Master Sword Grove vs. Lost Master Sword- A Link to the Past Placment Debate!

There is a growing infamous, nutorious small fan theroy that the Master Sword was recoved after The Wind Waker at some point as an excuse for A Link to the Past to all on the adult timeline. Sure, this would be supportable somewhat back in the day... until Twilight Princess...



What happened in The Wind Waker? The Master Sword was stuck in Ganon dorf's head, and left with him, Hyrule was then flooded, burrying both Ganondorf and the Master Sword benath the sea. Forever. Link and Tetra then sailed to find a new land and start a new begining away from all elements of old Hyrule that were lost with the flood, aside from the Triroce... which just... dissapeared.

So let's set this straight:

The Master Sword was lost
The Trifroce dissapeared
Old Hyrule was destroyed, along with its elements
Post-flood clothing tradition


On the child timeline:

The Master Sword was left in a grove
Ganon lost his Trifroce piece, Link and Zelda were not seen with theirs in the creidts
Hyrule just went on with its old traditional elements
Hylians becoming less, humans becoming more
Hylians start dressing a certain tradition

In A Link to the Past:
The Master Sword was foud in the grove (ruins mentioned in manual)
The Trifroce was unified and in the Sacred Realm
Hyrule used only old, traditional elements
Few Hylians, more humans
The way the characaters dress is exactly how they begin to dress in Twilight Princess


Something else got my mind- the very last thing we see in Twilight Princess is this:




What's that? Well, the very last thing seen in Twilight Princess - on 'The End' bit - is a large statue of a unfiied Trifroce with the three goddesses surrounded it. Why, out of all things, show a statue the the unidied Trifroce as the very last thing in Twilight Princess?

It reminds me of...




In the A Link to the Past creidts, it shows a the unified Trifroce. In the Twilight Princess very last thing you see, it shows you a statue of the Trifroce unified, and Ganondorf lost Power, Link and Zelda couldn't be seen with the Trifroce markings on their hand in the creidts whatsoever. The fact that, of all things to show, the last thing they show is that statue seems suspicious in many senses. The Trifroce unified, and the Goddesses holding it as a reference to the Sacred Realm.

Spirit Tracks, though we know little about it, in 100 years after Phantom Hourglass. How do you put A Link to the Past there? The Master Sword was lost and a new Hyrule was founded 100 years later. There were also quotes in A Link to the Past that say the Master Sword in the grove is not new- there goes the new sword theroy. It is refered to as ancient, and that it has been used before and left in the grove since it was last used - Twilight Princess Link left it in the grove ater he used it, centuries then passed.

The Wind Waker was about moving on, not going back. The only thing that I could see returning to New Hyrule is the Triforce (it makes a cameo in Phantom Hourglass, at that) and maybe Ganon's essence. But over everything, New Hyrule is a fresh start- no Master Sword, ect..

In the end, it is developer intent: they got rid of the Master Sword on the adult timeline, they left it in a grove on the child timeline. Now why would they do that?

There was mention- The Wind Waker severed A Link to the Past's connection to Ocarina of Time. Twilight Princess appears to fix that connection by being the bridge between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, explaining how the Master Sword ended up in the grove, among other things. The Wind Waker, on the adult timeline, was getting rid of old Hyrule elements.

Ganon was removed from A Link to the Past's backstory, too. This, indeed, severs A Link to the Past from the adult timeline even more. In fact, the events of A Link to the Past's backstory now relate to something else: the Inteloper War spoken of in none other than Twilight Princess.

So in the end, it's your choice- Lost Master Sword and fanfic excuse of 'it was recovered, despite the fact that they left it all behind and a century passed', or 'The Master Sword was left in the grove, so where will the next hero find it? In the grove!'

Make your choice- stupidity and 'recovery' excuse (adult timeline placment) or the logical fact that it was let and found in the grove. (child timeline placment).

And nowhere, is they any tiny bit in the any game where it arises the possibility that the Master Sword could be recovered. Using logic- it was lost at sea, left behind, Link and Zelda were the only two living beings that knew about it. What did they do? Let it forever, and then it was lost when Hyrule completely flooded over. They found their new land at some point, and one century passed (Spirit Tracks). In short- the Master Sword is good an gone on the adult timeline. But, some people are too slow to realize the developer intent.

Haven't you heard Potent Col?
Evidence no longer matters.
We just sit and wait to see if the almighty Demo and SVB decide
whether or not they personally like a theory...

:|

ALTTP is Aunoma fav. game.

GAME OVER

Yes, but the Master Sword's placement could be considered a nod to ALttP. Aonuma even mentioned it was his favorite Zelda game during the development of TP. The Triforce disappearing in TWW actually could lead into ALttP. It could've gone to the SR, Four Swords trilogy happens with no mention of it, then ALttP has it conveniently in the SR. This post basically shows my bias, but yeah.

Also, those 'ruins' you speak of were just an invention of NoA back then. They are not mentioned whatsoever in the Japanese version.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

Yes, but the Master Sword's placement could be considered a nod to ALttP. Aonuma even mentioned it was his favorite Zelda game during the development of TP. The Triforce disappearing in TWW actually could lead into ALttP. It could've gone to the SR, Four Swords trilogy happens with no mention of it, then ALttP has it conveniently in the SR. This post basically shows my bias, but yeah.

Also, those 'ruins' you speak of were just an invention of NoA back then. They are not mentioned whatsoever in the Japanese version.

The Master Sword was originally supposed to appear in our Swords Advetnures, apparantly. And you ignore what I said- The Wind Waker was about leaving old Hyrule elements behind, not bringing them back. Spirit Tracks urther indicates this- no Master Sword, trains, new world, ect..

Originally Posted by Potent Col

The Master Sword was originally supposed to appear in our Swords Advetnures, apparantly. And you ignore what I said- The Wind Waker was about leaving old Hyrule elements behind, not bringing them back. Spirit Tracks urther indicates this- no Master Sword, trains, new world, ect..

I ignored what you said, because I'm really lazy right now. I'll eventually respond to the rest of it. Also, you have absolutely no idea about Spirit Tracks, none of us do; it's too early to say if the Master Sword is in it. Unless, of course, you are actually one of the developers...

The Master Sword's purpose in OoT and in ALttP have different appearances, and "roles". I believe that the Master Sword can be remade, unlike the Triforce, which has an inconsistancy if you go TP-ALttP.

This makes a lot of sense. We all have to keep in mind that major nods, which many of these are, should be more notable then small details when timeline theorizing, as the developers must focus much more on nods than smaller details.

However, I see what you're saying about the Triforce at the end of TP, but there have been other games that show it at the end. Most notably, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess's parallel.



I feel it is more a mode of symbolism to the game than a nod toward much else.

The Wind Waker showed the synbol smacked onto the screen as a traditional Zelda synbol, the at Twilight Princess' it shows a huge in-game statue of the unfied Trifroce surrounded by the three goddesses. Right at the end of the game. I see this an an in-game hint at the very end of the creidts that the Trifroce was unifed. And where else would Power go ater Ganondorf's lost it then none other than the Sacred Realm? That's the next best placxe it would be once it left him, and I think that even happening would mean that the other two pieces would have to go, too. Basically- the Goddesses unifying the whole Trifroce now that Power is free, which is synbolized by the large statue at the end.

Ah- the location of the unfied Trifroce statue and the Goddess around it also mimics another thing in A Link to the Past: the unified Trifroce statue is in Hyrule Castle tower, exactly where the unfied Trifroce is during A Link to the Past: the parallel of Hyrule Castle's tower.

And again- people, you all seem to forget that The Wind Waker is about moving on and leaving old Hyrule behind, not going back! The Wind Waker was marking the era where there is no Master Sword, no three elements, no old Hyrule, ect.. The Wind Waker marked the leaving of old Hyrule and the advanment of technology, which completely contradicts everything in A Link to the Past, the very old Hyrule-based game.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

The Wind Waker showed the synbol smacked onto the screen as a traditional Zelda synbol, the at Twilight Princess' it shows a huge in-game statue of the unfied Trifroce surrounded by the three goddesses. Right at the end of the game. I see this an an in-game hint at the very end of the creidts that the Trifroce was unifed. And where else would Power go ater Ganondorf's lost it then none other than the Sacred Realm? That's the next best placxe it would be once it left him, and I think that even happening would mean that the other two pieces would have to go, too. Basically- the Goddesses unifying the whole Trifroce now that Power is free, which is synbolized by the large statue at the end.

What happens to the other two pieces of the Triforce at the end of TP is completely uncertain. According to my theory as to how the Triforce pieces function, however, upon a holders death it leaves their body, remaining dormant until the next person meant to hold it is born. Therefore, the Triforce would not be unified until TP Link and TP Zelda have passed away. However, this does not change the fact that the Triforce does reunite between Twilight Princess and whatever follows. I'm just saying that I doubt it was completely together at the end of Twilight Princess.

The Wind Waker showed the synbol smacked onto the screen as a traditional Zelda synbol, the at Twilight Princess' it shows a huge in-game statue of the unfied Trifroce surrounded by the three goddesses. Right at the end of the game. I see this an an in-game hint at the very end of the creidts that the Trifroce was unifed. And where else would Power go ater Ganondorf's lost it then none other than the Sacred Realm? That's the next best placxe it would be once it left him, and I think that even happening would mean that the other two pieces would have to go, too. Basically- the Goddesses unifying the whole Trifroce now that Power is free, which is synbolized by the large statue at the end.

What's the difference, it being an image or an ingame statue? As for Ganondorf dying and his ToP, where did it go in LoZ? In ALttP? Thos are the only other games when Ganon(dorf) dies with the Triforce Piece(s) in his posession, and they go into posession of his slayer, Link. Why can't it happen in TP? Why would they just randomly leave Link and Zelda?

Ah- the location of the unfied Trifroce statue and the Goddess around it also mimics another thing in A Link to the Past: the unified Trifroce statue is in Hyrule Castle tower, exactly where the unfied Trifroce is during A Link to the Past: the parallel of Hyrule Castle's tower.

...the unified Triforce is in a room behind Ganon's chamber in the Dark World in ALttP. I think you are confusing Triforce monuments and the actual thing itself.

And again- people, you all seem to forget that The Wind Waker is about moving on and leaving old Hyrule behind, not going back! The Wind Waker was marking the era where there is no Master Sword, no three elements, no old Hyrule, ect.. The Wind Waker marked the leaving of old Hyrule and the advanment of technology, which completely contradicts everything in A Link to the Past, the very old Hyrule-based game.

I try not to judge games based on their technology, who knows just WHAT Hylians and beings of Hyrule can come up with when they have magic and whatnot? Don't think too much into technology. And you are right, WW IS about moving on. I won't argue with this.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

Also, those 'ruins' you speak of were just an invention of NoA back then. They are not mentioned whatsoever in the Japanese version.

Originally Posted by PotentCol

The Master Sword was foud in the grove
Hyrule used only old, traditional elements
Few Hylians, more humans
The way the characaters dress is exactly how they begin to dress in Twilight Princess

Care to address the other points he mentioned, or are you just going to ignore them because it's convenient for you, Jarsh?

Originally Posted by Link92

Care to address the other points he mentioned, or are you just going to ignore them because it's convenient for you, Jarsh?

Yep.

Some people are just such tools. Wheter or not ALTTP is Aonumas favorite game is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what the game shows us, and Aonuma has stated that he intends bring the timeline to light. Do you really think Aonuma would bring in HUGE references to ALTTP, only to mess up the timeline even more by having ALTTP not come after TP? Even if Aonuma has a slight bias towards ALTTP, it doesn't matter if he doing it with the timeline in mind, which he has always seem to have, as he is constantly talking about it.

People who base their timeline on old intent over new intent are the one who will end up in a slump, as it's the new intent that controls the timeline.

Originally Posted by Nerushi

Some people are just such tools. Wheter or not ALTTP is Aonumas favorite game is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what the game shows us, and Aonuma has stated that he intends bring the timeline to light. Do you really think Aonuma would bring in HUGE references to ALTTP, only to mess up the timeline even more by having ALTTP not come after TP? Even if Aonuma has a slight bias towards ALTTP, it doesn't matter if he doing it with the timeline in mind, which he has always seem to have, as he is constantly talking about it.

People who base their timeline on old intent over new intent are the one who will end up in a slump, as it's the new intent that controls the timeline.

You see, the thing is it's because the new intent is debatable, whereas the old intent is more set in stone, it leaves a feeling of security. We can't all be tools for thinking differently.

TP don't connect ALLTP with OOT-MM-TP, Aunoma just make some cameos of his fav. game.

GAME OVER.

The old intent is before the timeline came into business, when there was one timeline, a few games, and no split. Now, the new intent is in an age when the developers have been talking about the timeline intention and changing things from the old intent, such as changing the backstory of A Link to the Past and making it connect to Twilight Princess even further.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

Yep.

Alright fine, I'll answer some of it, I guess.

1. Yes, the Master Sword is found in the grove, but not even near where it would be found in ALttP. I think it's more important to point out that there's a readily-available Master Sword in the CT rather than its location.

2. What elements? Wouldn't the Great Sea have the same elements since they were literally descendants of old Hyrule civilians?

3. The same thing happened in TWW. That's why we see Ganondorf trying to capture young maidens with pointed ears that are more pointed than anyone else's, which would imply a weakening of the Hylian blood among the people of the Great Sea.

4.What? Seriously, I don't see it. Seems like typical Zelda fare.

All in all, the first point was the best one.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

The old intent is before the timeline came into business, when there was one timeline, a few games, and no split. Now, the new intent is in an age when the developers have been talking about the timeline intention and changing things from the old intent, such as changing the backstory of A Link to the Past and making it connect to Twilight Princess even further.

I wasn't aware there was a clear separation of old and new. The 2D games happening on either the CT or AT isn't set in stone, so I don't see why we're assuming new intent is that they're on the CT.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

TP don't connect ALLTP with OOT-MM-TP, Aunoma just make some cameos of his fav. game.

GAME OVER.

The Master Sword's grove appearance is a huge storyline element in both Twilight Princess and A Link to the Past. The Master Sword's flood demise on the adult timeline of The Wind Waker is part os the storyline. Timelines are supposed to follow storyline elements and refernece.

GAME OVER

Originally Posted by Jarsh

1. Yes, the Master Sword is found in the grove, but not even near where it would be found in ALttP. I think it's more important to point out that there's a readily-available Master Sword in the CT rather than its location.

You're going to use ALTTP's geography placement as timeline evidence? The game was released in 1992. ALTTP's geography means nothing anymore. For all we know, TP's Kingdom of Hyrule could have moved southeast of the Sacred Grove during the hundreds of years after TP. So by the time of ALTTP, the Sacred Grove is now in the northwest. They didn't have geography of later games in mind when they made ALTTP. ALTTP's Lost Woods are the same as TP's Sacred Grove. The Master Sword's location confirms this.

TP don't connect ALLTP with OOT-MM-TP, Aunoma just make some cameos of his fav. game.

GAME OVER.

Oh, shut up. Game not over. And if Aonuma makes cameos of his favorite game in a newer game, that's still a blatant timeline connection. He wouldn't have made said cameos if they were unimportant.