day...a doorway to that realm was suddenly opened..." -A Link to the Past

The adept magicians of the Hylian race conceivably opened a portal to the Sacred Realm, purely by accident.

Wow. That's pretty close to lying Cukeman. We both know the rest of that quote is "by a group of theives".

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Who?

Flora...aka plant life...and Fauna..aka animals.

The king in TP is not the same one from OoT.

I don't think Cukeman wanted to imply that. He used TP as a example to show that there are tributes made to the monarchy.

Fan fiction. Plus the King of Hyrule doesn't even know the Kokiri. They're unexistent to the people of Hyrule.

I'm not sure if I can fully agree. The Deku tree holds on of the keys to the sacred realm. And I also majory disagree that the Kokiri are unknown to Hyrulians. Tingle recognizes Links clothes as "fairy people cloths" (okay Termina). Malon in OoT also recognizes Link as a "fairy boy". I seem to recall that the same holds true when the 4 Links meet Malon in FSA.
The Hylians seem to be aware that there is a "secret society" in the woods.

If the "western alliance" even exists then you're wrong. The Zuna are peaceful and don't mind Hylians.

In FSA they are...yet their past in that game is shadey. The claim to be the ancestors of the pyramid builders, and they are aware that the pyramid holds an evil power (Trident of Power)

Bull****. (You were waiting for me to say that weren't you? ) The shiekah were very loyal to the family of Hyrule. They executed people in the shadow temple and at the bottom of the well for "the greater good"

Yet what you just said is just as much "bull****". (I'm refering to the exectutions for the greater good)

There ARE no Gerudo in TP.

The quote is from FSA...probably a mess up.

Yet what you just said is just as much "bull****". (I'm refering to the exectutions for the greater good)

The "greater good" is refering to my bombers article silly.

But they did execute people. Period.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

That's false. The godesses can distinguish between good and evil.

I never said that the goddesses can't distunguish between the two - quite the opposite.
I suggested that their lives are not bound by the conventions of good and evil.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Who?

Trees, bushes, octoroks, tektites...

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The only swamp that's not in the west is in FSA and that's nowhere near the wind tribe.

loose vs. strict geography :|

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Stupid reasoning.

Rude and uncalled for. That wasn't my reasoning at all, it was
just an additional connection.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

And here's where the theory starts to fall apart. The seal in ALttP is meant to keep evil IN. The seal told of in the prolounged wars is to keep people OUT.

How many times must I explain my position? The seal in ALttP keeps evil in.
The Temple of Time keeps people out. There is no mention of a seal in TP :|

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The king in TP is not the same one from OoT.

I never said he was, and I never said the OoT King was the first king of Hyrule.
I said that the first king of Hyrule started the tradition of tribute continuing
into OoT and TP :|

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Fan fiction. Plus the King of Hyrule doesn't even know the Kokiri. They're unexistent to the people of Hyrule.

The Kokiri have the Spiritual Stone = royal family connection :|

Originally Posted by Pinecove

You may want to clarify that.

Figure of speech. The seal made his kingdom the dominant political power.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

If the "western alliance" even exists then you're wrong. The Zuna are peaceful and don't mind Hylians.

The Zuna in FSA are peaceful. In my post FSA is after the breakdown of the
Western Alliance :|

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Another thing to look into is how similar the TotG and the toT in TP are. TP's ToT we know was built by the Oocca. So why not the TotG in TWW? If that's the case the Oocca = wind tribe or atleast part of it.

Interesting. Please tell me more. I didn't see any connections between the Tower of the Gods
and the Temple of Time.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

While there's no proof for this, the one thing I'm going to ask is this: Do you believe the eastern and western Gerudo were enemies with eachother? It might make sense...punishment once they became the tribe of winds.

I don't believe they were enemies. I don't claim punishment, I just claim that the Wind
Tribe only provided favorable winds to Hyrule. I think the desert winds were naturally
occuring. Punishment is concievable, but I don't think that's what happened.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Hmmm...there's not much to say here. Zelda isn't pregnent when you rescue her in FS so I'd asume he just wants to rape her not have chldren.

Yes, but I only claim Vaati impregnated women in the FS backstory, it's obvious
that Link rescued Zelda in FS. In the FS backstory though, it says that the rescue
attempts failed.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The shiekah were very loyal to the family of Hyrule. They executed people in the shadow temple and at the bottom of the well for "the greater good"

I don't think you can prove that all the Sheikah were loyal. The Sheikah Tribe dwindled
in the prolonged wars, so I am guessing that in some cases it was Hylians vs. Sheikah.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Seem to just refer to being the shadows of Hylians not Vaati's children.

It implies that something happened to the Hylians to make them shadowy, maybe
it wasn't Vaati, but it was something.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Looking at this I'm going to have to disagree with this:

I didn't mean Ganondorf was an ally, just that he appeared to be.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The feirce wars unified the races of Hyrule. The zora had a long time relation with the royal family but the gorons did not. So this part of the theory doesn't work.

Does the "Spiritual Stone of Fire" or the "Sworn Brother the King" ring a bell?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

He's a begger.

No way. He buys blue fire at a high price. He is BUYING, not begging.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

There ARE no Gerudo in TP.

That was a FSA quote - my bad.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

You skipped a part. The forgive us is NOT because of Hyrule's greed and hatred, but of the fact that the only world Zelda and Link can have is the one we see in TWW. One with no fish in the sea, holes in people's shoes, no money in their pockets, and the sun shining on their backs.

You are right about this. But in the generic sense, all of Hyrule's troubles stem from greed.
It was greed to control the Sacred Realm that caused the first war.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Overall I have to say I found this your best article. True some parts of it are unjustified, but if you find more proof of this I'd re-do this article and submit it to the bombers.

Thank you. Truly kind words. I don't think I'll find much more proof anytime soon.

Interesting. Please tell me more. I didn't see any connections between the Tower of the Gods
and the Temple of Time.

Realy tall.
Weights.
Lasers.
Scales.
Both feature Darknut as miniboss.
Feature same ancient writing.

There's more but I forget at the moment...

I don't think you can prove that all the Sheikah were loyal. The Sheikah Tribe dwindled
in the prolonged wars, so I am guessing that in some cases it was Hylians vs. Sheikah.

No but you made it sound like ALL the shikah were evil.

Because you don't visit their homeland.

You quoted a Gerudo from TP that doesn't exist then?

Thank you. Truly kind words.

You won't hear them again for a long long time.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I find it more likley that Mazaal and Godhand were built by the minish, since you can enter mazaal when you are shrink, similar to how you can enter the armos statues. But the Minish and the wind tribe apparently had some kind of connection/interaction anyway.

Makes sense to me, it's just that MC specifically says Mazaal was built by the Wind Tribe:

Appears in the Palace of Winds.
Constructed by the Wind Tribe to repel
intruders, this sturdy machine cannot
be destroyed by any external force.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Wow. That's pretty close to lying Cukeman. We both know the rest of that quote is "by a group of theives".

I think the group of thieves you quoted is the OoT Gerudo. In OoT the
Gerudo don't make a door to the Sacred Realm, they enter the door OoT
Link opens, thus I think that OoT overrides that manual statement.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

No but you made it sound like ALL the shikah were evil.

How so? I stated that some stayed in Hyrule (loyal allies) and some joined the
Western Alliance.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

You quoted a Gerudo from TP that doesn't exist then?

It was a FSA quote, I typed the wrong game title. I apologize.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

You won't hear them again for a long long time.

I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

One major thing I really want to discuss in this thread is my theory that the Wind Tribe
is originally the same race as the Gerudo.

And that the Wind Tribe's leaving Hyrule for the skies explains the lack of Gerudo males.

No takers?

How do people just dismiss the dark skin/red hair connection?
Plus, their move to the skies would be very helpful if it explains
why there are so few Gerudo males.

I have never understood how the Wind Tribe could be
(or have a connection with) the Oocca. There are a lot of
land races, and several sky races, they don't all have to be
the same just cause they are in the air.

On the wind/sky side we have, Koroks/Kokiri, the wind
symbol of the OoT Forest Temple, the windy Forest Temple
of TP, the Wind Tribe, the Oocca, etc. Seems like there is
a lot of interest in the sky/wind among various tribes IMO.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The "greater good" is refering to my bombers article silly.

But they did execute people. Period.

No that's fan fiction. Give me prove. It's you little theory on why there are torturing devices in the well not fact.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Realy tall.
Weights.
Lasers.
Scales.
Both feature Darknut as miniboss.
Feature same ancient writing.

There's more but I forget at the moment...

-controling statues to procede through the dungeon
-magical appearing transparent stairs

I don't remember scales in the tower of the gods, but it's been a while

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Makes sense to me, it's just that MC specifically says Mazaal was built by the Wind Tribe

Oh, I didn't know the figurine description said this.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

No takers?

How do people just dismiss the dark skin/red hair connection?
Plus, their move to the skies would be very helpful if it explains
why there are so few Gerudo males.

I have never understood how the Wind Tribe could be
(or have a connection with) the Oocca. There are a lot of
land races, and several sky races, they don't all have to be
the same just cause they are in the air.

On the wind/sky side we have, Koroks/Kokiri, the wind
symbol of the OoT Forest Temple, the windy Forest Temple
of TP, the Wind Tribe, the Oocca, etc. Seems like there is
a lot of interest in the sky/wind among various tribes IMO.

The windtribe has a high female rate too though. We only see two males. So I don't think it makes a good explanation for the lack of male Gerudos.

Aditionally the wind tribe has alot more "bubbly/puffy" features. The gerudo are slim and angular. The red hair is also not the typical Gerudo orange red (ALthough in FSA the Gerudo themselves lack this typical orange red hair and have a similar hair colour as the wind tribe. So it might be an issue of graphical limitation)
I can ony see that both tribes were designed to have an arabic vibe. I don't think there is a connection.