ALttP's BS ≠ OoT's Adult events

Oh, and btw, I was never opposed to the OoT text, just what that developer guy said

EDIT:

^I have no knowledge of japanese versions, so pardon my ignorance of that, and thanks
for revealing that to me

I see that the strategy for saying that the ALttP BS = the events of OoT
is to discount the ALttP backstory as inaccurate. But one thing you cannot
work your way around is that Agahnim is working to undo the Sages SR
seal by eliminating the maiden descendants of the Sages. Since these are
all human girls, we have to realize that the seal Agahnim is undoing is the
seal of the ancient Hylian Sages. Six Hylian or partly-Hylian girls are not the
descendants of the OoT Sages: 2 Hylians, 1 Goron, 1 Gerudo, 1 Zora,
1 Kokiri, and 1 Sheikah...

Also, I want to know why Nintendo bothered to change the text from the SNES
version. If it is an inaccurate legend in the first place, then it would not matter
what it said...

Also, I have heard that the line about the ALttP backstory being "obscured by
the mists of time" was not in the Japanese version, but isn't it possible that
NoA added it to help American gamers get a grasp of the timeline? I can
believe that NoA made stuff up in the early days, but that was a long time ago,
surely by now they are in closer contact with NoJ...the thought also crossed my
mind that maybe Japanese gamers don't worry about the timeline, and those
extra additions by NoA are to explain the timeline to the American audience,
who is very demanding about knowing what the timeline is. (Maybe Japanese
gamers are interested in the timeline, I don't know.)

The Gorons are the only problem i see here. They could have retconned that in OOT. In more recent times it doesn't seem like the sages become sages through any particular bloodline. Hell the one sage is shorter than the others which could be a reference to Saria.

I know that Sages don't have to be descended from Sages...

...I'm not even claiming that the ALttP maidens ARE Sages...
but nevertheless they are definitely descendants

...implications that TP leads into ALttP...

What implications? Besides there being a pedestal in the forest with the Master Sword (there are at least five games with swords in pedestals in the woods).

Most of us agree that ALttP happens after OoT-
so is it post-TP or post-WW?

1) In WW the Master Sword is implanted in Ganondorf's stone
body under the Great Sea...

2) In TP the Master Sword is in a pedestal in the ToT ruins deep
in the forest...

Now, I may not be a rocket scientist, but maybe, just maybe I can figure
out which one better fits ALttP...hmmm.....hmm....???

Then we have the additional evidence of stone ruins engraved with the
old Hylian language (translated by the Book of Mudora) The only way
these could exist in a post-WW world is on mountain tops, yet these
are also found in bottom land...

sure some characters in WW understand the old language (darned few)
but why would they make NEW monuments in the old language...no, they
would be in the new langauge, the old language is just used for legendary
characters to converse, and monuments are meant to be read by whoever
finds them, and you increase the chances with the most current language
I just don't buy it that ALttP follows WW

EDIT: Of all the games with swords in the forest, only games with the
MASTER SWORD in the forest apply...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I see that the strategy for saying that the ALttP BS = the events of OoT is to discount the ALttP backstory as inaccurate.

Wait, what?

But one thing you cannot work your way around is that Agahnim is working to undo the Sages SR seal by eliminating the maiden descendants of the Sages. Since these are all human girls, we have to realize that the seal Agahnim is undoing is the seal of the ancient Hylian Sages. Six Hylian or partly-Hylian girls are not the descendants of the OoT Sages: 2 Hylians, 1 Goron, 1 Gerudo, 1 Zora, 1 Kokiri, and 1 Sheikah...

The japanese says successors, or something like that, not descendants. Like, those were going to be the next people to awaken as sages...

Also, I want to know why Nintendo bothered to change the text from the SNES version. If it is an inaccurate legend in the first place, then it would not matter what it said...

What text are you referring to exactly? Except for mistranslations, I don't recall any other text being changed...

Also, I have heard that the line about the ALttP backstory being "obscured by the mists of time" was not in the Japanese version, but isn't it possible that NoA added it to help American gamers get a grasp of the timeline?

Major LOL

And since when does NoA know the timeline? And since when do they care? Because if they do, they have done a terrible job "helping" theorists by changing all texts into things that they didnt originally mean...

I can believe that NoA made stuff up in the early days, but that was a long time ago, surely by now they are in closer contact with NoJ...the thought also crossed my mind that maybe Japanese gamers don't worry about the timeline, and those extra additions by NoA are to explain the timeline to the American audience, who is very demanding about knowing what the timeline is. (Maybe Japanese gamers are interested in the timeline, I don't know.)

They don't know the story of the game. They can't help like that :/

It doesn't matter how hard you try, the american version will never be more canon than the japanese.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I know that Sages don't have to be descended from Sages...

...I'm not even claiming that the ALttP maidens ARE Sages...
but nevertheless they are definitely descendants

Not in the japanese, IIRC...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Most of us agree that ALttP happens after OoT-
so is it post-TP or post-WW?

1) In WW the Master Sword is implanted in Ganondorf's stone
body under the Great Sea...

If you consider deflooding, we have the MS ending carved in a stone in the end of TWW and the same way in the start of LttP...

2) In TP the Master Sword is in a pedestal in the ToT ruins deep
in the forest...

The forest is just in a completely different position...

Now, I may not be a rocket scientist, but maybe, just maybe I can figure out which one better fits ALttP...hmmm.....hmm....???

LttP also mentions an old Hylian language dying and being replaced. Only one other game refers to that as well. Wanna guess which one it is?

Then we have the additional evidence of stone ruins engraved with the old Hylian language (translated by the Book of Mudora) The only way
these could exist in a post-WW world is on mountain tops, yet these
are also found in bottom land...

Deflooding....

sure some characters in WW understand the old language (darned few) but why would they make NEW monuments in the old language...no, they would be in the new langauge, the old language is just used for legendary characters to converse, and monuments are meant to be read by whoever finds them, and you increase the chances with the most current language I just don't buy it that ALttP follows WW

I agree, but I never claimed that they did. Anyway, why do we still use latin then??

I see that the strategy for saying that the ALttP BS = the events of OoT is to discount the ALttP backstory as inaccurate.

Wait, what?

I mean that you have to say the US GBA ALttP BS parts about the Knights,
the evil coming out of the SR (instead of into it) etc, are distorted because if
you take them literally they don't = OoT

The japanese says successors, or something like that, not descendants. Like, those were going to be the next people to awaken as sages...

I'll have to take your word on the Japanese, but descendants are successors,
(though successors are not necessarily descendants)

What text are you referring to exactly? Except for mistranslations, I don't recall any other text being changed...

Ganon was omitted, and the details about the seal are interesting,
sealed evil coming OUT OF the SR, not into the SR, etc.

about NoA

it was just a thought

It doesn't matter how hard you try, the american version will never be more canon than the japanese.

You misunderstand...I am not referring to one text versus it's translation,
I am referring to EXTRA ADDITIONS.

Additions can be canon, under certain circumstances:

A) They are not contrary to the Japanese
and/or
B) The added content has official approval from NoJ

If you consider deflooding, we have the MS ending carved in a stone in the end of TWW and the same way in the start of LttP...

Deflooding??? LOL! The whole point of placing ALttP on the AT is to say
that it is in a 'new Hyrule', but okay, let's discuss it for ***** and grins

1) I admit that the Triforce can revive Hyrule, but then you have to ignore
the WW Deku Tree's quote about connecting the islands, so it's a no-go

2) In ALttP the MS seems to be in the Pedestal of Time...and the SNES
manual text mentions the ToT "These buildings, which now lie in ruin pale
shadows of their former splendor, are closely tied to the Triforce. Some were
said to house the Triforce itself..." -SNES ALttP Manual

3) In the WW, the Temple of Time is long gone, and the MS is left on top of
Ganon's Tower...not on the forest floor, and certainly not in a pedestal

Hyrule is never 'unflooded'

The forest is just in a completely different position...

And Zora's Domain swaps with Death Mountain from OoT to TP
what's your point?

LttP also mentions an old Hylian language dying and being replaced. Only one other game refers to that as well. Wanna guess which one it is?

Yeah, no crap, but all the reasons I mentioned outweigh that one factor
-but I don't even need to outweigh it, on the CT ALttP still happens long
enough after OoT to facilitate a language change

I agree, but I never claimed that they did. Anyway, why do we still use latin then??

Who still uses Latin? That's a dead language. (I had to take a Latin class)
The only use I know of where Latin is used is in getting at old documents
in their original language, for educational exercise, and nostalgic use on
American money

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I mean that you have to say the US GBA ALttP BS parts about the Knights,
the evil coming out of the SR (instead of into it) etc, are distorted because if
you take them literally they don't = OoT

That depends on the point of view. The knights really died in OoT, evil came out of the SR (remember the moblins that only appeared after Ganon entered the SR?), etc. They do match OoT.

I'll have to take your word on the Japanese, but descendants are successors, (though successors are not necessarily descendants)

Exactly, so the maidens didn't have to be from the same race as the seven sages...

Ganon was omitted,

And what's the problem with that? After TWW, they no longer had OoT Ganon being the same as LttP Ganon. Mentioning him in the LttP bs made it look like it was the same being, when it was not. That's why they took it off...

and the details about the seal are interesting, sealed evil coming OUT OF the SR, not into the SR, etc.

Ganon got his monters from the SR after he corrupted it in OoT, so all evil (monsters) that came to Hyrule came from the Sr. i don't see your point there.

You misunderstand...I am not referring to one text versus it's translation,
I am referring to EXTRA ADDITIONS.

Additions can be canon, under certain circumstances:

A) They are not contrary to the Japanese
and/or
B) The added content has official approval from NoJ

It has official approval from NoJ just ecause it is the same company. the story writers don't read the translations at all. If the additions were revised and authorized by the story writers, they would be valid, but the story writers can't know about such additions in order to consider them when writing the next story.

NoA just adds those so the text looks better...

Deflooding??? LOL! The whole point of placing ALttP on the AT is to say that it is in a 'new Hyrule', but okay, let's discuss it for ***** and grins

It is a new Hyrule, built on top of the old one. And deflooding doesn't necesserily mean the water level is going down. The land itself could be rising and covering the bottom of the ocean, connecting the islands. That's what i think the GDT meant with its speech...

1) I admit that the Triforce can revive Hyrule, but then you have to ignore the WW Deku Tree's quote about connecting the islands, so it's a no-go

The ToX can restore Hyrule? Where did you get that from??

2) In ALttP the MS seems to be in the Pedestal of Time...and the SNES manual text mentions the ToT "These buildings, which now lie in ruin pale shadows of their former splendor, are closely tied to the Triforce. Some were said to house the Triforce itself..." -SNES ALttP Manual

Until TWW was released, OoT was supposed to lead directly into LttP. And where does it say that it is the temple of time in LttP's forest? I don't see any ruins there.

3) In the WW, the Temple of Time is long gone, and the MS is left on top of Ganon's Tower...not on the forest floor, and certainly not in a pedestal

It is carved in a stone in the end of the game, remember?

Hyrule is never 'unflooded'

Reason?

And Zora's Domain swaps with Death Mountain from OoT to TP
what's your point?

There are no geographical similarities between TP and LttP. You chose the fact that the sword is in the woods to prove that LttP follows TP in the CT, but you are forgetting that TP was made using ideas from almost all previous zelda games. Like the mirror from FSA, the floating dungeon from TMC, the hidden village from AoL etc etc.. And, of course, the sword in the woods from LttP.

Yeah, no crap, but all the reasons I mentioned outweigh that one factor -but I don't even need to outweigh it, on the CT ALttP still happens long enough after OoT to facilitate a language change

The why not mention a language change in TP, as they did in TWW? That's clearly a major connection between TWW and LttP. And adding to that the fact that OoT was confirmed to be LttPbs, I don't think you outweighted anything.

In fact you didn't even give a good enough reason why LttP can't come after TWW yet...

Who still uses Latin? That's a dead language. (I had to take a Latin class) The only use I know of where Latin is used is in getting at old documents in their original language, for educational exercise, and nostalgic use on American money

Exactly, latin is a dead language and is still widely used. All Vatican documents are issued in Latin, for example. Mottos are normally in latin as well. And many places gain latin names. There is even a version of wikipedia in Latin!

So I suppose your argument that people wouldn't use old hylian to write on buildingd because it was dead isn't a good one. Even though I don't think they did either...

Cukeman have you ever seen smertios's geography thread? It's really very interesting.

Well, Smertios, we've gone in circles long enough I think,
I think I've put your evidence down, and you seem to think
you've put mine down...we're about done here

Oni Dark Link, I've made many geography comparisons myself, I can
easily explain how we've only seen old Hyrule, but it's all in the interpretation

Originally Posted by Smertios

It is carved in a stone in the end of the game,

huh?

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Well, Smertios, we've gone in circles long enough I think,
I think I've put your evidence down, and you seem to think
you've put mine down...we're about done here

We are not running in circles.

Why are people starting discussions and then leaving them once I provide evidence against their theories today?

Oni Dark Link, I've made many geography comparisons myself, I can
easily explain how we've only seen old Hyrule, but it's all in the interpretation

I agree, although I spent several years building my comparisons for that thread. I have yet to see someone make a geo thread that good...

huh?

Running away? You aren't offering new points to debate...

LOL that picture proves nothing! how did his head become a pedestal?

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Running away? You aren't offering new points to debate...

I asked a lot of questions you didn't answer in the last post on the debate, see?

LOL that picture proves nothing! how did his head become a pedestal?

carved...

Originally Posted by Smertios

I asked a lot of questions you didn't answer in the last post on the debate, see?

I did answer them before, you didn't accept my
explanations...what can I say?

Originally Posted by Smertios

carved...

So his 2-3 foot wide body was carved into a 6-10 ft flat surface,
I know that isn't sculpturally possible, and how did they remove
Ganon's Tower out from under him?

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I did answer them before, you didn't accept my
explanations...what can I say?



So his 2-3 foot wide body was carved into a 6-10 ft flat surface,
I know that isn't sculpturally possible, and how did they remove
Ganon's Tower out from under him?

I suppose other rocks were also used to build the pedestal.

As for the second question, excavations...

Personally, I find that farfetched, especially when TP...ALttP is such a simpler explanation,
but that's just me

Another hero could have needed it and after he was done they put it in a pedastal hidden in the woods.

The Temple of Time couldn't have just been crushed by the flood, leaving the same pedestal among its ruin?

Better yet - it couldn't have been on high ground?

That pedastal seems to hold up pretty well, it was still there in TP after several centuries of being exposed to the elements, my theory: since it's the pedastal of time it doesn't age or erode over time.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Personally, I find that farfetched, especially when TP...ALttP is such a simpler explanation,
but that's just me

Then why don't we need the three pendants to pull th sword in TP?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Another hero could have needed it and after he was done they put it in a pedastal hidden in the woods.

I doubt that. What other hero would be able to pull the sword like that??

Maybe ST can have the MS being retrieved from underwater though...