ALttP's BS ≠ OoT's Adult events

NOTE: This post is being recycled from some other thread in the hopes
of discussing it in a thread that is not too "off-topic". If that is bad, a
MOD can delete it. Whatever, I think it is time this forum came to
grips with the thought that "ALttP's BS ≠ OoT's Adult events"

Ah, the old debate resurfaces, first off we ignore everything in SNES Zelda,
and focus on GBA ALttP as canon. Which leads to the following conclusions:

1) Hyrule Castle was not attacked in the GBA backstory, instead the Sages
were sent to seal the SR with the Knights of Hyrule for protection

2) Because of the interlopers, there were monsters, because either A) The
power of the fused shadow turns races into monsters (as evidenced by Darbus
and the yeti's wife) or B) The interlopers can corrupt the SR just as well as
Ganondorf

3) The GBA backstory EXPLICITLY states that the Sages were sent to
seal the entrance because of the evil coming OUT of the SR, not to lock
someone (Ganon/dorf) away INTO the SR.

4)While the monster part "cannot be said for the interloper war" the Sages seal in
the ALttP backstory fits nothing better.

5) The WHOLE IDEA that the Sages seal in the ALttP backstory
tells us how OOT Ganon was trapped in the SR until ALttP is
BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER by
WW on the AT (Ganon escapes the SR -oops!)
and TP on the CT (Ganon is trapped in the TR and then killed -oops!)

6) Clearly, the whole purpose of the GBA rewrite is to eliminate all connections
between Ganon and the Sages seal that were found in the SNES version

PWNED FOREVER! JUST LET IT DIE!!!

P.S. The SR was 'cleansed' (if you think the interlopers corrupted it) when
the Light Spirits banished the interlopers into the TR

Still think that ALttP's BackStory refers to the Adult events in OOT?
Nintendo sunk that ship.

First of all I would like to say I agree with this claim. Nevertheless, let's debunk the arguments in this piece of writing.

1) Hyrule Castle was not attacked in the GBA backstory, instead the Sages
were sent to seal the SR with the Knights of Hyrule for protection

It was attacked on the CT most likely as well, however, depending on how far back you think Link goes. Ganondorf's plot presumably continues and his 'something outrageous' was likely an attack on castle and even in the child section of OoT he chases Zelda and Impa from the castle. Inconsistencies on both sides.

2) Because of the interlopers, there were monsters, because either A) The
power of the fused shadow turns races into monsters (as evidenced by Darbus
and the yeti's wife) or B) The interlopers can corrupt the SR just as well as
Ganondorf

I agree they can cause evil to flow from the sacred realm and it's a reasonable assumption, BUT it is never actually stated in the sam way that they ever actually reached the Triforce. It's massively implied by Lanayru, but not actually said outright like Ganon is known to have.

3) The GBA backstory EXPLICITLY states that the Sages were sent to
seal the entrance because of the evil coming OUT of the SR, not to lock
someone (Ganon/dorf) away INTO the SR.

Good point- it is a massive difference, however again most would consider the implication enough to link the games.

4)While these "cannot be said for the interloper war" the Sages seal in
the ALttP backstory fits nothing better.

Not quite sure to what this sentence refers...

5) The WHOLE IDEA that the Sages seal in the ALttP backstory
tells us how OOT Ganon was trapped in the SR until ALttP is
BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER by
WW on the AT (Ganon escapes the SR -oops!)
and TP on the CT (Ganon is trapped in the TR and then killed -oops!)

I would agree with you 100% because I think if Ganon did have a part in the SW then it is far too heavily implied for us to think it could possibly be a different Ganon in game. BUT not everyone will agree with you and theories regarding Ganon's spirit not dying mean its still possible.

6) Clearly, the whole purpose of the GBA rewrite is to eliminate all connections
between Ganon and the Sages seal that were found in the SNES version

Clearly no- it could be for a number of reasons. Even making it simpler so it could fit OoT better.

PWNED FOREVER! JUST LET IT DIE!!!

Well that just eliminated all of your credibility.

P.S. The SR was 'cleansed' (if you think the interlopers corrupted it) when
the Light Spirits banished the interlopers into the TR

Again, I agree that when the Triforce is reformed and returns to the SR outside of evil influence it gets cleansed, but as I said- there is nothing solid to say the Interlopers ever reached it and nothing to say it got cleansed afterwards other than speculation.

Hmmmm, interesting theory, the more i think about it the SW is looking less and less like OOT, it probably is either a result of the interloper war or an event that occurs after TP, i kinda like the idea of MC, OOT, ALTTP, and TP's backstories all referencing the same or adding onto, the stories of the others.

1) The GBA backstory simply says that the Sages were summoned to seal the evil (true in OoT) and that the Knights died in defense against monsters (true in OoT).

2) According to the story of the Interlopers, the shadow tribe used the power of the Fused Shadows rather like Midna did (according to the Japanese, they used it to "become enormously huge"). Nothing about turning things into monsters, certainly nothing about monsters coming out of the Sacred Realm. Also, Zant was only able to "corrupt" due to Ganondorf's power (shadow crystals), if you recall from TP, so I seriously doubt that any widespread corruption took place due to the Shadow Clan.

3) Only OoT shows "evil coming out of the Sacred Realm," not any other known story in the Hyrule mythos (except perhaps FSA), and certainly not the Shadow Clan story.

4) It doesn't fit OoT, where evil does come out of the Sacred Realm, monsters do exterminate Hyrule's soldiers, and Sages are summoned to seal the evil away and succeed in doing so? Better yet, you think the Interloper war matches this description better? It seems to me that you are grasping at straws.

5) This only if you assume that OoT was supposed to tell us how ALttP's Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm to begin with - which seems like a pretty faulty assumption considering that in ALttP Ganon was sealed with the entire Triforce, and in OoT he only has Power. Yet despite this, OoT was still considered the IW - so the relationship between OoT and ALttP must not have been as people thought, and thus nothing about that relationship was blown out of the water by TWW. There always needed to be another story that set up for Ganon getting the entire Triforce.

6) Which couldn't have been because all of these story details were moved into OoT's story?

The SR was 'cleansed' (if you think the interlopers corrupted it) when
the Light Spirits banished the interlopers into the TR

1) There's no proof that the interlopers corrupted it.
2) The interlopers were said to have been sealed away from the Light World, not from the Sacred Realm.

Ah, the old debate resurfaces, first off we ignore everything in SNES Zelda,
and focus on GBA ALttP as canon. Which leads to the following conclusions:

1) Hyrule Castle was not attacked in the GBA backstory, instead the Sages
were sent to seal the SR with the Knights of Hyrule for protection

2) Because of the interlopers, there were monsters, because either A) The
power of the fused shadow turns races into monsters (as evidenced by Darbus
and the yeti's wife) or B) The interlopers can corrupt the SR just as well as
Ganondorf

3) The GBA backstory EXPLICITLY states that the Sages were sent to
seal the entrance because of the evil coming OUT of the SR, not to lock
someone (Ganon/dorf) away INTO the SR.

4)While these "cannot be said for the interloper war" the Sages seal in
the ALttP backstory fits nothing better.

5) The WHOLE IDEA that the Sages seal in the ALttP backstory
tells us how OOT Ganon was trapped in the SR until ALttP is
BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER by
WW on the AT (Ganon escapes the SR -oops!)
and TP on the CT (Ganon is trapped in the TR and then killed -oops!)

6) Clearly, the whole purpose of the GBA rewrite is to eliminate all connections
between Ganon and the Sages seal that were found in the SNES version

PWNED FOREVER! JUST LET IT DIE!!!

P.S. The SR was 'cleansed' (if you think the interlopers corrupted it) when
the Light Spirits banished the interlopers into the TR

1) So?

3) They still created a seal on the SR.

Evil came out of the SR. Ganon = evil. Ganon came out of the SR. Therefore evil came out of the SR.

6) Clearly, the whole purpose of the GBA rewrite is to eliminate all connections
between Ganon and the Sages seal that were found in the SNES version

Clearly? How is this so clear?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) The GBA backstory simply says that the Sages were summoned to seal the evil (true in OoT) and that the Knights died in defense against monsters (true in OoT).

Actually, for all we know, Ganondorf personally destroyed Castle Town and Hyrule Castle after acquiring the Triforce of Power, so the only thing about the Knights we can confirm in OoT is that they died (though enough remained for TWW's backstory).

Originally Posted by Artemicion

5) This only if you assume that OoT was supposed to tell us how ALttP's Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm to begin with - which seems like a pretty faulty assumption considering that in ALttP Ganon was sealed with the entire Triforce, and in OoT he only has Power. Yet despite this, OoT was still considered the IW - so the relationship between OoT and ALttP must not have been as people thought,

Nintendo also said that OoT Ganon was ALttP Ganon back then (something which has been made impossible due to TWW and TP) so it's a bad idea to assume that they always planned to make a second game to set the Triforce up specifically for ALttP.

Regarding Cukeman's topic, I also doubt that ALttP's backstory is OoT at this point, but I do not believe that the backstory refers to the ancestors of the Twili. I believe that after FSA Ganon escaped the Four Sword (which, judging from the Palace of the Four Sword, was moved into the Sacred Realm), claimed the Triforce, and then things played out as they did in the SNES manual of ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) The GBA backstory simply says that the Sages were summoned to seal the evil (true in OoT) and that the Knights died in defense against monsters (true in OoT).

False. It states that they sealed away evil coming FROM the SR. Therefore
it cannot be OOT Ganon. You keep ignoring the details of the story...

Originally Posted by Artemicion

4) It doesn't fit OoT, where evil does come out of the Sacred Realm, monsters do exterminate Hyrule's soldiers, and Sages are summoned to seal the evil away and succeed in doing so? Better yet, you think the Interloper war matches this description better? It seems to me that you are grasping at straws.

How does it POSSIBLY fit OoT? No "Knights" protect the Sages, all that
happens is that those worthless soldiers of Hyrule die...also the Sages seal
(in OoT) is cast from INSIDE the SR, in the Chamber of Sages. Clearly
there are not on the outside of the SR with the Knights sealing something
in... Trying to make OoT into ALttP's backstory shows that YOU are
the one grasping at straws, my friend.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

5) This only if you assume that OoT was supposed to tell us how ALttP's Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm to begin with - which seems like a pretty faulty assumption considering that in ALttP Ganon was sealed with the entire Triforce, and in OoT he only has Power. Yet despite this, OoT was still considered the IW - so the relationship between OoT and ALttP must not have been as people thought, and thus nothing about that relationship was blown out of the water by TWW. There always needed to be another story that set up for Ganon getting the entire Triforce.

Of course he didn't have the whole Triforce yet, but he got it after FSA,
and before ALttP. Not only are there implications that TP leads into ALttP,
OoT STILL can't be the back story because it is so different.

---

As for the other quotes I did not repeat here, I know there is no mention of
monsters in the interloper story, that is (plausible) speculation. But you can't
just shoot the idea down unless you have something to contradict it.

Originally Posted by Sign-of-Madness

...Evil came out of the SR. Ganon = evil. Ganon came out of the SR. Therefore evil came out of the SR. Clearly? How is this so clear?

In OoT Ganon was sent INTO the SR when the Sages cast their seal,
he wasn't coming out, he did that 7 years ago...

PWNED FOREVER! JUST LET IT DIE!!!

lol, but no if Miyamoto took a break from being serious and said that,
his other content would be just as believable

Oh, dear god, here we go again...

Ah, the old debate resurfaces, first off we ignore everything in SNES Zelda,
and focus on GBA ALttP as canon. Which leads to the following conclusions:

That's what we all have been doing for the past few years and we reached different conclusions. Why are yours any better?

1) Hyrule Castle was not attacked in the GBA backstory, instead the Sages
were sent to seal the SR with the Knights of Hyrule for protection

Wrong assumption. No attacks to the castle are mentioned in the LttP bs, which doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, OoT - as it has been confirmed to be the same story as LttP bs - proved that the castle was indeed raided and destroyed by Ganon.

The Sages sealed the SR in OoT, so no comments on that. As for the knights, they were in OoT and were killed by ganon, remember?

2) Because of the interlopers, there were monsters,

WHAT?!
The monsters came from the SR in OoT, the same wa as it was told in LttP bs! Notice that, except for normal animals and the stalchildren, most enemies only appeared in the adult part of the game. Moblins are the best example...

because either A) The
power of the fused shadow turns races into monsters (as evidenced by Darbus
and the yeti's wife)

what does this have to do with OoT?

or B) The interlopers can corrupt the SR just as well as
Ganondorf

*facepalm*

PURELY FANFICSIZED INFORMATION

3) The GBA backstory EXPLICITLY states that the Sages were sent to
seal the entrance because of the evil coming OUT of the SR,

And what exactly did they do in OoT?
Ganondorf corrupted the SR, monsters came from out of it, tthe sages sealed all monsters and ganon in the SR...

not to lock someone (Ganon/dorf) away INTO the SR.

How on earth do you think Ganon ended up locked in the SR in LttP?!

There is a reason why the war was called Imprisoning War, you know...

4)While the monster part "cannot be said for the interloper war" the Sages seal in
the ALttP backstory fits nothing better.

A matter of personal (yours) opinion with no basis to prove it...

5) The WHOLE IDEA that the Sages seal in the ALttP backstory
tells us how OOT Ganon was trapped in the SR until ALttP

Prove it. I want one single quote from LttP saying that Ganon has been sealed since the SW...

is BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER by
WW on the AT (Ganon escapes the SR -oops!)
and TP on the CT (Ganon is trapped in the TR and then killed -oops!)

And a new Ganon rises in FSA bs and, guess what, is sealed in the SR with the MS in the end of the game...

6) Clearly, the whole purpose of the GBA rewrite is to eliminate all connections
between Ganon and the Sages seal that were found in the SNES version

So "clearly" that they completely forgot to tell players that. This is another matter of personal opinion. Whoever wrote this should be ashamed to list this as evidence for LttP bs =/= OoT...

PWNED FOREVER! JUST LET IT DIE!!!

Probably written by a noob...

P.S. The SR was 'cleansed' (if you think the interlopers corrupted it)

Please give me one single quote about the Interlopers EVER entering the SR...

when the Light Spirits banished the interlopers into the TR

Can't see the connection there, care to explain?

GAHHHHHHH, i give up! Now i don't know what to believe! Neither side fits without speculation!

Well, if there were any sides.

OoT has been confirmed to be the SW in 1998 and nobody has been able to give any conclusive piece of evidence proving that the intent changed, so...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

False. It states that they sealed away evil coming FROM the SR. Therefore it cannot be OOT Ganon.

The Sages in OoT also sealed evil coming from the Sacred Realm - it was said that Ganon's evil, which had corrupted the Sacred Realm, was seeping into Hyrule through the temples, and the Sages sealed away this evil along with Ganon.

How does it POSSIBLY fit OoT? No "Knights" protect the Sages, all that
happens is that those worthless soldiers of Hyrule die...also the Sages seal
(in OoT) is cast from INSIDE the SR, in the Chamber of Sages. Clearly
there are not on the outside of the SR with the Knights sealing something
in... Trying to make OoT into ALttP's backstory shows that YOU are
the one grasping at straws, my friend.

1) If all of Hyrule's soldiers died, wouldn't that mean that the Knights (who are among Hyrule's soldiery) died by proxy?
2) Isn't Link himself a Knight, and doesn't he fight to protect the Sages?
3) Where the Sages are when they cast the seal really makes no difference as to whether they cast a seal to trap evil in the realm.
4) Toru Osawa, the man who wrote OoT's story, says it's the IW - so we know he crafted the story to match the IW.

Of course he didn't have the whole Triforce yet, but he got it after FSA,
and before ALttP. Not only are there implications that TP leads into ALttP,
OoT STILL can't be the back story because it is so different.

What implications? Besides there being a pedestal in the forest with the Master Sword (there are at least five games with swords in pedestals in the woods).

As for the other quotes I did not repeat here, I know there is no mention of monsters in the interloper story, that is (plausible) speculation. But you can't just shoot the idea down unless you have something to contradict it.

I do - the story you're saying the Interloper story represents was already represented in OoT.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Actually, for all we know, Ganondorf personally destroyed Castle Town and Hyrule Castle after acquiring the Triforce of Power, so the only thing about the Knights we can confirm in OoT is that they died (though enough remained for TWW's backstory).

1) If OoT was written as the IW, it's obvious that the extermination of Hyrule's soldiers was scripted to represent the same scenario from the IW.
2) The knights in TWW can be a different group of knights.

Nintendo also said that OoT Ganon was ALttP Ganon back then (something which has been made impossible due to TWW and TP) so it's a bad idea to assume that they always planned to make a second game to set the Triforce up specifically for ALttP.

Nintendo still said that all Ganons were the same even after TWW and FSA were made.

That's right he said all Ganon's were the same which could be support for the Ganon and Ganondorf aren't the same being arguement. Still trying to decide whether to revert to my original or stick with my current timeline.

1) If all of Hyrule's soldiers died, wouldn't that mean that the Knights (who are among Hyrule's soldiery) died by proxy?
2) Isn't Link himself a Knight, and doesn't he fight to protect the Sages?
3) Where the Sages are when they cast the seal really makes no difference as to whether they cast a seal to trap evil in the realm.
4) Toru Osawa, the man who wrote OoT's story, says it's the IW - so we know he crafted the story to match the IW.

1) maybe, no evidence of any knights before or after Ganon's attack that caused
Impa to fled

2)Link MAY be a knight, but his is not "knights" PLURAL. It specifically says
that MANY knights died AS the Sages cast their seal, not 7 years before!

3) it makes a big difference, but we won't agree on this aspect

4) outdated reference

Originally Posted by Smertios

...

when you post something relevant that I have not already answered I will reply...lol

Originally Posted by Cukeman

1) maybe, no evidence of any knights before or after Ganon's attack that caused
Impa to fled

Define a knight. If the king himself is never shown in game, why would we need the knights to be shown just to prove they died??

2)Link MAY be a knight, but his is not "knights" PLURAL. It specifically says
that MANY knights died AS the Sages cast their seal, not 7 years before!

You do realize that stories suffer distortions with time, right? And that in the Zelda series there are more distortions than plain continuation storylines, right?

The "as" you mention is just a way to show that the knights died and the sages sealed the SR in the same event, not that they were happening at the exact same time.

3) it makes a big difference, but we won't agree on this aspect

Can you provide me a quote from LttP saying exactly the place in which the sages cast the seal? I didn't find any last time I checked. I did it in a hurry though, so I could be wrong...

4) outdated reference

And you are the one who decides that? provide a more recent develope rquote saying that OoT is no longer the SW and you have a point, otherwise it's just a mater of personal opinion that goes against the last confirmed piece of information.

when you post something relevant that I have not already answered I will reply...lol

You probably read 2 replies and decided you have adressed to all my points already, right? Well, read my post again. Ignoring someone else is not the best form of debating.

Feel free to ignore the things you have already adressed to in Lex's posts, btw. Those are few compared to all points I had there...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

1) maybe, no evidence of any knights before or after Ganon's attack that caused Impa to fled
2)Link MAY be a knight, but his is not "knights" PLURAL. It specifically saysthat MANY knights died AS the Sages cast their seal, not 7 years before!
3) it makes a big difference, but we won't agree on this aspect
4) outdated reference
when you post something relevant that I have not already answered I will reply...lol

1. wasn't there a knight in the alleyway dying?
2. where does it say that, and OOT could change that aspect slightly
3.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

1) maybe, no evidence of any knights before or after Ganon's attack that caused Impa to fled

Which is exactly why the Hylian Shield is said to be the shield used by the knights ;D (see the description)

2)Link MAY be a knight, but his is not "knights" PLURAL. It specifically says that MANY knights died AS the Sages cast their seal, not 7 years before!

Many knights died in the "battle," but hundreds of years after OoT, how many people would know that there was seven years in between the battle and the casting of the seal?

And again, that's how the script writer of OoT intended it.

3) it makes a big difference, but we won't agree on this aspect

The IW story never says "the Sages were in Hyrule when they cast their seal," so I don't really get why it's such a big difference.

Regardless, the man who wrote OoT wrote it specifically to be the IW, so his interpretation trumps yours.

4) outdated reference

OoT's script is to my knowledge not outdated at all as no other game has retconned anything in it, so anything the writer says about it still goes as far as I'm concerned. We say ALttP's is outdated because things contained there no longer fit among more recent games - like OoT, TWW, FSA, TP, etc. (ex: the Dark World was not created by Ganon's wish according to OoT)

Originally Posted by Artemicion

2) Isn't Link himself a Knight, and doesn't he fight to protect the Sages?

Nothing actually suggests that OoT Link is a Knight. He's an orphan from the forest who was entirely self-taught, and he was removed from the timeline at the end of OoT to boot, so he can't continue the bloodline there.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) If OoT was written as the IW, it's obvious that the extermination of Hyrule's soldiers was scripted to represent the same scenario from the IW.

OoT also featured three Sages not being human, even though the bloodline mentioned in ALttP was a literal one and all of the Maidens were human.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

2) The knights in TWW can be a different group of knights.

They're referred to in exactly the same way as the Knights from ALttP's backstory, suggesting that they are the same group of Knights.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Nintendo still said that all Ganons were the same even after TWW and FSA were made.

In a reincarnated manner at best. When Nintendo said OoT Ganon was ALttP Ganon, they clearly meant the same exact guy ages later, not a new representation of him.

You can't say that the ALttP backstory is distorted!

We are told the version of the story before any distortion took place
"when these events were distorted by the mists of time and became legend"

I used to be a staunch opponent of euthanasia, until I heard the theory that
the ALttP backstory = the AT events of OoT...lol

We aren't covering any new ground here...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

You can't say that the ALttP backstory is distorted!

We are told the version of the story before any distortion took place
"when these events were distorted by the mists of time and became legend"

I'll put it this way: in the Japanese, instead of a line saying the legend was distorted, the legend itself is told with language that suggests it is told from a secondhand source. So the line applies to the backstory, not just to other characters.