Cementing AoL on the CT

Allright first of:
I believe the naming tradition to be outdated, it was a explanation made in the very very early Zelda days to explain why there were 2 persons called Zelda.
I feel that it is outdated by now, since Link and Ganondorf do not need a reason to be constantly named Link and Ganondorf (okay "constantly" might not be the right word for Ganondorf, since there were only 2).
But since this is not the thread for those kind of counterarguments I'll pretend that I do still think the naming tradition as important for now.

Let's have a look at the manual of AoL


Notice how North castle is indeed depicted on high ground, although that was ages ago too and had no relevance back then really. I still thought it would be important to at least mention it.

Actually that's pretty much all I have to say...

The only real input I have in this is that the naming tradition HAS to be pre-tWW. On the CT perhaps one can argue the Princesses we see in game all just so happen to be called Zelda unrelated to any 'legend of~', but on the AT we see Tetra perfectly happy with her name and yet come the time of her transformation her name changes as well.

There have surely been several generations of would-be-princesses by Tetra's time considering the centuries thing, and if it was not decreed that each generation MUST be called Zelda by this time then it wouldn't be necessary to 'hide her name' or what have you from Ganon as they could have legitimately called her Tetra or Doris or Consuela or anything in the world.

Then upon becoming Princess her name is changed as if to say 'this is who you were all along!' massively suggesting that the naming tradition was pre-tWW, if there wasn't this royal decree then why change her name? Why couldn't she just be Princess Tetra the First?

So it must at least be pre tWW on the AT which would likely make it OoT Zelda.

OR you can kill two birds with one stone and place it pre-OoT explaining both timelines namings.

Either way I don't see how this cements it on either timeline- if Zelda's in a magical death-and-age-defying coma I doubt a little matter of a flood would affect her. Besides, AoL certainly seems to be a very islandy and mountainous area. Not only that but it seems ONLY Impa knows about the story of Zelda implying a seriously big event to wipe out the knowledge of this legend.

Originally Posted by River Zora

The only real input I have in this is that the naming tradition HAS to be pre-tWW. On the CT perhaps one can argue the Princesses we see in game all just so happen to be called Zelda unrelated to any 'legend of~', but on the AT we see Tetra perfectly happy with her name and yet come the time of her transformation her name changes as well.

There have surely been several generations of would-be-princesses by Tetra's time considering the centuries thing, and if it was not decreed that each generation MUST be called Zelda by this time then it wouldn't be necessary to 'hide her name' or what have you from Ganon as they could have legitimately called her Tetra or Doris or Consuela or anything in the world.

Then upon becoming Princess her name is changed as if to say 'this is who you were all along!' massively suggesting that the naming tradition was pre-tWW, if there wasn't this royal decree then why change her name? Why couldn't she just be Princess Tetra the First?

So it must at least be pre tWW on the AT which would likely make it OoT Zelda.

OR you can kill two birds with one stone and place it pre-OoT explaining both timelines namings.

Either way I don't see how this cements it on either timeline- if Zelda's in a magical death-and-age-defying coma I doubt a little matter of a flood would affect her. Besides, AoL certainly seems to be a very islandy and mountainous area. Not only that but it seems ONLY Impa knows about the story of Zelda implying a seriously big event to wipe out the knowledge of this legend.

And the Impa is very old, not only the only person who knows about the original Zelda. Considering how old she is and the fact that no one else knows about the Zelda means that she was cast into sleep a very long time ago and a big event happened, pointing towards the whole time that passed between Ocarina of Time and into the post-flood world in The Advetnure of Link.

Heck, with a huge devine twist, one might say the Impa in The Advetnure of Link is the same Impa from Ocarina of Time, and she is taking care of the same Zelda from Ocarina of Time. She is really old, which is interesting.

Unlikely, but I hope Nintendo make that true!

Originally Posted by OP

I would be reluctant to conclude that (1B) is correct, because there is no
evidence that OoT Zelda has an older brother. Furthermore, the prince
in the backstory "could inherit the Triforce only in part", he then "searched
everywhere for the missing parts, but could not find them".

Daphnes is definitely related to the original Princess Zelda, is also the only male royal family member in the entire series to own the Triforce "in part" (his shard of the Triforce of Wisdom), and he additionally could not find the missing Triforce of Courage:

Originally Posted by Daphnes

When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land. Even I do not know where they rest, but this much I do know: they lie hidden somewhere in this Great Sea.

His knowledge of and apparent interest in the Triforce of Courage, and his assertion that "even I do not know where they rest" when taken hand-in-hand seem to imply that he learned about it, but never learned where it had been hidden. I don't think it's a far stretch to say that he also attempted to find it given his other similarities to the Prince.

In (1B) The prince's father (the OoT king) could not have used the Triforce directly, because the Triforce rested in the Sacred Realm at the beginning of Ocarina of Time; then Hyrule Castle and its king were eliminated by Ganondorf.

I'll put it this way:

The Sages serve the Royal Family; the Triforce was in the Temple of Light, in the custody of Rauru, a Sage; when the Composer Brothers researched the powers of the Royal Family, they also tried to study the Triforce; the Triforce is the Royal Family's emblem; even PH refers to the Triforce as the Royal Family's hereditary power (describing Ganondorf's attempt to steal it from Zelda in TWW).

Everything points to a Triforce/Royal Family connection existing in OoT.

The king dying in OoT would only give more of a reason for the Great King to be the OoT king--after he dies, the Triforce is no longer whole and in the custody of the Royal Family's Sages, it is now scattered with only "part" remaining within the family.

Also, I'm not sure if anybody told you, but North Castle is NOT in the Death Mountain area, it is to the north, on high ground (see AoL manual image), on an island in the middle of a lake/small sea.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Not only that but it seems ONLY Impa knows about the story of Zelda implying a seriously big event to wipe out the knowledge of this legend.

Interesting observation!

Originally Posted by Cukey

OoX is rather off-topic, but I believe that OoX revives ALttP Ganon for LoZ/AoL.
(Ganon returns after OoX because Link didn't use Silver Arrows)

NO NO NO NONONONONONO!!!!

OoX CAN NOT come after ALttP on acount of titles. Ganon is Yami no maou in ALttP but he's revived Daimou. OoX has to come after a game where Ganon was a Daimaou.

I also notice a lot of similarities between Daphness and the prince... When Daphness mentions his many regrets and that he is no better than Ganondorf, doesn't it remind you of how the Prince had his sister put to sleep, how he regreted his actions, and then he was never seen again? Just like how Daphness mentions his regrets, compares himself to Ganondorf, and he was in hiding?

The fact that he knew about the Triforce shards and all of that also reminds me of how the prince wanted to inherit the Trifroce. There are other similarities between them, too. And didn't Ganondorf say something about Zelda in The Wind Waker about sleeping that alsmost seemed to reference to sleeping Zelda in The Advetnure of Link? Then Phantom Hourglass came along and, with no suprised, made even more connections to The Advetnure of Link...

:/

And didn't Ganondorf say something about Zelda in The Wind Waker about sleeping that alsmost seemed to reference to sleeping Zelda in The Advetnure of Link?

He can also apparently read her dreams, which would explain why a sleeping spell would have been used in the first place.

And yes, that scene very obviously mimicked AoL.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

NO NO NO NONONONONONO!!!!

OoX CAN NOT come after ALttP on acount of titles. Ganon is Yami no maou in ALttP but he's revived Daimou. OoX has to come after a game where Ganon was a Daimaou.

1. Speak english.
2. Why can't OoX be after ALttP?

Originally Posted by Potent Col

I also notice a lot of similarities between Daphness and the prince... When Daphness mentions his many regrets and that he is no better than Ganondorf, doesn't it remind you of how the Prince had his sister put to sleep, how he regreted his actions, and then he was never seen again? Just like how Daphness mentions his regrets, compares himself to Ganondorf, and he was in hiding?

The fact that he knew about the Triforce shards and all of that also reminds me of how the prince wanted to inherit the Trifroce. There are other similarities between them, too. And didn't Ganondorf say something about Zelda in The Wind Waker about sleeping that alsmost seemed to reference to sleeping Zelda in The Advetnure of Link? Then Phantom Hourglass came along and, with no suprised, made even more connections to The Advetnure of Link...

:/

I have noticed that and thought about it. But why was Tetra named Tetra and not Zelda?

Originally Posted by Twilit_Hylian

1. Speak english.
2. Why can't OoX be after ALttP?

Basicly because Ganon is reffered two with two different titles. Actually let pinecove explain it. I personally think OoX can go after ALttP. The titles are a fixable issue, should they be relevant at all.

I have noticed that and thought about it. But why was Tetra named Tetra and not Zelda?

The game later renames her during her awakeing, that might be used to argue that the naming tradition is established allready. Tetra was named Tetra because she grew up on the great see incognitio. Theire parents might have not seen the need to name her Zelda because the royality and it's traditions had little meaning in the new ocean world", more so they might have seen the name as a threat to their daughters live. And lastley who knows if Tetras parents still were fully aware of their heritage. They have alot of relitcs connected to old Hyrule in their room (Tetras room, which was Tetras mums room before if I'm not mistaken), but Tetra seems to have little actual knowledge what those things mean. And in turn her mother might have allready not known much about their meaning anymore. Who knows...

Originally Posted by bitterlime

The game later renames her during her awakeing, that might be used to argue that the naming tradition is established allready.

Were that the case, why was it forgotten in the first place. I'm sure that someone remembered that every female was supposed to be named Zelda, regardless of why. I doubt that after the flood, the decree was forgotten because the royal family escaped.

Tetra was named Tetra because she grew up on the great see incognitio. Theire parents might have not seen the need to name her Zelda because the royality and it's traditions had little meaning in the new ocean world",

Were that true, that's all the more reason to name her Zelda. To keep the heritage going.

more so they might have seen the name as a threat to their daughters live. And lastley who knows if Tetras parents still were fully aware of their heritage. They have alot of relitcs connected to old Hyrule in their room (Tetras room, which was Tetras mums room before if I'm not mistaken), but Tetra seems to have little actual knowledge what those things mean. And in turn her mother might have allready not known much about their meaning anymore. Who knows...

And if that were true, the heritage would not have returned post Tetra. Because who knows if she took on her role as queen since she didn't want to be known as Zelda. The heritage would not have continued afterTetra because Tetra didn't care for it in the first place. Thusly, it has to happen after Tetra.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Notice how North castle is indeed depicted on high ground, although that was ages ago too and had no relevance back then really. I still thought it would be important to at least mention it.

Actually that's pretty much all I have to say...

Wouldn't that be Hyrule Castle, since Link stayed behind to rebuild?
I got the impression from the manual that North Castle was somewhere
in a secluded spot that Link and Impa traveled to after they discovered
Link's Triforce crest. As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be any cities
that close to North Castle (such as the building Link & Impa are standing
in in that picture). North Castle is more of a small shrine to house Zelda,
so I don't think Link would be near it if he is staying to help rebuild.

Originally Posted by River Zora

The only real input I have in this is that the naming tradition HAS to be pre-tWW. On the CT perhaps one can argue the Princesses we see in game all just so happen to be called Zelda unrelated to any 'legend of~', but on the AT we see Tetra perfectly happy with her name and yet come the time of her transformation her name changes as well.

I think Daphnes referring to Tetra as Zelda when she has no idea what he's talking
about shows that he is the only one who remembers the tradition. What I mean
is that Daphnes symbolizes the past which was washed away when he wished for
the flood; so that the flood breaks away from the traditions of the past (the naming
tradition) in the same way that Daphnes finally lets go of the past by wishing for
the flood.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Either way I don't see how this cements it on either timeline- if Zelda's in a magical death-and-age-defying coma I doubt a little matter of a flood would affect her.

But surely it would affect North Castle, which seems in fine condition in AoL.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

...OoX CAN NOT come after ALttP on acount of titles. Ganon is Yami no maou in ALttP but he's revived Daimou. OoX has to come after a game where Ganon was a Daimaou.

OoX Ganon looks more like ALttP Ganon than any other version of Ganon.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

...with a huge devine twist, one might say the Impa in The Advetnure of Link is the same Impa from Ocarina of Time, and she is taking care of the same Zelda from Ocarina of Time. She is really old, which is interesting.

'From the stand next to the alter where Princess Zelda lay in a deep sleep, Impa
took six crystals and a scroll with the same crest and handed them to Link.
"For generations, my family has been handed down these things...'

The Triforce of Courage has been in the Great Palace since the time the scroll
was written. We also are told that the scroll has been passed down in the Impa
family. The scroll has been passed down for generations; and the ToC has been
in the Great Palace for generations.

On the Adult Timeline, the Triforce of Courage went from the SR to Adult Link,
then it became fragmented, then WW Link restored it. Therefore if AoL follows
WW on the AT, the scroll must have been written AFTER Link recovered the
ToC in the WW. There is no way that the ToC can be placed in the Great Palace
until after The Wind Waker.

Since the scroll would have to be written after The Wind Waker, AoL Impa
cannot be OoT Impa because if she was the only owner of the scroll, it would
not be handed down in her family for generations.

Proof that AoL Impa is not OoT Impa (unless you reject the AoL manual).

There is also the problem that there is no evidence of OoT Zelda having an
older brother.

Because the story is basically unchanged in the 2004 GBA release of AoL
(although it is edited), I have reason to believe that the story is still canon.

The U.S. version of the AoL (GBA) manual implies that the scroll was written
by sleeping Zelda's father. If this is true, then the theory that OoT Zelda is the
sleeping Zelda must be false, because the scroll would have to be written
before the flood, and that means that the Triforce of Courage (hidden in the
Great Palace when the scroll was written) would be in the Great Palace before
the flood, which is a total contradiction.

If the ToC was in the Great Palace before the flood, it had to somehow
leave the Great Palace, become fragmented on the ocean floor, and then
return to the Great Palace after Wind Waker, all while leaving the barrier
of the Great Palace intact the whole time. No way.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Daphnes is definitely related to the original Princess Zelda, is also the only male royal family member in the entire series to own the Triforce "in part" (his shard of the Triforce of Wisdom), and he additionally could not find the missing Triforce of Courage:

His knowledge of and apparent interest in the Triforce of Courage, and his assertion that "even I do not know where they rest" when taken hand-in-hand seem to imply that he learned about it, but never learned where it had been hidden. I don't think it's a far stretch to say that he also attempted to find it given his other similarities to the Prince.

I agree there are strong similarities. But what does this show? Every reunion
between Link-Zelda-Ganon and the Triforce pieces has strong similarities, and
TP and WW take place on different timelines. There are lots of similarities
between every game in the series. The presence of similarities is not a guarantee
that two games are on the same timeline branch.

Now if you can apply these similarities to timeline placement, we can validate
or refute them.

Are you suggesting Daphnes was the prince? (sleeping Zelda's older brother)

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I'll put it this way:

The Sages serve the Royal Family; the Triforce was in the Temple of Light, in the custody of Rauru, a Sage; when the Composer Brothers researched the powers of the Royal Family, they also tried to study the Triforce; the Triforce is the Royal Family's emblem; even PH refers to the Triforce as the Royal Family's hereditary power (describing Ganondorf's attempt to steal it from Zelda in TWW).

Everything points to a Triforce/Royal Family connection existing in OoT.

This would be an indirect use of the Triforce, I was all for a Triforce/Royal Family
connection existing in OoT. This allows the AoL backstory to come before OoT.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The king dying in OoT would only give more of a reason for the Great King to be the OoT king--after he dies, the Triforce is no longer whole and in the custody of the Royal Family's Sages, it is now scattered with only "part" remaining within the family.

I disagree. Daphnes regret is that his kingdom was locked away. This did not
happen until Ganon returned as told in the WW backstory. Daphnes is more
likely the King at the time of Ganon's return.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Also, I'm not sure if anybody told you, but North Castle is NOT in the Death Mountain area

I know it's not touching Death Mountain, but the land the North Castle sits
on is at the elevation of Death Mountain's base.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

it is to the north

NorthEast, actually

Originally Posted by Artemicion

on high ground (see AoL manual image)

High ground? Can you prove that the castle in the AoL manual is the North
Castle? From the map, it looks like North Castle is at the same elevation as
LoZ Hyrule, which is level with the base of Death Mountain.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

on an island in the middle of a lake/small sea.

An inland island, not an ocean island.
This just goes to show that the castle in the AoL manual isn't the North Castle,
since we don't see a body of water around the castle in the manual.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

Phantom Hourglass came along and, with no suprised, made even more connections to The Advetnure of Link...

I have yet to hear conclusive evidence on this issue. I heard there are
Sage graves, but have not heard that they bear the OoT Sages names.
I have heard that the AoL towns are named after the OoT Sages, but
have heard no proof that this can only happen on the Adult Timeline.
In fact it seems very unlikely, since one of the most important shrines
to the Sages (the MS room in WW) was destroyed by the flood. If PH
is a prequel to AoL, why haven't I seen quotes from the game posted
as evidence? PH -> AoL sounds iffy at best from what little info I have so far.
I would really like someone to make a thread about it that goes into detail.
The last thread I read was that Kasuto was a bogus addition to the spanish
version, so I'm understandably hesitant to jump on the PH -> AoL theory
until I hear something more concrete.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

He can also apparently read her dreams, which would explain why a sleeping spell would have been used in the first place.

Because the evil magician planned on reading her mind to find the Triforce
location(s)? It's too bad the sleeping spell made the magician collapse if that
was his plan.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

And yes, that scene very obviously mimicked AoL.

I find that AT games often have an equal and opposite parallel on the CT.

CT: ALttP cataclysm averted by the hero
AT: no hero causes the Great Sea to be created

CT: ALttP Ganon wishes on the Triforce
AT: WW Ganon reunites the Triforce and doesn't get to wish on it

WW Zelda sleeping could be the equal opposite of the Zelda awoken in AoL:

AoL Zelda: Sleeps a long time (generations)
WW Zelda: Sleeps a short time

AoL Zelda: Awoken with the Triforce
WW Zelda: Awoken without the Triforce

And again, mimicry does not guarantee anything.

P.S.

The castle in the AoL manual on high ground mimics the castle on the
ocean floor in the Wind Waker, this suggests that if the two castles are
the same, then the WW castle would not survive the flood for a post-WW
placement of AoL.

Originally Posted by Twilit_Hylian

Were that the case, why was it forgotten in the first place. I'm sure that someone remembered that every female was supposed to be named Zelda, regardless of why. I doubt that after the flood, the decree was forgotten because the royal family escaped.

The hell? What you said makes no sense. Quite in contrary one should ask why someone WOULD remember the naming tradition, if the majority of the old legends and traditions are lost and there is not even a royal family...or a royality at all.
The only one that seems to remember is Daphnes.

Were that true, that's all the more reason to name her Zelda. To keep the heritage going.

How about no. Are oyu listening to what you are saying?

And if that were true, the heritage would not have returned post Tetra. Because who knows if she took on her role as queen since she didn't want to be known as Zelda. The heritage would not have continued afterTetra because Tetra didn't care for it in the first place. Thusly, it has to happen after Tetra.

I don't necisariely agree. I don't mind the whole naming traditon to be a post flood occurance. I don't give a ***** about the naing tradition anyway to be honest since AoLs backstory and it's "naming tradition" explanation thing are outdated imo.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Wouldn't that be Hyrule Castle, since Link stayed behind to rebuild?
I got the impression from the manual that North Castle was somewhere
in a secluded spot that Link and Impa traveled to after they discovered
Link's Triforce crest. As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be any cities
that close to North Castle (such as the building Link & Impa are standing
in in that picture). North Castle is more of a small shrine to house Zelda,
so I don't think Link would be near it if he is staying to help rebuild.

I'm not sure...but north Castle is the only castle mentioned really. So there is no reason to assume it's not north castle. Actually I was under the impression that there is no Hyrule castle in AoL and that north castle is "hyrule castle" in AoL and LoZ.
North castle is more than a little shrine, in game we are only shown the small room where Zelda was put to rest.

^ In LoZ Link's whole adventure takes place in the LoZ map, with no other map
yet created, isn't it logical to assume that Zelda and Impa originally lived somewhere
in the LoZ map?

Likewise, doesn't it make sense that Hyrule Castle was ruined when Ganon
burst in and took the Triforce of Power? Ganon took Zelda to his Death
Mountain hideout, instead of keeping her in a "Hyrule Castle he had taken
over". This sounds like Hyrule Castle had been laid to waste to me.

If Ganon ruined Hyrule Castle it would makes sense as an explanation for
Link helping to rebuild.

What about the lack of water around the castle in the manual pictures?
And how do we know how large North Castle is?

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I agree there are strong similarities. But what does this show? Every reunion between Link-Zelda-Ganon and the Triforce pieces has strong similarities, and TP and WW take place on different timelines. There are lots of similarities between every game in the series. The presence of similarities is not a guarantee that two games are on the same timeline branch.

1) Wrong, only TWW's reunion results in the Triforce itself reuniting to be wished upon, so they're not that similar.

2) I never said the presence of similarities was a guarantee that two games are on the same timeline branch; I said the similarities here were strong enough to consider Daphnes perhaps the Prince of the AoL story.

Are you suggesting Daphnes was the prince? (sleeping Zelda's older brother)

Yes.

This would be an indirect use of the Triforce, I was all for a Triforce/Royal Family connection existing in OoT. This allows the AoL backstory to come before OoT.

The AoL manual does not specify how the Great King used the Triforce.
And yes, I'd agree that this allows for the AoL backstory to come before OoT; however, the only pre-OoT king who we can objectively conclude ever maintained peace in Hyrule was OoT's king himself, who was the one to finally unite the kingdom.

I disagree. Daphnes regret is that his kingdom was locked away. This did not happen until Ganon returned as told in the WW backstory. Daphnes is more likely the King at the time of Ganon's return.

This has nothing to do with what you responded to.

I know it's not touching Death Mountain, but the land the North Castle sits on is at the elevation of Death Mountain's base.

Explain?

NorthEast, actually

More or less due north, actually.

High ground? Can you prove that the castle in the AoL manual is the North Castle?

We were never told about another castle?

An inland island, not an ocean island.
This just goes to show that the castle in the AoL manual isn't the North Castle, since we don't see a body of water around the castle in the manual.

We don't see anything around the castle in the manual - because it's on high ground.

I have yet to hear conclusive evidence on this issue. I heard there are
Sage graves, but have not heard that they bear the OoT Sages names.
I have heard that the AoL towns are named after the OoT Sages, but
have heard no proof that this can only happen on the Adult Timeline.

The AoL towns were named after the "Imprisoning War" Sages, and that's definitely not true if AoL is on the Child Timeline and the war never happened on that timeline.

In fact it seems very unlikely, since one of the most important shrines to the Sages (the MS room in WW) was destroyed by the flood.

Because the evil magician planned on reading her mind to find the Triforce location(s)? It's too bad the sleeping spell made the magician collapse if that was his plan.

A reason for the collapse was not given.

Regarding this AoL discussion:

*First off, the scroll in AoL which explained how to unite and directly use the Triforce was written for the coming of a second Great King. Because of this, the first Great King presumably used the complete Triforce directly.

*The AoL manual also states that the Iron Knuckles were put into the palaces by "the king". The Great King is the only character in AoL's backstory constantly referred to as king; even when the Prince took over, the story still called him the Prince instead of a king. Thus, the Great King put the enemies in the palaces and hid the Triforce of Courage, making him the scroll writer.

*There is no proof that OoT Zelda had a brother at all, not to mention that any potential siblings would have probably died thanks to Ganondorf's invasion and his reign.

*Though Daphnes is seen with part of the Triforce, he could easily be a descendent of OoT Zelda seeing as how generations passed between OoT and TWW's backstory, meaning that he simply inherited it.

*When Daphnes stated that he regretted the past, he probably meant that he regretted failing to save his people from Ganon's second invasion. There is no proof that he was the AoL prince.

*In OoX, Link clearly doesn't have the Triforce; if anything, he's being bossed around by it. A Japanese translation of the Deku Tree's post-dungeon speech in OoT reveals that the Triforce was meant to balance the Reasons of the world; in OoX, the Seasons and Time count as Reasons. Thus the Triforce was merely balancing things out for a short time instead of giving anyone some sort of eternal providence. Therefore, no ruler could have "indirectly" used the Triforce.

Just wanted to point this out.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) Wrong...
I never said the presence of similarities was a guarantee that two games are on the same timeline branch

Uh... wrong about WHAT? We both agree that "the presence of similarities"
isn't "a guarantee that two games are on the same timeline branch"

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The AoL manual does not specify how the Great King used the Triforce.
And yes, I'd agree that this allows for the AoL backstory to come before OoT; however, the only pre-OoT king who we can objectively conclude ever maintained peace in Hyrule was OoT's king himself, who was the one to finally unite the kingdom.

It is commonly known that there was unrest before OoT, but that doesn't mean
there were no periods of peaceful rule before OoT.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

This has nothing to do with what you responded to.

Are you joking? If Daphnes was king during Ganon's return he can't be the
OoT King...

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Explain?

The land North Castle is on is below the Death Mountain that both maps
share...

Originally Posted by Artemicion

More or less due north, actually.

*Sigh* Look at the maps, if you go straight North you will find North Castle to
the East.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

We were never told about another castle?

We were never told that North Castle was attacked either, so how
do you account for Link helping to rebuild it?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

We don't see anything around the castle in the manual - because it's on high ground.

So how do you claim it's surrounded by water?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The AoL towns were named after the "Imprisoning War" Sages, and that's definitely not true if AoL is on the Child Timeline and the war never happened on that timeline.

Pass. We have no proof that AoL towns aren't on the CT. Only conjecture.
Sure there is no evidence of the OoT Sages' lives on the CT, but that only
goes to show that you don't know jack about it. Big whoop - proclaim your
ignorance.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

A reason for the collapse was not given.

Amen brother! That is why I was asking if this was the reason.
(I am not the one who claimed the sleeping spell of the AoL backstory
was related to WWGanondorf reading sleeping WW Zelda's mind)

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Regarding this AoL discussion:

*First off, the scroll in AoL which explained how to unite and directly use the Triforce was written for the coming of a second Great King. Because of this, the first Great King presumably used the complete Triforce directly.

*The AoL manual also states that the Iron Knuckles were put into the palaces by "the king". The Great King is the only character in AoL's backstory constantly referred to as king; even when the Prince took over, the story still called him the Prince instead of a king. Thus, the Great King put the enemies in the palaces and hid the Triforce of Courage, making him the scroll writer.

^ Meaning that OoT Zelda is not AoL backstory Zelda.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

*There is no proof that OoT Zelda had a brother at all, not to mention that any potential siblings would have probably died thanks to Ganondorf's invasion and his reign.

*Though Daphnes is seen with part of the Triforce, he could easily be a descendent of OoT Zelda seeing as how generations passed between OoT and TWW's backstory, meaning that he simply inherited it.

*When Daphnes stated that he regretted the past, he probably meant that he regretted failing to save his people from Ganon's second invasion. There is no proof that he was the AoL prince.

*In OoX, Link clearly doesn't have the Triforce; if anything, he's being bossed around by it.

All granted.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Therefore, no ruler could have "indirectly" used the Triforce.

How do you come to this conclusion? What you stated only shows that there
was no 'direct' use.

Cukeman: Phantom Hourglass is part of the Advetnure of Link's overworld unflooding - yes, the game does see you unflood one of the islands - overworld. It shows the much smaller Maze Island in the top-right, while the Advetnure of Link shows the now large Maze Island in the top-right connecting to other land.

And don't you ever look? The Advetnure of Link's Hyrule in a bunch of islands connecting to each other and water from left to right.

The surrounding of North Castle in just like the surrounding of The Wind Waker's Hyrule Castle, too. The fact that the Triforce of Wisdom was split into eight pieces and the two others were practically hidden during the SNES games mimics The Wind Waker: the Triforce of Courage was split into eight pieces and Wisdowm was hidden for the mst part, I believe.

The fact that the state of the Triforce is split and hidden in the SNES games notes the fact that it dissapeared after The Wind Waker: it was probably hidden.

Daphness' wish on the Trifroce and knowledge of it might remind you of the king in The Adventure of Link backstory, too.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

Cukeman: Phantom Hourglass is part of the Advetnure of Link's overworld unflooding - yes, the game does see you unflood one of the islands - overworld. It shows the much smaller Maze Island in the top-right, while the Advetnure of Link shows the now large Maze Island in the top-right connecting to other land.

I don't clearly understand this post. Are you saying Maze Island is unflooded?
If that's true, that is good evidence that Maze Island and North Castle are
on the same elevation, but that means it is also true that both areas would
be damaged by the flood, which is not the case in AoL.

Even if North Castle and Maze Island miraculously survived the flood unscathed,
then you still have the problem that everything in PH was undone at the end.
So how can we tell if those areas will be 'unflooded' again?

Originally Posted by Potent Col

And don't you ever look? The Advetnure of Link's Hyrule in a bunch of islands connecting to each other and water from left to right.

The island with the Great Palace is "the largest island in Hyrule" therefore
the larger land mass (which has North Castle) is a continent which may or
may not be surrounded by ocean. Despite your claims that LoZ/AoL
Hyrule is on a series of islands, there is no evidence of a western or northern
coastline in LoZ/AoL.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

The surrounding of North Castle in just like the surrounding of The Wind Waker's Hyrule Castle, too.

Yes, I pointed this out. Which only proves that if North Castle = WW's
Hyrule Castle, North Castle would not survive the flood.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

The fact that the Triforce of Wisdom was split into eight pieces and the two others were practically hidden during the SNES games mimics The Wind Waker: the Triforce of Courage was split into eight pieces and Wisdom was hidden for the most part, I believe.

The fact that the state of the Triforce is split and hidden in the SNES games notes the fact that it dissapeared after The Wind Waker: it was probably hidden.

I think you mean NES not SNES.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

Daphness' wish on the Trifroce and knowledge of it might remind you of the king in The Adventure of Link backstory, too.

A lot of what you mentioned does remind me of other games. But in
such a nostalgia-heavy series, it is not familiarity that gives us clues about
placement, it is how we interpret these familiar elements. Mimicry and
similarities don't mean very much on their own. If we take a stance on
their meaning, then we can debate them.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

^ In LoZ Link's whole adventure takes place in the LoZ map, with no other map
yet created, isn't it logical to assume that Zelda and Impa originally lived somewhere in the LoZ map?

No, it was even unlikley at the time of LoZ release since the Loz map had no castle, let alone much population. It was always more fitting to assume that those things are off map.
And after the release of AoL it was pretty obvious where Impa and Zelda came from.

Likewise, doesn't it make sense that Hyrule Castle was ruined when Ganon
burst in and took the Triforce of Power? Ganon took Zelda to his Death
Mountain hideout, instead of keeping her in a "Hyrule Castle he had taken
over". This sounds like Hyrule Castle had been laid to waste to me.

No it makes no sense...Ganon never destroyed Hyrule castle when he took over it. In fact we don't even know if he took it over. All that is said in LoZ is that he stole the ToP and kidnapped the princess.
I'll go with north castle being "Hyrule castle" rather than assuming that there is a hyrule castle we never see.

If Ganon ruined Hyrule Castle it would makes sense as an explanation for
Link helping to rebuild.

Yet such an explanation is not needed since the manual referes to damage spread over Hyrule, and the picture shows the destruction of a village.

What about the lack of water around the castle in the manual pictures?

We never see it from far away enough to see it's base.The area where the water would be is not visible.

And how do we know how large North Castle is?

Because there has to be more to the building. Especially since Impa leads Link to the specific "door that does not open".

I also noticed that I should have shown this picture instead, as it is more obvious here that north castle is depicted.



It shows Link leaving for his adventure. From where does he leave? Where does he start in game? North castle.

Cukeman: Hyryle Castle was protected by a seal when Hyrule was under water! Maze Island is and island, what else is there to it?

In Phantom Hourglass, it is small; in the Advetnure of Link is is big and connected to another island, showing: expanding landmass and connecting islands.

The Adventure of Link's overoworld is basically ravaged landscape, expanding islands, water, and don't you find it suspcious... that is appears as if the land is new? The Advetnure of Link's Hyrule is basically new when you look at it, and made up of islands. You fail to notice how extremely post-flood orinentated the Advetnure of Link is.

Spirit Tracks will certainly prove your wrong about placing it on the chuld timeline. Just looking at the overworld in Spirit Tracks, I can tell it is set in The Advetnure of Link's Hyrule. Heck, the castle seen in the game looks like it might be northern castle.