Revised Timeline theory

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Also, in terms of the "cleansing" - I maintain that even though Ganon is dead and the Triforce in good hands in OoX, the Dark World still exists.

That makes no sense. In ALttP we are told that Ganon's death results in the destruction of the Dark World, with the alternative being that a good person wishing on the Triforce will destroy the Dark World. in OoX we know that Ganon is dead. We also know that a good person apparently wished on the Triforce for it to be in Hyrule Castle. Additionally, in LoZ Ganon is killed and in AoL Link wishes on the Triforce. In all of these instances the Dark World of ALttP should have reasonably been eradicated.

Originally Posted by Slagr

and the appearance of Tingle in random games throughout the series? Force gems were a gimmick and the fact that they are effectively the same as rupees and never appear or are mentioned in other games makes them irrelevant.
WW.

Force Gems are actually very important to the FS trilogy as well as PH. They are the source of all magical power in Hyrule (this is what the "Light Force" actually is). In every game spanning PH and the FS trilogy they are simply referred to as "Force". They're more important than you are making them out to be.

Originally Posted by River Zora

In AoL's story Hyrule is called Islands NOT continents. 'The Triforce of courage is hidden in the Great Palace on the largest Island in Hyrule.

Also there is a sea between Death Mountain area (LoZ map) and the rest of AoL map.

the text dumps only say "island" three times, and never in reference to the main landmasses. Also consider the scale; Outpost island is one of the largest islands in WW, and it only has one small town. AoL's continent has many large town scattered over very great distances. Islands do not get that big.

Also, consider that the eastern landmass may be the largest island in relation to Maze Island and the Island Palace. There's no reason to believe that the western landmass is an island.

Additionally, the sea between Spectacle Rock does not sever the sand completely and is most likely an odd retcon which was refixed by LttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

If Nintendo really believed in such a literal interpretation of TWW's message of letting go of the past, two of the games that followed wouldn't have been shallow rehashes of ALttP and OoT.

I think that they were looking to allow for the AT to serve as a line where they can vary the gameplay while retaining the Zelda namesake and spirit. All my CT games are classic running around Hyrule, saving Zelda and such. My AT has only WW and PH, and I feel that, like the sailing gimmick of those two, the train thing is an attempt to mix it up without making the hardcore fans angry.

TP and FSA are only shallow rehashes if you don't consider them conncted to LttP. Heck, TP is the same game as LttP, but references OoT. It's a perfect bridge regardless of what you want the SW to be, and the SW does not outwiegh everything TP-LttP has going for it. The same goes for FSA to some extent.

Regardless, an in-game quote with obvious literal meaning does not lose credit by out-of-game behavior of developers.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Roc Thul

Force Gems are actually very important to the FS trilogy as well as PH. They are the source of all magical power in Hyrule (this is what the "Light Force" actually is). In every game spanning PH and the FS trilogy they are simply referred to as "Force". They're more important than you are making them out to be.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...verything.html

they are pretty fairly akin to rupees as seen in TP. I still feel that the state of the MS trumps the state of the Force Gems.

Originally Posted by Slagr

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...verything.html

they are pretty fairly akin to rupees as seen in TP. I still feel that the state of the MS trumps the state of the Force Gems.

It depends. Like your article says, the Force (not necessarily "gems") manifests itself in different forms. For instance, in TMC we do not see the Force in gem form, but it is implied it is there (and it was in the Four Sword anyhow).

Originally Posted by Slagr

the text dumps only say "island" three times, and never in reference to the main landmasses. Also consider the scale; Outpost island is one of the largest islands in WW, and it only has one small town. AoL's continent has many large town scattered over very great distances. Islands do not get that big.

Also, consider that the eastern landmass may be the largest island in relation to Maze Island and the Island Palace. There's no reason to believe that the western landmass is an island.

Additionally, the sea between Spectacle Rock does not sever the sand completely and is most likely an odd retcon which was refixed by LttP.

I think that they were looking to allow for the AT to serve as a line where they can vary the gameplay while retaining the Zelda namesake and spirit. All my CT games are classic running around Hyrule, saving Zelda and such. My AT has only WW and PH, and I feel that, like the sailing gimmick of those two, the train thing is an attempt to mix it up without making the hardcore fans angry.

TP and FSA are only shallow rehashes if you don't consider them conncted to LttP. Heck, TP is the same game as LttP, but references OoT. It's a perfect bridge regardless of what you want the SW to be, and the SW does not outwiegh everything TP-LttP has going for it. The same goes for FSA to some extent.

Regardless, an in-game quote with obvious literal meaning does not lose credit by out-of-game behavior of developers.

they are pretty fairly akin to rupees as seen in TP. I still feel that the state of the MS trumps the state of the Force Gems.

Maybe AOL's map is more of a giant landmass than an island, the water could have receded as well. The AT seems to be where the FS games occur when you factor in the coast their connection to PH and the lack of the MS.
Shiggy wanted all ties between ALTTP and FSA to be severed and didn't want them to occur in the same timeframe, that along with the evidence for ALTTP-CT FSA-AT is very strong. If the state of the MS trumps FG than the FS games have to happen on the AT because of the use of a different sword!

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Maybe AOL's map is more of a giant landmass than an island, the water could have receded as well.

or maybe the water was always there; Termina has a coast and is nowhere near WW in time.

The AT seems to be where the FS games occur when you factor in the coast their connection to PH and the lack of the MS.

the coast is only proof of post-WW if you believe that the only way for water to exist is by flooding. The connection to PH is weak at best; I have tMC first, thus allowing the Force to exist on both sides. And, as I said before, the MS is not lacking in FSA. There is a sign that says, "Master Sword ahead" near FSA Kakariko.

Shiggy wanted all ties between ALTTP and FSA to be severed and didn't want them to occur in the same timeframe,

you still haven't proved that he wanted that. All we know is that he did not want FSA=SW, not that he didn't want FSA-LttP. There is as much proof for FSA-LttP as there is for OoT-TP.

that along with the evidence for ALTTP-CT FSA-AT is very strong.

there is absolutely no evidence for anything to be placed after PH without disastrous flaws.

If the state of the MS trumps FG than the FS games have to happen on the AT because of the use of a different sword!

like I said, again, the MS exists during FSA. A sign in the game says so. Besides, all that storyline evidence I posted earlier? Did you even read that?

Rather then attacking you on your timeline as Erimgad is already doing, explain

Okay i've finally seen the light! I now realize the problems with all my theories. Therefore i'm changing my timeline from:
........WW/PH-LOZ/AOL-OOX-MC-FS/FSA-ALTTP/LA
....../
OOT
......\
........MM-TP

these "problems" to me NOW.

Originally Posted by Slagr

or maybe the water was always there; Termina has a coast and is nowhere near WW in time.
the coast is only proof of post-WW if you believe that the only way for water to exist is by flooding. The connection to PH is weak at best; I have tMC first, thus allowing the Force to exist on both sides. And, as I said before, the MS is not lacking in FSA. There is a sign that says, "Master Sword ahead" near FSA Kakariko.
you still haven't proved that he wanted that. All we know is that he did not want FSA=SW, not that he didn't want FSA-LttP. There is as much proof for FSA-LttP as there is for OoT-TP.
there is absolutely no evidence for anything to be placed after PH without disastrous flaws.
like I said, again, the MS exists during FSA. A sign in the game says so. Besides, all that storyline evidence I posted earlier? Did you even read that?

Yes but termina is a different land, hyrule is described, at least i think it can be interpreted this way, as being landlocked. MC first has flaws as well, you have to account for ridiculous geographic inconsistencies and explain how it could happen when OOT established hyrule as being only ten years old. Again, it was late in development that they decided to change the game from being ALTTP esque to WW esque, it was a little hard for them to take out all but the most important connections, why can't anything be placed after PH MC's geography looks very little like the geography in any other game and link and tetra were searching for a new land. Which evidence are you referring to i haven't been on in a while.

Edit: saw your post pinecove, Okay so we know after WW the MS is lost at the bottom of the ocean, how is it suddenly in a forest by ALTTP? OOX likely occurs alongside ALTTP due to the similarities and Twinrova being dead on the AT. LA follows suit no matter what it's a sequel to.
The FS games make no mention of the triforce or MS in their storylines therefore it's likely they occur after the flood has wiped memory of them. LOZ/AOL most likely occur on the AT because of the Waterlogged AOL map, it also has nine towns five named after sages, PH we see the graves of six sages and three others the names of which could have inspired the naming of the towns. I believe there's more but i'll address that later.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Yes but termina is a different land, hyrule is described, at least i think it can be interpreted this way, as being landlocked.

it's described as being surrounded by forests and mountains, which does not mean there isn't an ocean around. "Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for amber fields of grain... for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain" is a good example of the same general concept; America has an ocean on either side, but also plains and mountains.

MC first has flaws as well, you have to account for ridiculous geographic inconsistencies

there is a thread on page 4 or 5 of Theorizing that covered this. "tMC-OoT for dummies, a reference for the rest of us" or something. It's pretty good.

and explain how it could happen when OOT established hyrule as being only ten years old.

unified Hyrule is only ten years old. The King of Hyrule unified the races by OoT, and we don't see Zoras or Gerudo in tMC. The kingdom is not united. The Fierce Wars could conceivably be due to the appearance of the aforementioned races in the kingdom.

Again, it was late in development that they decided to change the game from being ALTTP esque to WW esque, it was a little hard for them to take out all but the most important connections,

but the most important connects are still there. The only thing removed is the SW. FSA Ganon is still LttP Ganon, the geography is still identical, and the castles are still identical for example.

why can't anything be placed after PH MC's geography looks very little like the geography in any other game and link and tetra were searching for a new land.

they were looking for a new land that would not be Hyrule, unless you want to disregard an obviously literal statement by the King of Hyrule. tMC's geography is better suited to tMC-OoT-FSA than tMC-FSA. See the thread.

Which evidence are you referring to i haven't been on in a while.

The Ganon of LttP has his origin shown in FSA, along with the Trident, Thieve's Town, "Master Sword ahead!" sign, seven maidens/sage descendants, identical castles, and sufficiently similar geography all link the two games. This a rough list I just threw together. There's more, but most are logic based and conflict avoiding rather than absolute proof, like the Gerudo in FSA but not in WW/PH or tMC.

Okay i've finally seen the light! I now realize the problems with all my theories. Therefore i'm changing my timeline from:
........WW/PH-LOZ/AOL-OOX-MC-FS/FSA-ALTTP/LA
....../
OOT
......\
........MM-TP

these "problems" to me NOW.

No one in WW knew anything about OoT Hyrule, and it seems completely impossible that the SW legend could last all that way until LttP, the MS is underwater after WW and reappears for some reason, and the fact that any place called "Hyrule" with so many cultural and geographical similarities to Old Hyrule can not be a different place considering Daphnes' clearly specific statement. To have a line like that, you basically regard only OoT=SW and ignore every logical flaw and piece of contradictory evidence which I'm not about to compile for you. You've seen it all but still cling to OoT=SW for some reason.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

The FS games make no mention of the triforce or MS in their storylines therefore it's likely they occur after the flood has wiped memory of them.

or maybe tMC makes no note of it because it's before the War or just plain irrelevant. Like the FSS games, MM makes no note of the TF. Is it post flood? If the TF doesn't matter, no one is going to start yakking about it to you.

LOZ/AOL most likely occur on the AT because of the Waterlogged AOL map,

I already explained this. come on, dude.

it also has nine towns five named after sages,

no one in WW knew anything about OoT Hyrule, and Link and Tetra did not know the sages' names. The town names were an indicator back before WW, but WW made it impossible.

PH we see the graves of six sages and three others the names of which could have inspired the naming of the towns.

I haven't played PH much, but the Hylian sages didn't go to PH's area as far as I'm aware. Again, no one knew their names.

Originally Posted by Slagr

it's described as being surrounded by forests and mountains, which does not mean there isn't an ocean around. "Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for amber fields of grain... for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain" is a good example of the same general concept; America has an ocean on either side, but also plains and mountains.
there is a thread on page 4 or 5 of Theorizing that covered this. "tMC-OoT for dummies, a reference for the rest of us" or something. It's pretty good.
unified Hyrule is only ten years old. The King of Hyrule unified the races by OoT, and we don't see Zoras or Gerudo in tMC. The kingdom is not united. The Fierce Wars could conceivably be due to the appearance of the aforementioned races in the kingdom.
but the most important connects are still there. The only thing removed is the SW. FSA Ganon is still LttP Ganon, the geography is still identical, and the castles are still identical for example.
they were looking for a new land that would not be Hyrule, unless you want to disregard an obviously literal statement by the King of Hyrule. tMC's geography is better suited to tMC-OoT-FSA than tMC-FSA. See the thread.
The Ganon of LttP has his origin shown in FSA, along with the Trident, Thieve's Town, "Master Sword ahead!" sign, seven maidens/sage descendants, identical castles, and sufficiently similar geography all link the two games. This a rough list I just threw together. There's more, but most are logic based and conflict avoiding rather than absolute proof, like the Gerudo in FSA but not in WW/PH or tMC.
No one in WW knew anything about OoT Hyrule, and it seems completely impossible that the SW legend could last all that way until LttP, the MS is underwater after WW and reappears for some reason, and the fact that any place called "Hyrule" with so many cultural and geographical similarities to Old Hyrule can not be a different place considering Daphnes' clearly specific statement. To have a line like that, you basically regard only OoT=SW and ignore every logical flaw and piece of contradictory evidence which I'm not about to compile for you. You've seen it all but still cling to OoT=SW for some reason.

I'm just saying FSA's hyrule is the only one with a coast which is interesting, the gorons were declining but are on the rise which seems to imply the flood wiped most of them out. I debated frequently on that thread and some of the arguements made me change my timeline. Yet in MC it's called HYRULE TOWN! Those similarities for FSA-ALTTP, are trumped by the MS's absense. Again they have little to no significance on the story so they can be ignored. I never said FSA and MC were the same hyrule. The gerudo don't appear in TP either you do realize that? Couldn't link and tetra have named it hyrule in honor of the ancient land?

Originally Posted by Slagr

And, as I said before, the MS is not lacking in FSA. There is a sign that says, "Master Sword ahead" near FSA Kakariko.

like I said, again, the MS exists during FSA. A sign in the game says so. Besides, all that storyline evidence I posted earlier? Did you even read that?

Oh my. Do you happen to have pics of such a sign? This could drastically change some things.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

I'm just saying FSA's hyrule is the only one with a coast which is interesting,

LoZ/AoL also have a coast, and you can't see far enough to the south or east in OoT/TP to know what's over there. A hint; most rivers open into oceans, and TP's Ordon has a south-flowing river which needs somewhere to go, and tMC's Lake Hylia has a drainage flow to the east. This implies an ocean on one or both sides as seen in LoZ. Again, a coast does not imply a flood.

the gorons were declining but are on the rise which seems to imply the flood wiped most of them out.

Or, maybe they had just arrived in Hyrule like how the Gerudo/Zoras hadn't yet in tMC. They are prosperous by OoT and continue to be so through TP and FSA.

I debated frequently on that thread and some of the arguements made me change my timeline. Yet in MC it's called HYRULE TOWN!

I explained this already.

Those similarities for FSA-ALTTP, are trumped by the MS's absense.

no they're not, and the MS is not absent. The sign.

Again they have little to no significance on the story so they can be ignored.

Um, Ganon's backstory isn't relevant? Seriously?

I never said FSA and MC were the same hyrule.

they pretty much have to be.

The gerudo don't appear in TP either you do realize that?

There are people with Gerudo traits, while WW has no one with any remote resemblance to them.

Couldn't link and tetra have named it hyrule in honor of the ancient land?

no, because Daphnes specifically said it would not be Hyrule. A literal quote>empty speculation.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Roc Thul

Oh my. Do you happen to have pics of such a sign? This could drastically change some things.

not at present nor am I very able to get pics right now, but I can find something later. If you'd like to comb youtube videos for it I suppose you could. I'm planning on playing FSA again sometime soon.

Originally Posted by Slagr

EDIT: not at present nor am I very able to get pics right now, but I can find something later. If you'd like to comb youtube videos for it I suppose you could. I'm planning on playing FSA again sometime soon.

I'm going to start playing my copy to look for it.

Originally Posted by Slagr

LoZ/AoL also have a coast, and you can't see far enough to the south or east in OoT/TP to know what's over there. A hint; most rivers open into oceans, and TP's Ordon has a south-flowing river which needs somewhere to go, and tMC's Lake Hylia has a drainage flow to the east. This implies an ocean on one or both sides as seen in LoZ. Again, a coast does not imply a flood.
Or, maybe they had just arrived in Hyrule like how the Gerudo/Zoras hadn't yet in tMC. They are prosperous by OoT and continue to be so through TP and FSA.
I explained this already.
no they're not, and the MS is not absent. The sign.
Um, Ganon's backstory isn't relevant? Seriously?
they pretty much have to be.
There are people with Gerudo traits, while WW has no one with any remote resemblance to them.
no, because Daphnes specifically said it would not be Hyrule. A literal quote>empty speculation.

EDIT:
not at present nor am I very able to get pics right now, but I can find something later. If you'd like to comb youtube videos for it I suppose you could. I'm planning on playing FSA again sometime soon.

Just because they open to an ocean doesn't mean there's a coast right next to hyrule.
See i place FSA on the AT, they could have recently arrived there, either way the goron thing makes WW-MC probable.
The sign is not a part of the main story, if it wasn't there would your opinion change?
Wait you mentioned...oh i accidentally ignored the Ganon's BS part sorry.
You've obviously never heard of the Hyrule Proper, New Hyrule theory have you?
Nobody resembles Gerudo? What about Astrid, Jolene, Joanne, and Zauz, i don't see anybody on the CT that looks like a gerudo!
It would not be old hyrule=the land of his people, they could name it hyrule in honor of the ancient land.

Edit: saw your post pinecove, Okay so we know after WW the MS is lost at the bottom of the ocean, how is it suddenly in a forest by ALTTP? OOX likely occurs alongside ALTTP due to the similarities and Twinrova being dead on the AT. LA follows suit no matter what it's a sequel to.
The FS games make no mention of the triforce or MS in their storylines therefore it's likely they occur after the flood has wiped memory of them. LOZ/AOL most likely occur on the AT because of the Waterlogged AOL map, it also has nine towns five named after sages, PH we see the graves of six sages and three others the names of which could have inspired the naming of the towns. I believe there's more but i'll address that later.

I asked for fact, not interpretation. I also asked for reasons you thought the timeline you formaly believed in was wrong, not why you believe in your current one. To counter your main point about the "no knowledge of the Triforce" you're clearly wrong as there are banners with it EVERYWHERE. If that isn't satisfactory enough to you, or you were wondering about the KNOWLEDGE of the Triforce, then here: In ALttP, Ganondorf "REdiscovered the SR" So of course nobody would know (much) about the Triforce.

There we go. YOu had one crappy point and for that you changed your timeline? Dispicable.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I asked for fact, not interpretation. I also asked for reasons you thought the timeline you formaly believed in was wrong, not why you believe in your current one. To counter your main point about the "no knowledge of the Triforce" you're clearly wrong as there are banners with it EVERYWHERE. If that isn't satisfactory enough to you, or you were wondering about the KNOWLEDGE of the Triforce, then here: In ALttP, Ganondorf "REdiscovered the SR" So of course nobody would know (much) about the Triforce.

There we go. YOu had one crappy point and for that you changed your timeline? Dispicable.

Yes but do people know what the banners represent? I need a source for the ganon comment.

I played the Kakiriko Village level in FSA and could not find the sign anywhere. Is it in the Lost Woods level?

Originally Posted by Roc Thul

I played the Kakiriko Village level in FSA and could not find the sign anywhere. Is it in the Lost Woods level?

If your talking about the Master Sword sign. It's only in the text dump because it was removed from the game most likely during the tea table indecent.

Originally Posted by Triforce of the Gods

If your talking about the Master Sword sign. It's only in the text dump because it was removed from the game most likely during the tea table indecent.

Oh. Well, at least I got to play FSA for a little while.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Just because they open to an ocean doesn't mean there's a coast right next to hyrule.

ok, have you seen the LttP/LoZ map comparisons? Consider that LoZ has a bit of land beyond Lake Hylia but still reaches the ocean. The ocean may not be right next to TP or OoT, but it's there somewhere.

See i place FSA on the AT, they could have recently arrived there, either way the goron thing makes WW-MC probable.

maybe, but that's less convincing than the TP-FSA-LttP evidence which forces tMC-OoT anyway.

The sign is not a part of the main story, if it wasn't there would your opinion change?

no...

Wait you mentioned...oh i accidentally ignored the Ganon's BS part sorry.

...and this is why.

You've obviously never heard of the Hyrule Proper, New Hyrule theory have you?

not really.

Nobody resembles Gerudo? What about Astrid, Jolene, Joanne, and Zauz,

¯\(°_o)/¯ I haven't played PH much.

i don't see anybody on the CT that looks like a gerudo!

Telma.

It would not be old hyrule=the land of his people, they could name it hyrule in honor of the ancient land.

That land will not be Hyrule. It's a literal statement.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Triforce of the Gods

If your talking about the Master Sword sign. It's only in the text dump because it was removed from the game most likely during the tea table indecent.

I could swear I saw it when I played the game. I'll find it sometime.