Sacred Grove Ruins = OoT's Forest Temple?

A theory on ZeldaWiki still tries to say Hyrule moved north and the Temple of Time was taken over by the Sacred Grove. They have yet to explain why every geographic feature in TP other than the Temple of Time is in nearly the exact area as they were in during OoT.

Maybe the sages moved it, like warped it or something. That's sorta what they did to Ganon at the end of OOT.

Originally Posted by Link92

Okay, we know Hyrule did not move north after Ocarina of Time. Hyrule Castle Town was not left behind to be overgrown by forests. Ocarina's geography is far too similar to TP's geography for that to be true. Also, if they really did move north, they had to find a brand new Kakariko Village, Zora's River, Death Mountain, Gerudo Desert, and Lake Hylia all in the exact same places they were in during Ocarina of Time. In Twilight Princess, Kakariko and Death Mountain are still in the east, and Gerudo Desert and Lake Hylia are still in the west. Hyrule did not move north.

Correct.

So what happened to the Temple of Time? It's virtually the only geographic feature that has drastically changed location between OoT and TP. The forest now being in the south could simply be due to a slight geographic shift. This would explain the huge chasm between Ordon and the Faron Woods as well as the fact that, by the time of TP, there appear to be unreachable forest areas everywhere.

Zora's domain. And the forest could always have been there.

If Hyrule really did move north and leave the Temple of Time behind, why is Lake Hylia suddenly north of the Temple in TP? These are all the same locations from OoT. So what are the ruined buildings next to the Temple of Time's ruins in the Sacred Grove? They couldn't be OoT's Castle Town, because Castle Town is right where it should be by the time of TP and is obviously the same town, but expanded. So could the ruined buildings be the remains of OoT's Forest Temple?

The layout of the map was rewritten in order to better suit the game, the plots of other games are unaffected by this change.

OoT's Forest Temple is not the same one we see in TP. TP's Forest Temple is inside two large trees, one directly behind the other, a description that fully fits the Deku Tree Sprout and the Great Deku Tree. And TP's Forest Temple is right next to the poisoned, foggy remains of what is likely Kokiri Forest, because of the broken buildings and wooden bridges.

Last I checked the Deku Tree had nothing to do with the Fused Shadow, are there are many other similarly sized trees. The Forest Temple is simply within two trees of this species.
The Forest temple was probably designed by the Kokiri to protect the Fused Shadow, the locations are completely unrelated.

OoT's Forest Temple, on the other hand, is a large stone building. Was the Temple of Time rebuilt next to OoT's Forest Temple? This could explain why the Sacred Grove has its name; it could be part of the Sacred Forest Meadow. Remember that both the Sacred Forest Meadow and the Lost Woods were one big maze. This description can also be applied to the Sacred Grove.

The Temple of Time and Forest Temple are not anywhere near to each other, the same applies to the grove and meadow. No meaningful or worthy similarities exist.

After child Link returned to the past at the end of OoT, it was stated by Aonuma that he and Zelda simply left Ganondorf alone, and he "did something outrageous." Did he attack the Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle Town? This would explain the Temple of Time being in ruins and Hyrule Castle Town being much closer to Hyrule Castle by the time of TP. Castle Town was rebuilt and expanded to being closer to the Castle while the Temple of Time was moved. This doesn't explain, however, OoT Link's hero status by the time of TP, where the story of the ancient hero is very well known. We know he did some heroics after returning from Termina, because he gave the Gorons the Hero's Bow and the Gorons call Link "brother" in TP, a name they only gave to Link after he cleared Dodongo's Cavern. But Link probably didn't achieve heroic status from Ganondorf's imprisonment.

The Temple was probably attacked, but the castletown was unaffected. No movement took place, but the forest overtook the Temple ruins.

But who moved or rebuilt the Temple of Time in the Sacred Grove, and why did they do it? Are the ruined buildings around the Temple of Time the remains of OoTs Forest Temple? Discuss.

No movement, no nearby locations of note. Simply a rewriting of what used to be true.

So you may better understand my stance have a look at where I believe the locations to be in TP and OoT. Please note that these marks are only in relation to other important locations, eg. South of Death Mountain, east of Faron Woods, and some wiggle room is completely possible.

Love the map, Pinecove...

I'm working on a better one..but thanks.

What I am saying is, and your map supports it- the temple had to have moved. Look- Tower of the Gods, which is very similar to the dungeon Temple of Time and is located above a Hyrule Castle that looks like the Twilight Princess Temple of Time (to an extent) and holds the Master Sword, matches up with the castle town when you compare the maps. Where was the Temple of Time during Ocarina of Time? In the Castle Town. Therefore, Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker both say that it is in the town, meaning that "retcon" is not aloud for the Twilight Princess location for both story discontinuity and the fact that The Wind Waker shows it as still in the town area (the castle not only looks like the main Temple of Time from Twilight Princess to an extent, but also holds the Master Sword, and near it is Tower of the Gods, which has strong similarity to the dungeon Temple of Time).

Therefore, it had to have been actually relocated to forest in the story, and this is suported by the fact that Link knew that Ganondorf wanted to get to it.

The question is: How. As ridikulous as it sounds, it's true. Did a helicopter pick it up or something? The only explenation I can think of is that the ToT was moved to the forest AFTER the "something outrageous" (where the ToT was destroyed?) and when we go back in time, we're warping to where the ToT used to be.

Explain how Mother & Child Isles match up with Mother & Child Rocks... how Hyrule Castle's location in The Wind Waker match with its relative location in Twilight Princess, how the poised area of Faron Woods and the Forest Temple match up with Forbidden Woods and Forest Haven, how Greatfish Isle matches up with Zora's Domain, how Shark Island matches with being where Lake Hylia was, how the Vave of Ordeals matches with the Labyrnath...

Don't forget the hidden village and Windfall.

@Magic Tech: Explain how death mountain switched places with Zora's domain.

I don't see what that has to do with anything but as you wish.
It's another rewrite and there's a very logical explanation for it, OoT never had provinces and TP does. The Domain had to be in the same province as the Lake or the plot goes to hell. Leave it in it's original position and there's either a forest or a mountain in the middle.
The facts were changed in order to accomodate the plot, thankfully it doesn't affect the story of OoT in the slightest.

By the way fellas, could we cut down on how places are similar and focus on how they're the same? Thanks.
And for the record, Mother and Child isles and Greatfish are nowhere near each other.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

No movement, no nearby locations of note. Simply a rewriting of what used to be true.

In other words, you believe it's a retcon. You know what I think? Retconning is nothing but an excuse not to think. The Temple was moved. As for Zora's Domain and the Forests being in a different place, rivers move due to erosions and currents. The forests are in different places between OoT and TP because of geography shifts like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Thus explaining the huge open chasm between Faron and Ordon.

Originally Posted by Link92

In other words, you believe it's a retcon. You know what I think? Retconning is nothing but an excuse not to think. The Temple was moved. As for Zora's Domain and the Forests being in a different place, rivers move due to erosions and currents. The forests are in different places between OoT and TP because of geography shifts like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Thus explaining the huge open chasm between Faron and Ordon.

The Gorons in Twilight Princess actually mention landslides in Hyrule, too. They also mention the active volcano, which has completely reshaped Kakariko's surrounding area.

And judging by the nature of Death Mountain in Twilight Princess, it worked its magic on the geography surrounding it. Heck, why is there so much waters, springs, and rivers near the Death Mountain area? Most certianly, there must have been some major shifts... There are gorges, blocks, and shifts all around Hyrule during Twilight Princess.

And it must have taken a major shift to sever Gerudo Desert from Hyrule, too.

I think it was some sort of time-portal thing. Somehow the Temple of Time got destroyed, and then it was restored through magic, or some other force. The Temple no longer exists in the material world, but it IS in some magical other dimension or something like that.

Are there any canyons in TP besides the ones carved by the flow of water?

I keep hearing that TP Hyrule is heavily damaged, but other than the rivers
carving gorges (like the Grand Canyon) what other "damage" is there?

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Are there any canyons in TP besides the ones carved by the flow of water?

I keep hearing that TP Hyrule is heavily damaged, but other than the rivers
carving gorges (like the Grand Canyon) what other "damage" is there?

The huge chasm between Ordon Village and the Faron Woods, the huge cliffs next to TP's Forest Temple, which weren't anywhere to be found in OoT, the fact that it takes jumping off a cliff to get to Lake Hylia in TP, among other things.

Even the Temple of Time is completely damaged, and Kakariko Village is a complete mess. So... what happened to cause all of that damage in Hyrule?

Originally Posted by Potent Col

Even the Temple of Time is completely damaged, and Kakariko Village is a complete mess. So... what happened to cause all of that damage in Hyrule?

The Village was recently abandoned due to monsters.

The ToT is proabably what Ganondorf did b4 he was captured

Originally Posted by Link92

The huge chasm between Ordon Village and the Faron Woods, the huge cliffs next to TP's Forest Temple, which weren't anywhere to be found in OoT, the fact that it takes jumping off a cliff to get to Lake Hylia in TP, among other things.

Lake Hylia is a good point, but Faron and Ordon themselves are nowhere to
be seen in OoT, so we can't determine if they were damaged since then

And it must have taken a major shift to sever Gerudo Desert from Hyrule, too

I believe there's a quote in TP that says Gerudo desert was cut off from passers by because of the whole thing with Ganondorf.

In other words, you believe it's a retcon. You know what I think? Retconning is nothing but an excuse not to think. The Temple was moved. As for Zora's Domain and the Forests being in a different place, rivers move due to erosions and currents. The forests are in different places between OoT and TP because of geography shifts like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Thus explaining the huge open chasm between Faron and Ordon.

Same here. It's the only thing I believe a retcon is nessasary for in the entire series.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Same here. It's the only thing I believe a retcon is nessasary for in the entire series.

So, wait a minute. You believe that in OoT, the Temple of Time was in the Lost Woods all along? Retconning the Temple's location in OoT causes disasters. The easiest way to solve this debate is to say it was moved. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. If you retcon the Temple's location in OoT, you have to explain why Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle Town in search of a method of gaining entry into the Sacred Realm. The Temple's location in OoT was a major plot element. It can't be retconned. The Temple being moved after OoT is the only argument that works.

In my opinion, the only thing that deserves a retcon is "who built the Temple of Time." Rauru says the Sages created the Temple of Time. The only retcon I think is necessary in the entire series is "They didn't do all the work. The Oocca helped them."

The Oocca just weren't mentioned in Ocarina of Time... Ah, also- the Temple of Time holds both the Light Medalions and the Master Sword (both Sage things) and also the Dominion Rod and synbols similar to things seen in City in the Sky in the dungeon part, meaning the Oocca may have built the dungeon part of the temple because it has lots of things assosiated with them and is a tower (meaning reaches into the sky, you could say).

And we all know that the Oocca and Sages are connected any. Heck, the Oocca assosiation with owl statues is mysterious, as the Light Sage is assumed to be the owl from Ocarna of Time, who flies... into the skies...

Well the Temple of Time was just to the east of castle town in Ocarina of Time, in Twilight Princess your talking about years apart. With the master sword gone there was no need to keep the temple, as such they tore it down and replaced it with other things... Castle Town has grown since Ocarina of Time.
They did with it like what we do with any useless building today, replace it with something useful.
But that's just what I think.

Originally Posted by Link92

In other words, you believe it's a retcon. You know what I think? Retconning is nothing but an excuse not to think. The Temple was moved. As for Zora's Domain and the Forests being in a different place, rivers move due to erosions and currents. The forests are in different places between OoT and TP because of geography shifts like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Thus explaining the huge open chasm between Faron and Ordon.

You're overlooking the fact that if lakes and rivers moves mountains and other landscape features move with them.
What you are suggesting is impossible and foolish, landscape features do not swap places in relation with each other.
I've looked at the evidence, I've found it lacking, I've deduced that a retcon is the most likely explanation then provided a logical explanation for one such change. And yet you claim I'm trying not to think.

Now how about you actually respond to everything I've said in my starting post.

Retconning the Temple's location in OoT causes disasters. The easiest way to solve this debate is to say it was moved. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. If you retcon the Temple's location in OoT, you have to explain why Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle Town in search of a method of gaining entry into the Sacred Realm.

You're under a false impression, there are no plot problems as I just mentioned.
You're overlooking the fact that he'd attack the castle for the Ocarina and because when beginning a war the best place to start is the capital. With this in mind where is the problem of not having the Temple nearby?
Let me answer- nowhere, there isn't any problem.

Actually, Ganon invaded Hyrule on the child timeline, too, and the flashbacks shows him riding across Hyrule with the whole plac going up in flames and darkness. And Aonuma said that he did something outragous during that time, so bad that the Sages had to execute him.

Therefore, he is most likely responsible for how wrecked Hyrule is by Twilight Princess. He must have changed everything.

In the origial version of Twilight Princess, the entire freaking landscape is ravaged from left to right, trees are burnt down, ect.. In Twilight Princess itself, there is a huge chasm, gorges all over Hyrule, the Temple of Time is destroyed and looks as it a war happened, the landscape is in pretty bad shape, rivers have changed, Kakariko has changed, there are ruins everywhere, Hyrule Field has been pulled apart so badly that it needs bridges to connecte each part, and those birdges look as if they have been attacked, too.

Funny I thought everyone on the thread thought that was the result of earthquakes and such, you're changing your tune awful quick, I don't think you put much thought into that argument.
Not to mention you never even brought up Castle Town, since we're talking about the events on the adult timeline then you come running in trying to change the subject from a topic that I'm going to win with no trouble.

Back to the point at hand, Castle Town was attacked for the Ocarina and for the war then Ganondorf headed to the Temple of Time.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You're overlooking the fact that if lakes and rivers moves mountains and other landscape features move with them.

It's much easier for a river to move than it is for a mountain to move. And Lake Hylia didn't move to a new location. It's elevation is simply lower in TP. Falbi's hut is without a doubt the research lab from OoT, and directly across from it, what do we see? A large, dead tree, directly above the spirit spring entrance, which appears to be the remains of OoT's water temple. Zora's River can move between games because it's a river. It erodes landscapes. It flows. Mountains don't do this.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

What you are suggesting is impossible and foolish, landscape features do not swap places in relation with each other.
I've looked at the evidence, I've found it lacking, I've deduced that a retcon is the most likely explanation then provided a logical explanation for one such change. And yet you claim I'm trying not to think.

What are you talking about? Pretty much every geographic factor in TP is right where it was in OoT. Death Mountain is to the east with Kakariko, Gerudo Desert is in the west, right along with Lake Hylia. Zora's River has changed locations slightly because rivers move quite a bit. The forests have moved to the south instead of being in the east, which can be explained by the huge chasm between Ordon and Faron. How are these geography changes impossible? Do you know anything about geography?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Now how about you actually respond to everything I've said in my starting post.

Gladly.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Zora's domain. And the forest could always have been there.

1.) A river runs through Zora's Domain. As I've said about ten times now, it's easy for a river to erode new land and begin moving in a different direction.
2.) The Faron Woods is the same forest as Kokiri Forest, or at least very close to it, which is why the Kokiri symbol is all over TP's Forest Temple. This is reason enough to suggest that TP's Forest Temple is the remaining shells of the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Tree Sprout.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

You're under a false impression, there are no plot problems as I just mentioned.
You're overlooking the fact that he'd attack the castle for the Ocarina and because when beginning a war the best place to start is the capital. With this in mind where is the problem of not having the Temple nearby?
Let me answer- nowhere, there isn't any problem.

He attacked the capital for two reasons. One, it's best to attack the capital, as you just mentioned, and two, THE TEMPLE OF TIME WAS IN THE CAPITAL! There is no need for a retcon. If you retcon the Temple of Time's OoT location, you have to change the entire story of the game.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The layout of the map was rewritten in order to better suit the game, the plots of other games are unaffected by this change.

That's a development explanation that has never been confirmed by the creators. We're talking about the in-universe explanation, which you have failed to address because you use "retcon" as an excuse to change the story of a game without reason.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Last I checked the Deku Tree had nothing to do with the Fused Shadow, are there are many other similarly sized trees. The Forest Temple is simply within two trees of this species.
The Forest temple was probably designed by the Kokiri to protect the Fused Shadow, the locations are completely unrelated.

Last I checked, the only reason for why the Deku Tree had nothing to do with the fused shadow is because the fused shadow was irrelevant in OoT. The Deku Tree just never mentioned it. He had no reason to.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The Temple of Time and Forest Temple are not anywhere near to each other, the same applies to the grove and meadow. No meaningful or worthy similarities exist.

If we were talking about OoT, you would be correct. The Temple of Time and Forest Temple were nowhere near each other. But wait a minute, haven't you been trying to convince us the entire time that the Temple's location in OoT is retconned to being in the Lost Woods? So you're contradicting yourself. In TP, the Temple of Time is right next to what appears to be ruined buildings that could possibly be the ruins of OoT's Forest Temple. There is no way of denying the presence of the ruined structures around the Temple. Care to explain those, or are you just going to say "retcon" and pretend Hyrule Castle Town was in the Lost Woods in OoT?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The Temple was probably attacked, but the castletown was unaffected. No movement took place, but the forest overtook the Temple ruins.

If no movement took place, why is the Temple of Time in southernmost Hyrule while it is in the far north in OoT? How could the forest overtake the Temple ruins but leave Castle Town totally unaffected if no movement took place? Face it, the Temple of Time was moved to the Sacred Grove after OoT.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

No movement, no nearby locations of note. Simply a rewriting of what used to be true.

No. You don't have the right to simply make up your own facts about OoT. The Temple was in Castle Town during OoT, and is no longer there in TP.

In-Game evidence > You

I just looked at your map. There is no discernible forest south of Kakariko in TP. Also, you're trying to say that, in OoT, the Temple of Time WASN'T REALLY in Castle Town. So you're taking blatant in-game PROOF THAT IT WAS IN Castle Town, and calling it a lie. That's pretty arrogant. You can't rewrite in-game proof. Only the creators can do that.