Are The Twilight Mirror and the Dark Mirror the Same Thing?

Until very recently, I was certain they were, based on these four quotes.

Originally posted by Lanayru the Light Spirit
When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The land where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body. But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued. Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wieling powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm.

Originally posted by Midna
Do you remember what the Light Spirit said about the Fused Shadows? What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred Realm? They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and driven into another realm by the goddesses. It was another world entirely, the antithesis of Hyrule, where the sun shines bright. Its denizens became shadows that could not mingle with the light. Eventually mos came to call it the Twilight Realm, and from it, none could return to the world of light. They were forever doomed to live in the Twilight, flitting in the half-light of dusk, mere shadows of Hyrule. This is the history of the Twili as it has been passed down from our ancestors. Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left us one link between the light and the darkness. Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of Hyrule. It's our only link to the Twilight Realm, and we must get there. You'll come with me, won't you?

Originally posted by Dampe the Gravekeeper in FSA
Legends speak of a mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed away long ago.

Originally posted by The FSA Forest Maiden
Long ago, a dark tribe invaded Hyrule. They were defeated and imprisoned within the mirror. The tribe's mirror prison was then secreted away and hidden in the forest temple to sever its connections to their world. That Dark Mirror must never fall into the hands of those with evil hearts.

Upon closer examination of those quotes, I'm not so sure. The similarities between the invading tribes are undeniable, yet there are differences too. I have three points.

1. Midna's quote on the Twilight Mirror makes it clear that the Twili are in another world that is connected to Hyrule through the Twilight Mirror. According to Dampe and the Forest Maiden in FSA, there is a tribe literally sealed inside the Dark Mirror, not in another world.

2. The Forsest Maiden says that the Dark Mirror was hidden in the forest temple after the tribe was sealed in the mirror. The Twilight Mirror had its own chamber in the desert.

3. The Dark Mirror has properties that the Twilight Mirror does not have, such as spawning dark versions of Link and creating dark clouds when in evil hands.

Yes, there are similarities between the mirrors and their backstories that are hard to ignore, but because of these differences, I think we must believe that they are not the same mirrors.

~Ollathir

Originally Posted by Ollathir

1. Midna's quote on the Twilight Mirror makes it clear that the Twili are in another world that is connected to Hyrule through the Twilight Mirror. According to Dampe and the Forest Maiden in FSA, there is a tribe literally sealed inside the Dark Mirror, not in another world.

According to Jumbie (or maybe Jacen) the Japanese lacks the participle that says they are literally sealed IN the mirror.

2. The Forsest Maiden says that the Dark Mirror was hidden in the forest temple after the tribe was sealed in the mirror. The Twilight Mirror had its own chamber in the desert.

So what, it couldn't have been moved at a later date?

3. The Dark Mirror has properties that the Twilight Mirror does not have, such as spawning dark versions of Link and creating dark clouds when in evil hands.

The Twilight Mirror can create monsters or corrupt old existing things into monsters. Why not, when in Ganon's hands, is it possible for Dark Links to be spawned?

Oh and fun fact that Historian discovered and shared with me.
When he and I were looking through credits and figuring out who did what with each game, it terms out that the Script Writer (the one who has the most influence over the plot) for FSA and TP is the same guy. He's never written any other Zelda script but he did both of those games.

Twilight Princess and Four Swords Adventures are generally accepted as being set on different timelines (child and adult), so of course there will be some small differences. The history of the Dark Mirror was always given as vauge, so we can't say for sure, because the Twilight Mirror has an in-depth history.

About the Dark Links that the Dark Mirror spawns- Lanayru assosiated the Twili, who are assoisated with the Twilight Mirror, with Dark Links, and Dark Links are assosiated with the Dark Mirror. The Zuna are connected to the Dark Mirror, and they sort of look like... Twili. And they live... in the desert...

Originally Posted by Erimgard

According to Jumbie (or maybe Jacen) the Japanese lacks the participle that says they are literally sealed IN the mirror.


So what, it couldn't have been moved at a later date?


The Twilight Mirror can create monsters or corrupt old existing things into monsters. Why not, when in Ganon's hands, is it possible for Dark Links to be spawned?

Oh and fun fact that Historian discovered and shared with me.
When he and I were looking through credits and figuring out who did what with each game, it terms out that the Script Writer (the one who has the most influence over the plot) for FSA and TP is the same guy. He's never written any other Zelda script but he did both of those games.

And therefore, that is more evidence that Four Swords Advetnures is evidenced to be, yet again, on the adult timline- the the mirror still exists, meaning it can't be on the same timeline as Twilight Princess.

There is far too much evidence against Four Swords Advetnures being on the child timeline, and the mirror's existence is just one; the game references post-flood elements, its Hyrule Castle is exactly the same Hyrule Castle as from The Wind Waker, and it is an island, whereas Hyrule is surrounded by forests, mountains and other countries in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess (Ordona is part of another country south of Hyrule, for example). No coastline...

Originally Posted by Ollathir

1. Midna's quote on the Twilight Mirror makes it clear that the Twili are in another world that is connected to Hyrule through the Twilight Mirror. According to Dampe and the Forest Maiden in FSA, there is a tribe literally sealed inside the Dark Mirror, not in another world.

We see in ALttP and OoT that the Triforce was hidden in the Sacred Realm, which was literally another world. TWW and TP say that the power of the gods was somewhere in Hyrule. Discrepancy? Yes, but we know also that the Sacred Realm is "connected to Hyrule," so it is not without explanation.

Similarly, Vaati was shown to have been imprisoned inside the Four Sword, but the intro legend for FSA says he was imprisoned "deep in Hyrule," and that the sword was more like a seal to the prison, not the prison itself.

If these contradictions in description can exist while still describing the same scenario, I see no reason why the Mirror stories cannot be the same: the Mirror does seal the tribe inside itself, and they are shown to be in another world in TP, but it may be that the world itself is "inside" the reflection of the Mirror.

2. The Forsest Maiden says that the Dark Mirror was hidden in the forest temple after the tribe was sealed in the mirror. The Twilight Mirror had its own chamber in the desert.

The Twilight Mirror was in the execution place in TP because it was used to execute "a certain big criminal" [Ganondorf]. Ganondorf was not executed on both timelines; ergo the Twilight Mirror has no reason to be there on the Adult Timeline.

3. The Dark Mirror has properties that the Twilight Mirror does not have, such as spawning dark versions of Link and creating dark clouds when in evil hands.

1) The Twilight Mirror also creates dark versions of those whose power it affects. The "spawning" element really makes little sense anyway since Link never came in contact with the Dark Mirror until he recovered it in FSA, yet the Shadow Links were apparently his dark reflection.

2) Dark clouds? I could have sworn the spreading darkness was the effect of Ganon's power [the Trident], not the Mirror.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

According to Jumbie (or maybe Jacen) the Japanese lacks the participle that says they are literally sealed IN the mirror.

Actually, in a different quote it still tells us they are inside the Mirror after all.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

it terms out that the Script Writer (the one who has the most influence over the plot) for FSA and TP is the same guy.

Same girl actually.

My bad

Originally Posted by Erimgard

My bad

Check my other edit also

Actually, in a different quote it still tells us they are inside the Mirror after all.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

According to Jumbie (or maybe Jacen) the Japanese lacks the participle that says they are literally sealed IN the mirror.

I was wondering about that.

So what, it couldn't have been moved at a later date?

It doesn't sound like it could have been from the Forest Maiden's quote. From what she says, it sounds as though the mirror was put in the forest temple right after the tribe was sealed in it. In Twilight Princess, it seems that the mirror has been in the Mirror Chamber since its creation by the goddesses. hey created the mirror as a gateway beteween the Twilight Realm and Hyrule. The mirror has to "project" onto the big stone slab hanging in the chamber. In both games, it seems that the mirror has been in the same place (the chamber or the temple) since the tribe was sealed in it. This is the strongest evidence against the mirrors being the same thing.

The Twilight Mirror can create monsters or corrupt old existing things into monsters. Why not, when in Ganon's hands, is it possible for Dark Links to be spawned?

I guess that could be possible. It doesn't evidence the mirrors being the same though.

Oh and fun fact that Historian discovered and shared with me.
When he and I were looking through credits and figuring out who did what with each game, it terms out that the Script Writer (the one who has the most influence over the plot) for FSA and TP is the same guy. He's never written any other Zelda script but he did both of those games.

Interesting...

Being in different timelines and the whole thing with the flood might have changed the story slightly but the mirrors are too similar to regard it as a coincidence.

My guess is after Miyamoto upended the tea table, Aonuma brought this Script Writer back to make the story again for TP, explaining the similarities. Thus, another reason why they are the same Mirror, but with some differences. TP is the "true" story that the Script Writer had in mind.

And yeah I think Lex's right.
One FSA quote says they were sealed by it, one says in it.
But if they are in a world whose entrance is the Mirror, they're practically in it.

If I remember well, the Mirror of twilight was called mirror of darkness in the original japanese, wasn't it?

Mirror of Gloom

Gloom, darkness, sums up what the mirror causes in TP. The debate between sealed in it and sealed in a realm that is acessed by it is stupid. How many people were present when the Shadow Clan was sealed? I doubt we have any first person accounts other than the light spirits. Besides the stories could be altered over time.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Mirror of Gloom

Which, as I'll insist, is a synonym for darkness, but that also has connotations of melancholy.

Originally Posted by Ollathir

In Twilight Princess, it seems that the mirror has been in the Mirror Chamber since its creation by the goddesses. hey created the mirror as a gateway beteween the Twilight Realm and Hyrule. The mirror has to "project" onto the big stone slab hanging in the chamber. In both games, it seems that the mirror has been in the same place (the chamber or the temple) since the tribe was sealed in it.

I'll put it this way.

The mirror was in an execution place in TP.
The only known person to be "executed" with it was Ganondorf. [the Mirror was given to the Sages after the tribe was sealed ("chased by the gods," not executed), according to Midna]
Ergo, we can only deduce that it was in the execution place to serve the function it served in Ganondorf's execution.

what is it called in FSA? the japanese version...

Pretty sure it's Mirror of Darkness

Originally Posted by Lex

2) Dark clouds? I could have sworn the spreading darkness was the effect of Ganon's power [the Trident], not the Mirror.

They're actually made by dark Link.

Originally Posted by Olly

It doesn't sound like it could have been from the Forest Maiden's quote. From what she says, it sounds as though the mirror was put in the forest temple right after the tribe was sealed in it. In Twilight Princess, it seems that the mirror has been in the Mirror Chamber since its creation by the goddesses. hey created the mirror as a gateway beteween the Twilight Realm and Hyrule. The mirror has to "project" onto the big stone slab hanging in the chamber. In both games, it seems that the mirror has been in the same place (the chamber or the temple) since the tribe was sealed in it. This is the strongest evidence against the mirrors being the same thing.

The TM had no reason to be in the desert on FSA's timeline though. It was only brought to the desert because someone (Ganondorf) had to be executed by the ancient sages.

It's hard to prove that they are different, or that they are the same...

The Twilight Mirror was in the execution place in TP because it was used to execute "a certain big criminal" [Ganondorf]. Ganondorf was not executed on both timelines; ergo the Twilight Mirror has no reason to be there on the Adult Timeline.

one thing though, the Mirror of Twilight was not there for Ganon's execution,
it was never a part of the execution it was just used when the execution failed, the reason
it would be on either timeline is the pre-OoT interloper events

Originally Posted by Artemicion

If these contradictions in description can exist while still describing the same scenario, I see no reason why the Mirror stories cannot be the same: the Mirror does seal the tribe inside itself, and they are shown to be in another world in TP, but it may be that the world itself is "inside" the reflection of the Mirror.

Except that would mean Midna killed all of her people and herself in TP's ending by shattering the mirror, which makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The Twilight Mirror was in the execution place in TP because it was used to execute "a certain big criminal" [Ganondorf].

The Sages only planned to stab Ganondorf; the Mirror of Twilight was a desperate last resort.

Due to the fact that it's a heavily guarded fortress in a hostile desert, the Arbiter's Grounds is a great place to hide the Mirror of Twilight. Furthermore, the mirror has its own staircase and harness in the Arbiter's Grounds, suggesting that it was meant to actually be kept there instead of teleported in for Ganondorf's execution. The Mirror of Twilight was still in the Arbiter's Grounds a hundred years after Ganondorf's execution as well. Finally, there's this quote from Auru:

Originally Posted by Auru (Japanese Translation)

In the Gerudo Desert, there once was an execution place at which a certain big criminal was punished.

As I heard, that big criminal was sent to the other world by means of a cursed mirror kept at the execution place, and so on…

Nowadays that execution place is shut down, and even the road leading to the desert is cut off.

The desert which was separated from the world... left behind at that place was the mirror and the grudge of the deceased…

It's quite clear that the Mirror of Twilight was meant to be kept at the Arbiter's Grounds and not just teleported in for one occasion.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) The Twilight Mirror also creates dark versions of those whose power it affects.

Actually, that shard only made Yeta's face demonic. Armogohma and Argorok appear to be the mirror shards themselves.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Except that would mean Midna killed all of her people and herself in TP's ending by shattering the mirror, which makes no sense.

No she severs the Link between the two worlds. Midna and the others are okay they just can't ever return to Hyrule.