The Gerudo and the Twili. Any connection?

Back on the topic of the Twili and the Gerudo, I don't think Midna or Veran's red hair has anything to do with it. We can easily claim that Veran is a Twili because of her many design similarities to Midna, such as the red hair, light cyan-colored skin, and yellow eyes with red pupils, but I believe the Gerudo, being nomadic, probably just moved away from Hyrule in shame of the fact that their king was a cruel, sadistic creep who killed a Sage. Telma has many traits that may allude to a Gerudo origin, such as her tan skin and red hair, which leads me to believe that some Gerudo assimilated into Hylian culture.

The Interlopers, on the other hand, may have just been one race of completely different people, or not so much a race, but a political group who wanted to take over the Sacred Realm and were made up of many different races. They have the "eye" symbol on Midna's throne, the back of Midna's dress, and the back of the Fused Shadow, meaning they may have some connection to Vaati, who also has red pupils and posesses dark magic. If Vaati is a Twili, then he is one of a few Twili-like people who swore allegiance to Ganondorf. We have Zant, Veran, and Vaati whose races all share similarities, as mentioned above. Maybe the Interlopers, if the Twili and Zuna are one and the same, lived in the desert simultaneously with the Gerudo, and the two cultures held similar customs, explaining the Gerudo symbol on Zant's cloak.

I would say that there is no connection between the two races, since the Gerudo race seems to be abundant and intact in OoT.

If the interlopers were all gerudo, they would all be females in the twilight realm and they would be unable to breed and have descendants.

Even though I don't believe what I am about to post, recently I have been doing a bit of thinking about the possible Terminian/Twili connection. Naturally, we all know about the supposed 'Majora eye' upon the Fused Shadows, yet thinking back, I don't regard that as the only connection.

I think this is interesting. In the story of the Four Giants in Termina, Skull Kid was known to have been banished from Termina because he 'wronged all people'. The people of Termina apparently collectively recognised him as a menace, and the Giants, protectors of the people, banished the Skull Kid. We don't know when this happened exactly, but it was apparently an event that occured just after the creation of the 'four worlds' of Termina - a long time ago.

What is interesting is that Zant chooses to transform Midna into an Imp, and banish her. If there is a relation to the Terminians, her situation parallels that of Skull Kid' in the story of the Four Giants - it justifies Zant's specific choice of punishment - to turn her into a form that was already culturally humiliating.

Considering we have evidence that an organised group defied the Goddesses prior to Ocarina Of Time (Stone Tower), and the above similarities, perhaps inhabitants of Termina were the magic weilders from Lanayru' story. Interestingly, when Midna first recieves the Shield from Ordon, she attempts to wear it like a mask.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

What is interesting is that Zant chooses to transform Midna into an Imp, and banish her. If there is a relation to the Terminians, her situation parallels that of Skull Kid' in the story of the Four Giants - it justifies Zant's specific choice of punishment - to turn her into a form that was already culturally humiliating.

Considering we have evidence that an organised group defied the Goddesses prior to Ocarina Of Time (Stone Tower), and the above similarities, perhaps inhabitants of Termina were the magic weilders from Lanayru' story. Interestingly, when Midna first recieves the Shield from Ordon, she attempts to wear it like a mask.

It's an interesting theory, but we really don't have any real concrete evidence to believe the Twili are at all connected to Termina without making up random speculation. I now believe the Twili and Zuna are one and the same, and because the Zuna come from the desert, they may have very many cultural similarities to the Gerudo, explaining Zant's Gerudo symbol.

And I honestly don't see any similarities at all between the Fused Shadow and Majora's Mask, and the similar "eye" isn't enough to convince me. The only real similarities between the people of Termina who built the Stone Tower Temple and the Twili is that they both, as Ganondorf put it, "defied the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside."

Zant's Gerudo symbol isnt evidence at all, considering he is working under Ganondorf's dominion through the course of the game.

No, you are ignoring the evidence in regard to Midna's banishment. The people of Termina, in the past, collectively recognised the 'Imp' as culturally negative. It would directly explain Zant's choice of punishment. What I am saying is that the eye is not a hint between Majora's Mask - Fused Shadows, but rather a hint between Skull Kid - Midna.

To understand what I am saying, you need to be familiar with the story of the 'Four Giants' from Majora's Mask. It explains a snippet of Termina's past.

We have an implike character, masked, who was banished. That description fits both Midna and Skull Kid perfectly. The link is Zant's action of transforming her into an Imp. If there is any chance that the Twili are related to the Terminians, Zant's choice of the Imp form and banishment is suspect.

I think the fact that they are known to have defied the Gods as very strong evidence. Although that is only if we must find a group to fit the description of the Twili. My actual opinion is that we don't really have enough evidence to connect them to anyone.

Zant's Gerudo symbol isnt evidence at all, considering he is working under Ganondorf's dominion through the course of the game.

This is explained many times why it's still evidence- in the cut scene BEFORE Zant meets Ganondorf he still has the symbol.

^I was already privy to that, River Zora. We only see that symbol on Zant in one short sequence prior to his meeting with Ganondorf, and uniformly after (and always). I doubt that Nintendo would warrant a change of costume for that one scene. It can be interpreted both ways, and the strongest known connection Zant has with the Gerudo is Ganondorf in the context of Twilight Princess.

The symbol's use in one snippet, despite a context that would explain it's use elsewhere, is not proper evidence of a connection with the Gerudo, from my perspective. Because that evidence is so weak, I need another implied connection.

jjiejboelioneyiuribee

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

The symbol's use in one snippet, despite a context that would explain it's use elsewhere, is not proper evidence of a connection with the Gerudo, from my perspective. Because that evidence is so weak, I need another implied connection.

And yet you have no problem accepting the slight eye similarity between Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow, and the fact that Midna was turned into an imp, as evidence? Those are pretty small details. It looks to me like you're just picking and choosing which evidence to believe, because Midna being turned into and imp is just as weak.

Being turned into an imp would be insulting to ANY culture, and likely has nothing to do with Terminians, because the Twili are never implied to have any sort of connection to Termina. The fused shadow looks nothing like Majora's Mask. They're not even remotely similar. You complain that Zant's Gerudo symbol is not strong enough evidence, but continue to talk about one little eye on a helmet and mask.

Zant's symbol, on the other hand, is just that; a symbol. It has a meaning and it's a symbol we've seen before. It's a tangible piece of evidence that we can use, not like a little eye shape on a mask or the fact that Midna was turned into an imp as an insult, which, as said before, would be an insult to a person of ANY culture.

What I am saying is that the eye is not a hint between Majora's Mask - Fused Shadows, but rather a hint between Skull Kid - Midna.

First off, Skull Kid stole the Mask long AFTER the Fused Shadow was created. The two masks have nothing to do with one another. The Twili couldn't possibly know anything about Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask, because Skull kid just stole Majora's Mask one day. He had nothing to with its creation or the transformation of Midna into an imp. He and Midna share no connection. Also, the tribe that used Majora's Mask chose to seal the evil themselves, whereas the Fused Shadows were forcibly taken by the light spirits of Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Link92

And yet you have no problem accepting the slight eye similarity between Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow, and the fact that Midna was turned into an imp, as evidence? Those are pretty small details. It looks to me like you're just picking and choosing which evidence to believe, because Midna being turned into and imp is just as weak.

The evidence is there, although we don't know where it is directed, and I accept that. The symbol is a weaker connection, and that is something I have already demonstrated. Wether or not it is viable for theory or easter egg status, the parallels between Skull Kid and Midna exist strongly enough to have been intentional on the part of Nintendo.

Being turned into an imp would be insulting to ANY culture, and likely has nothing to do with Terminians, because the Twili are never implied to have any sort of connection to Termina.

The latter is correct, and the reason for my skeptisism on the entire topic of the Twili. My actual opinion is that they cannot be firmly connected to any single group. However, anyone familiar with the 'Four Giants' story (told by Anju's Grandmother while wearing the all-night mask) would easily notice the association of the 'Imp' as negative throughout the story, and recognised by all Terminians affected. It is specific to Termina, and the stories of Skull Kid and Midna do parallel each other in many respects, too much to ignore. What this means in terms of theory is difficult to discern, but once again, I see intention from Nintendo.

The fused shadow looks nothing like Majora's Mask. They're not even remotely similar.

I agree. Stop misinterpriting my argument. My position is not Fused Shadows - Majora's Mask, rather, Skull Kid - Midna. The latter has an array of unavoidable similarities.

You complain that Zant's Gerudo symbol is not strong enough evidence, but continue to talk about one little eye on a helmet and mask.

Youre wrong, and obviously havent been reading my arguments fluently.

Zant's symbol, on the other hand, is just that; a symbol. It has a meaning and it's a symbol we've seen before.

His strongest connection to the Gerudo is Ganon in the context of Twilight Princess. That is what I regard it to mean.

It's a tangible piece of evidence that we can use, not like a little eye shape on a mask or the fact that Midna was turned into an imp as an insult, which, as said before, would be an insult to a person of ANY culture.

But a Masked Imp, Banished to a higher land (Skull Kid to the 'heavens', presumably Hyrule, akin to Midna), and the only known race of that time to have defied the Gods?

First off, Skull Kid stole the Mask long AFTER the Fused Shadow was created.

Skull Kid has a long history in Termina, going back even to before the Giants were guardians. Anyone who knows Majora's Mask well, knows this. Additionally, Majora's Mask - The Mask, is not at the core of my argument at all.

The two masks have nothing to do with one another.

That doesnt affect my theorising. The Mask and the Shadows are not at all the core of my theory. Stop misinterpriting.

The Twili couldn't possibly know anything about Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask, because Skull kid just stole Majora's Mask one day.

You are obviously not familiar with the story of the Four Giants. Skull Kid has been active in Termina before, long ago, to noteworthy historical affect. Perhaps you should check a text dump.

He had nothing to with its creation or the transformation of Midna into an imp. He and Midna share no connection.

Read the story of the 'Four Giants'. Of course Skull Kid has no direct relation to Midna, I am atalking about his affect on Terminian culture. The relation between Midna and Skull Kid is through strangely similar events, not a direct connection.

Also, the tribe that used Majora's Mask chose to seal the evil themselves, whereas the Fused Shadows were forcibly taken by the light spirits of Hyrule.

That is a valid point.

Is there any connection between Gohdan, The Great Arbiter (WW Tower of the Gods boss)
and the Arbiter's Grounds (in TP)?

just want to point something out, the original ocarina of time used the original gurudo symbol, a moon and star. it wasnt until the ootmq, that the newer symbol was used. since the oracle games used the current symbol before the guerdo symbol was changed, it changes the theory dramaticly

Only from the fact Gohdan is a judge and the Grounds are where people are judged.

Arbiter=one who decides=judge.

I was wondering if maybe Arbiter's Grounds may have had a similar machine at some point,
running the prison perhaps

EDIT: Speaking of machines, the Dominion Rod makes certain statues into "Robots"
if Zelda can have robots and not be futuristic sci-fi, that's a pretty good indicator that the
series could stay in the "middle ages" or at least in the age of swordsmanship

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Is there any connection between Gohdan, The Great Arbiter (WW Tower of the Gods boss)
and the Arbiter's Grounds (in TP)?

Probably not, but Gohdan and Mazaal are most certainly related in some fashion...




Mazaal was created by the Wind Tribe, and Gohdan dwells a dungeon that is thought to have been created by the Oocca, also sky beings...

Wasn't there a similar "hands & head" machine in Oracle of Ages?

EDIT: and the King of Hyrule had ties to the Wind Tribe...

Yep- Ramrock.

I'd say just common themes. I don't take enemy/bosses very seriously with connections. If they have a good existing idea why bother making a new one?

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

the parallels between Skull Kid and Midna exist strongly enough to have been intentional on the part of Nintendo.

How? Just because they're both imps?

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

However, anyone familiar with the 'Four Giants' story (told by Anju's Grandmother while wearing the all-night mask) would easily notice the association of the 'Imp' as negative throughout the story, and recognised by all Terminians affected. It is specific to Termina, and the stories of Skull Kid and Midna do parallel each other in many respects, too much to ignore.

If Midna is turned into an imp, that means the imp is not specific to Terminian culture. Also, the stories of Skull Kid and Midna don't parallel each other at all. Skull Kid has always been an imp. The only reason he was hated is because of his attitude. Midna, on the other hand, was TURNED INTO an Imp as an insult by Zant, because Zant was mad about not having the throne. They don't parallel each other in any way.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

I agree. Stop misinterpriting my argument. My position is not Fused Shadows - Majora's Mask, rather, Skull Kid - Midna. The latter has an array of unavoidable similarities.

Unavoidable similarities? They're both imps. That's it. No other similarities.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

His strongest connection to the Gerudo is Ganon in the context of Twilight Princess. That is what I regard it to mean.

He had that symbol before meeting Ganon. That isn't developer laziness, because the developers changed Zelda's, Link's, and many other characters' outfits throughout the course of the game without any problems. Midna was shown without the Fused Shadow on her head in a cutscene. Why would Zant be any different? Because he has some connection to that symbol, and has had said connection since before meeting Ganon.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

But a Masked Imp, Banished to a higher land (Skull Kid to the 'heavens', presumably Hyrule, akin to Midna), and the only known race of that time to have defied the Gods?

The mask had nothing to do with Skull Kid's banishment. He was banished from Termina long before coming into posession of the Mask, and Midna found the Fused Shadow AFTER being turned into an imp by Zant. Midna being turned into an imp had nothing to do with Majora's Mask or the Fused Shadow, so your comparison of Skull Kid and Midna both wearing masks holds no weight.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

You are obviously not familiar with the story of the Four Giants. Skull Kid has been active in Termina before, long ago, to noteworthy historical affect. Perhaps you should check a text dump.

Don't be rude. I know plenty about the backstory of MM. I don't need a text dump, because, like you, I've played through the game. Skull Kid wearing a Mask has absolutely nothing to do with Midna wearing the helmet, as Skull Kid was banished long before ever being associated with Majora's Mask.

Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

Of course Skull Kid has no direct relation to Midna, I am atalking about his affect on Terminian culture. The relation between Midna and Skull Kid is through strangely similar events, not a direct connection.
That is a valid point.

Name some similar events. Skull Kid was banished for being a stupid jerk, not for being an imp. Midna was banished for being the ruler of the Twilight Realm. Their stories are not similar at all.

Originally Posted by Link92

How? Just because they're both imps?

No, they have strong similarities of theme because their situations were akin. Masked Imp, banished to a higher realm. When these events occured is not the crux of my point, the crux is that Nintendo couldnt have made these similarities unintentionally, whatever their perogative.

If Midna is turned into an imp, that means the imp is not specific to Terminian culture.

Prior to that time in the Zelda gameworld, it was. And a few specifics occured to both characters.

Also, the stories of Skull Kid and Midna don't parallel each other at all.

Lets avoid the use of the word parallel, because the parallel itself has little relevance here. Their collective stories are similar. Banishment to a higher realm. Masked Imps. Nintendo must have noted this similarity. What reason? That I am not asserting.

Skull Kid has always been an imp.

As far as we see him ingame, yes of course. I agree. I'm quite familiar with Majora's Mask.

The only reason he was hated is because of his attitude. Midna, on the other hand, was TURNED INTO an Imp as an insult by Zant, because Zant was mad about not having the throne. They don't parallel each other in any way.

Read. I am not arguing that they Parallel each other in terms of the 'Parallel'. My argument is thus: Termina considers the Imp a strong negative focus in their culture beause of Skull Kid's actions during the story of the 'four Giants'. This happened a long time ago, and if the Terminians were related to the Twili somehow (which the triforce blasphmeny supports slightly), it explains Zant's choice of punishment. That is my argument.

Unavoidable similarities? They're both imps. That's it. No other similarities.

Masked Imps, Banished to a higher realm, both Mask items holding the eye motif. I think the similarities were intentional on the part of Nintendo, but I do not know for what cause.

He had that symbol before meeting Ganon. That isn't developer laziness, because the developers changed Zelda's, Link's, and many other characters' outfits throughout the course of the game without any problems.

Is there a similar situation with another character? From memory Zant only has that symbol on his clothing before meeting Ganondorf for mere seconds of cutscene. Considering all scenes with that symbol are in relation to Ganondorf including the chronological first, I doubt the validity of your argument.

The mask had nothing to do with Skull Kid's banishment.

I am aware of that. What is the relevance? I am merely saying the stories of both characters relate. Timing of the events isnt really imperative, I think that Nintendo used a few similairites as a nod to Skull Kid, not a direct ingame affiliation.

He was banished from Termina long before coming into posession of the Mask

I know that, it doesnt affect my ideas whatsoever.

and Midna found the Fused Shadow AFTER being turned into an imp by Zant.

See above^, about timing. I am talking correlation of theme, something expected from Nintendo when they are using image to reference.

Midna being turned into an imp had nothing to do with Majora's Mask or the Fused Shadow, so your comparison of Skull Kid and Midna both wearing masks holds no weight.

It's a shame you still havent grasped what I am saying. I am not claiming that there is an explicit, tangible link. I think that the similarities are a reference on the part of Nintendo. And the similarities are strong enough.

Don't be rude.

Don't slander, I wasn't being rude.

Skull Kid wearing a Mask has absolutely nothing to do with Midna wearing the helmet, as Skull Kid was banished long before ever being associated with Majora's Mask.

See above about 'Nintendo' and 'Reference'.

I just had a thought. Sure, the Gerudo and the Twili might not be related, but think about this.

When you cure all the Twili from being turned into Shadow Beasts, go up to them and see how they sound. If you don't notice this, then maybe you won't see my point.

There are really only 2 or 3 males out of the 10 or 11 of them. The rest are all females and children. You can tell by the way they moan. And what do the children's moan sound like? That's right: females. Recall that very few men are born into Gerudo lineage.

One other theory I came up with is that maybe the Gerudo were the Dark Interlopers described in Lanayru's story. They had allied themselves with the original Twili and became the Dark Interlopers, probably also given the order to steal the Triforce for Ganondorf.

After the Sages sealed Ganondorf, they tried to seal the Dark Interlopers as well. By killing the original Twili, the Dark Interlopers lost their power, so they were sealed in the Twilight Realm. Then, suddenly, Ganondorf appeared and gave them their powers back. He then disappeared as a ball of twilight in hiding. Then Midna came along, as one of the descendents of the banished ones.

So, Midna could be a descendent of a Gerudo and an original Twili, but it does sound kinda phoney.