Sacred Grove Ruins = OoT's Forest Temple?

Originally Posted by Link92

It's much easier for a river to move than it is for a mountain to move. And Lake Hylia didn't move to a new location. It's elevation is simply lower in TP. Falbi's hut is without a doubt the research lab from OoT, and directly across from it, what do we see? A large, dead tree, directly above the spirit spring entrance, which appears to be the remains of OoT's water temple. Zora's River can move between games because it's a river. It erodes landscapes. It flows. Mountains don't do this.

It's a pity we're not talking about Lake Hylia, I have no problem with its position, I have a problem with the position of Zora's Domain. Reservoirs of water don't jump to the other sides of mountains. Especially if they're the home to a long lasting species that they themselves say have never migrated. For this reason it is impossible that Zora's Domain moved due to natural factors.

What are you talking about? Pretty much every geographic factor in TP is right where it was in OoT. Death Mountain is to the east with Kakariko, Gerudo Desert is in the west, right along with Lake Hylia. Zora's River has changed locations slightly because rivers move quite a bit. The forests have moved to the south instead of being in the east, which can be explained by the huge chasm between Ordon and Faron. How are these geography changes impossible? Do you know anything about geography?

Except we're talking about Zora's Domain and the Temple of Time, I brought up the two places that are not in places they should be and you launch into a tirade about everything else. Stick to the matter at hand.

1.) A river runs through Zora's Domain. As I've said about ten times now, it's easy for a river to erode new land and begin moving in a different direction.

Rivers and reservoirs are very different matters, and we're talking about the latter.

2.) The Faron Woods is the same forest as Kokiri Forest, or at least very close to it, which is why the Kokiri symbol is all over TP's Forest Temple.

Once again- What if they built it but never lived in it. Do you have anything that goes against this theory?

This is reason enough to suggest that TP's Forest Temple is the remaining shells of the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Tree Sprout.

Not only have I provided another explantion that you can't deny the Kokiri would never carve out the interior of thier father.

He attacked the capital for two reasons. One, it's best to attack the capital, as you just mentioned, and two, THE TEMPLE OF TIME WAS IN THE CAPITAL! There is no need for a retcon. If you retcon the Temple of Time's OoT location, you have to change the entire story of the game.

HA! You fool! You only wanted a reason for him to attack the capital if the Temple wasn't there, I provided one and you agreed with it! You yourself have just admitted that an attack would happen whether or not the Temple was there. So once again nothing has changed due to the retcon.

That's a development explanation that has never been confirmed by the creators. We're talking about the in-universe explanation, which you have failed to address because you use "retcon" as an excuse to change the story of a game without reason.

I don't need creator confirmation, common sense is good enough. You answer yourself, if the OoT map was reused for TP the plot would need to be rewritten in key areas, correct?
What don't you get about this? If a retcon took place it would mean the retconned facts were true all along so no explanation is needed as nothing has changed. If Zora's Domian was retconned to be west of Death Mountain and the Temple of Time was retconned to south Hyrule it would mean the Domain was always west of Death Mountain and the Temple was always in south Hyrule. And Ocarina of Time doesn't change a bit.

Last I checked, the only reason for why the Deku Tree had nothing to do with the fused shadow is because the fused shadow was irrelevant in OoT. The Deku Tree just never mentioned it. He had no reason to.

But doesn't that seem strange to you? A relic of great evil sealed inside a being of great influence. That's simply irresponsible, which makes the whole situation unlikely.

If we were talking about OoT, you would be correct. The Temple of Time and Forest Temple were nowhere near each other. But wait a minute, haven't you been trying to convince us the entire time that the Temple's location in OoT is retconned to being in the Lost Woods? So you're contradicting yourself. In TP, the Temple of Time is right next to what appears to be ruined buildings that could possibly be the ruins of OoT's Forest Temple. There is no way of denying the presence of the ruined structures around the Temple. Care to explain those, or are you just going to say "retcon" and pretend Hyrule Castle Town was in the Lost Woods in OoT?

... Are you purposefully misinterpreting my argument? I even showed ypu were I thought the Temple was on that map, nowhere near the Lost Woods.
Those ruins could be anything, and you yourself have only deemed it a possibilty that its the mansion Forest Temple, so it's possible the ruins are just ruins. Hey i'm going to go with that, anything that refutes this idea?

If no movement took place, why is the Temple of Time in southernmost Hyrule while it is in the far north in OoT? How could the forest overtake the Temple ruins but leave Castle Town totally unaffected if no movement took place? Face it, the Temple of Time was moved to the Sacred Grove after OoT.

Perhaps I should also have marked on the original map 'Temple was never in Castle Town'. I want you to pretend- just humor me- and say that the temple was never in the town, but a place in south Hyrule. Then run through the story and see what it contradicts. I already have and I declare with every once of my mind that nothing in the story changes, if you do I'll just put your doubts at ease.

No. You don't have the right to simply make up your own facts about OoT. The Temple was in Castle Town during OoT, and is no longer there in TP.

In-Game evidence > You

I just looked at your map. There is no discernible forest south of Kakariko in TP. Also, you're trying to say that, in OoT, the Temple of Time WASN'T REALLY in Castle Town. So you're taking blatant in-game PROOF THAT IT WAS IN Castle Town, and calling it a lie. That's pretty arrogant. You can't rewrite in-game proof. Only the creators can do that.

You just don't get it, retconning the temple means that we ignore where it once was for the new position. Fictional facts are not real facts, they can be changed at the drop of a hat, why can't you understand that?
You've got it backwards, we don't go that far South in the map, so it's completely possible a forest is there.
I'm not saying it's a lie, I'm saying it's been out dated. You're turning my argument into a strawman, or using a logic fallacy along those lines.
That's exeactly what I'm saying they did. They rewrote the in game proof. For the sake of the new game.

I just noticed that the Forest Medallion symbol looks like the Manji Dungeon
(and also looks like a fan)

I think

Forest/Boomerang
LoZ Moon Dungeon = OoT Forest Temple = Forbidden Woods*

Windy Forest/Manji
LoZ Manji Dungeon = WW Wind Temple = TP Forest Temple

*(well Forbidden Woods is actually Kokiri Forest, but it's close to where
OoT's Forest Temple would be)

-----------------------------------------------
Also:

LoZ Moon Dungeon (Boomerang - Moon-shaped Map)
OoT Forest Temple (Moon-shaped Map 2F)
Forbidden Woods (Boomerang)

LoZ Manji Dungeon (Manji-shaped Map)
WW Wind Temple (Manji/Forest Medallion-shaped fans)
TP Forest Temple (Gale Boomerang [boomerang + wind])

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It's a pity we're not talking about Lake Hylia, I have no problem with its position, I have a problem with the position of Zora's Domain. Reservoirs of water don't jump to the other sides of mountains. Especially if they're the home to a long lasting species that they themselves say have never migrated. For this reason it is impossible that Zora's Domain moved due to natural factors.

Water erodes landmasses. It's not impossible at all for Zora's Domain to have moved to a new location after the River moved.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Except we're talking about Zora's Domain and the Temple of Time, I brought up the two places that are not in places they should be and you launch into a tirade about everything else. Stick to the matter at hand.

I am sticking to it. I already explained why both Zora's Domain and the Temple of Time are in different locations in TP than they were in during OoT.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Rivers and reservoirs are very different matters, and we're talking about the latter.

Did you miss the fact that Zora's Domain has a current and a waterfall? If it has a current, erosion is possible.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Once again- What if they built it but never lived in it. Do you have anything that goes against this theory?

Do you have anything that supports that theory? No. You may as well say "I think Moblins are aliens from mars because there is no proof that goes against this theory."

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Not only have I provided another explantion that you can't deny the Kokiri would never carve out the interior of thier father.

The Deku Tree already had a dungeon inside of him due to Ganondorf's curse. And after the Deku Sprout dies, what's to stop the Kokiri from doing just that? Morals? We don't know much about the morals of the Kokiri to begin with.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

HA! You fool! You only wanted a reason for him to attack the capital if the Temple wasn't there, I provided one and you agreed with it! You yourself have just admitted that an attack would happen whether or not the Temple was there. So once again nothing has changed due to the retcon.

If you could read you would see the part where I said he attacked Hyrule Castle Town for TWO REASONS. If you retcon the Temple's location, you have to explain why Link had to go to Hyrule Castle after obtaining all three spiritual stones, and you have to explain why he ended up in ruined Castle Town after leaving the temple as an adult for the first time. Stop retconning and learn how to think.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I don't need creator confirmation, common sense is good enough. You answer yourself, if the OoT map was reused for TP the plot would need to be rewritten in key areas, correct?

OoT's map IS reused for TP. It's just altered because of geographic shifts and wars. And you're trying to rewrite the Temple's location in OoT because you don't want to have to think about why it was moved after OoT. That's just laziness.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

What don't you get about this? If a retcon took place it would mean the retconned facts were true all along so no explanation is needed as nothing has changed. If Zora's Domian was retconned to be west of Death Mountain and the Temple of Time was retconned to south Hyrule it would mean the Domain was always west of Death Mountain and the Temple was always in south Hyrule. And Ocarina of Time doesn't change a bit.

The entire geography of OoT would change and story quotes wouldn't add up. A retcon is an excuse to make up your own false, baseless facts whenever you see fit. If I wanted to, I could say Epona is retconned in OoT to be a dragon because it doesn't mess up OoT's overall story. You see how that works? Retcon = baseless fanfiction.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

But doesn't that seem strange to you? A relic of great evil sealed inside a being of great influence. That's simply irresponsible, which makes the whole situation unlikely.

Right. Because all people in Zelda games are totally responsible and never make mistakes. Zelda told Link to open the gate to the Sacred Realm in OoT. What a big mistake that was. Ganondorf took over as a result. This is the girl fated to hold the Triforce of Wisdom? See how that works? Even the smartest characters act irresponsibly.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Are you purposefully misinterpreting my argument? I even showed ypu were I thought the Temple was on that map, nowhere near the Lost Woods.

Did you even read my post? You know, where I said this:

I just looked at your map. There is no discernible forest south of Kakariko in TP. Also, you're trying to say that, in OoT, the Temple of Time WASN'T REALLY in Castle Town. So you're taking blatant in-game PROOF THAT IT WAS IN Castle Town, and calling it a lie.

I knew where you THOUGHT the Temple of Time was, but you're wrong. You want to know how I know? It was in CASTLE TOWN IN OoT!! You can't just take that and call it a lie.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Perhaps I should also have marked on the original map 'Temple was never in Castle Town'. I want you to pretend- just humor me- and say that the temple was never in the town, but a place in south Hyrule. Then run through the story and see what it contradicts.

But it was in Castle Town. So you're just making up your own facts because you're too lazy to think of a real explanation. Your argument = lazy fanfiction. It contradicts Link seeing Castle Town in ruins after stepping out of the Temple of Time. It contradicts the Temple of Time, a major story element, being in Castle Town, near Hyrule Castle. It contradicts Zelda giving you the Ocarina just outside of Castle Town and it contradicts Zelda then telling you "Go right there, straight to the Temple of Time."

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You just don't get it, retconning the temple means that we ignore where it once was for the new position. Fictional facts are not real facts, they can be changed at the drop of a hat, why can't you understand that?

Not by you, they can't. As I've said before, you can't make up your own BS and call it canon. If you could, people would use that argument for everything. Your argument is the equivalent of you saying "In my opinion, the Temple of Time was never in Castle Town." The in-game proof tells us, 100% beyond a doubt, that the Temple of Time was in friggin Castle Town. You have no right to call that a lie and make up your own facts to support your baseless opinion.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You've got it backwards, we don't go that far South in the map, so it's completely possible a forest is there.
I'm not saying it's a lie, I'm saying it's been out dated.

No it hasn't been outdated. Why don't you understand that the Hylians could move or rebuild a building? There is no reason to call it outdated, because we have never been given a developer quote or ANY in-game evidence to say "See, the Temple was always here. It wasn't really in Castle Town in OoT."

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

That's exeactly what I'm saying they did. They rewrote the in game proof. For the sake of the new game.

No. They didn't rewrite it. The Temple was moved, not through a retcon, but by in-game people. If they rewrote it, the developers would have said "The Temple of Time wasn't actually in Castle Town in OoT." Do you know what people would say? Nothing, because they'd be at a loss for words at the stupidity. Stop using retcon as an excuse not to think.

Originally Posted by Link92

The Deku Tree already had a dungeon inside of him due to Ganondorf's curse. And after the Deku Sprout dies, what's to stop the Kokiri from doing just that? Morals? We don't know much about the morals of the Kokiri to begin with.

I don't think it would be so much a question of morals. Once a tree is dead, it's dead. In tWW, Forest Haven is contained within what appears to be the remains of a large tree, a good chance being a past Deku Tree. Once a Deku Tree dies, it regains its status as a piece of nature, I feel. I don't think theres any reason to think that the Kokiri or anyone who knows of the Deku Tree would feel any hesitation to use his remains in the construction of an important forest memorial.

Originally Posted by Link92

If you could read you would see the part where I said he attacked Hyrule Castle Town for TWO REASONS. If you retcon the Temple's location, you have to explain why Link had to go to Hyrule Castle after obtaining all three spiritual stones, and you have to explain why he ended up in ruined Castle Town after leaving the temple as an adult for the first time. Stop retconning and learn how to think.

I've been reading through your debates, and I really see no real reason why a retcon would severely affect the storyline. Even if Link doesn't step out of the Temple into ruined Castle Town, it doesn't really matter, to be honest. I hate to say it, but a retcon seems a definite possibility.

Originally Posted by Link92

Water erodes landmasses. It's not impossible at all for Zora's Domain to have moved to a new location after the River moved.

You really don't know anything about this, do you? I remember enough of my GCSE geography to be sure that if a reservoir ever does move the native species doesn't move with it, the matter at hand regards watersheds, if a reservoir does move from one side of mountains to another a whole new ecosystem is started up.
You're wrong man.

I am sticking to it. I already explained why both Zora's Domain and the Temple of Time are in different locations in TP than they were in during OoT.

Except the movement of reservoirs doesn't happen the way you believe it to, and movement of massive buildings has never been done before in Zelda so the chances of that happening are nigh impossible.

Did you miss the fact that Zora's Domain has a current and a waterfall? If it has a current, erosion is possible.

Erosion is not involved with the movement of watersheds.

Do you have anything that supports that theory? No. You may as well say "I think Moblins are aliens from mars because there is no proof that goes against this theory."

Now you're just making me laugh, you're forgetting you don't have any evidence either supporting your stance. I mean there's the symbol, but that only suggests a link, symbols can be made anywhere, you're just jumping to conclusions.
So let me rephrase this, what evidence do you have that says that the Forest Temple was the Deku Trees and that the Kokiri just never had involvement with the temple at some stage.
It's a very reasonable conclusion, especially as there's no reason for the Deku Tree to die.

The Deku Tree already had a dungeon inside of him due to Ganondorf's curse. And after the Deku Sprout dies, what's to stop the Kokiri from doing just that? Morals? We don't know much about the morals of the Kokiri to begin with.

Nothing, but why would they bother? They have reason to go through such lengths, and considering that the tree was thier dad it's very unlikely they'd even consider such a thing.
Why would the Sprout die, it should still be alive as nothing threatens its existance.

If you could read you would see the part where I said he attacked Hyrule Castle Town for TWO REASONS. If you retcon the Temple's location, you have to explain why Link had to go to Hyrule Castle after obtaining all three spiritual stones, and you have to explain why he ended up in ruined Castle Town after leaving the temple as an adult for the first time. Stop retconning and learn how to think.

Except Ganondorf only needed one reason, one is good enough to explain why he attacked, but you're right we do have two. It was the capital and it had the Ocarina.
Oh and you will love this:

Originally Posted by Ocarina of Time

-you've finally collected
all three Spiritual Stones!!
Go back to see Princess Zelda!

That clears up why he headed back to the castle.
And the future castle town has no impact on the plot as Bingo675 so kindly stated, really we're focusing on plot encounters like the meeting on the bridge. Since none occur in the future castle town there's no reason Link would have needed to go there til the end.

OoT's map IS reused for TP. It's just altered because of geographic shifts and wars. And you're trying to rewrite the Temple's location in OoT because you don't want to have to think about why it was moved after OoT. That's just laziness.

You just went and dodged my question, if Zora's Domain was still clockwise in regards to Death mountain the plot would not have worked, it needed to be in the same province as the lake.
Your uninformed opinion is duly noted, but I'm not being lazy, I'm being logical. Try it sometime, it's nice.

The entire geography of OoT would change and story quotes wouldn't add up. A retcon is an excuse to make up your own false, baseless facts whenever you see fit. If I wanted to, I could say Epona is retconned in OoT to be a dragon because it doesn't mess up OoT's overall story. You see how that works? Retcon = baseless fanfiction.

There's a harmless bluff if I ever heard one, the only to change in text would be directions. Which incidently don't change the plot.
And a massive temple relocating SOMEHOW isn't baseless or fanfiction?
And about that Epona stuff, what I'm claiming is nothing like what you're saying. You're just using another strawman, I'm only suporting retcons which would be done for valid reasons. And for the record, if Epona was made a dragon it may even fix plot holes in Majora's Mask, would explain how they got back out of that abyss.

Right. Because all people in Zelda games are totally responsible and never make mistakes. Zelda told Link to open the gate to the Sacred Realm in OoT. What a big mistake that was. Ganondorf took over as a result. This is the girl fated to hold the Triforce of Wisdom? See how that works? Even the smartest characters act irresponsibly.

The Deku Tree has never been shown to make mistakes, but fine I guess you're right. Since the Fused Shadow would have been in the next tree over anyway.

Did you even read my post? You know, where I said this:
I knew where you THOUGHT the Temple of Time was, but you're wrong. You want to know how I know? It was in CASTLE TOWN IN OoT!! You can't just take that and call it a lie.
But it was in Castle Town. So you're just making up your own facts because you're too lazy to think of a real explanation. Your argument = lazy fanfiction. It contradicts Link seeing Castle Town in ruins after stepping out of the Temple of Time. It contradicts the Temple of Time, a major story element, being in Castle Town, near Hyrule Castle. It contradicts Zelda giving you the Ocarina just outside of Castle Town and it contradicts Zelda then telling you "Go right there, straight to the Temple of Time."

Since this all seems to be the same thing I may as well repeat that if a retcon did occur we wouldn't consider that map valid evidence, I'm not calling it a lie it's only outdated.
It's a pity that Link visiting the castle has no impact on the strory, he could have done it at any point but nothing would change.
And if a location is updated, directions to said locations and routes taken would also be updated, please take that into account.
If you like I could show you an example that occured recently, but with a game that predates OoT? For anyone wondering it's the differences between the Lunar Whale in FFIV and now it's changes in The After Years.

Not by you, they can't. As I've said before, you can't make up your own BS and call it canon. If you could, people would use that argument for everything. Your argument is the equivalent of you saying "In my opinion, the Temple of Time was never in Castle Town." The in-game proof tells us, 100% beyond a doubt, that the Temple of Time was in friggin Castle Town. You have no right to call that a lie and make up your own facts to support your baseless opinion.

It's only a game, you could just try giving it a thought.

No it hasn't been outdated. Why don't you understand that the Hylians could move or rebuild a building? There is no reason to call it outdated, because we have never been given a developer quote or ANY in-game evidence to say "See, the Temple was always here. It wasn't really in Castle Town in OoT."

What? That temple? Impossible, the technology is completely above the people's heads, it's a major assumption to believe they ever could replicate it, and a larger assumption to believe that they had a way to move it considering nothing of the sort has ever been done before.

No. They didn't rewrite it. The Temple was moved, not through a retcon, but by in-game people. If they rewrote it, the developers would have said "The Temple of Time wasn't actually in Castle Town in OoT." Do you know what people would say? Nothing, because they'd be at a loss for words at the stupidity. Stop using retcon as an excuse not to think.

You think the developers would really give a damn to mentioning it?
Stop accusing me of not having thought about this, say what you want but you can't deny that this series is still just a game series, which means that a retcon is still a completely valid possibility, though it was the last I was willing to contemplate. But considering that the other explanations require too much assumption and blatant arse-pulls and taking into account what facts would change as a result and how it affects nothing of any importance it seems like the most acceptable explanation.

And Bingo675, thanks for agreeing though you don't like the stance. I'm honestly not fond of it but the rest of them just leave me begging belief. Also just remember that the Deku Tree isn't just a regular piece of wood to the Kokiri, he's thier father and since they're no ordinary people(simply put) thier treatment of his remains may be dealt with in a different manner.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It's a very reasonable conclusion, especially as there's no reason for the Deku Tree to die.

That's a bit too much to assume. Anything could have happened over hundreds of years. Plus, if Ganon learned of young Link's involvement, and where he came from, the first person he'd go after for revenge, I believe, is the Deku Tree.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The Deku Tree has never been shown to make mistakes, but fine I guess you're right. Since the Fused Shadow would have been in the next tree over anyway.

Again, there's no information pointing to anything regarding this. Perhaps the Deku Tree withheld the Fused Shadow to keep it from evil.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It's only a game, you could just try giving it a thought.

Amen! This is something that a lot of people seem to forget about on this site. Zelda, especially, doesn't take itself as seriously as something like Star Wars. Not everything is literal, it's just a fun game.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

What? That temple? Impossible, the technology is completely above the people's heads, it's a major assumption to believe they ever could replicate it, and a larger assumption to believe that they had a way to move it considering nothing of the sort has ever been done before.

Evidence against that being that they somehow moved the Master Sword in tWW. I doubt it was regular people, but someone moved it. Unless you're willing to argue that they also retconned Hyrule Castle to be the ToT in tWW, and retconned it off a lake and into a forest, just 3 years prior to TP.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

And Bingo675, thanks for agreeing though you don't like the stance. I'm honestly not fond of it but the rest of them just leave me begging belief. Also just remember that the Deku Tree isn't just a regular piece of wood to the Kokiri, he's thier father and since they're no ordinary people(simply put) thier treatment of his remains may be dealt with in a different manner.

Anytime, bro. But I'm not in full agreement with it, as I said. But I am sure it's possible. And again, my Forest Haven example. If it is the remains of a Deku Tree, they turned it into their home. Why not dedicate the remains of another to a temple? It's not like they're chopping him up for firewood.

Originally Posted by Bingo675

That's a bit too much to assume. Anything could have happened over hundreds of years. Plus, if Ganon learned of young Link's involvement, and where he came from, the first person he'd go after for revenge, I believe, is the Deku Tree.

Er, just so I'm up to speed here, do you believe that the first of the Forest Temple trees is the Deku Sprout fully grown? Because if so there's another problem here. Also what space of time are we talking about Ganondorf getting found out? Like within a few weeks after OoT? Months? Years?
First up, Ganondorf gives no recognisation to TP Link, while not exactly evidence is rather suspect that he'd have nothing to say on another boy in green getting in his way. So it may have been suggested that Ganondorf never found out about Links involvement.
Secondly, why would he take revenge on the Tree? He's already killed him, there should be no Sprout to be found at this stage.
Furthermore the problem isn't the killing, it's the staying dead. In order to prevent the reincarnation of the tree Ganondorf needed to use his Triforce piece, but considering the Sages surprise to it he'd not used it before. And they would have known that he'd done something to the Deku Tree, Sage of Forest and all. I don't think anything short of the Triforce could put a stop to the rebirth.
Speaking of the Sage of Forest, if he(it?) was present for the execution it means that there was no problem with the Forest Temple. Considering that the route of the reincarnation problem was the curse on the Temple which is broken by the awakening of the Forset Sage there should be no hold on the trees cycle of rebirth.
And finally, how old was the tree when it died? Ganondorf couldn't have been 'executed' too long after OoT, now I'm no expert on Deku Trees but assuming they're like regular trees they shouldn't reach that height for decades. Unless they're like hyper growers or something.

Anyway I'll try to conclude this. If we are to reach the conclusion that the Forest Temple is the Deku Tree we must assume that Ganondorf found out about Links involvement, assume the Sprout grew at this stage, assume that it reached maturity after a relatively short period of time, assume that Ganondorf killed it again, assume that he prevented it's rebirth without the Triforce of Power and assume that he did so without a curse on the Forest Temple of the Sages.
Or just assume that it was killed by a random monster that somehow has the power to match the Triforce.
That's a bundle of big assumptions right there, and there may be more I've not even thought about. While if we reach the conclusion that Kokiri built the Temple into a collection of regular huge trees we make what assumptions?

Again, there's no information pointing to anything regarding this. Perhaps the Deku Tree withheld the Fused Shadow to keep it from evil.

No problem, I officially retract this point. My apologies.

Evidence against that being that they somehow moved the Master Sword in tWW. I doubt it was regular people, but someone moved it. Unless you're willing to argue that they also retconned Hyrule Castle to be the ToT in tWW, and retconned it off a lake and into a forest, just 3 years prior to TP.

To put it simply there's a big difference between moving a sword into a newly built room or a renovated basement and moving a temple across a country. I certainly don't believe the castle was the Temple of Time, it just had a room built to house the Master Sword.

Anytime, bro. But I'm not in full agreement with it, as I said. But I am sure it's possible. And again, my Forest Haven example. If it is the remains of a Deku Tree, they turned it into their home. Why not dedicate the remains of another to a temple? It's not like they're chopping him up for firewood.

Well, I never thought the Haven was an actual tree, I thought that the Deku Tree being an earth spirit was able to manipulate the island around him into a safer and familiar form. But anyway, I guess it's possible that they could change it into a temple it just doesn't seem likely to me.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Er, just so I'm up to speed here, do you believe that the first of the Forest Temple trees is the Deku Sprout fully grown? Because if so there's another problem here. Also what space of time are we talking about Ganondorf getting found out? Like within a few weeks after OoT? Months? Years?
First up, Ganondorf gives no recognisation to TP Link, while not exactly evidence is rather suspect that he'd have nothing to say on another boy in green getting in his way. So it may have been suggested that Ganondorf never found out about Links involvement.
Secondly, why would he take revenge on the Tree? He's already killed him, there should be no Sprout to be found at this stage.
Furthermore the problem isn't the killing, it's the staying dead. In order to prevent the reincarnation of the tree Ganondorf needed to use his Triforce piece, but considering the Sages surprise to it he'd not used it before. And they would have known that he'd done something to the Deku Tree, Sage of Forest and all. I don't think anything short of the Triforce could put a stop to the rebirth.
Speaking of the Sage of Forest, if he(it?) was present for the execution it means that there was no problem with the Forest Temple. Considering that the route of the reincarnation problem was the curse on the Temple which is broken by the awakening of the Forset Sage there should be no hold on the trees cycle of rebirth.
And finally, how old was the tree when it died? Ganondorf couldn't have been 'executed' too long after OoT, now I'm no expert on Deku Trees but assuming they're like regular trees they shouldn't reach that height for decades. Unless they're like hyper growers or something.

Anyway I'll try to conclude this. If we are to reach the conclusion that the Forest Temple is the Deku Tree we must assume that Ganondorf found out about Links involvement, assume the Sprout grew at this stage, assume that it reached maturity after a relatively short period of time, assume that Ganondorf killed it again, assume that he prevented it's rebirth without the Triforce of Power and assume that he did so without a curse on the Forest Temple of the Sages.
Or just assume that it was killed by a random monster that somehow has the power to match the Triforce.
That's a bundle of big assumptions right there, and there may be more I've not even thought about. While if we reach the conclusion that Kokiri built the Temple into a collection of regular huge trees we make what assumptions?

While I will admit that there's more evidence against it than for it, I have to beg the question, where is the Deku Tree in TP? Do we just not see him? I think it's up for debate. Since someone suggested that large open area in the Faron Woods has many a similarity to Kokiri Forest, why could the Forest Temple area not be the Deku Tree's grove? I guess I'm suggesting more that it's a gesture toward that idea. There's a lot we don't know about between OoT and TP. I see what you're saying, but I still think there's reason for suspicion.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

To put it simply there's a big difference between moving a sword into a newly built room or a renovated basement and moving a temple across a country. I certainly don't believe the castle was the Temple of Time, it just had a room built to house the Master Sword.

The Master Sword and Temple of Time are both heavily weighed with magic. While the ToT has the Door of Time, the Master Sword seals a gateway to the Sacred Realm. I think moving it is a bigger deal than having two butch guys throw it in a moving box. It's an even harder case to argue if the ToT was retconned to the woods.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well, I never thought the Haven was an actual tree, I thought that the Deku Tree being an earth spirit was able to manipulate the island around him into a safer and familiar form. But anyway, I guess it's possible that they could change it into a temple it just doesn't seem likely to me.

Well again, I'm merely stating the possibilities. I'm sure less people at Nintendo think about these things than do here, I'm afraid. It's hard to tell if there is even an answer.

Originally Posted by Bingo675

While I will admit that there's more evidence against it than for it, I have to beg the question, where is the Deku Tree in TP? Do we just not see him? I think it's up for debate. Since someone suggested that large open area in the Faron Woods has many a similarity to Kokiri Forest, why could the Forest Temple area not be the Deku Tree's grove? I guess I'm suggesting more that it's a gesture toward that idea. There's a lot we don't know about between OoT and TP. I see what you're saying, but I still think there's reason for suspicion.

I'm of the opinion that we don't see him or the Kokiri just because we have no reason to run into them, they're out there somewhere we just don't revisit thier forest.
I can't actually see any similarity between the two, there's some woodwork about the place, but it's so basic anyone could have made it.
I simply think people find the locations reminiscent of each other for a sense of nostalgia.

The Master Sword and Temple of Time are both heavily weighed with magic. While the ToT has the Door of Time, the Master Sword seals a gateway to the Sacred Realm. I think moving it is a bigger deal than having two butch guys throw it in a moving box. It's an even harder case to argue if the ToT was retconned to the woods.

Well I don't think there's any reason to keep the gateway sealed after Ganondorf has broken free, like what's the problem with opening a cell door if the prisoner has already blown up the wall?
Wel thats true, but it's still entirely possible for it to be moved cross country. Then again, the King and all the other sages has been shown to teleport themselves or other people and Link has been teleported with the sword time and time again.

Well again, I'm merely stating the possibilities. I'm sure less people at Nintendo think about these things than do here, I'm afraid. It's hard to tell if there is even an answer.

Well I guess this is just inconclusive, but it was nice discussing it with you man.
By the way, do you get what I mean about moving Zora's Domain for the storyline of TP?

It's ridiculous to think the Temple couldn't me moved after OoT. For a race of people that can build enormous temples, a Castle, can use all kinds of magic, can repair canons that allow you to reach a city in the sky, can create a sword that repels all evil, and can build windmills, why can't they magically teleport a temple somewhere else?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I'm of the opinion that we don't see him or the Kokiri just because we have no reason to run into them, they're out there somewhere we just don't revisit thier forest.
I can't actually see any similarity between the two, there's some woodwork about the place, but it's so basic anyone could have made it.
I simply think people find the locations reminiscent of each other for a sense of nostalgia.

You could be right. Again, as of now there is no definitive answer, only possibilities. Although, given the scenario that the Deku Tree were to die by whatever means, would the Kokiri last? We know that while the Kokiri remain in Kokiri Forest, they will never age. But is that due to magic of the forest, or is it the Deku Tree's doing? One way or another, the Kokiri also become the Koroks in tWW. Again, is it the Deku Tree doing this? Keeping them as kids may be to keep them happy, in their 'golden years,' while making them Koroks, making them wood which floats, and giving them the ability to fly across gaps of water. Is the Deku Tree fitting the Kokiri for survival? And if he were to disappear, what would happen to them?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well I don't think there's any reason to keep the gateway sealed after Ganondorf has broken free, like what's the problem with opening a cell door if the prisoner has already blown up the wall?

I don't think Ganondorf made it into the Sacred Realm on the CT. During the events of OoT, at least.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Wel thats true, but it's still entirely possible for it to be moved cross country. Then again, the King and all the other sages has been shown to teleport themselves or other people and Link has been teleported with the sword time and time again.

Ah, but if this is so, why isn't it possible for the temple itself to be moved?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well I guess this is just inconclusive, but it was nice discussing it with you man.
By the way, do you get what I mean about moving Zora's Domain for the storyline of TP?

You too.
And just the geography change? I don't think that much into it, to be honest. If anything, they probably moved it to match up with Dragon Roost. The map of Hyrule changes in ways like this every game. I think it has to be taken as a grain of salt. Unless you were inferring something else?

Because they've never done such a thing before, thus there is no reason to believe they have the ability.
As impressive as those acts are(windmill?) the creators of such marvels are long gone and they are unrelated to the matter at hand.

Ah, Bingo you got a sneak post in on me, well lets see.

Well I'd say the Kokiri would die out left too long without DT, if not because of magic then of monster invasions. They probably would eventually vanish without him, but sticking to the matter of Faron we've no reason to believe they did anything but have a hand in the making of the temple.

Well we're talking AT, with the WW and all right? He got out then.
Once again, there's a difference between moving objects and buildings. We have no reason to believe anyone in Hyrule is capable of moving a building, while teleportation of people holding stuff has occured countless times.

Well I was refering to how if you go anticlockwise from the South you reach the Domain before the Mountain, which are meant to be in different provinces for the shadow bug quest to work.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Because they've never done such a thing before, thus there is no reason to believe they have the ability.
As impressive as those acts are(windmill?) the creators of such marvels are long gone and they are unrelated to the matter at hand.

That's a useless argument. Just because they've never been shown to do it before, that means they're incapable? So let's say the Sages built the Temple of Time we see in OoT, which is a fact. Just because we didn't actually SEE them build it, that means they're incapable? If they could build the temple the first time, they can build another one or move the preexisting one. The fact that we have never actually SEEN them magically moving buildings means nothing.

On the contrary it means everything, you can't just make up powers to have your theories work. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.
Unless we see them do it, or are told they are capable of it they can't do it.
And I'm using Occams Razor here, so the explanations with more acceptable and fewer assumptions trumps the explantion with huge and countless assumptions.

Say it's possible all you like, you can't back it up.

This is what I belive.

Since humens or hylians can's move the master sword pedistal with the temple of time, it had to be the Sages to move the temple of time and the pedistal to the the Sacred Gove Ruins.

Originally Posted by Bingo675

You could be right. Again, as of now there is no definitive answer, only possibilities. Although, given the scenario that the Deku Tree were to die by whatever means, would the Kokiri last?

I don't see any reason for the Deku Tree Sprout to not appear on the CT. In OOT, it could not appear because of Ganondorfs curse on the Forest Temple. But in the CT, there should not be a curse on the Forest Temple, because Ganondorf is banished to the Twilight Realm.

Just because the Deku Tree sprout only was in the 7-year-future in OOT does not mean that there never was a sprout in the CT when the timeline split. So both the Deku Tree and the Kokiri could still be sitting perfectly fine hidden in the forest during Twilight Princess. I don't see anything that speaks against it.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

On the contrary it means everything, you can't just make up powers to have your theories work. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.
Unless we see them do it, or are told they are capable of it they can't do it.
And I'm using Occams Razor here, so the explanations with more acceptable and fewer assumptions trumps the explantion with huge and countless assumptions.

Say it's possible all you like, you can't back it up.

No, you're claiming that, just because we never see them do it, they can't actually do it. That's a pointless argument. That's like saying "I've never seen you curl your tongue, therefore, you can't do it."

And your explanation does not have fewer assumptions. You're suggesting the Temple of Time was ALWAYS in the Sacred Grove and was never canonically in Hyrule Castle Town. Not only do we have blatant proof that it WAS in Castle Town, but there is absolutely no evidence, in-game or otherwise, to assume a retcon took place. Meanwhile, the evidence that I have to support that the Temple of Time was moved is that it is nowhere near Hyrule Castle Town in TP. It's in southernmost Hyrule, whereas it was in northernmost Hyrule in OoT.

To prove that a retcon took place, you need confirmation from either a developer quote, or an in-game quote, none of which even suggest that the Temple was actually in southernmost Hyrule in OoT. I, however, simply need to show you TP's and OoT's maps in order to support my theory that the Temple was indeed moved or a new one with a similar design was built in the Sacred Grove and the old one in OoT's Castle Town was taken down.

Originally Posted by Link92

Not only do we have blatant proof that it WAS in Castle Town, but there is absolutely no evidence, in-game or otherwise, to assume a retcon took place.

Evidence is that it is in the Sacred Grove. :/

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Ah, Bingo you got a sneak post in on me, well lets see.

Well I'd say the Kokiri would die out left too long without DT, if not because of magic then of monster invasions. They probably would eventually vanish without him, but sticking to the matter of Faron we've no reason to believe they did anything but have a hand in the making of the temple.

Well we're talking AT, with the WW and all right? He got out then.

What does him getting out on the AT have to do with TP? Or am I confused? lol.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Once again, there's a difference between moving objects and buildings. We have no reason to believe anyone in Hyrule is capable of moving a building, while teleportation of people holding stuff has occured countless times.

I see it more so that it's harder to claim someone just pulled the Master Sword and moved it into the basement. I think magic involving the ToT exists nevertheless. The ToT is simply made of stones. I don't really see it as a stretch to move it through magic. Maybe it was a command by the goddesses. That because it existed within Castle Town, it was too prone to attack, so it must be hidden. So the Sages then moved it to the forest, perhaps.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well I was refering to how if you go anticlockwise from the South you reach the Domain before the Mountain, which are meant to be in different provinces for the shadow bug quest to work.

And?

Originally Posted by Bingo675

Evidence is that it is in the Sacred Grove. :/

Yes, in TP. In OoT, however, it's on the exact opposite end of the map.

My best gusses is that it was the sages that moved the Temple of Time to protect it from Gannondorf.