Revised Timeline theory

Originally Posted by River Zora

There is no bias in interpretation- I have nothing to be biased about! I have no reason to WANT this place to be the Temple of Time, it is just when looking at its location, its nature and relate it to every past incarnation of the castle- right in the centre of the kingdom- it seems incredulously anomalous.

It's still quite obviously the castle. It even looks like OoT's castle!

I quote to you the same quotation I posted on another thread assuring Zelda DID NOT introduce herself to Link (in either version of the in game text from aLttP) outside of the vision which Link's uncle is implied to have had aswell due to him rushing off, so was presumably a general vision to every knight left loyal:

Thank you, Link. I had a
feeling you were getting close.
Link, listen carefully. All
the soldiers in the castle have
fallen under the wizard's spell.
And I fear even worse has
befallen my father... That
wizard is an inhuman fiend!
His powers are strong...
... ... ...
Do you understand?

No introduction or anything, calls him by name and she knew exactly who she was calling for help- implies she'd been helped by him before.

"THANKS LINK, YOU'RE THE HERO OF HYRULE"

they didn't look too far into interpersonal character relations in those days.

Originally Posted by Slagr

There isn't a war over the Sacred Realm every week, now is there? Since the only games that reference a war over the SR are TP and LttP, and TP makes it clear that this war preceded OoT, then there's no likely way another war occurred on the AT during or after OoT. The discrepancies (sages vs spirits making the seal and Ganondorf's involvement) are accounted for by TP and FSA. Seven humanoid Sages seal Ganon in TP, though not in the SR, but legends are known to combine over time, as seen by Arthurian legends and the like.

TP BS+TP+FSA has all the elements of the SW while OoT has only a few and an unlikely means of being remembered by AT LttP.

Strange, I don' t remember there being Seven Sages in the Interloper War. Or Ganon. Or a Sealing of any kind. Or dying Knights.

Because those are the 4 parts of the Seal War. And three of them happen in OoT which was stated by the man who invented Zelda as well as all his designers to be the Seal War at the time of its release

Originally Posted by River Zora

There is no bias in interpretation- I have nothing to be biased about! I have no reason to WANT this place to be the Temple of Time, it is just when looking at its location, its nature and relate it to every past incarnation of the castle- right in the centre of the kingdom- it seems incredulously anomalous.

Doesn't matter how it seems to you. It's what it is called. Including in the Japanese.

Fair enough on the Link/Zelda knowing each other thing, but it's still impossible for them to be the same Link and Zelda from OoX.

And yes, I do think the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm at the end of TP. It clearly leaves Ganon's body and when this has happened in the past it either reforms with other pieces in the viscinity shortly before returning, or remains in his remains ready to be picked up by another. Seeing as we see it leave him before his death it equates more to tWW than LoZ's defeat.

What about Link and Zelda's pieces in TP?


I'll address your Seal War thing in a minute.

The way Ganon is spoken of in the new text implies that he came along well after the seal was cast and most peoples' knowledge of the Triforce had vanished into legend; that he was one trying to break an existing seal. The Swamp Maiden in both versions claimed that the knowledge of the realm was lost and Ganon was the one who rediscovered it and worked out a way to enter but 'luckily' wasn't able to find his way out. This again implies that Ganon's entry was long after the seal to prevent dark power was placed.

Fair enough, and I agree, but keep in mind it was like that in the original SNES too, where Ganon was explicitly included in the Seal War.

It could even be perfectly believed that the story of the Interlopers refers to the new description of the war and that Ganon's attempt at the SR could have happened very soon before the whole Agahnim fiasco in aLttP within the game's own backstory, perhaps the effects of Ganon reaching the Triforce being limited to the problems Agahnim stopped in order to gain the trust of the king.

Except in the Interloper event there is no mention of Sages, a Seal, or even a corruption of the Sacred Realm in the first place.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Strange, I don' t remember there being Seven Sages in the Interloper War. Or Ganon. Or a Sealing of any kind. Or dying Knights.

the Interloper War ends with the sealing away of the Interloper Magic. It can be reasonably interpreted as a seal on the SR itself. Ganon appears in TP, along with the Sages, and in FSA along with the Knights. There's no reason to believe Ganon was forcibly sealed in the SR as far as I'm aware; LttP implies that he stumbled upon the realm and found it already sealed. I personally take his sealing in the FS at the end of FSA and the FS's broken appearance in the DW of LttP to show just how that connection worked out.

Because those are the 4 parts of the Seal War. And three of them happen in OoT which was stated by the man who invented Zelda as well as all his designers to be the Seal War at the time of its release

all 4 of them happen in TP BS+TP+FSA, and that quote is from 1998, before WW messed up the AT connections.

Originally Posted by Slagr

the Interloper War ends with the sealing away of the Interloper Magic. It can be reasonably interpreted as a seal on the SR itself.

No it can't. The Magic (and the interloper themselves) are sealed in the Twilight Relam, not the Sacred Realm. The Sacred Realm isn't turned into a Dark World in that story either.

Ganon appears in TP, along with the Sages,

There's only 6 sages in TP. All accounts of the Seal War state that there are Seven. The Sacred Realm is not in TP, is not corrupted, and is not Sealed. Irrelevant.

and in FSA along with the Knights.

There's only 4 Knights in FSA, not an army as spoken of and depicted in aLttP. And they didn't die protecting Sages because there WERE NO Sages in FSA.

There's no reason to believe Ganon was forcibly sealed in the SR as far as I'm aware; LttP implies that he stumbled upon the realm and found it already sealed. I personally take his sealing in the FS at the end of FSA and the FS's broken appearance in the DW of LttP to show just how that connection worked out.

But by your timeline the Sacred Realm hadn't even been sealed yet. Because it hadn't been corrupted.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I'm not saying there needs to be a game explaining the Seal War. There doesn't. I'm just asking how the Seal War would work on your timeline. In between what games does it come? How does it get set up? Etc.



How many times do I have to say it doesn't have to be a game, just a plausible explanation?



No, I mean OoT was designed as the Seal War, and I have two quotes to prove it.

At the end of Twilight Princess, the Trifroce of Power had no user, s I think of this as an open possibility that the Trifroce could have been unifed after Twilight Princess. My memory is stale, but I recall the Trifroce being unified at the end of The Wind Waker or something, and that game runs parallel to Twilight Princess: both shares similarities, such as Ganondorf's death in both games, so the Trifroce was most likely unified in both games paralle, too.

The Oracles are extremely lean when it comes to the timeline- they seem to fit everywehre without a problem, so let's no argue about their placment because they are so damn awkward to place.

Phantom Hourglass references The Minish Cap, Four Swords Advetnures, and, to the heaviest extent, The Advetnure of Link; Twilight Princess referecns A Link tothe Past.

As for post-flood timline indicators, Phantom Hourglass has the following:

Force Gems Mentioned (FSA has Force Gems)
Trimph Forks Mentioned (TMC mentions them, too)
Maze Island (AOL has Maz Island)
World of the Ocean King (flooded upper-right AOL map)
Six Sage Graves, Three Other Graves (AOL has Siz Sage towns, three oter towns)
Lack of the Master Sword (FS, FSA, TLOZ,and TAOL all lack the Master Sword, too, as it was lost atr TWW)
Islands Everywhere (New Hyrule will have to be an island, as seen in FS, FSA, TLOZ, and AOL)


As for child timeline indictors, Twilight Prncess:

Master Sword left in a grove (ALLTP, the Master Sword is found in a grove)
Landlocked Hyrule (ALTTP, Hyrule is landlocked, meaning no flood)
Hero's Shade (ALLTP mentions something about Link keeping the knights line true, the Hero's Shade did something similar with Twlight Princss Link by passing on his skills)
Kakariko clothing style (the clothing style Kakariko villagers wear in ALTTP, as seen in official artowork, is similar to their style in the events of Twilight Princess)
Hylian Sage Descendents (the miaden sage decendents in A Link to the Past are Hylian, indicating that they are decsended from the Etheral Sages from Twilight Princess)


Another thing- the A Link to the Past backstory doesn't match up with any chorniced event seen in any game so far: the sageswere Hylian men, just as seen in Twilight Prncess, and it was re-done so tat Ganon wasn't involved; it now matches the Dark Inteloper was that was mentioned in Twilight Princess.

Originally Posted by Potent Col

At the end of Twilight Princess, the Trifroce of Power had no user, s I think of this as an open possibility that the Trifroce could have been unifed after Twilight Princess. My memory is stale, but I recall the Trifroce being unified at the end of The Wind Waker or something, and that game runs parallel to Twilight Princess: both shares similarities, such as Ganondorf's death in both games, so the Trifroce was most likely unified in both games paralle, too.

"Parallel" was only in reference to them being on different timelienes, as stated by Aonuma. Not the plots.
And WW shows the Triforce being united. TP did not.

The Oracles are extremely lean when it comes to the timeline- they seem to fit everywehre without a problem, so let's no argue about their placment because they are so damn awkward to place.

Disagree

Phantom Hourglass references The Minish Cap, Four Swords Advetnures, and, to the heaviest extent, The Advetnure of Link; Twilight Princess referecns A Link tothe Past.

How does MC reference the FS saga?
Twilight Princess also "references" MC by that logic.

As for post-flood timline indicators, Phantom Hourglass has the following:

Force Gems Mentioned (FSA has Force Gems)

Irrelevant as every living thing has Force in it. From the beginning of time.

Another thing- the A Link to the Past backstory doesn't match up with any chorniced event seen in any game so far: the sageswere Hylian men, just as seen in Twilight Prncess, and it was re-done so tat Ganon wasn't involved; it now matches the Dark Inteloper was that was mentioned in Twilight Princess.

How many times do I have to say the Seal War doesn't have to be a game? I'd just like someone to logically explain it in anyway.

It does NOT match the Interloper event in any way.

Thank you Potent that's a very good explanation of my beliefs!

Edit: Erimgard the oracles add nothing to the overall story so we might as well ignore them for the sake of sanity.
TP does not reference MC, MC bears little if any geographic similarities to any other game and most likely takes place in New Hyrule. Still the fact that force gems are mentioned in PH is very interesting.
What is your logical explanation for it?

Strange, I don' t remember there being Seven Sages in the Interloper War. Or Ganon. Or a Sealing of any kind. Or dying Knights.

While we don't know they are the same event, we know that in a war pre-OoT the Temple of Time was built by the sages and the Sacred Realm sealed with the Triforce away from the rest of Hyrule. I put it that, considering the nature of the description of the War in aLttP, that it could refer to this original seal placed on the Sacred Realm by the original ancient sages pre-OoT and pre the second seal of Ganon into the realm.

As Slagr said, wars over the SR don't happen all the time and if two descriptions share this then it makes sense to consider the possibility they are the same.

Linking the "SW/Pre OoT sacred realm sealing sages war" and the "Interloper war" is a personal thing as the Interlopers give a reason to seal off the Triforce away from the ancient Kings who ruled with it in Hyrule.

The Ganon not involved in the SW thing is the last of my old beliefs to go down the toilet, but it has thanks to a number of factors, although I am always looking for the excuse to resurrect it as that thread I posted showed.

As for Link and Zelda's pieces of the force, we don't get a close enough view of their hands for it to be AT ALL conclusive, but they certainly seem to be gone from the glimpses we do get in TP's ending when talking with Midna. If the Triforce hasn't reformed and left for the Sacred realm once more it begs th question where did Power go upon leaving Ganon?

Originally Posted by River Zora

While we don't know they are the same event, we know that in a war pre-OoT the Temple of Time was built by the sages and the Sacred Realm sealed with the Triforce away from the rest of Hyrule. I put it that, considering the nature of the description of the War in aLttP, that it could refer to this original seal placed on the Sacred Realm by the original ancient sages pre-OoT and pre the second seal of Ganon into the realm.

If the Sacred Realm was truly "sealed" in the same sense as the Seal War in pre-OoT days, then why were both Ganondorf and Link able to freely leave it? And why was Ganon's evil power radiating out of the temples? (The very thing that the Seal is stated to have stopped from happening)

As Slagr said, wars over the SR don't happen all the time and if two descriptions share this then it makes sense to consider the possibility they are the same.

If you read the aLttP backstory, there were wars over the Triforce leading up to the Seal War. The Interloper event is the wars over the Triforce. Ganon's entry into the Sacred Realm began the Seal War.

As for Link and Zelda's pieces of the force, we don't get a close enough view of their hands for it to be AT ALL conclusive, but they certainly seem to be gone from the glimpses we do get in TP's ending when talking with Midna. If the Triforce hasn't reformed and left for the Sacred realm once more it begs th question where did Power go upon leaving Ganon?

Yeah I'm gonna disagree with their pieces magically disappearing. That didn't happen in LoZ when Ganon died. The pieces just chilled there.

Erimgard don't waste your time, and your fingers.
This site will come back when nintendo launch ST

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Anybody have any objections?

1) Why is OoX after TP when the Triforce was divided in the end of TP but whole in OoX? (much less in the hands of the royal family)

2) How the crap did Hyrule develop exactly the same pantheon of temples in a post-TWW Hyrule that developed in ALttP's on the opposite timeline?

3) When was the Dark World sealed? OoX talks about the Dark World, but the Dark World was (as far as we can tell) never created in the Child Timeline, certainly not in the games you place before OoX. And from the SW story it would seem that the Dark World's appearance prompted the sealing, yet there is no evidence that it was sealed before or after TP.

Yes St will be of significance to the timeline but let's not discuss it too much, erimgard, an arguement that i always got was how is the OOT events referrenced if ALTTP is post-flood?

Edit: Hmmmm,
1. How do you know it wasn't put back after TP?
2. I used to wonder this but Shiggy wanted FSA and ALTTP to be on separate timelines so i took his word for it. It could have something to do with timeline constants or something like that, i'll get back to you on this.
3. When does OOX talk about the DW? Again why should ALTTP have the honor of being the only game to have another game tell their BS?

Lex, they've been arguing points 1 and 3 with me by basically saying "well we don't think OoT is the Seal War and the interloper war is even though it doesn't match the description"

You can take over this one for me. I've gotta take a crap and go to work. I wash my hands of this thread.

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

i always got was how is the OOT events referrenced if ALTTP is post-flood?

OoT events are referenced post-flood. Ever played TWW? ;D

1. How do you know it wasn't put back after TP?
2. I used to wonder this but Shiggy wanted FSA and ALTTP to be on separate timelines so i took his word for it. It could have something to do with timeline constants or something like that, i'll get back to you on this.
3. When does OOX talk about the DW? Again why should ALTTP have the honor of being the only game to have another game tell their BS?

1) Because the developers didn't even try to give that impression, unlike all the other games that show the Triforce coming back together or being taken after Ganon's defeat.
2) Source?
3) Onox and Veran were summoned from there.

And that's probably because ALttP was the most popular game until OoT (its prequel), so Nintendo thinks that making either

1- OoT sequels
or
2- ALttP prequels

will continue to bring them financial prosperity. It's worked for OoT so far I'd say (look at MM, TWW, and TP). FSA didn't do too well, though.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

OoT events are referenced post-flood. Ever played TWW? ;D

Even than it's stated that it is a legend that is almost nonexistent though that is a good arguement, Zora what's your canon hierarchy again?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

Even than it's stated that it is a legend that is almost nonexistent

So's ALttP's legend - only the descendants of the Sages mention it at all. (And Agahnim/Ganon of course.)

I know it's not my thread, but it's still my timeline, so I feel some kindredhood

1) Why is OoX after TP when the Triforce was divided in the end of TP but whole in OoX? (much less in the hands of the royal family)

Read mine and Erimgard's discussion as to the fate of the Triforce at the end of TP post Ganon's defeat.

2) How the crap did Hyrule develop exactly the same pantheon of temples in a post-TWW Hyrule that developed in ALttP's on the opposite timeline?

I only resort to this because otherwise we have to ask so many questions about other far more important things than temple natures and locations. I argue that they do not have the same pantheon, they all have different names in the English version and in the Jap version Tower of Hera/flames changes still. Temples have themes in every game that get repeated and FSA could just be extreme version of theming (as it steals so many themes from older games) or merely remnants from the beta story ideas. I agree it is very very unlikely, but y my logic is is more likely 'Temples just so happen to be very very similar each side of the timeline' than 'Master Sword is magically back, coasts have disappeared, all the items have developed different purposes. It very much is a lesser of evils.

3) When was the Dark World sealed? OoX talks about the Dark World, but the Dark World was (as far as we can tell) never created in the Child Timeline, certainly not in the games you place before OoX. And from the SW story it would seem that the Dark World's appearance prompted the sealing, yet there is no evidence that it was sealed before or after TP.

The back story itself does not have to have explanation in any game but the game in which it appears. OoT gives no indication that there will be a flood or ganon sealing in the Twilight, yet we accept it as happening. In the same way TP doesn't suggest Ganon will return and accidentally trap himself in the Sacred Realm, but if aLttP is placed there its own back story provides.


PS: My pre-timeline build decided evidence hierarchy:
1-Supergeography/Triforce State/Master Sword State/Ganon State
2-In game history
3-Manual history
4-Post-release dev. quotations
5-Microgeography/Lesser Item use and or history
6-Pre-release dev. quotations

Your reasoning is one of the reasons i changed my timeline zora, thanks for helpind me explain it.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Read mine and Erimgard's discussion as to the fate of the Triforce at the end of TP post Ganon's defeat.

I see your stance; what I am missing is your proof.

I argue that they do not have the same pantheon, they all have different names in the English version and in the Jap version Tower of Hera/flames changes still.

Nintendo always translated "temple" as "palace" in AoL and ALttP as part of NoA's censorship policy. Ever since OoT, "temple" was always translated as "temple" because the censorship restrictions were in large part lifted. In Japanese, the names were exactly the same, and aside from the censored translations, the English names are also exactly the same.

Tower of Flames I can almost give you, but the mountain in ALttP shares the same name as the mountain in FSA ("Hebra"), so I see it as a moot point anyway.

Temples have themes in every game that get repeated and FSA could just be extreme version of theming (as it steals so many themes from older games) or merely remnants from the beta story ideas. I agree it is very very unlikely, but y my logic is is more likely 'Temples just so happen to be very very similar each side of the timeline' than 'Master Sword is magically back, coasts have disappeared, all the items have developed different purposes. It very much is a lesser of evils.

So the world being largely the same is just a repeated theme, but design quirks are obviously evidence of the games being on different timelines?

I could just as well argue that the Master Sword is included in most games as a theme-borrowing (just like the Light Arrows in TMC) - it is after all Link's trademark sword.

The back story itself does not have to have explanation in any game but the game in which it appears. OoT gives no indication that there will be a flood or ganon sealing in the Twilight, yet we accept it as happening. In the same way TP doesn't suggest Ganon will return and accidentally trap himself in the Sacred Realm, but if aLttP is placed there its own back story provides.

1) The developers already said the backstory was explained in a game. This isn't like TWW or TP where the events of the backstory aren't shown in any game - a game was developed specifically with the intent of showing these events, and we have certifiable confirmation of this from the story writer!

2) Saying "the backstory doesn't need to be shown in a game" is not the same as saying "I place ALttP after TP, therefore Ganon traps himself in the Sacred Realm after TP." (That's circular reasoning, actually.) Would you put TWW as a sequel to OoT if it didn't reference OoT's events? No - because the placement has to make some narrative sense.

"But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread throughout Hyrule and a great battle ensued.

...We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UWfFRWRrUo

It seems as though there was a war which effectively ended with the sealing away of Interloper magic (the dark power that began to flow from the SR in LttP BS). Where are you getting the idea that their power was sealed in the TR?

Up until the actual sealing by the sages or spirits, the stories are the same, and I've already explained how that confusion could have manifested. Also, even though there are only six sages in TP and seven maidens in LttP, Zelda is one of the maidens.

I've also explained Ganon's entry into the SR as a separate event from the war and sealing.