Sacred Grove Ruins = OoT's Forest Temple?

Okay, we know Hyrule did not move north after Ocarina of Time. Hyrule Castle Town was not left behind to be overgrown by forests. Ocarina's geography is far too similar to TP's geography for that to be true. Also, if they really did move north, they had to find a brand new Kakariko Village, Zora's River, Death Mountain, Gerudo Desert, and Lake Hylia all in the exact same places they were in during Ocarina of Time. In Twilight Princess, Kakariko and Death Mountain are still in the east, and Gerudo Desert and Lake Hylia are still in the west. Hyrule did not move north.

So what happened to the Temple of Time? It's virtually the only geographic feature that has drastically changed location between OoT and TP. The forest now being in the south could simply be due to a slight geographic shift. This would explain the huge chasm between Ordon and the Faron Woods as well as the fact that, by the time of TP, there appear to be unreachable forest areas everywhere.

If Hyrule really did move north and leave the Temple of Time behind, why is Lake Hylia suddenly north of the Temple in TP? These are all the same locations from OoT. So what are the ruined buildings next to the Temple of Time's ruins in the Sacred Grove? They couldn't be OoT's Castle Town, because Castle Town is right where it should be by the time of TP and is obviously the same town, but expanded. So could the ruined buildings be the remains of OoT's Forest Temple?

OoT's Forest Temple is not the same one we see in TP. TP's Forest Temple is inside two large trees, one directly behind the other, a description that fully fits the Deku Tree Sprout and the Great Deku Tree. And TP's Forest Temple is right next to the poisoned, foggy remains of what is likely Kokiri Forest, because of the broken buildings and wooden bridges.

OoT's Forest Temple, on the other hand, is a large stone building. Was the Temple of Time rebuilt next to OoT's Forest Temple? This could explain why the Sacred Grove has its name; it could be part of the Sacred Forest Meadow. Remember that both the Sacred Forest Meadow and the Lost Woods were one big maze. This description can also be applied to the Sacred Grove.

After child Link returned to the past at the end of OoT, it was stated by Aonuma that he and Zelda simply left Ganondorf alone, and he "did something outrageous." Did he attack the Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle Town? This would explain the Temple of Time being in ruins and Hyrule Castle Town being much closer to Hyrule Castle by the time of TP. Castle Town was rebuilt and expanded to being closer to the Castle while the Temple of Time was moved. This doesn't explain, however, OoT Link's hero status by the time of TP, where the story of the ancient hero is very well known. We know he did some heroics after returning from Termina, because he gave the Gorons the Hero's Bow and the Gorons call Link "brother" in TP, a name they only gave to Link after he cleared Dodongo's Cavern. But Link probably didn't achieve heroic status from Ganondorf's imprisonment.

But who moved or rebuilt the Temple of Time in the Sacred Grove, and why did they do it? Are the ruined buildings around the Temple of Time the remains of OoTs Forest Temple? Discuss.

Well, technically the Temple of Time wasn't built in the Sacred Grove. You open a stone door, that has a portal leading to the Temple of Time. Not sure if that changes anything, as I'm not a theorist, but that's what I think.

Just a small point, I am unsure the Goron's use of the 'brother' term is relevant. As I understand it, it is a term used casually among themselves anyway. Perhaps there is some quote from Twilight Princess I am unaware of?

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

Just a small point, I am unsure the Goron's use of the 'brother' term is relevant. As I understand it, it is a term used casually among themselves anyway. Perhaps there is some quote from Twilight Princess I am unaware of?

Yes, but Link is the only Hylian shown to be called brother by the Gorons in both games. And for the Gorons to have the Hero's Bow that Link obtained in Termina, they must have met him, even on the child timeline. Maybe they recognize the Hero's Clothes?

Well, technically the Temple of Time wasn't built in the Sacred Grove. You open a stone door, that has a portal leading to the Temple of Time.

The ruins where you obtain the Master Sword are the remains of the Temple of Time. The Temple of Time is physically located in the Sacred Grove.

I used to think this as well. The broken stairs at the Temple of Time ruins is what reminded me of the Forest Temple of OoT.

Yes, but Link is the only Hylian shown to be called brother by the Gorons in both games. And for the Gorons to have the Hero's Bow that Link obtained in Termina, they must have met him, even on the child timeline. Maybe they recognize the Hero's Clothes?

The bow is conclusive in it's own right, but the term 'brother' is used casually among the Gorons, as I have already said. The only particular reason we have seen Link being addressed by this term only is because proper conversations between Hylains and Gorons have been, as far as I know, non existant in both Ocarina and Twilight Princess - due to the fact that the game indeed simply centers around Link.

The 'brother' term is shown to be something not remotely specifc, so I do not consider it evidence in regard to a previous Link's involvement with the Gorons, however the Hero's bow was absolutely a direct reference.

I myself believe that the Sacred Grove ruins are the ruins of the Forest Temple courtyeard, and the Temple of Time was relocated to safety in the Sacred Forest Meadow, as that would be the safest place to hide it.

I personally think that Hyrule Castle was moved to being directly behind the Market after Ocarina of Time on the child timeline, and the town also indeed expanded, too. When I was at the top of Hyrule Castle tower in Twilight Princess before facing Ganondorf, I could swear that I saw the remains of what appears to be Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Castle in the distant background- the central tower of the castle, tipped over slightly and in ruin, just as I swear I could see the Desert Colusses and the Spirit Temple enterence in the Gerudo Desert background from Arbtiers Grounds whe looking out, and see the blocked Shadow Temple enterence in Kakariko graveyard by the events of Twilight Princess.

Lanayru clearly tells Link that the Hero's Tunic, Ocarina of Time's Link's tunic, was used by him when he saved Hyrule long ago or something. Whnever anyone sees the tunic, they mention the legenderyc hero, and the Gorons mention him and have his bow from Majora's Mask. I personally think Zelda Wii will chronicle what he did to become famous by Twilight Princess, and the Master Sword girl has something to do with that happened to the Temple of Time.

One word, and I garentee this is the only time you'll hear me use this word: Retcon.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

One word, and I garentee this is the only time you'll hear me use this word: Retcon.

"Retcon" is extremely hostile when you rgeard with the Temple of Time, as it begs the question regearding several story elements: if the Temple of Time was in the woods, Ganondorf wouldn't have attacked and destroyed the Market on the adult timeline, and th Forest Temple would be canceled out from existence during the events of Ocarina of Time, creating two large plot holes because of the popular "retcon" excuse.

It also begs the question- if it was "retconed" into the forest, why the hell is the Temple of Time still in around the centre of Hyrule during The Wind Waker. The Wind Waker, the parallel of Twilight Princess, still has what become of the temple of that timeline where it was in Ocarina of Time. Therefore, not only does "retcon" for this create large plot holes in the storyline, but it also goes against the fact that The Wind Waker said, "Hey, this is what became of the Temple of Time, and its... in the same places as it was during Ocarina of Time!"

Too much evidence and plt holes go against the "retcon". Adding to this, the area that the Temple of Time is in during Twilight Princess is most certinly the Sacred Forest Meadow, confirming its actual movment. "Retcon" would not only clash with The Wind Waker, but it would create story disconinuity and mean the Forest Temple was wiped from existence.

If the Master Sword, which is heavily connected to the Temple of Time, can take on an incarnation/has a spirit inside of it, as Zelda Wii is saying, what can the Temple of Time do? Be moved.

I strongly theorize that this Master Sword girl thing, as the game most certainly appears to be pre-Twilight Princess, will have something to do with the temple new location- I reckon the temple will actually be moved by this Master Sword incarnation thing in Zelda Wii, or at least hinted. Wii Zelda will reveal all.

It also begs the question- if it was "retconed" into the forest, why the hell is the Temple of Time still in around the centre of Hyrule during The Wind Waker.

We never see the Temple of time in TWW. What we enter is the castle.

Too much evidence and plt holes go against the "retcon". Adding to this, the area that the Temple of Time is in during Twilight Princess is most certinly the Sacred Forest Meadow, confirming its actual movment. "Retcon" would not only clash with The Wind Waker, but it would create story disconinuity and mean the Forest Temple was wiped from existence.

If the Master Sword, which is heavily connected to the Temple of Time, can take on an incarnation/has a spirit inside of it, as Zelda Wii is saying, what can the Temple of Time do? Be moved.

I strongly theorize that this Master Sword girl thing, as the game most certainly appears to be pre-Twilight Princess, will have something to do with the temple new location- I reckon the temple will actually be moved by this Master Sword incarnation thing in Zelda Wii, or at least hinted. Wii Zelda will reveal all.

Alright fine: More comlicated explenation.

After OoT the Temple of time was moved for some reason. Happy? It still doesn't change the fact that Death mountain in TP is to the far east and below Zora's domain whereas in OoT it's high north.

we do see it in wind waker. it's the tower of the gods.

Indeed. Tower of Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time- or atleast the dungeon part of the Temple of Time that the Oocca seemed to have built. Right below Tower of the Gods, which is exactly the same as the tower Temple of Time dungeon, is Hyrule Castle, and the Hyrule Castle portion that holds the Master Sword is extremely similar in appearance to how the Temple of Time appears in Twilight Princess.

Where is all of this? In the centre, where it all war in Ocarina of Time. Therefore, not only does reosrting to "retcon" for the Temple of Time create story discontinuity, but it goes against the fact that it is indeed in the centre of Hyrule in not only Ocarina of Time, but The Wind Waker also, in the same place. Heck, the Temple of Time dugeon, Tower of the Gods, is in the centre, too.

Hm... I'm not sure if I'd be so certain that the Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time....

No reason why it shouldn't be I guess.... One could argue that given Hyrule's protective bubble underwater it survived whatever stress ruined it on the CT, but still...

Don't think it's quite conclusive.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Hm... I'm not sure if I'd be so certain that the Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time....

No reason why it shouldn't be I guess.... One could argue that given Hyrule's protective bubble underwater it survived whatever stress ruined it on the CT, but still...

Don't think it's quite conclusive.

You're not getting the point... We're saying Tower of the Goods is the DUNGEON Temple of Time, part that lies beyond the window that Navi flew into.

Facts about them both:
both of them are towers
both have the same miniboss
both have Oocca-like things
both require use of controling statues
both have the exact same statues
both seem to reach into the sky
both are assosiated with the gods
both have that weight thing that tips up and down depending on the weight
both of them are puzzling
both have the same general appearance

The Tower of the Gods has some interesting connections to the Oocca and City in the Sky, and the Temple of Time dungeon is connected to City in the Sky and was built by the Oocca. Oh, and- they're both towers that requite the use of statue manipulation. The statues look the same and glow the same, too.

Therefore, Tower of the Gods = Temple of Time dungeon. Hyrule Castle in The Wind Waker, which is below Towe of the Gods just as the main Temple of Time is below the dungeon, looks very similar to the main area of the Temple of Time as it appears in Twilight Princess - and both hold the Master Sword.

Where are they? In the centre of Hyrule, right where the Temple of Time is during Ocarina of Time. Therefore, "retcon" will never be accepted for the Temple of Time, as The Wind Waker and the adult timeline of Ocarina of Time disgaree with it.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

After OoT the Temple of time was moved for some reason. Happy? It still doesn't change the fact that Death mountain in TP is to the far east and below Zora's domain whereas in OoT it's high north.

It's been hundreds of years since OoT. Landmasses shift. Earthquakes occur. Rivers erode land and travel to new areas. Besides, even in TP, there is a portion of Zora's River that is very close to Death Mountain.

Also, the Temple of Time is virtually the ONLY geographic feature that has drastically changed location between OoT and TP. Everything else is either right where it should be or extremely close to where it should be.

Indeed. Tower of Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time- or atleast the dungeon part of the Temple of Time that the Oocca seemed to have built. Right below Tower of the Gods, which is exactly the same as the tower Temple of Time dungeon, is Hyrule Castle, and the Hyrule Castle portion that holds the Master Sword is extremely similar in appearance to how the Temple of Time appears in Twilight Princess.

Where is all of this? In the centre, where it all war in Ocarina of Time. Therefore, not only does reosrting to "retcon" for the Temple of Time create story discontinuity, but it goes against the fact that it is indeed in the centre of Hyrule in not only Ocarina of Time, but The Wind Waker also, in the same place. Heck, the Temple of Time dugeon, Tower of the Gods, is in the centre, too.

No dear sir. The maps do not line up for that...they were simply both built by the Oocca.

Edit: Here's the map for comparison:



The ToT should be where the GDT is if we follow that map...

Originally Posted by Pinecove

No dear sir. The maps do not line up for that...they were simply both built by the Oocca.

Edit: Here's the map for comparison:



The ToT should be where the GDT is if we follow that map...

Love the map, Pinecove... What I am saying is, and your map supports it- the temple had to have moved. Look- Tower of the Gods, which is very similar to the dungeon Temple of Time and is located above a Hyrule Castle that looks like the Twilight Princess Temple of Time (to an extent) and holds the Master Sword, matches up with the castle town when you compare the maps. Where was the Temple of Time during Ocarina of Time? In the Castle Town. Therefore, Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker both say that it is in the town, meaning that "retcon" is not aloud for the Twilight Princess location for both story discontinuity and the fact that The Wind Waker shows it as still in the town area (the castle not only looks like the main Temple of Time from Twilight Princess to an extent, but also holds the Master Sword, and near it is Tower of the Gods, which has strong similarity to the dungeon Temple of Time).

Therefore, it had to have been actually relocated to forest in the story, and this is suported by the fact that Link knew that Ganondorf wanted to get to it.

You can't compare TP to WW. In WW Hyrule has been in a protective bubble for hundreds of years while TP was still prone to geographical changes and human influence.

The islands all match perfectly to Twilight Princess locations.

Explain how Mother & Child Isles match up with Mother & Child Rocks... how Hyrule Castle's location in The Wind Waker match with its relative location in Twilight Princess, how the poised area of Faron Woods and the Forest Temple match up with Forbidden Woods and Forest Haven, how Greatfish Isle matches up with Zora's Domain, how Shark Island matches with being where Lake Hylia was, how the Vave of Ordeals matches with the Labyrnath...

Fun fact: the original intent was that The Wind Waker's Hyrule was flooded Twilight Princess Hyrule, as Twilight Princess was originally intented to be set before The Wind Waker, meaning Twilight Princess had a Hyrule designed to be definate flooded Hyrule in The Wind Waker.

Therefore, they still match- but now they're parallel. But the point in the end is- that's how they're supposed to match. The Wind Waker's Hyrule wasn't flooded until long after Ocarina of Time, and could have been flooded shortly before the eents of Twilight Princess, but set on the adult timeline. Therefore, they're supposed to be the exact same Hyrule, one flooded and the other not, on two different timelines.

Sorry, I meant that as a reply to Pinecove. I was trying to say that you can't compare the location of the Temple of Time between TP and WW because of the difference in events that occur in them.