Revised Timeline theory

Originally Posted by Slagr

It seems as though there was a war which effectively ended with the sealing away of Interloper magic (the dark power that began to flow from the SR in LttP BS). Where are you getting the idea that their power was sealed in the TR?

1) Interloper magic wasn't sealed in the Sacred Realm - it was sealed in the temples in Hyrule, with one fragment being sealed in the Twilight Realm. Nor was it said to "flow from the Sacred Realm", or even to "flow" at all - it just "made those people enormously huge" as we see with Midna. Au contraire, even in TP it is Ganon's power that corrupts the world(s).

2) The Interlopers were never mentioned in reference to the "Dark World" (the world that was sealed by the sages according to ALttP), yet in every game we see or hear of the "Dark World" it is in reference to Ganon or his minions, and in both ALttP and OoT the Dark World was explicitly said to be a creation of Ganon.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

.......WW/PH-MC-FS/FSA-LOZ/AOL
....../
OOT
......\
........MM-TP-OOX-ALTTP/LA

Anybody have any objections?

I don't have an objection since this problem exists in most (including my own) timeline. The problem being, where does the Ganon in ALttp appear from if he was killed in TP and again in OoX?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) Interloper magic wasn't sealed in the Sacred Realm - it was sealed in the temples in Hyrule, with one fragment being sealed in the Twilight Realm. Nor was it said to "flow from the Sacred Realm", or even to "flow" at all - it just "made those people enormously huge" as we see with Midna. Au contraire, even in TP it is Ganon's power that corrupts the world(s).

it just seems more agreeable to assume that two similar stories about such a major event would be the same regardless of minor differences.

2) The Interlopers were never mentioned in reference to the "Dark World" (the world that was sealed by the sages according to ALttP), yet in every game we see or hear of the "Dark World" it is in reference to Ganon or his minions, and in both ALttP and OoT the Dark World was explicitly said to be a creation of Ganon.

the "Dark World" is not a very exclusive term. Since some theorists can't tell the difference between LttP's DW, FSA's DW, and the TR, why should any NPCs or games BSs differenciate them? How can they be separately referenced when the term "Dark Wold" has the literal meaning of "a world that is dark," which includes not only LttP's and FSA's DWs by name but also the TR and even OoT's AT events. Since FSA's DW bears such a strong resemblance to the TR, yet is still called the DW, it seems as though the TR was originally considered to be the DW in the view of NPCs until LttP's DW gained infamy, at which point the similarities between the two would likely cause them to be considered the same by NPCs as well. Basically, this would make all of the above the "Dark World" for most practical purposes by the time of LttP, but the term "Dark World" was not existent in TP because there was only one world that fit the description: the TR.

so, a far as NPCs know: The DW is the corrupted SR, the TR, and whatever it is in FSA. This does not make the TR the SR though, similarly to how both triangles and rectangles are both shapes but are not the same shape.

that's kind of... hard to explain clearly.

Ok here I go

If you read the aLttP backstory, there were wars over the Triforce leading up to the Seal War. The Interloper event is the wars over the Triforce. Ganon's entry into the Sacred Realm began the Seal War.

This might sound stupid, but I'm just using info I got on the games, Oot and TP.

But I always thought that the Interloper War happened Ante- Oot, since the Great Deku Sprout mentioned a war when Link's mother left Link with the Kokiri before she died, wasn't it called the Hyrulian Civil War?

Like you said, I always thought that the Seal War happened during the 7 year gap in Oot

Originally Posted by Slagr

it just seems more agreeable to assume that two similar stories about such a major event would be the same regardless of minor differences.

Thing is - these aren't minor differences. The Interloper story is more similar to the description of the conflicts over the Sacred Realm that happened before the Imprisoning War. There is never a mention of evil power coming from the Sacred Realm, never a mention of a battle against knights, never a mention of a seal cast by the sages. In fact, there is a completely different explanation given for what happened - they were confronted by the Light Spirits and locked in the Twilight Realm.

OoT, on the other hand, actually shows evil power seeping into Hyrule, shows the aftermath of a massacre of Hyrule's defense, and ends with the Sages casting a seal. If you're going to say the similarities merit that they are the same story, why wouldn't you do so for OoT's much more obvious, definitely intended similarities?

the "Dark World" is not a very exclusive term.

Every time a world is referred to as the "world of darkness" or "demon world" (Japanese text), it's always Ganon's realm. These are the two names given to the Sacred Realm after Ganon corrupted it in OoT (and ALttP), and the two names used in every other game, except for TP (AoL, OoX, TWW, FSA), to describe the world Ganon rules.

How can they be separately referenced when the term "Dark Wold" has the literal meaning of "a world that is dark," which includes not only LttP's and FSA's DWs by name but also the TR and even OoT's AT events.

Here's how - in Japanese, ALttP, FSA, and OoT's Dark Worlds all share the same name: "yami no sekai", world of darkness. TP's Twilight Realm does not.

Since FSA's DW bears such a strong resemblance to the TR

It doesn't bear any resemblance to the TR - it is a parallel reflection of Hyrule (the TR isn't) and is accessed through portals opened by Moon Pearls (the TR can only be accessed through the Mirror of Twilight).

Basically, this would make all of the above the "Dark World" for most practical purposes by the time of LttP, but the term "Dark World" was not existent in TP because there was only one world that fit the description: the TR.

So when did the term "Dark World" come around?
When did it start getting applied to the Twilight Realm? (and do you have evidence for this?)

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

.......WW/PH-MC-FS/FSA-LOZ/AOL
....../
OOT
......\
........MM-TP-OOX-ALTTP/LA

Anybody have any objections?

How does Ganon end up in the Dark World to prepare for ALTTP if he was never sealed in such a realm on the child timeline?

My opinion of things is that, by the time of TP, the Imprisoning War is merely a story. I think the story that Link told the king of Hyrule after being returned to his childhood at the end of OOT became known as the legend of the Imprisoning war, as well as exposing Ganondorf's evil plans. Link told the king about how he defeated Ganon and Ganon was sealed away in the Dark World. It isn't until FSA, which takes place a few hundred years after TP in my timeline, that the Imprisoning War finally becomes a true historical event. In my opinion:

OoT Link's story + FSA = ALTTP's backstory

Originally Posted by Link92

How does Ganon end up in the Dark World to prepare for ALTTP if he was never sealed in such a realm on the child timeline?

My opinion of things is that, by the time of TP, the Imprisoning War is merely a story. I think the story that Link told the king of Hyrule after being returned to his childhood at the end of OOT became known as the legend of the Imprisoning war, as well as exposing Ganondorf's evil plans. Link told the king about how he defeated Ganon and Ganon was sealed away in the Dark World. It isn't until FSA, which takes place a few hundred years after TP in my timeline, that the Imprisoning War finally becomes a true historical event. In my opinion:

OoT Link's story + FSA = ALTTP's backstory

FSA cannot happen on the CT unfortunately.

Thanks to Erimgard's article and my own research and interpretation I agree that FSA's Dark world is more akin to the Twilight Realm than the Sacred Realm. I therefore also agree with Slagr to a degree that in the contxt of teh series as a whole that the Twilight Realm can be considered a Yami no Sekai in the fact that Ganon, as a Maou, presumably has a Makai and this place is fulfilled in the Twilight Realm.

I agree that the 'Dark World' of aLttP did not exist prior to Ganon's touching of the Triforce, but I question when that was.

aLttP states that upon Ganon's death the Sacred Realm returns to normal. A good AT timeline has LoZ pre-aLttP and thus the Dark World upon Ganon's death is destroyed. Even if not, Ganon is killed in tWW meaning in this too the Dark World would have dissolved.

On an AT placement of aLttP it is still necessary to entirely 'make up' a new end to the SW to have Ganon, either new FSA or resurrected old world Ganon, enter the realm, touch the complete Triforce and make a new Dark World.

The CT timeline makes no more of an assumption, and in my opinion (though it is just opinion) to have this only happening ONCE on the CT is better than having Dark World-tWW Death- Cleansed- Dark World- LoZ Death- Cleansed- Dark World- aLttP Death- Cleansed.

It makes for a very messy and unbelievable series of events compared to what would be Dark World-aLttP Death-Cleansed as the only matter and then having the original 'Evil Power issuing forth from the dark Portal' to be the result of something other than Ganon as is implied in the new translations and Ganon's Power from the Dark Realm being the later evil which Agahnim was said to have achieved fame by stopping.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Thing is - these aren't minor differences. The Interloper story is more similar to the description of the conflicts over the Sacred Realm that happened before the Imprisoning War. There is never a mention of evil power coming from the Sacred Realm, never a mention of a battle against knights, never a mention of a seal cast by the sages. In fact, there is a completely different explanation given for what happened - they were confronted by the Light Spirits and locked in the Twilight Realm.

OoT, on the other hand, actually shows evil power seeping into Hyrule, shows the aftermath of a massacre of Hyrule's defense, and ends with the Sages casting a seal. If you're going to say the similarities merit that they are the same story, why wouldn't you do so for OoT's much more obvious, definitely intended similarities?



Every time a world is referred to as the "world of darkness" or "demon world" (Japanese text), it's always Ganon's realm. These are the two names given to the Sacred Realm after Ganon corrupted it in OoT (and ALttP), and the two names used in every other game, except for TP (AoL, OoX, TWW, FSA), to describe the world Ganon rules.



Here's how - in Japanese, ALttP, FSA, and OoT's Dark Worlds all share the same name: "yami no sekai", world of darkness. TP's Twilight Realm does not.



It doesn't bear any resemblance to the TR - it is a parallel reflection of Hyrule (the TR isn't) and is accessed through portals opened by Moon Pearls (the TR can only be accessed through the Mirror of Twilight).



So when did the term "Dark World" come around?
When did it start getting applied to the Twilight Realm? (and do you have evidence for this?)

forgot about the Japanese there... I guess I see what you're saying, but I disagree. The inconsistencies for post-WW LttP are enough to completely discredit OoT=SW imo, and TP can conceivably be part of the new SW imo as well.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

FSA cannot happen on the CT unfortunately.

why not? It makes perfect sense.

Because if Dark Mirror= twilight Mirror as you suggest in the nature of the realms, then it was destroyed on the CT. Also there is the annoying fact it's an island as Hyrule becomes on the AT.

Originally Posted by Slagr

why not it makes perfect sense.

explain the coast, the fact that placing them on the same timeline would be going against shiggy's wishes, the fact that none of the plot points from FSA are mentioned in ALTTP, and the appearance of the force gems in PH.

That's only our interpretation of Shiggy's wishes Oni, don't make us seem biased or stubborn now! It was a mind change by someone else that put me onto this train of thought in the first place, so I hearily expect my mind to be changed again at some point, just not happened yet!

Originally Posted by River Zora

aLttP states that upon Ganon's death the Sacred Realm returns to normal. A good AT timeline has LoZ pre-aLttP and thus the Dark World upon Ganon's death is destroyed. Even if not, Ganon is killed in tWW meaning in this too the Dark World would have dissolved.

ALttP also states this in the exclusive context of Link actually defeating Ganon in the Dark World and Ganon relinquishing full mastery of the Triforce and Sacred Realm to Link.

There has been no game besides ALttP that has asserted that the Dark World ceases to exist after his defeat - to the contrary, his makai continues to function after LoZ and during OoX despite his death.

On an AT placement of aLttP it is still necessary to entirely 'make up' a new end to the SW to have Ganon, either new FSA or resurrected old world Ganon, enter the realm, touch the complete Triforce and make a new Dark World.

Depends - FSA defintiely ends with Ganon sealed, and it would seem that the maidens sealed the Four Sword as well after they stuck Ganon inside (using a seal identical to the original artwork for ALttP's seal). So I would say it's pretty obvious that FSA ends with Ganon sealed in the Dark World, and thus there's little need to "make up" anything in that regard.

S&D's spin on the ALttP prologue also gives an alternate story for Ganon's capture of the Triforce that I think based on more recent titles is probably more accurate than ALttP's original story at this point.

The CT timeline makes no more of an assumption, and in my opinion (though it is just opinion) to have this only happening ONCE on the CT is better than having Dark World-tWW Death- Cleansed- Dark World- LoZ Death- Cleansed- Dark World- aLttP Death- Cleansed.

Here's the thing, though: TWW doesn't make any claims about the Dark World getting "cleansed," and in LoZ we know for certain that the Dark World is NOT cleansed because his enemies still operate out of it in AoL. So in an Adult Timeline placement of the 2D games OoT simply replaces ALttP as the point of origin for the Dark World and it is not cleansed until the end of ALttP.

In my opinion this is the least messy explanation of all, as it involves absolutely zero speculation about there being "different" Dark Worlds.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

explain the coast,

there are numerous reasons for why it's not canon, such as AoL not existing behind it, the impossibility of a coast being anywhere near a desert like that, and the fact that the coast is not relevant to the story. You also never see how far any other map goes; OoT and LttP are covered with clouds and TP just doesn't show that far. The coast may exist anyway, or it may not matter.

the fact that placing them on the same timeline would be going against shiggy's wishes,

Just because he didn't want FSA=SW doesn't mean he didn't want FSA as LttP direct prequel.

the fact that none of the plot points from FSA are mentioned in ALTTP,

Originally Posted by me on page 1

Regardless of the fact that FSA's plot was rewritten late in the game's development, there are many connections to LttP still remaining. The Ganon of LttP has his origin shown in FSA, along with the Trident, Thieve's Town, "Master Sword ahead!" sign, seven maidens/sage descendants, identical castles, and sufficiently similar geography all link the two games.

and the appearance of the force gems in PH.

and the appearance of Tingle in random games throughout the series? Force gems were a gimmick and the fact that they are effectively the same as rupees and never appear or are mentioned in other games makes them irrelevant.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Because if Dark Mirror= twilight Mirror as you suggest in the nature of the realms, then it was destroyed on the CT.

it's possible it was fixed, as TP's mirror was, but it's also possible they are not the same mirror. It may have been an attempted recreation that differed slightly in behavior from its archetype.

Also there is the annoying fact it's an island as Hyrule becomes on the AT.

there's no reason to believe that Hyrule wasn't always an island, nor is there anything to support FSA's island status other than its mere appearance in a heavily stylized map.

Also, the fact that it is actually called "Hyrule" and bears such strong cultural similarities to Old Hyrule leads me to believe that if it was on the AT it would be going against Daphnes' statement at the end of WW.

Originally Posted by Slagr

there are numerous reasons for why it's not canon, such as AoL not existing behind it, the impossibility of a coast being anywhere near a desert like that, and the fact that the coast is not relevant to the story. You also never see how far any other map goes; OoT and LttP are covered with clouds and TP just doesn't show that far. The coast may exist anyway, or it may not matter.

Just because he didn't want FSA=SW doesn't mean he didn't want FSA as LttP direct prequel.

and the appearance of Tingle in random games throughout the series? Force gems were a gimmick and the fact that they are effectively the same as rupees and never appear or are mentioned in other games makes them irrelevant.

it's possible it was fixed, as TP's mirror was, but it's also possible they are not the same mirror. It may have been an attempted recreation that differed slightly in behavior from its archetype.

there's no reason to believe that Hyrule wasn't always an island, nor is there anything to support FSA's island status other than its mere appearance in a heavily stylized map.

Also, the fact that it is actually called "Hyrule" and bears such strong cultural similarities to Old Hyrule leads me to believe that if it was on the AT it would be going against Daphnes' statement at the end of WW.

There are islands behind the FSA map, look at how massive AOL's map is, it looks like they're only separated by a river but there could be an ocean behind them. Hyrule is described in ALTTP's BS as being surrounded by mountains and forests, that gives the implication that it is landlocked. He wanted all ties between FSA and ALTTP to be severed, that implies they have no chronological connection, yes force gems were a gimmic but their appearance in a non FS game is interesting. TP's mirror was completely shattered, if they are the same they have to be on different timelines. There is a coast ingame that implies it is an island, at the very least it destroys the FSA is ALTTP's bs arguement. What's wrong with naming it hyrule out of honor for the old land?

Artem, I disagree with you entirely that the FS is clearly sealed in the Dark World, in fact I would suggest that this is the single least likely place for it to be. Even with the seal of the Sword itself I doubt that anyone in their right mind would put Ganon anywhere near to a complete Triforce. In OoT the Triforce had already been sparated so trapping him there had no consequence, in FSA they're just giving him easy access to the ultimate power. Any event of a bunch of people putting a magical seal on something will have thematic similarities.

I also maintain that even though we don't see the Dark World cleansed, in tWW Ganon is killed and the triforce wished upon by another just like in aLttP (though in the opposite order) so I think this situation would guarantee the evil of the realm is cleansed or else the gods really are very pernickety as to their methods.

I also make the point again that not all Makais necessarily be the same. I often bring up Erim's article because he puts it so eloquently, but I make it that the Dark World that can exist without Ganon is separate from his corrupted Sacred Realm. There is that which his followers are pulled from- those who exist independently but choose to follow him by possession or will as in OoX, TP (arguably FSA) and AoL, and then there are the creatures which cannot exist without him but are made from his magic as seen in OoT, perhaps tWW and aLttP.

@River Zora:

The "complete Triforce" is not in the Sacred Realm during the time period where FSA would/could take place on either timeline as far as I can see. In the Adult Timeline it has split and left the Sacred Realm, and in TP it does the same, with no indication that it ever returned there. Even if it is, Ganon already had access to the Dark World in FSA so sealing him there wouldn't be any more dangerous than sealing him anywhere else.

Also, in terms of the "cleansing" - I maintain that even though Ganon is dead and the Triforce in good hands in OoX, the Dark World still exists. So I don't see any indication that "dead Ganon = cleansed Dark World," I in fact see precisely the opposite. The cleansing of the Dark World seems to be exclusive to ALttP.

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest the "makai" is anything but Ganon's world, the "makai" being the world belonging to a "maou," and Ganon being the only "maou" in the entire series.

Believe me, I once followed the same line of thought that you and Erimgard do - I just ran out of reasons that could stand on their own to separate the Dark World of OoT/ALttP from the Dark World seen or mentioned in the rest of the games (same reason why I gave up arguing that the Light Force was different than Force).

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

There are islands behind the FSA map, look at how massive AOL's map is, it looks like they're only separated by a river but there could be an ocean behind them.

but AoL's Death Mountain is the same place as LoZ's DM, which is also the same place as FSA's DM, so there should be a mountain range extending well behind FSA's map as well as more land directly to the north. AoL is not made up of a group of islands; they're continents as stated in-game, so there is no geographical necessity for a flood.

Hyrule is described in ALTTP's BS as being surrounded by mountains and forests, that gives the implication that it is landlocked.

New Zealand is surrounded by forests and mountains, and it is an island.

He wanted all ties between FSA and ALTTP to be severed,

prove that he actually wanted them separated and not just FSA=/=SW.

yes force gems were a gimmic but their appearance in a non FS game is interesting.

not really... it's kind of an age-targeted thing imo.

TP's mirror was completely shattered, if they are the same they have to be on different timelines.

again, if they are the same and can't be repaired. That's too many ifs for my taste.

There is a coast ingame that implies it is an island, at the very least it destroys the FSA is ALTTP's bs arguement.

a coast=/=an island. AoL's map ha numerous coasts, and those landmasses are continents. Why can't FSA be a continent as well?

What's wrong with naming it hyrule out of honor for the old land?

"But that land will not be Hyrule...
It will be YOUR land!"

if Nintendo really wanted to use WW to connect to other games which occur in Hyrule, there is no way they would have included that line.

In AoL's story Hyrule is called Islands NOT continents. 'The Triforce of courage is hidden in the Great Palace on the largest Island in Hyrule.

Also there is a sea between Death Mountain area (LoZ map) and the rest of AoL map.

"But that land will not be Hyrule...
It will be YOUR land!"

if Nintendo really wanted to use WW to connect to other games which occur in Hyrule, there is no way they would have included that line.

If Nintendo really believed in such a literal interpretation of TWW's message of letting go of the past, two of the games that followed wouldn't have been shallow rehashes of ALttP and OoT.