Sacred Grove Ruins = OoT's Forest Temple?

Originally Posted by Link92

Yes, in TP. In OoT, however, it's on the exact opposite end of the map.

I mean the fact that it was moved. Especially with no mention of it having been moved. This gives great possibility to a retcon.

Originally Posted by Bingo675

I mean the fact that it was moved. Especially with no mention of it having been moved. This gives great possibility to a retcon.

I can say the same thing against your argument. There has never been any mention of a retcon from either in-game quotes or developer quotes. This gives great possibility that the Temple of Time was legitimately, in-universe, moved. Using a retcon is the equivalent of making up your own facts.

Originally Posted by Link92

I can say the same thing against your argument. There has never been any mention of a retcon from either in-game quotes or developer quotes. This gives great possibility that the Temple of Time was legitimately, in-universe, moved. Using a retcon is the equivalent of making up your own facts.

I wasn't arguing against that. I was arguing against your point that a retcon isn't a legitimate possibility.

I wasn't arguing against a retcon being possible. I was arguing that in order to claim a retcon took place, you need developer quotes or an in-game TP quote that says the Temple of Time was never really in Castle Town.

Originally Posted by Link92

I wasn't arguing against a retcon being possible. I was arguing that in order to claim a retcon took place, you need developer quotes or an in-game TP quote that says the Temple of Time was never really in Castle Town.

And I'm saying equally so, you need evidence of it being moved.

Originally Posted by Bingo675

And I'm saying equally so, you need evidence of it being moved.

It's in a new location. Ganondorf attacked it on the child timeline after Link and Zelda left him alone. TP's geography is pretty much the same as OoT's in terms of most major geographic features. Death Mountain and Gerudo Desert are directly parallel to Castle Town, Lake Hylia is adjacent to Gerudo Desert, etc. It's obviously the same Hyrule, and the Temple of Time is not located in Hyrule Castle Town in TP, which has expanded to a location slightly closer to Hyrule Castle. In order to expand the town, what did the Hylians have to do? Move the Temple that's ruined and crumbling to a location near the Forest Temple. In doing this, they could make room to expand the town.

No, you're claiming that, just because we never see them do it, they can't actually do it. That's a pointless argument. That's like saying "I've never seen you curl your tongue, therefore, you can't do it."

That’s a horrible analogy; tongue rolling is a common and documented ability. It’s entirely possible that someone I’ve never met can roll their tongue. The matter at hand is whether a character can do something that’s never been seen before or mentioned. A more apt analogy would be ‘I’ve never seen you use heat vision and don’t know any case of anyone using it, therefore you can’t do it.’

And your explanation does not have fewer assumptions. You're suggesting the Temple of Time was ALWAYS in the Sacred Grove and was never canonically in Hyrule Castle Town. Not only do we have blatant proof that it WAS in Castle Town, but there is absolutely no evidence, in-game or otherwise, to assume a retcon took place. Meanwhile, the evidence that I have to support that the Temple of Time was moved is that it is nowhere near Hyrule Castle Town in TP. It's in southernmost Hyrule, whereas it was in northernmost Hyrule in OoT.

No, all we know from the Temple going south is that its location has changed, whether this is from an in game reason or an out game change in still up in the air.
Reason to believe a retcon took place is that the location of the Temple actually mattered in TP, otherwise we have no journey through the grove, while in OoT the journey itself had no importance whatsoever, only the destination mattered.

To prove that a retcon took place, you need confirmation from either a developer quote, or an in-game quote, none of which even suggest that the Temple was actually in southernmost Hyrule in OoT. I, however, simply need to show you TP's and OoT's maps in order to support my theory that the Temple was indeed moved or a new one with a similar design was built in the Sacred Grove and the old one in OoT's Castle Town was taken down.

I’m not actually trying to prove it at this point, only demonstrate that it is a logical possibility which doesn’t rely upon making up facts.

I’ve shown that where the Temple was in OoT held no impact on the story, while it does in TP, showing that that a retcon was completely possible as well as providing a reason for the retcon. At the same time I’ve explained why in game explanations for the movement of Zora’s Domain make no sense as well as explaining why it had to be changed. One retcon can be accepted as true, why not another?

What does him getting out on the AT have to do with TP? Or am I confused? lol.

Well, we’re talking about why the Sword is in the castle in WW, which is all adult timeline.
To review my idea of what’s happened- Ganondorf breaks out of sacred realm, door of time opened by the sages in this time of need as they have the keys (stones and ocarina), Master Sword taken by Sages as there should be no problem with them handling it and no problem with opening the gate to the Sacred Realm as Ganondorf is loose, Master Sword enshrined in Hyrule castle hidden chamber which could have been designed as a fail safe location in case he ever did get out.
After all, rebuilding or moving a temple is completely different to building or even remaking a room.

I see it more so that it's harder to claim someone just pulled the Master Sword and moved it into the basement. I think magic involving the ToT exists nevertheless. The ToT is simply made of stones. I don't really see it as a stretch to move it through magic. Maybe it was a command by the goddesses. That because it existed within Castle Town, it was too prone to attack, so it must be hidden. So the Sages then moved it to the forest, perhaps.

Well there shouldn’t be any problem with the Sages getting to it or handling it, we’re only told evil people can’t touch it.
I’m afraid I keep my stance that we don’t know if anyone is capable of that, short of the gods as you said, but we still have no evidence that they did, plus it isn’t exactly great for a theory when you need the gods to make it work.

And?

It’s of importance to the plot. Because of the provinces it actually matters whether or not some locations are closer to some than others, without changing the map many plot relevant points would need to be changed. Of course in the choice between changing the plot of a game which could then require even further plot changes or simply changing a location which never had any plot relevance in relation to others which do you think a developer would choose?
I’m thinking the latter, which is why the domain is now west of Death Mountain.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I’ve shown that where the Temple was in OoT held no impact on the story, while it does in TP, showing that that a retcon was completely possible as well as providing a reason for the retcon. At the same time I’ve explained why in game explanations for the movement of Zora’s Domain make no sense as well as explaining why it had to be changed. One retcon can be accepted as true, why not another?

Because the Temple of Time was in Castle Town in OoT. It's impact on the story is irrelevant. If it was there, it was there. Think about the child timeline fate of Ganondorf. Link and Zelda "left him be" and he did "something outrageous." What was this "something outrageous?" An attack directly on the Temple of Time, no doubt. Ganondorf needed Link's accidental assistance in order to gain entry to the Sacred Realm. If Link and Zelda left Ganondorf alone, that means they did nothing. Without Link's assistance in opening the Door of Time and without pulling the Master Sword from its pedestal, Ganondorf could not get into the Sacred Realm. So what did he do? He tried to destroy the Temple of Time.

This would explain why the Temple of Time was moved after OoT. If it's in the Lost Woods, provided the Lost Woods are the Sacred Grove, no evil would have a good chance of finding it. Ganondorf's attack on the Temple of Time in the child timeline would serve as an example to the Royal Family that leaving the entrance to the Sacred Realm right next to the country's capital is very stupid. So they moved the Temple. If the Sages could build the Temple in the first place and Midna can move all kinds of bridges and meteorites, I think the Sages of Hyrule can teleport a Temple elsewhere.


The Zoras simply could have moved to a new domain between OoT and TP. TP's Domain doesn't look much like OoT's anyway. TP's throne room is above the waterfall and has no area nearby that would house Jabu-Jabu if he was still alive. The Domain itself could be a totally new place. There is in fact a portion of Zora's River in the Eldin province in TP, right under the Bridge of Eldin, which is right next to Death Mountain.

Come to think of it, TP's Death Mountain trail leading to the Gorons isn't the real Death Mountain. The real Death Mountain is the huge volcanic area that we can see off in the distance but can never really get to. For all we know, Zora's River mostly dried up after OoT and became the Death Mountain trail we see in TP that leads to the Goron Mines.

Originally Posted by Link92

It's in a new location. Ganondorf attacked it on the child timeline after Link and Zelda left him alone. TP's geography is pretty much the same as OoT's in terms of most major geographic features. Death Mountain and Gerudo Desert are directly parallel to Castle Town, Lake Hylia is adjacent to Gerudo Desert, etc. It's obviously the same Hyrule, and the Temple of Time is not located in Hyrule Castle Town in TP, which has expanded to a location slightly closer to Hyrule Castle. In order to expand the town, what did the Hylians have to do? Move the Temple that's ruined and crumbling to a location near the Forest Temple. In doing this, they could make room to expand the town.

You're not getting what I'm saying. All of your evidence could point to either it moving or a retcon.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well, we’re talking about why the Sword is in the castle in WW, which is all adult timeline.
To review my idea of what’s happened- Ganondorf breaks out of sacred realm, door of time opened by the sages in this time of need as they have the keys (stones and ocarina), Master Sword taken by Sages as there should be no problem with them handling it and no problem with opening the gate to the Sacred Realm as Ganondorf is loose, Master Sword enshrined in Hyrule castle hidden chamber which could have been designed as a fail safe location in case he ever did get out.
After all, rebuilding or moving a temple is completely different to building or even remaking a room.
Well there shouldn’t be any problem with the Sages getting to it or handling it, we’re only told evil people can’t touch it.
I’m afraid I keep my stance that we don’t know if anyone is capable of that, short of the gods as you said, but we still have no evidence that they did, plus it isn’t exactly great for a theory when you need the gods to make it work.
It’s of importance to the plot. Because of the provinces it actually matters whether or not some locations are closer to some than others, without changing the map many plot relevant points would need to be changed. Of course in the choice between changing the plot of a game which could then require even further plot changes or simply changing a location which never had any plot relevance in relation to others which do you think a developer would choose?
I’m thinking the latter, which is why the domain is now west of Death Mountain.

I suppose all of this is true. Again, as much as I don't want to believe in a retcon, it's still insanely possible. Sad that some of us have to be so closed minded.

Because the Temple of Time was in Castle Town in OoT. It's impact on the story is irrelevant. If it was there, it was there.

A few posts ago you used story impact as evidence on your stance, awful contrary aren’t you.
And indeed it ‘was’ there. Just like the OoT map ‘was’ up to date evidence.

Think about the child timeline fate of Ganondorf. Link and Zelda "left him be" and he did "something outrageous." What was this "something outrageous?" An attack directly on the Temple of Time, no doubt. Ganondorf needed Link's accidental assistance in order to gain entry to the Sacred Realm. If Link and Zelda left Ganondorf alone, that means they did nothing. Without Link's assistance in opening the Door of Time and without pulling the Master Sword from its pedestal, Ganondorf could not get into the Sacred Realm. So what did he do? He tried to destroy the Temple of Time.

This happens regardless of position.

This would explain why the Temple of Time was moved after OoT. If it's in the Lost Woods, provided the Lost Woods are the Sacred Grove, no evil would have a good chance of finding it. Ganondorf's attack on the Temple of Time in the child timeline would serve as an example to the Royal Family that leaving the entrance to the Sacred Realm right next to the country's capital is very stupid. So they moved the Temple. If the Sages could build the Temple in the first place and Midna can move all kinds of bridges and meteorites, I think the Sages of Hyrule can teleport a Temple elsewhere.

Generally you provide an explanation after showing that an event took place, not the other way around.
You thought wrong, while Midna can move large objects, she has yet to be shown moving something like a house. You still make an assumption that massive pieces of architecture can be moved by Twili magic. Which doesn’t matter anyway, as we have no idea whether or not the Sages can use Twili magic just because they’re Sages.
So we have two assumptions here, you assume that teleportation of large and intricate areas is possible and you assume that Sages would have knowledge of how to use a magic that was forbidden by their own gods on a severe penalty. Baseless assumptions I might add, which leaves your explanation flawed.
Also if we are to assume that castle town was attacked in the past we should have evidence of that occurring, like a quote of any resident like ‘The Kingdom hasn’t been in such bad shape since that desert king attacked the town.’ or ‘Legends say there was once a castle in the east of town, but was destroyed and vanished overnight.’, if the developers wanted us to reach the conclusion that a temple exodus occurred and not a retcon you think they’d give us a nudge in that direction. Instead so far as TP is concerned the Temple and the Town have no relation.

The Zoras simply could have moved to a new domain between OoT and TP. TP's Domain doesn't look much like OoT's anyway. TP's throne room is above the waterfall and has no area nearby that would house Jabu-Jabu if he was still alive. The Domain itself could be a totally new place. There is in fact a portion of Zora's River in the Eldin province in TP, right under the Bridge of Eldin, which is right next to Death Mountain.

So not only was I right and you know it but you changed your opinion without admitting your fault. Admirable.
Regardless your musing is impossible, as I said earlier no migration occurred. The domain is described as ‘their ancestral home.’ So we are obviously meant to come to the conclusion that this domain and the previous one are indeed the same, if they were intended to be different we would have had a quote to lead us to that conclusion.

Come to think of it, TP's Death Mountain trail leading to the Gorons isn't the real Death Mountain. The real Death Mountain is the huge volcanic area that we can see off in the distance but can never really get to. For all we know, Zora's River mostly dried up after OoT and became the Death Mountain trail we see in TP that leads to the Goron Mines.

Except we know the domain is their ancestral home, we know this. And as always you don’t have the evidence, and the village had no river running through it.

I suppose all of this is true. Again, as much as I don't want to believe in a retcon, it's still insanely possible. Sad that some of us have to be so closed minded.

Thanks for listening Bingo675, I'm glad to see someone with both a fair mind and and a friendly attitude on this board. I hope we can do this again sometime.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

A few posts ago you used story impact as evidence on your stance, awful contrary aren’t you.

I was making a point. You said there was no impact of the Temple of Time's location on OoT's story. If you can use that argument in biased favor of your own, I can do the same.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

This happens regardless of position.

If Ganondorf attacked the Temple of Time all the way down in southern Hyrule with no discernible towns or inhabitants nearby, he wouldn't have been seen trying to destroy it. There had to have been witnesses to see him attacking the Temple, which wouldn't happen if the Temple was way down south with no residents nearby.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You thought wrong, while Midna can move large objects, she has yet to be shown moving something like a house.

Who cares? She moved a gigantic chunk of a stone bridge, a huge canon, a meteorite, etc. And weight isn't even an issue. She moves them with magic, not physical strength. She could probably move just about any structure with or without the Fused Shadow.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You still make an assumption that massive pieces of architecture can be moved by Twili magic. Which doesn’t matter anyway, as we have no idea whether or not the Sages can use Twili magic just because they’re Sages.

If the Sages could build the first Temple of Time and the Oocca can build a city in the sky, they can build a new Temple/move a preexisting one. The Twili example was just that: an example.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

So we have two assumptions here, you assume that teleportation of large and intricate areas is possible and you assume that Sages would have knowledge of how to use a magic that was forbidden by their own gods on a severe penalty. Baseless assumptions I might add, which leaves your explanation flawed.

First off, it wasn't the Twili magic that was forbidden. It was the fact that it was used to gain entry to the Sacred Realm. And again, I'm not even remotely implying that the Sages can use Twili magic. But if a race of Hyrulean magic wielders can move huge structures, you'd think the Sages of the friggin Hylians, the ones who built the Temple in the first place and created a sword that repels all evil could do the same.

For all we know, the goddesses could have moved it.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Also if we are to assume that castle town was attacked in the past we should have evidence of that occurring, like a quote of any resident like ‘The Kingdom hasn’t been in such bad shape since that desert king attacked the town.’ or ‘Legends say there was once a castle in the east of town, but was destroyed and vanished overnight.’, if the developers wanted us to reach the conclusion that a temple exodus occurred and not a retcon you think they’d give us a nudge in that direction.

Originally Posted by TP's Sages

He was a leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.

This quote quite clearly states that Ganondorf DID invade Hyrule. And cursing Dodongo's Cavern and the Great Deku Tree aren't invasions. The invasion they're speaking of is most likely an attack on, as you said before, the nation's capital. Which contained the Temple of Time. The depiction of Ganondorf on his horse with flames in the background is supposed to be symbolic of an attack on Hyrule while parts of Hyrule were destroyed. This is much more than a "nudge in that direction."

And Hyrule's map in OoT is only outdated because TP is pretty much the same for the most part, but better technology allows them to make Hyrule bigger. The Temple's location, however, has absolutely nothing to do with better technology.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

So not only was I right and you know it but you changed your opinion without admitting your fault. Admirable.

I didn't change any position. And "You're right and I know it?" Lol. You have in no way proved that a retcon took place. Hyrule is bigger in TP because better technology allows that to happen. A retcon is an excuse not to think, to make up your own facts and pretend the developers just change things around and say "See, it was always there. The Temple's location in OoT? Never happened." You're just rewriting the details of the game to better fit your argument, whereas I'm giving the in-universe explanation. Retconning is lazy and baseless.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Regardless your musing is impossible, as I said earlier no migration occurred. The domain is described as ‘their ancestral home.’ So we are obviously meant to come to the conclusion that this domain and the previous one are indeed the same, if they were intended to be different we would have had a quote to lead us to that conclusion.

First off, hundreds of years took place between OoT and TP. "Ancestral" could simply mean "since long before TP." Second, the two domains look nothing alike.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Except we know the domain is their ancestral home, we know this. And as always you don’t have the evidence, and the village had no river running through it.

I never said Kakariko has a river running through it. And as I said before, "ancestral" can mean anything from "a hundred years ago" to "always has been." Because Zora's Domain in TP looks nothing like its OoT counterpart, I'm more inclined to believe the former.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Thanks for listening Bingo675, I'm glad to see someone with both a fair mind and and a friendly attitude on this board. I hope we can do this again sometime.

So just because somebody has the nerve to disagree with you, that means they're not being friendly? Fine. I'll find quite a few posts of you being "friendly" to my argument.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

What you are suggesting is impossible and foolish

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

HA! You fool!

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Now you're just making me laugh, you're forgetting you don't have any evidence either supporting your stance.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Your uninformed opinion is duly noted, but I'm not being lazy, I'm being logical. Try it sometime, it's nice.

Yeah, you're really friendly. Disagreeing with my argument is fine. Flat out insulting my opinion isn't. Let me ask this, do you only act friendly to people who agree with you? Because I haven't once insulted your intelligence in this thread. The only thing I've said is that a retcon is lazy and holds no in-universe strength.

I think both of you ladies have to chill a bit.

Anyway, Link92 makes a good point about Midna moving large objects. Although it's not sage magic, it's still evidence of something very large in the series being moved.

Another point: Link92, keep in mind that just because the Temple of Time has seen better days does not mean Ganondorf attacked it. It's been hundreds of years. You have to expect a certain amount of decay.

EDIT: You too, Magic

I don't know about the Temple of Time, but it is impossible that Zora's Domain moved. Zoras Fountain is the source of all water in Hyrule, and the Domain is directly at the Fountain in both OoT and TP. So if Zora's Domain moved, Zoras Fountain must have moved, too.

And I don't believe that it is likely that the source of all water in Hyrule moved.

I was making a point. You said there was no impact of the Temple of Time's location on OoT's story. If you can use that argument in biased favor of your own, I can do the same.

But storyline contradiction is really the only thing that can effectively remove the possibility of a retcon.

If Ganondorf attacked the Temple of Time all the way down in southern Hyrule with no discernible towns or inhabitants nearby, he wouldn't have been seen trying to destroy it. There had to have been witnesses to see him attacking the Temple, which wouldn't happen if the Temple was way down south with no residents nearby.

Sounds of explosions? Massive smoke plumes? Small settlements en route? Prophetic dreams from the princess? Any number of things could alert people to an attack on a remote place.

Who cares? She moved a gigantic chunk of a stone bridge, a huge canon, a meteorite, etc. And weight isn't even an issue. She moves them with magic, not physical strength. She could probably move just about any structure with or without the Fused Shadow.

Magic has its limits, compare any of those objects to the entire temple ruins. The difference in size is clear and we should assume that as we haven’t seen anything of that magnitude done we can only assume and speculate.

If the Sages could build the first Temple of Time and the Oocca can build a city in the sky, they can build a new Temple/move a preexisting one. The Twili example was just that: an example.

Well it appears implicit that the two temples are the same place and as building a flying machine and moving an entire area are different matters entirely we still have no reason to believe such an act is actually possible.

First off, it wasn't the Twili magic that was forbidden. It was the fact that it was used to gain entry to the Sacred Realm.

My point was there shouldn’t be anywhere to learn it from as all practitioners are long gone.

And again, I'm not even remotely implying that the Sages can use Twili magic. But if a race of Hyrulean magic wielders can move huge structures, you'd think the Sages of the friggin Hylians, the ones who built the Temple in the first place and created a sword that repels all evil could do the same.

Well I wouldn’t consider the objects huge for a start, and I wouldn’t think it. The sages abilities could be focused on just a few aspects so far as we know. We can’t just expect them to know all magic simply because they are skilled in some form of magic. That’s like expecting a doctor to diagnose a sick plant.

For all we know, the goddesses could have moved it.

So you can’t consider retcons but a deus ex machina is fine?

This quote quite clearly states that Ganondorf DID invade Hyrule. And cursing Dodongo's Cavern and the Great Deku Tree aren't invasions. The invasion they're speaking of is most likely an attack on, as you said before, the nation's capital. Which contained the Temple of Time. The depiction of Ganondorf on his horse with flames in the background is supposed to be symbolic of an attack on Hyrule while parts of Hyrule were destroyed. This is much more than a "nudge in that direction."

If some king of a foreign nation attacked and destroyed a sacred building used as what amounts to weapon storage within a country with obvious intent of taking over said country with said weapon I’m sure anyone would consider it an invasion.

And Hyrule's map in OoT is only outdated because TP is pretty much the same for the most part, but better technology allows them to make Hyrule bigger. The Temple's location, however, has absolutely nothing to do with better technology.

Yeah it has to do with reaching a plot coupon and dungeon with a bit of a challenge.

I didn't change any position. And "You're right and I know it?" Lol. You have in no way proved that a retcon took place. Hyrule is bigger in TP because better technology allows that to happen. A retcon is an excuse not to think, to make up your own facts and pretend the developers just change things around and say "See, it was always there. The Temple's location in OoT? Never happened." You're just rewriting the details of the game to better fit your argument, whereas I'm giving the in-universe explanation. Retconning is lazy and baseless.

Previously you were saying the zoras never migrated and erosion caused the change, you totally changed your stance. I have shown that the domain hopping was incorrect, that is what I was right regarding.
Really I must ask, why the bias against retcons? It’s only amending things which never mattered in the first place and changed for good reason. We’re both just ‘pretending’ that the location was changed, just by different people. And not once have I made up facts or refused to think, it’s insulting to think so. The way I saw it you threw the first stone, but if I hurt your feelings then I’m sorry to have done so.
A retcon is reasoning to not over think.

First off, hundreds of years took place between OoT and TP. "Ancestral" could simply mean "since long before TP." Second, the two domains look nothing alike.

Then why give us clear reason to believe they are the same place when they could easily have went the other way? You seem to be finding different interpretations and ignoring the intent.
Also as the graphics have improved the aesthetics have been upgraded, as to why it’s outside. Cave walls and ceilings are completely capable of eroding and falling apart over time.

I never said Kakariko has a river running through it. And as I said before, "ancestral" can mean anything from "a hundred years ago" to "always has been." Because Zora's Domain in TP looks nothing like its OoT counterpart, I'm more inclined to believe the former.

You just said the mountain trail was probably part of the river, which then leads smack dab into Kakariko. The point is we’ve no reason to believe the mountain areas were ever inhabited by the Zora, or had a river through it. Only one river source was discussed and they don’t move or change. And you want to get into appearance? I can riff a list of places we know are previous areas but still look nothing like said areas.

Yeah, you're really friendly. Disagreeing with my argument is fine. Flat out insulting my opinion isn't. Let me ask this, do you only act friendly to people who agree with you?

I said those things because frankly I was baffled by your reasoning, combined with poor logic shown in various other posts. Once again, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings but I’m not sorry for making those statements.
And no, I try to be friendly with everyone, but I can be rubbed up the wrong way easily by the incomprehensible.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

But storyline contradiction is really the only thing that can effectively remove the possibility of a retcon.

The possibility of a retcon is, once again, just an excuse for a theorist to completely change the details of an older game. The developers have this right, but it's not for you to say "The Temple's location in OoT? Never happened."

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Magic has its limits, compare any of those objects to the entire temple ruins. The difference in size is clear and we should assume that as we haven’t seen anything of that magnitude done we can only assume and speculate.

Warping occurs constantly in the Zelda series. The Temple of Time could also have simply been rebuilt. If the Sages could create the Temple in the first place, they can rebuild it, and if the sages can warp to different points (as we see when they appear out of nowhere in OoT in various locations,) they can probably warp a building away.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well it appears implicit that the two temples are the same place and as building a flying machine and moving an entire area are different matters entirely we still have no reason to believe such an act is actually possible.

Never even remotely said anything about a flying machine.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

My point was there shouldn’t be anywhere to learn it from as all practitioners are long gone.

Again, if the Interlopers had such abilities, the Sages probably had similar abilities, as they are powerful enough to put a seal on the Sacred Realm and create a sword that can repel all evil. You'd think they could zap a building to a new location or even rebuild a replacement elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

So you can’t consider retcons but a deus ex machina is fine?

A Deus Ex Machina takes place when a conflict is resolved incredibly quickly without any discernible fore-thought. The goddesses moving it was, again, another example that there are far more possibilities than a retcon.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

If some king of a foreign nation attacked and destroyed a sacred building used as what amounts to weapon storage within a country with obvious intent of taking over said country with said weapon I’m sure anyone would consider it an invasion.

Ganondorf's intent couldn't have been so obvious, as even after cursing the Deku Tree and sealing off Dodongo's Cavern, the king of Hyrule still trusted him above his own daughter.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Yeah it has to do with reaching a plot coupon and dungeon with a bit of a challenge.

And that in any way lessens the significance of the fact that the Temple of Time was in Castle Town in OoT? Ganondorf's attack on Castle Town in OoT was for a reason. He invaded Hyrule to take it over. He could only take it over by obtaining the Triforce. He could only obtain the Triforce by attacking the nation's capital, where the gate to the Sacred Realm lied.

You also overlook something. The Temple of Time existed in Castle Town because the Sacred Realm was supposed to be, at the time, under protection the Royal Family. How could they protect it if it's way down south? This isn't an issue in TP, where they are no longer obligated to protect the Sacred Realm, but in OoT, the Temple of Time existed in closer proximity with the home of the Royal Family for a reason. So it's location in OoT has that major storyline significance, which is ruined if it "always existed in the south and was never really in Castle Town."

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Previously you were saying the zoras never migrated and erosion caused the change, you totally changed your stance. I have shown that the domain hopping was incorrect, that is what I was right regarding.

The Domain hopping could easily be correct. The throne room in OoT was not directly above the waterfall, Jabu-Jabu's home was right behind it, etc, and all of that is changed in TP.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Really I must ask, why the bias against retcons? It’s only amending things which never mattered in the first place and changed for good reason. We’re both just ‘pretending’ that the location was changed, just by different people.

It did matter in the first place. The Temple of Time was in Castle Town because it had to be in close proximity of the Royal Family. The Royal Family, however, no longer holds this obligation by the time of TP. In fact, Ganon's implied attack on the Temple itself would be strong reason for them to realize that putting the Temple so close to the capital, out in the open, was no longer a good idea.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Then why give us clear reason to believe they are the same place when they could easily have went the other way? You seem to be finding different interpretations and ignoring the intent.

They probably aren't the same place at all. In TP, there is no area for Jabu-Jabu, the throne room is now directly above the waterfall, the domain itself no longer requires entering a waterfall to reach it, etc. And gameplay purposes have nothing to do with this. Hyrule's forests now exist to the south rather than the east with no discernible gameplay purposes to require such a change. Zora's River could have existed in the Eldin province with no problems. Various parts of the game involve leaving Twilight areas to go back to Light areas. There would be no reason to simply retcon the River to being in the Lanayru province.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You just said the mountain trail was probably part of the river, which then leads smack dab into Kakariko. The point is we’ve no reason to believe the mountain areas were ever inhabited by the Zora, or had a river through it.

The river doesn't have to lead directly into Kakariko. It was right next to it in OoT, and besides, the Death Mountain we see in OoT isn't even the same one we traverse in TP. OoT's true Death Mountain is the completely inaccessible inferno we always see in the background. We never actually reach it. The Death Mountain trail from OoT is probably long gone by the time of TP, with the new one taking place of a small portion of Zora's River/Domain.

Originally Posted by link92

Ganondorf's intent couldn't have been so obvious, as even after cursing the Deku Tree and sealing off Dodongo's Cavern, the king of Hyrule still trusted him above his own daughter.

Only because he didn't know about it. Gaining knowledge of these attacks against his country would be more than enough reason for the king to arrest Ganondorf for treason.

It did matter in the first place. The Temple of Time was in Castle Town because it had to be in close proximity of the Royal Family. The Royal Family, however, no longer holds this obligation by the time of TP.

that was the job of the sages, not the royal family.

In fact, Ganon's implied attack on the Temple itself would be strong reason for them to realize that putting the Temple so close to the capital, out in the open, was no longer a good idea.

There's no evidence that Ganondorf attacked the temple of time. Even if he did, he was virtually powerless until his execution. So what was he going to do, fiendishly pound on the door of time and hope that it would open so he could somehow get past a seal held in place by a sword that he can't even touch? He was no real threat on the CT until he was put into the twilight realm.
You seem to be ignoring how dangerous it would be to move the temple of time. remember the portals from LttP? the portal in the ToT is just like that only it has the temple and MS there to keep evil people out. you can move the temple if you want, but you can't move the portal. moving the temple would leave the SR open for anyone to enter, which is what the sages tried to prevent in the first place. you could say that the sages put another seal on the portal, but that would defeat the purpose of moving the temple which featured a seal that had never been breached before. As much as I dislike the concept of retcons, it makes more sense that the developers decided that it was stupid to have the entrance to the SR located in the biggest city in Hyrule and moved it to somewhere more hidden and out of the way.

There could be other explanations that could come to light later on, but right now this seems to be the simplest explanation.

Originally Posted by Link92

The possibility of a retcon is, once again, just an excuse for a theorist to completely change the details of an older game. The developers have this right, but it's not for you to say "The Temple's location in OoT? Never happened."

You’re fine to think little of it, but it’s still a valid option.

Warping occurs constantly in the Zelda series. The Temple of Time could also have simply been rebuilt. If the Sages could create the Temple in the first place, they can rebuild it, and if the sages can warp to different points (as we see when they appear out of nowhere in OoT in various locations,) they can probably warp a building away.

Once again, we’ve never seen anything of that magnitude done or referenced before so saying they can is still improbable. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose it’s possible but without any real basis, allowing a retcon to be contemplated.

Never even remotely said anything about a flying machine.

I intended it as another way of saying ‘set of flying buildings’.

Again, if the Interlopers had such abilities, the Sages probably had similar abilities, as they are powerful enough to put a seal on the Sacred Realm and create a sword that can repel all evil. You'd think they could zap a building to a new location or even rebuild a replacement elsewhere.

I wouldn’t think that, magic is relative to species, as shown in Majora’s Mask. Whatever the Twili are capable of is irrelevant unless we have clear reason to believe the Sages can duplicate any magic.

A Deus Ex Machina takes place when a conflict is resolved incredibly quickly without any discernible fore-thought. The goddesses moving it was, again, another example that there are far more possibilities than a retcon.

It would still be out of nowhere without any foreshadowing, a possibility, but not a strong one.

Ganondorf's intent couldn't have been so obvious, as even after cursing the Deku Tree and sealing off Dodongo's Cavern, the king of Hyrule still trusted him above his own daughter.

The king was oblivious to all Ganondorf did, and it’s probably less a case of not trusting his daughter than it is trusting his daughter but not willing to completely blow off a neighbouring king over what may just be a nightmare. That’s just bad form.

And that in any way lessens the significance of the fact that the Temple of Time was in Castle Town in OoT? Ganondorf's attack on Castle Town in OoT was for a reason. He invaded Hyrule to take it over. He could only take it over by obtaining the Triforce. He could only obtain the Triforce by attacking the nation's capital, where the gate to the Sacred Realm lied.

The temple had and has no relevance to the capital, the Ocarina does. He could only obtain the Triforce by getting all the keys to it. One of which was in the capital.

You also overlook something. The Temple of Time existed in Castle Town because the Sacred Realm was supposed to be, at the time, under protection the Royal Family.

They say nothing of the sort; the only thing under the Royal Family’s protection was the Ocarina of Time. In that sense the Sacred Realm was also under protection of the Gorons, Zora and Kokiri.

How could they protect it if it's way down south?

By guarding the Ocarina, that’s all that was expected of them.

The Domain hopping could easily be correct. The throne room in OoT was not directly above the waterfall, Jabu-Jabu's home was right behind it, etc, and all of that is changed in TP.

Aesthetics.

It did matter in the first place. The Temple of Time was in Castle Town because it had to be in close proximity of the Royal Family.

Nope, that isn’t mentioned at all.

They probably aren't the same place at all. In TP, there is no area for Jabu-Jabu, the throne room is now directly above the waterfall, the domain itself no longer requires entering a waterfall to reach it, etc.

Aesthetics/natural change in land formation. You may as well reach the conclusion that Lake Hylia isn’t the same because there’s no path to the shore.

And gameplay purposes have nothing to do with this. Hyrule's forests now exist to the south rather than the east with no discernible gameplay purposes to require such a change.

It was just to give the first province a larger area while keeping it in an acceptable general area, and it’s completely possible there were always forests south of Hyrule which we never needed to reach.

Zora's River could have existed in the Eldin province with no problems. Various parts of the game involve leaving Twilight areas to go back to Light areas. There would be no reason to simply retcon the River to being in the Lanayru province.

Sorry, but no. The bird ride upriver couldn’t be included, along with shadow bugs along the way and thawing the domain and meeting Rutela would have been thrown out of place. These things could be reorganised by the developers, but why bother when they can just finish up the product? Priorities man.

The river doesn't have to lead directly into Kakariko. It was right next to it in OoT, and besides, the Death Mountain we see in OoT isn't even the same one we traverse in TP. OoT's true Death Mountain is the completely inaccessible inferno we always see in the background. We never actually reach it. The Death Mountain trail from OoT is probably long gone by the time of TP, with the new one taking place of a small portion of Zora's River/Domain.

I was checking the other thread earlier, is it safe to say you now believe the river that was once or may still be in the gorge was the nearby Zora’s river?
I agree with this, but I believe the river flowed from west to east, away from the Domain in TP.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Once again, we’ve never seen anything of that magnitude done or referenced before so saying they can is still improbable. Don’t get me wrong, I suppose it’s possible but without any real basis, allowing a retcon to be contemplated.

If the Sages built it in the first place, they can rebuild it elsewhere, although I'm sure you were actually referencing the "temple was moved theory" as being improbable, not the theory that it was rebuilt.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It would still be out of nowhere without any foreshadowing, a possibility, but not a strong one.

I don't think the goddesses moved it, either. I think it was either moved or rebuilt.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Aesthetics/natural change in land formation. You may as well reach the conclusion that Lake Hylia isn’t the same because there’s no path to the shore.

Lake Hylia is an exception. It's in a "bowl" in TP. The walls around the Lake show that Lake Hylia's water level was originally much higher, and since OoT, the lake floor has collapsed and the water has sunk down with it. This explains Falbi's hut existing directly across from the large dead tree, which is directly above the spirit spring, which was probably OoT's Water Temple because of all of these factors and the fact that it contains separate rooms and stuff. Since OoT, the dropping of the water level has caused the Water Temple to now be above water level.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It was just to give the first province a larger area while keeping it in an acceptable general area, and it’s completely possible there were always forests south of Hyrule which we never needed to reach.

What appears to be the remains of the two dead Great Deku Trees serve as TP's forest temple. One is directly behind the other, and the Kokiri symbol is plastered all over the Temple. Not to mention the fact that, just a short walk away from the Forest Temple, there exists a ruined village in the poisoned fog area. All of this evidence suggests that this area is the last remaining piece of Kokiri Forest, meaning the Faron Woods and Kokiri Forest are one and the same. Another factor supporting this is that, the Faron Woods are actually south of Kakariko Gorge, which probably once had Zora's River running through it. The forest may have expanded and landmasses have shifted since OoT, as supported by the massive chasm between Ordon and Faron.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I was checking the other thread earlier, is it safe to say you now believe the river that was once or may still be in the gorge was the nearby Zora’s river?
I agree with this, but I believe the river flowed from west to east, away from the Domain in TP.

Well, right above Kakariko Gorge on TP's map, Zora's River runs right by it. So the River that once ran through Kakariko Gorge in OoT has since dried up or branched off into newer areas.

Originally Posted by Link92

there exists a ruined village in the poisoned fog area.

Can you show me this ruined village? I walked all over that area before it was covered in fog and all I can see is the ruins of a bridge that used to be there.

Originally Posted by ZeldaZealot

Can you show me this ruined village? I walked all over that area before it was covered in fog and all I can see is the ruins of a bridge that used to be there.

That's it. But there are ruined areas where it appears as if houses once stood, such as the crumbled stone areas and broken wood structures all over the place.