How does the SW work out on a CT-Placement?

["Oh no's! A SW Topic!"]

Simply put: I'm seeking insight to whether the IW is still OoT, and whether it can work out on the CT or not; or even if the SW is still intended to be OoT for that matter...

Rarely do I ever ask for help when it comes to research, but this time I really need direct explanations to broaden my perspective. I've been doing some intense research on the subject for a time now, not really intending to present an argument because I haven't reached a steady conclusion. So I'll even help gather/present resources that need be set on the table when and if necessary.

Here's how I'd like the participants to approach the matter per canon-concept:

State of the Triforce
- This categorizes anything relating to the Triforce; current position, holders, etc.

State of Ganon
- This categorizes anything relating to Ganon or Ganondorf; his title, history, motives, etc.

State of the Sages/Maidens
- This categorizes anything relating to the Sages/Maidens; titles, history, motives, etc.

Nature of the Sacred Realm/Dark World
- This categorizes anything relating to the nature of the Sacred Realm and the Dark World.
Note:
Because this term varies in other names such as, “Evil Realm” and “Dark Realm”, and its specific nature is disputable in other titles, this category can be labeled simultaneously along with the Twilight Realm in some contexts cases.

Current Developer Intent
- Self-explanatory

I find these four canon-concepts to be key factors in which people bring up consistencies or inconsistencies to shed light on the nature of the SW in the timeline. Preferably, I want people to hit each canon-concept within its own terms of evidence - supporting that topic alone - until we've reach the point of repetitiveness/circular logic. Once that happens then we can move on to the second category and so forth.

On a personal note: I want to point out that I now comprehend and find it unethical to use canonical elements from another canon-concept to prove one's own side of an argument, especially when one cannot find any more evidence to support his or her bias in the initial concept being debated through. What should validate a theories plausibility is the end result of how many strong points (canon-concepts listed above) weigh more in on a certain perspective (out of the four in this case).

In order for this process to work, people have to be willing to withdraw, and/or admit defeat when they cannot find more canon to support his or her's side. And by one doing so, the victor of an argument should be a good sport about it in return.

I'm beginning to understand why certain people go off on how ZU debates and theorizes; some true, and some blown out of perspective due to the increase of new participants (no offense newbies). But no matter the insufferable brow-beatings over that, we need to keep things in perspective, storyline element by storyline element, and be mutually patience with one another. Lets try not to sidetrack each other with interrelating canonical elements which do not pertain to storyline or the current canon-concept being debated through.

~LOZ H~

Now... First thing to be debated:

State of the Triforce

Consistencies to be made: Ready, set, GO!

Just quick off the top of my head, so please forgive errors and omissions.

LOZ
State of the Triforce beginning: Scattered
State of the Triforce end: Partially gathered
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: NA
State of the Sacred Realm end: NA
State of the Sages/Maidens: NA
State of Ganon beginning: At large
State of Ganon end: Dead

AOL
State of the Triforce beginning: Scattered in chunks
State of the Triforce end: Assembled by Link
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: NA
State of the Sacred Realm end: NA
State of the Sages/Maidens: NA
State of Ganon beginning: Dead
State of Ganon end: Still dead

LTTP
State of the Triforce beginning: Held by Ganon
State of the Triforce end: Assembled by Link
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Dark and sealed with Ganon inside
State of the Sacred Realm end: Golden
State of the Sages/Maidens: Ganon seeks to kill them to get out of Sacred/Dark realm
State of Ganon beginning: Trapped in Sacred Realm via sages wrestling him in there long ago.
State of Ganon end: Dead

LA
State of the Triforce beginning: Not in game
State of the Triforce end: Not in game
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Not in game
State of the Sacred Realm end: Not in game
State of the Sages/Maidens: Not in game
State of Ganon beginning: Presumed to be dead but may have returned and still haunt's Link's dreams.
State of Ganon end: Unchanged from beginning, but as game is a dream may have been dead all along.

OOT
State of the Triforce beginning: Safe in Sacred Realm
State of the Triforce end: Split in possession of Link, Zelda, and Ganon
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Sealed and Golden
State of the Sacred Realm end: Dark and Sealed with Ganon inside
State of the Sages/Maidens: Killed by Ganon, and then replaced by ghostly new sages
State of Ganon beginning: At large (freshly born)
State of Ganon end: Sealed in Sacred Realm

WW
State of the Triforce beginning: Partially held by Ganon, and partially scattered into chunks
State of the Triforce end: Assembled and used, then unknown
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Presumably darkened by Ganon, but no longer sealed
State of the Sacred Realm end: No longer sealed, condition unseen
State of the Sages/Maidens: Old ones dead, maybe killed by Ganon, then replaced by new sages but fewer than before
State of Ganon beginning: At large
State of Ganon end: Dead

FSA
State of the Triforce beginning: Not in game
State of the Triforce end: Not in game
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Not really in game, but similar game mechanics exist (subject to debate)
State of the Sacred Realm end: Not really in game
State of the Sages/Maidens: Numerous and competent
State of Ganon beginning: At large (freshly born)
State of Ganon end: Locked in foursword and placed in pedestal

MC, FS
State of the Triforce beginning: Not in game
State of the Triforce end: Not in game
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Not in game
State of the Sacred Realm end: Not in game
State of the Sages/Maidens: Not in game
State of Ganon beginning: Not in game
State of Ganon end: Not in game

TP
State of the Triforce beginning: Held by Link, Zelda, and Ganon
State of the Triforce end: Held by Link, Zelda, and unsure
State of the Sacred Realm beginning: Assumed untouched and Golden, never seen in game
State of the Sacred Realm end: Assumed untouched and Golden, never seen in game
State of the Sages/Maidens: One is dead, the others are homely
State of Ganon beginning: At large, escaped from Twilight Realm
State of Ganon end: Dead

LTTP
State of the Triforce beginning: Partially scattered, partially held by Ganon
State of the Triforce end: Assembled by Link

The Triforce in LttP is actually completely full from beginning to end.

Post reserved for when I feel like making a post.

Originally Posted by Sign-of-Madness

The Triforce in LttP is actually completely full from beginning to end.

Post reserved for when I feel like making a post.

Was it? I'll edit the list then.

That's a good list langford. But when people get into debating the State of the Triforce in-between OoT and ALttP (CT and/or AT), TP's scenario is going to be the first hurtle we'll need to cover since some people are a bit unsure how Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf got their respective pieces in the first place.

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

That's a good list langford. But what when we get into debating the State of the Triforce in regards to between OoT and ALttP (CT and/or AT), TP's scenario is going to be the first hurtle we'll need to cover.

Oh, I had forgotten TP existed, I'll edit a sec.

Made some edits in the first post and a quick edit in the second post.

Sorry about that. I realize its a bit late in the evening for some folks to tackle into this right away.

As someone who puts aLttP in the child-line myself, I've had to concede with the growing view that the Adult ending of OoT is no longer supposed to be the SW/was never supposed to be the entire SW. I really didn't want to do this, but it's the only way to make everything fit in with in-game evidence as priority.

I made myself a similar table with state of the triforce, State of Ganon, State of Hyrule geographically etc., and I then tried to rearrange the games to fit in as best as possible.

As such, against my initial will, but one has to be willing to abandon one's ideas in the face of logic, I deemed that OoT is not the CT SW, and that instead the legend as said in aLttP it is a series of conflicts from the CT ending, through the 'something outrageous' Ganon backstory and in game story of TP, and then a resurrection seen in the OoX games, and finally an unseen last attempt from the revived Ganon where he succeeds in taking the whole Triforce.

I don't like assuming 'unseen' or out of game events to happen, but on either TL there is no place where Ganon ends with the whole Triforce or having made his wish, so we can only assume that a concluding SW game will be made in the future.

Might be kind of messy, but I tried to be as accurate as possible, and to give details that are as crucial as possible.


STATUS OF TRIFORCE, GANON, SACRED REALM, AND SAGES

LoZ
Power: Held in the kingdom, stolen by Ganon, recovered by Link
Wisdom: Held in the kingdom, scattered by Zelda, recovered by Link
Courage: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: “Great Demon King” who steals Triforce of Power but loses it to Link after being slain by the Silver Arrows
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game [may be the Old Men/Women]

AoL
Power: Held by Link, united with other two and wished upon by Link, Link presumably becomes king
Wisdom: Held by Link, united with other two and wished upon by Link, Link presumably becomes king
Courage: Held by a scroll-writer in a previous generation (possibly the “great king”), hidden in Great Temple, recovered by Link, united with other two and wished upon by Link, Link presumably becomes king
Ganon: No title given, still deceased, with his minions working to revive him; his power remains and corrupts the order in Hyrule
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [may be the demon world spoken of in the manual]
Sages: Villages named after the Sages from OoT

SW
Whole Triforce: Resting in the Sacred Realm from creation until one(s) worthy of bearing the crests appears, touched by Ganondorf when he infiltrates the realm
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf, who became Ganon the Evil King upon infiltrating the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce and who tried to conquer Hyrule from the Sacred Realm by spreading dark power granted to him by the Triforce; this caused the Sacred Realm, which had become the Dark World, to be sealed by Seven Sages
Sacred Realm: Resting place of the Triforce hidden in Hyrule, infiltrated by Ganon and transformed into the Dark World, sealed by the Sages to stop the flow of darkness
Sages: Sealed the Sacred Realm in response to flowing darkness

ALttP
Whole Triforce: In the Pyramid of Power having been wished upon by Ganon, recovered and wished upon by Link
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf who became Ganon the Demon King of Darkness; at some point he “rediscovered the Sacred Realm” but could not return from there and wishes on the Triforce to transform the Sacred Realm into the Dark World according to his wish; successfully ruptures the Sages’ seal and prepares to move on Hyrule, but loses the Triforce to Link after being slain by the Silver Arrows
Sacred Realm: Resting place of the Triforce hidden in Hyrule, infiltrated by Ganon and transformed into the Dark World, sealed by the Sages to stop the flow of darkness, seal is dissolved by Ganon, presumably purged of darkness by Link
Sages: Maidens descended from the Sages; do not possess strong powers

LA
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: No title given, still deceased
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game

S&D
Whole Triforce: Held in the kingdom, presumably stolen by Ganon when his minions take over Hyrule Castle and imprison Zelda [prior to ALttP]
[Possible alternate story for Ganon’s possession of the Triforce in ALttP, besides the SW]
Ganon: No title given, minions work to cause havoc in Hyrule and take over the castle, presumably stealing the Triforce
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game

AST
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: No title given [same Ganon as ALttP], power/essence outlasted his body and was able to be temporarily revived before being slain by the Hero of Light with the Silver Arrows
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [may be the world where Ganon’s Tower is]
Sages: Not accounted for in this game [same characters as ALttP]

OoT
Whole Triforce: Resting in the Sacred Realm from creation until one(s) worthy of bearing the crests appears, touched by Ganondorf when he infiltrates the realm, splits into three parts and goes to those who bear the crests
Power: Received by Ganondorf when he touches the Triforce
Wisdom: Received by Zelda when Ganondorf touches the Triforce
Courage: Received by Link when Ganondorf touches the Triforce
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf, who becomes Ganon the Great Demon King upon infiltrating the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce, which splits into three parts, leaving him with only Power, and who tries to conquer Hyrule from the Sacred Realm by spreading dark power granted to him by the Triforce of Power; this causes the Sacred Realm, which had become the Dark World, to be sealed by Seven Sages and the Hero of Time, with Ganon trapped inside
Sacred Realm: Resting place of the Triforce hidden in Hyrule, sealed from the world by the Sages, infiltrated by Ganon and transformed into the Dark World, sealed again by the Sages to stop the flow of darkness
Sages: Created the Temple of Time, new Sages are awakened by Link and then seal the Sacred Realm in response to flowing darkness

MM
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: Not accounted for in this game
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game

OoS/OoA
Whole Triforce: Held in the kingdom
Ganon: “Great Demon King,” deceased, with his minions working to revive him; temporarily revived before being slain by Link
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [may be the Dark Realm]
Sages: Not accounted for in this game [may be the Old Men]

TWW
Power: Held by Ganondorf from OoT, united with other two and wished upon by Daphnes
Wisdom: Held mostly by Tetra after being passed down from OoT, part held by Daphnes, restored and held by Zelda, united with other two and wished upon by Daphnes
Courage: Separated from [OoT] Link when he went back in time and scattered, restored and held by Link, united with other two and wished upon by Daphnes
Ganon: “Great Demon King” who escapes his seal in the Sacred Realm at the hands of the Hero of Time [same Ganon as OoT] and again spreads darkness across Hyrule, causing Hyrule itself to be sealed in a torrential downpour; in the flooded world he continues to seek out the missing two Triforce parts, but is thwarted when Daphnes moves in on the completed Triforce and Link slays him with the Master Sword
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [probably the Dark Realm]
Sages: [Predecessors] gave the Master Sword its power, new Sages are awakened by Link and restore the Master Sword

FS
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: Not accounted for in this game
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game [may be the maidens in the backstory]

FSA
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: Was once a man named Ganondorf who became Ganon the Demon King of Darkness when he took an evil trident; attempts to use the Dark World to consume Hyrule but is sealed by Link and the Maidens inside the Four Sword, which the Maidens additionally seal away [in a seal greatly resembling official art for the original ALttP seal]
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [may be the Dark World]
Sages: Shrine Maidens who seal away Ganon and the Four Sword

TMC
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: Not accounted for in this game
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game [may be the Minish World]
Sages: Not accounted for in this game

TP
Power: Held by Ganondorf from OoT, crest fades from his hand upon death
Wisdom: Held by Zelda
Courage: Held by Link
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf who becomes Ganon the Great Demon King when he gains the Triforce of Power [same Ganon as OoT], and who tries to conquer Hyrule but is executed; the execution fails, causing him to be sent to the Twilight Realm, which he later escapes with the help of Zant and renews his efforts to take over Hyrule; Link slays him with the Master Sword, causing the Triforce crest to fade from his hand
Sacred Realm: Was fought over by many prior to TP [may be the Twilight Realm]
Sages: [Predecessors] forged the Master Sword, protect the Mirror of Twilight at Arbiter’s Grounds, one is slain by Ganon

PH
Whole Triforce: Not accounted for in this game
Ganon: Not accounted for in this game
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Six Sages are buried on the Isle of the Dead


CONFIRMED ARCS*

LoZ/AoL
[S&D]/ALttP/AST
OoS/OoA
OoT-TWW
OoT-TP

*Only arcs that display internal consistency for the Triforce, Ganon, the Sacred Realm, or the Sages are listed here. For example, OoT/MM and FS/FSA are not listed here because MM and FS do not feature any of the four elements we are examining here. TWW/PH is not listed here because despite both games referencing the Sages, these references are not internally consistent; despite both games featuring deceased Sages, one game has two with express roles, and one has six graves for six Sages who have different or unknown roles.


SOME SPECULATION
(all of this is my opinion, not necessarily fact in any way whatsover - although I think the developers have purposely given us ample freedom to interpret these subjects as we see fit)

AoL: The Triforce likely remains in the kingdom after Link unites it. The demon world from which monsters appear is probably the same Dark World seen in the rest of the series. The village elders who give you the spells are probably descendants of the Sages.

SW: Takes place as the first time the Sacred Realm is opened and transformed into the Dark World and the Triforce taken by Ganondorf, as well as the origins of the demonic Ganon who threatens Hyrule throughout the series. The story becomes obscured as it is passed down over time.

S&D: A retelling of ALttP’s immediate prologue in a more dramatic fashion. S&D precludes previously-held interpretations of ALttP.

AST: Indicates that Ganon’s death does not destroy his spirit but only his body, confirming what the developers have said about there being only one Ganon.

OoT: A retelling of the SW that adapts the SNES manual into a full story. This was confirmed by developers upon OoT’s release.

OoS/OoA: The Triforce’s presence in the castle at the beginning and end indicates continuity with LoZ/AoL’s ending, as well as possibly with S&D’s beginning if it is canon. The deceased Ganon is probably that of LoZ as they feature the same title. The Triforce crest borne by Link probably has its roots in the king’s spell featured in AoL. The Dark Realm spoken of is probably the same Dark World as seen in the rest of the series.

TWW: The Triforce being reunited may indicate that TWW precludes another game where the Triforce begins united. The Dark Realm spoken of is probably the same Dark World as seen in the rest of the series. The Sages in this game are related to the Sages from OoT, despite having different roles. At least some legends from Hyrule definitely survive in TWW’s time, as indicated by the existence of the Hero legend, which is part of the greater legend of the Sages’ Seal. Even though Daphnes destroys Hyrule in the ending, this does not prevent his descendants from building a new one, even one inspired by the old.

FSA: The chamber that Zelda enters in the game’s ending holds the Triforce, as it features the only Triforce mark in the entire game. Ganondorf taking the trident allows the spirit of the deceased Ganon (existing similarly to AST’s Ganon) to revive through him. This incarnation of Ganon is the same one from ALttP; the Maidens’ seal on the Four Sword causes him to be sealed in the Dark World. This Dark World is the same one from ALttP and the rest of the series.These Maidens predate the ALttP ones as they still possess strong magical powers. This seal serves as the new explanation for ALttP Ganon’s presence in the Dark World, as ALttP is not a direct sequel to OoT, but OoT tells the story of the Sages’ Seal (originally ALttP Ganon’s backstory). It also is tied to the Palace of the Four Sword in GBA ALttP, which previously had no link to the Four Sword series.


In general I conclude that the Sages' Seal story, by ALttP, still exists as a story of the Golden Power that once lay hidden in Hyrule and the darkness that the search for the Golden Power wrought and the means used to stop that darkness from conquering the world - but that due to the constant tug-of-war between light and darkness over Hyrule and the Triforce, future generations continue to associate this ancient myth with more recent events and sealings (TWW's backstory, LoZ, OoX, FSA).

I think this is likely the inevitable truth if the war falls on the CT, as otherwise I cannot see the IW's own internal story placement (the Triforce "still rested" in the Sacred Realm after creation when the war took place according to the GBA manual) as being even remotely accurate otherwise.

I'm going to focus in on these quotes to get this portion of the debate going:

First and foremost...

Originally Posted by Artemicion

S&D: A retelling of ALttP’s immediate prologue in a more dramatic fashion. S&D precludes previously-held interpretations of ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

S&D
Whole Triforce: Held in the kingdom, presumably stolen by Ganon when his minions take over Hyrule Castle and imprison Zelda [prior to ALttP]
[Possible alternate story for Ganon’s possession of the Triforce in ALttP, besides the SW]
Ganon: No title given, minions work to cause havoc in Hyrule and take over the castle, presumably stealing the Triforce
Sacred Realm: Not accounted for in this game
Sages: Not accounted for in this game

I've never been as confident as you are in gambling that S&D is reliable canon in the first place. Whether it's licensed by Nintendo or not, S&D reflects an old perspective of the series when it was young and fresh with other spin offs. The script parallels the stigma of the old LoZ and ALttP magna as well. Your reliance on the game itself to insure the Triforce ends up in Ganon's hands, and back into the SR/DW, is highly debatable. However it is the only means for which the State of the Triforce can run consistent from the SW (OoT) to ALttP in your case.

I'm going to digress from this point to the more intermediate events which surround OoT (should it still some how encompass the SW events) and TP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

SW
Whole Triforce: Resting in the Sacred Realm from creation until one(s) worthy of bearing the crests appears, touched by Ganondorf when he infiltrates the realm
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf, who became Ganon the Evil King upon infiltrating the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce and who tried to conquer Hyrule from the Sacred Realm by spreading dark power granted to him by the Triforce; this caused the Sacred Realm, which had become the Dark World, to be sealed by Seven Sages
Sacred Realm: Resting place of the Triforce hidden in Hyrule, infiltrated by Ganon and transformed into the Dark World, sealed by the Sages to stop the flow of darkness
Sages: Sealed the Sacred Realm in response to flowing darkness

Originally Posted by Artemicion

OoT
Whole Triforce: Resting in the Sacred Realm from creation until one(s) worthy of bearing the crests appears, touched by Ganondorf when he infiltrates the realm, splits into three parts and goes to those who bear the crests
Power: Received by Ganondorf when he touches the Triforce
Wisdom: Received by Zelda when Ganondorf touches the Triforce
Courage: Received by Link when Ganondorf touches the Triforce
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf, who becomes Ganon the Great Demon King upon infiltrating the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce, which splits into three parts, leaving him with only Power, and who tries to conquer Hyrule from the Sacred Realm by spreading dark power granted to him by the Triforce of Power; this causes the Sacred Realm, which had become the Dark World, to be sealed by Seven Sages and the Hero of Time, with Ganon trapped inside
Sacred Realm: Resting place of the Triforce hidden in Hyrule, sealed from the world by the Sages, infiltrated by Ganon and transformed into the Dark World, sealed again by the Sages to stop the flow of darkness
Sages: Created the Temple of Time, new Sages are awakened by Link and then seal the Sacred Realm in response to flowing darkness

Originally Posted by Artemicion

TP
Power: Held by Ganondorf from OoT, crest fades from his hand upon death
Wisdom: Held by Zelda
Courage: Held by Link
Ganon: Was once an evil thief named Ganondorf who becomes Ganon the Great Demon King when he gains the Triforce of Power [same Ganon as OoT], and who tries to conquer Hyrule but is executed; the execution fails, causing him to be sent to the Twilight Realm, which he later escapes with the help of Zant and renews his efforts to take over Hyrule; Link slays him with the Master Sword, causing the Triforce crest to fade from his hand
Sacred Realm: Was fought over by many prior to TP [may be the Twilight Realm]
Sages: [Predecessors] forged the Master Sword, protect the Mirror of Twilight at Arbiter’s Grounds, one is slain by Ganon

With the bold texts in mind; in your opinion, how does Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda acquire their respective Triforce pieces in the CT?

I've seen others say at LA that the three didn't literally have the Triforce pieces. How does THAT work out if someone didn't initially touch the relic in the first place?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

FSA: The chamber that Zelda enters in the game’s ending holds the Triforce, as it features the only Triforce mark in the entire game. Ganondorf taking the trident allows the spirit of the deceased Ganon (existing similarly to AST’s Ganon) to revive through him. This incarnation of Ganon is the same one from ALttP; the Maidens’ seal on the Four Sword causes him to be sealed in the Dark World.

Highly speculative on the account of S&D. I want to pursue other ways in which the Triforce ends up back in the SR (on the CT of course). which use the main 14 titles.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

This Dark World is the same one from ALttP and the rest of the series.These Maidens predate the ALttP ones as they still possess strong magical powers. This seal serves as the new explanation for ALttP Ganon’s presence in the Dark World, as ALttP is not a direct sequel to OoT, but OoT tells the story of the Sages’ Seal (originally ALttP Ganon’s backstory). It also is tied to the Palace of the Four Sword in GBA ALttP, which previously had no link to the Four Sword series.

We're not ready to hit the Sacred Realm/Dark World matter, but I agree with what you are saying. The fact of the matter that when Ganon curiously targeted the maidens in the first place, weakened the seal of his makai in parts of Hyrule (keeping in mind that Vaati was also draining the force (light) from regions in the land; which caused the TR to overlap the Light World and Dark World transfusion).

This is a valid bias which I will argue further in this thread when the time comes.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I think this is likely the inevitable truth if the war falls on the CT, as otherwise I cannot see the IW's own internal story placement (the Triforce "still rested" in the Sacred Realm after creation when the war took place according to the GBA manual) as being even remotely accurate otherwise.

So you believe if the SW is to be on the CT, its story is obscured and skewed with other future events, as opposed to if it were on the AT, where OoT fully plays out the SW with fewer historical recollection discrepancies?

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

I've never been as confident as you are in gambling that S&D is reliable canon in the first place. Whether it's licensed by Nintendo or not, S&D reflects an old perspective of the series when it was young and fresh with other spin offs. The script parallels the stigma of the old LoZ and ALttP magna as well. Your reliance on the game itself to insure the Triforce ends up in Ganon's hands, and back into the SR/DW, is highly debatable. However it is the only means for which the State of the Triforce can run consistent from the SW (OoT) to ALttP in your case.

Here's the thing about S&D and whether other games support its existence in canon:

At the time of ALttP, S&D would have allowed the game to follow LoZ/AoL - an intent which Miyamoto seems to have reflected in 1998 with his statement on the timeline (which I understand theorists are hostile towards).

At the time of OoT, the same is true - if we see OoT as the creation of the Sages' seal, LoZ/AoL as the reunion of the Triforce that needed to happen for ALttP to occur, and S&D as the bridge between LoZ/AoL and ALttP that places the Triforce back in Ganon's hands, S&D would have been the key to making a complete working timeline in 1998 (which I think is reflected in Miyamoto's timeline).

Newer games have in my opinion only underlined the need for/inclusion of S&D - OoX ended with the Triforce in the royal family's hands, as it is in S&D; TWW itself failed to fix any of the problems with a direct connection between OoT and ALttP, which everybody seemed to presume at the time (in fact, it rendered such a progression impossible); FSA showed us inarguably that there was in fact another incarnation of Ganondorf that appeared between OoT and ALttP; and TP kills off the idea of a direct OoT-ALttP progression on the Child timeline.

With the bold texts in mind; in your opinion, how does Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda acquire their respective Triforce pieces in the CT?

I've seen others say at LA that the three didn't literally have the Triforce pieces. How does THAT work out if someone didn't initially touch the relic in the first place?

I have never had the impression that anything different happened on the Child Timeline than on the Adult Timeline in terms of how the bearers received their parts. Ganondorf still seems to have made his move to conquer the Sacred Realm/Hyrule on the Child Timeline, and he still wound up with his Triforce.

I know people say it was a "divine prank" and that he was "chosen" to receive the Triforce according to the game, but "divine prank" is actually a metaphor for an unfortunate twist of fate (an "unfortunate coincidence" as OoT itself puts it, referring to Ganondorf's infiltration of the Sacred Realm), and being "chosen" in OoT didn't mean you got the part automatically, but that you got the part when someone touched the Triforce.

So you believe if the SW is to be on the CT, its story is obscured and skewed with other future events, as opposed to if it were on the AT, where OoT fully plays out the SW with fewer historical recollection discrepancies?

On the CT, we know at least that Link's story from OoT does in some way echo (MM says so), and FSA holds many parallels to ALttP's war story, so it would seem that the seal of the maidens (FSA) became associated with the story of the sages (OoT). So OoT would still be the IW - in the sense that it is in an indirect way the story that the legend is based on.

On both timelines, regardless of whether the seal cast in OoT remained intact until ALttP (or whether the seal was cast at all, for the Child Timeline), it is clear that the Sages' seals are a "recast" of their first seal on the Sacred Realm (the ones in the Temple of Time), so as long as some sort of seal of their creation remains on the Sacred Realm (cough, FSA), that would qualify as the "Sages' seal," in my opinion.

I kind of think that the events of OOT and FSA were merged into one story. Which is actually pretty accurate IMO!

Originally Posted by Artemicion

At the time of ALttP, S&D would have allowed the game to follow LoZ/AoL - an intent which Miyamoto seems to have reflected in 1998 with his statement on the timeline (which I understand theorists are hostile towards).

This would have been true for the time period before Dan Owsen's indicated he didn't have a clue what the timeline was. But in regards to that, Aonuma's word holds more validity in claims that there is a timeline (even if not a full-timeline document, their would be references between titles meant to connect to each other directly). Theorists are up in arms against the Miyamoto order because of his attitude towards storyline - which isn't a just claim when trying to prove other timeline possibilities in spite of one factor that doesn't go well with their current bias.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

At the time of OoT, the same is true - if we see OoT as the creation of the Sages' seal, LoZ/AoL as the reunion of the Triforce that needed to happen for ALttP to occur, and S&D as the bridge between LoZ/AoL and ALttP that places the Triforce back in Ganon's hands, S&D would have been the key to making a complete working timeline in 1998 (which I think is reflected in Miyamoto's timeline).

I believe OoX would have fulfilled S&D purpose in those regards - as an updated outcome. But all we get is a cheap ending with the Triforce floating away from Hyrule Castle; no accurate metaphorical or literal interpretation for that instance in my opinion. If their were proof that it were to be taken literally, I would be happy to dismiss any need for S&D as canon.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I know people say it was a "divine prank" and that he was "chosen" to receive the Triforce according to the game, but "divine prank" is actually a metaphor for an unfortunate twist of fate (an "unfortunate coincidence" as OoT itself puts it, referring to Ganondorf's infiltration of the Sacred Realm), and being "chosen" in OoT didn't mean you got the part automatically, but that you got the part when someone touched the Triforce.

As discussed over AIM:

LOZ Historian (12:21:42 PM):
I think what people have a problem with is imagining the Sages would be so stupid to take him out of the SR and execute him in Hyrule. And another question raises: How did they catch him off guard after making his wish upon the Triforce?

Seran Aileron (12:22:41 PM):
I still can't comprehend why the sages themselves saying "we were careless" doesn't justify the first, and as for the second: catching him off guard is catching him off guard, Triforce or not.

LOZ Historian (12:22:59 PM):
I agree.

LOZ Historian (12:23:40 PM):
But for others its just not that simple. People NEED to see the transpired events of what EXACTLY happened when Link returned from the future.

Seran Aileron (12:23:57 PM):
I know.

LOZ Historian (12:24:15 PM):
Apparently the Triforce of Courage glimmering on the back of Links hand - in the OoT end credits - means nothing.

Seran Aileron (12:24:36 PM):
Well, it can mean a few things

Seran Aileron (12:24:52 PM):
did he take it back in time with him? (doesn't seem to be that easy)

Seran Aileron (12:25:00 PM):
did he get it because Ganondorf touched the Triforce?

Seran Aileron (12:25:04 PM):
did he get it because he was "chosen"?

------------

I'll leave it at that there.

Edit:

But I will say this: The latter possibility always rings in my head to suggest that the Gods of Hyrule must be assholes, giving Ganondorf a piece of the Triforce and all.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

On the CT, we know at least that Link's story from OoT does in some way echo (MM says so), and FSA holds many parallels to ALttP's war story, so it would seem that the seal of the maidens (FSA) became associated with the story of the sages (OoT). So OoT would still be the IW - in the sense that it is in an indirect way the story that the legend is based on.

On both timelines, regardless of whether the seal cast in OoT remained intact until ALttP (or whether the seal was cast at all, for the Child Timeline), it is clear that the Sages' seals are a "recast" of their first seal on the Sacred Realm (the ones in the Temple of Time), so as long as some sort of seal of their creation remains on the Sacred Realm (cough, FSA), that would qualify as the "Sages' seal," in my opinion.

So let me get this straight in visual form:

CT-Placement Perspective:

----------TWW/PH
-----------/
(TMC)-OoT[First half of SW]
-----------\
-----------MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-(OoX)-(TMC)-FS/FSA[Second half SW skewed]-(OoX)-ALttP/LA

AT-Placement Perspective:

----------TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-(OoX)-(TMC)-FS/FSA-(OoX)-ALttP/LA
-----------/
(TMC)-OoT[SW]
-----------\
-----------MM-TP

------------

I imagine on both the CT and AT, the Temple of Time served as the initial seal on the SR. Without that barrier, the nature/state of the SR would flow through Hyrule should evil enter it and obtain the Triforce. As we can see in TP, the Temple of Time no longer serves as that barrier between the realms since it is in ruins. As a side note: The Sages Seal at the end of OoT (AT) replaces the failed barriers of the Temple of Time too. So the question is, "What is keeping the SR region safe on the CT if their isn't a seal?"

But now we're interrelating into stuff that's not State of the Triforce - specific... I want a skeptic to challenge the fact Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda, didn't literally possess the physical Triforce pieces, before we move on.

Since others have already listed the states of the Triforce/Sages/etc. in the games, I'll just go ahead and explain my views on a Child Timeline IW.

On the Child Timeline, the IW would occur between FSA and ALttP. After being used to seal Ganon, the Four Sword would be moved to the Sacred Realm, presumably as an additional security measure. This would utterly backfire when Ganondorf frees himself from the blade and claims the Triforce. The backstory mentioned in the manuals and the game (demon invasion, Knights' sacrifice, etc.) would then take place.

Because of the Divine Prank in TP and the Triforce pieces apparently abandoning their owners upon death, the public would not know that the Triforce ever left the Sacred Realm, and thus rumors of it would still be around and people would still try to claim it.

Regarding the status of Ganon for this, he'd die in TP (obviously) and be reincarnated in FSA.

Now on to little comments:

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Here's the thing about S&D and whether other games support its existence in canon:

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again.

First, in Sound & Drama, Zelda blatantly sees her father's corpse. However, in A Link to the Past, she can only guess her father's fate.

Originally Posted by Zelda (Japanese Translation)

Father is probably already...

She ultimately doesn't know what Agahnim has done with her father. This is a large contradiction.

Second, Ganon's minions in Sound & Drama state that they've killed everyone in the castle. This is a major problem if they are invading demons, as there would be no guards for A Link to the Past. If the S&D goons were brainwashed guards, then there's another complication; In A Link to the Past, a guard on a rooftop casually mentions that people have been acting strangely ever since Agahnim arrived and wonders if he'll begin acting strangely as well.

Originally Posted by Rooftop Guard (Japanese Translation)

Phew, ever since the priest Aghanim came, it's like something's happened to everyone. Wonder if I'll get like that too.

If the Hyrulian army was brainwashed in S&D, this rooftop guard should have tried to kill Link instead of talking to him. If the guards weren't brainwashed, then the rooftop guard should have been dead. It appears that S&D really can't connect to ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

At the time of OoT, the same is true - if we see OoT as the creation of the Sages' seal, LoZ/AoL as the reunion of the Triforce that needed to happen for ALttP to occur,

There's another problem with this. In AoL, it is mentioned that Ganon's minions can bring soldiers out of his Makai without any difficulty. If LoZ comes right after OoT, Ganon's Makai must be the Sacred Realm. Thus, there would no longer be a seal on the Sacred Realm, meaning that there would be no seal for ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I have never had the impression that anything different happened on the Child Timeline than on the Adult Timeline in terms of how the bearers received their parts. Ganondorf still seems to have made his move to conquer the Sacred Realm/Hyrule on the Child Timeline, and he still wound up with his Triforce.

If Ganondorf gained the ToP and knew it a la OoT, he would have conquered Hyrule just the same. He'd be too powerful for anyone to defeat at that point, and Ocarina of Time suggests that Ganondorf conquered Hyrule on the same day that he gained the ToP. In other words, if Link getting sent back somehow trapped Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm, he'd have known about it and there would be no element of surprise to take advantage of. The Sages in TP are also absolutely surprised that Ganondorf has a piece of the Triforce, whereas they should have expected such a thing if he accessed the Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I still can't comprehend why the sages themselves saying "we were careless" doesn't justify the first, and as for the second: catching him off guard is catching him off guard, Triforce or not.

This matter has been discussed before. The translator Jumbie from Legends Alliance has looked at the original text and determined that the TP Sages only felt bad for using the Mirror of Twilight as a panicked last resort, not for trying to kill Ganondorf. Also, the Sages never say that they caught Ganondorf.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

On the Child Timeline, the IW would occur between FSA and ALttP. After being used to seal Ganon, the Four Sword would be moved to the Sacred Realm, presumably as an additional security measure. This would utterly backfire when Ganondorf frees himself from the blade and claims the Triforce. The backstory mentioned in the manuals and the game (demon invasion, Knights' sacrifice, etc.) would then take place.

When we get further into the debate over the State of the SR/Dark World, I'm curious about your stance on the nature of what the DW is in FSA.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

If Ganondorf gained the ToP and knew it a la OoT, he would have conquered Hyrule just the same. He'd be too powerful for anyone to defeat at that point, and Ocarina of Time suggests that Ganondorf conquered Hyrule on the same day that he gained the ToP. In other words, if Link getting sent back somehow trapped Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm, he'd have known about it and there would be no element of surprise to take advantage of. The Sages in TP are also absolutely surprised that Ganondorf has a piece of the Triforce, whereas they should have expected such a thing if he accessed the Sacred Realm.

What solution do you propose in how the three ended up with their respective Triforce pieces?

As you know, I'm not to found of the Gods handing them over, especially to Ganondorf. I'd be more willing to accept an alternative, that some sort of freakish-paradox happened when Link went back in time with the ToC: the piece Link held jolted the Triforce apart, and the other two pieces went to their respective owners as they were in the now obsolete future of OoT.

And also:

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

There's another problem with this. In AoL, it is mentioned that Ganon's minions can bring soldiers out of his Makai without any difficulty. If LoZ comes right after OoT, Ganon's Makai must be the Sacred Realm. Thus, there would no longer be a seal on the Sacred Realm, meaning that there would be no seal for ALttP.

If LoZ/AoL comes before ALttP, where and how did his makai form if the scenario of Ganondorf touching the Triforce didn't play out in OoT (CT) like Lex suggests?

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

What solution do you propose in how the three ended up with their respective Triforce pieces?

I believe that Link being sent across timelines while holding the ToC messed things up. The ToC of the Adult Timeline was forced to abandon Link, but because he was the rightful owner of the ToC at the time, the ToC of the Child Timeline was attracted/went to him, causing a Triforce split on the Child Timeline. Nobody would be aware of this, which is why Ganondorf did not use the ToP until the execution scene in TP, where it made its presence known by saving Ganondorf's life.

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

If LoZ/AoL comes before ALttP, where and how did his makai form if the scenario of Ganondorf touching the Triforce didn't play out in OoT (CT) like Lex suggests?

I personally don't think that LoZ/AoL would come before ALttP on the Child Timeline. I probably could have written my initial statement better, as I partially thought that Lex was trying to push one of his Adult Timeline placements again.

Do you think it's possibly that there are two sets of the Triforce because of the split? If not what happened to ganon's at the end of TP.

@AG: In A Link to the Past's original manual, it is said that "[t]he Triforce would continue to shine in a sacred place that exists somewhere in the world, until persons would appear who had the three crests of, respectively, 'one who rules power,' 'one who administers wisdom,' and one who trains/tempers courage,' and who were suitable of inheriting this power." (translation by Jumbie)

These crest-bearers appeared in OoT, on both sides of the timeline split. Shouldn't the Triforce no longer be in the Sacred Realm at the point in history where you place the IW? If not, how did it get back there, and what evidence is there for this?

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again.

First, in Sound & Drama, Zelda blatantly sees her father's corpse. However, in A Link to the Past, she can only guess her father's fate.

I don't think this discrepancy is a contradiction per se, and even if it is, I don't think that post-release materials contradicting the source text really matters in any way whatsoever - it's a supplement to the game that tells a certain part of the story in more detail. Like OoT, which depicted the Sages as being members of the various races, contradicting ALttP which showed them as all Hylians, I don't think these kinds of "small contradictions" really impact whether we should consider the content of a source as valid.

Ganon's minions in Sound & Drama state that they've killed everyone in the castle. This is a major problem if they are invading demons, as there would be no guards for A Link to the Past. If the S&D goons were brainwashed guards, then there's another complication; In A Link to the Past, a guard on a rooftop casually mentions that people have been acting strangely ever since Agahnim arrived and wonders if he'll begin acting strangely as well.

Oh knoes, one person survived the attack and avoided being brainwashed. This contradicts the text so utterly that the text cannot possibly be canon.

Do you want to know what A Link to the Past says on the matter?

"This castle's guards are all being manipulated by the priest Aghanim's black magic."

Oh knoes, one person is not brainwashed. This contradicts the text! Yeah, come on.

In AoL, it is mentioned that Ganon's minions can bring soldiers out of his Makai without any difficulty. If LoZ comes right after OoT, Ganon's Makai must be the Sacred Realm. Thus, there would no longer be a seal on the Sacred Realm, meaning that there would be no seal for ALttP.

That depends.

The Sacred Realm was originally sealed away by the Ancient Sages prior to OoT. In OoT, when the Sages prepare to seal Ganon, they "open the sealed door" and thrust him inside, then seal the door to trap him inside.

So it would seem that the "seal" may be a permanent magical doorway that the Sages are able to manipulate. In this case, Ganondorf could "break" through the seal (as removing the Master Sword broke the seal), and the Sages could simply re-seal it at a later date (FSA). As long as the seal exists and is intact in ALttP, there would be no need for the Seal War itself to exist at a later date than OoT - especially given that in FSA the fighting is not about the Triforce as the Seal War is (although one could argue that it is about the Sacred Realm).

If Ganondorf gained the ToP and knew it a la OoT, he would have conquered Hyrule just the same. He'd be too powerful for anyone to defeat at that point, and Ocarina of Time suggests that Ganondorf conquered Hyrule on the same day that he gained the ToP.

1) This is speculation.
2) Ocarina of Time refers to the day Ganon assaulted the castle in order to obtain the titular ocarina, not necessarily the day Ganon conquered Hyrule altogether.

In other words, if Link getting sent back somehow trapped Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm, he'd have known about it and there would be no element of surprise to take advantage of. The Sages in TP are also absolutely surprised that Ganondorf has a piece of the Triforce, whereas they should have expected such a thing if he accessed the Sacred Realm.

1) I don't think the element of surprise would be eliminated if Ganon was unable to exit the Sacred Realm. He's still a rat in a cage and all his captors have to do is spring the trap when the opportunity arises. Besides, I don't believe there is necessarily much time between the end of OoT and his capture.

2) The Sages' surprise can be interpreted in a few different ways; they are certainly reacting to his revival, but I think the focus on his Triforce mark is supposed to be for the player.

This matter has been discussed before. The translator Jumbie from Legends Alliance has looked at the original text and determined that the TP Sages only felt bad for using the Mirror of Twilight as a panicked last resort, not for trying to kill Ganondorf.

Jumbie's interpretation =/= canon. The translation itself may be helpful in interpreting things that may be unclear or distorted in the English version, but his interpretation is as valid as anyone else's when reading the translated text.

Also, the Sages never say that they caught Ganondorf.

It's really irrelevant who caught Ganon, as in any case he was caught.

If this continues LOZ Historian's thread is probably going to get derailed, so I'll make this my last post on these subjects since we've had this discussion many times before and we've now covered all of our points.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

@AG: In A Link to the Past's original manual, it is said that "[t]he Triforce would continue to shine in a sacred place that exists somewhere in the world, until persons would appear who had the three crests of, respectively, 'one who rules power,' 'one who administers wisdom,' and one who trains/tempers courage,' and who were suitable of inheriting this power." (translation by Jumbie)

These crest-bearers appeared in OoT, on both sides of the timeline split.

The mere presence of these people, however, does not seem to be enough, as Ganondorf only gained the ToP when he touched the Triforce, and Link and Zelda gained their pieces only after the split.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Shouldn't the Triforce no longer be in the Sacred Realm at the point in history where you place the IW? If not, how did it get back there, and what evidence is there for this?

In TP, the Triforce of Power abandons Ganondorf, at which point he dies. Since nobody made any effort to claim the ToP, it didn't pull an LoZ and drop out of his body, and since the natural resting place of the Triforce appears to be the Sacred Realm, the ToP presumably went back there. The other Triforce pieces would presumably return to the Sacred Realm once their owners died as well. The ToW may have already left due to the sacrificing/soul-hopping/etc. done by Zelda and Midna, and all it takes for the ToC to return is Link not having kids or the piece not being passed down due to the fact that his "purpose" (tying up ancient loose ends brought about by the timeline split) was fulfilled.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I don't think this discrepancy is a contradiction per se, and even if it is, I don't think that post-release materials contradicting the source text really matters in any way whatsoever - it's a supplement to the game that tells a certain part of the story in more detail.

They utterly contradict each other.

S&D
-Zelda blatantly sees her father's dead body.

ALttP
-Zelda can only guess her father's fate.

Also, a goon in S&D says something like "Yes, and for Ganon we killed all of Hyrule," implying that the army slaughtered every citizen in the land, which we clearly know isn't the case in ALttP. Additionally, when ALttP was re-released on the GBA, the original script was kept intact (Japanese release), giving no room to S&D.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Like OoT, which depicted the Sages as being members of the various races, contradicting ALttP which showed them as all Hylians, I don't think these kinds of "small contradictions" really impact whether we should consider the content of a source as valid.

The Sage contradiction is actually major as well. In ALttP, the Sage bloodline mentioned in the story is actually a literal one (Japanese Translations), meaning that the IW Sages had to have been Hylian.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Oh knoes, one person survived the attack and avoided being brainwashed. This contradicts the text so utterly that the text cannot possibly be canon.

Lex, if he wasn't brainwashed he'd be dead based on the S&D goon's statement, and if the guard somehow escaped the goons he shouldn't have a job as a guard at the castle if he's a target.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

"This castle's guards are all being manipulated by the priest Aghanim's black magic."

All save for a tiny few, who were apparently brainwashed the same night judging from their disappearance. Also, as I've mentioned before, S&D suggests that Ganon's army slaughtered everyone in the castle, meaning that no guards would be left for ALttP. If Ganon's S&D goons were the brainwashed soldiers they'd have killed everyone who wasn't on their side in the offensive, meaning there'd be no leftovers like the rooftop guard, especially when you consider that the S&D goons set the castle on fire and abandoned it.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The Sacred Realm was originally sealed away by the Ancient Sages prior to OoT. In OoT, when the Sages prepare to seal Ganon, they "open the sealed door" and thrust him inside, then seal the door to trap him inside.

The two seals, however, are not the same. In OoT the initial seal involved the Master Sword and the Door of Time. In OoT's ending, the seal consisted of the Sages' combined power forcing the realm shut.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

So it would seem that the "seal" may be a permanent magical doorway that the Sages are able to manipulate. In this case, Ganondorf could "break" through the seal (as removing the Master Sword broke the seal), and the Sages could simply re-seal it at a later date (FSA).

There is no mention of a new Sages' Seal being cast in FSA at all, and one would think that ALttP would bring up the massively critical issue of Ganon breaking the seal before and devastating the land. That's not something you forget, especially not when it's more recent than the first sealing and led to the coming of the second Great King.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

As long as the seal exists and is intact in ALttP, there would be no need for the Seal War itself to exist at a later date than OoT

If the IW seal was broken in LoZ and a new one was made to act as the seal in ALttP, mentioning the IW wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, considering that its seal would already have been destroyed and that a different seal would be in place for ALttP.

To emphasize what I'm saying, here's a little discussion I typed up:

"And then the Sages cast a seal and Ganon was trapped in the Sacred Realm."

So this Ganon guy is trying to break that seal?"

"Nope. He broke it ages ago then died. This is a new Ganon and a new seal."

"If this is a new guy and a new seal, why'd you tell me about the old guy and the old seal? That's not relevant to this current issue at all."

"I dunno."

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) This is speculation.

It's heavily supported by Ocarina of Time.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

2) Ocarina of Time refers to the day Ganon assaulted the castle in order to obtain the titular ocarina, not necessarily the day Ganon conquered Hyrule altogether.

Numerous characters in Ocarina of Time refer to a particular day seven years ago, whether it be about the windmill or Castle Town, implying that they are all speaking about the same day. In OoT's ending, Ganondorf also refers to this particular day seven years ago when he speaks of claiming the Triforce of Power.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) I don't think the element of surprise would be eliminated if Ganon was unable to exit the Sacred Realm.

They couldn't spring any sort of trap on him. He'd be ready for anyone and perfectly capable of crushing them with ease due to the ToP. It'd also be foolish for anyone to risk dragging Ganondorf into Hyrule when they know that he's locked up in the Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Besides, I don't believe there is necessarily much time between the end of OoT and his capture.

Zelda and Impa would have to be utter fools to instantly head back to the castle after fleeing from Ganondorf while, to their knowledge, a battle at the castle was still going on. It'd be like leaving a battlefield and then immediately saying "Let's go back right now and hope that in the short time we were gone everything worked out perfectly and that the incredibly dangerous guy following us vanished for some reason." The King of Hyrule would also have to be a fool to let his daughter sit around alone in a courtyard just hours after an attack on his kingdom and an attempt to kidnap/harm Zelda.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

2) The Sages' surprise can be interpreted in a few different ways; they are certainly reacting to his revival, but I think the focus on his Triforce mark is supposed to be for the player.

Except the Water Sage is mortified upon seeing Ganondorf's Triforce mark, leaning back and gasping in horror. It's clear that they had no idea that Ganondorf possessed a Triforce piece. Otherwise there would be no point in the additional reaction shown by the Water Sage.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Jumbie's interpretation =/= canon.

Jumbie knows Japanese; you don't. It's far more reasonable to trust his interpretation of the original Japanese text, especially since the apology of the Sages came right after Midna spoke of being overthrown.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

The mere presence of these people, however, does not seem to be enough, as Ganondorf only gained the ToP when he touched the Triforce, and Link and Zelda gained their pieces only after the split.

That doesn't change my point in any way whatsoever - the crest-bearers have already appeared on both timelines.

In TP, the Triforce of Power abandons Ganondorf, at which point he dies. Since nobody made any effort to claim the ToP, it didn't pull an LoZ and drop out of his body, and since the natural resting place of the Triforce appears to be the Sacred Realm, the ToP presumably went back there. The other Triforce pieces would presumably return to the Sacred Realm once their owners died as well. The ToW may have already left due to the sacrificing/soul-hopping/etc. done by Zelda and Midna, and all it takes for the ToC to return is Link not having kids or the piece not being passed down due to the fact that his "purpose" (tying up ancient loose ends brought about by the timeline split) was fulfilled.

I asked for evidence, not speculation.

They utterly contradict each other.

S&D
-Zelda blatantly sees her father's dead body.

ALttP
-Zelda can only guess her father's fate.

We hear also in ALttP that the king of Hyrule was "eliminated" and even see his corpse on the throne. Yet Zelda's line in ALttP exists regardless. This is a contradiction with ALttP's text just as well as with S&D's.

Also, a goon in S&D says something like "Yes, and for Ganon we killed all of Hyrule," implying that the army slaughtered every citizen in the land, which we clearly know isn't the case in ALttP.

Or in S&D; Alphon and Link are still alive.

The Sage contradiction is actually major as well. In ALttP, the Sage bloodline mentioned in the story is actually a literal one (Japanese Translations), meaning that the IW Sages had to have been Hylian.

The bloodline is apparently actually literal in TWW as well - so I don't see why it can't be literal all the way down to ALttP if such bloodlines can endure passage between races.

Lex, if he wasn't brainwashed he'd be dead based on the S&D goon's statement, and if the guard somehow escaped the goons he shouldn't have a job as a guard at the castle if he's a target.

ALttP says all the guards were brainwashed, but this guard is an exception.

Or are you saying that your text can have exceptions, but mine can't?

especially when you consider that the S&D goons set the castle on fire and abandoned it.

Just like Zant's goons in TP. I don't see why you think this is a contradiction.

The two seals, however, are not the same. In OoT the initial seal involved the Master Sword and the Door of Time. In OoT's ending, the seal consisted of the Sages' combined power forcing the realm shut.

The initial seal closed the gateway between the realms; in OoT's ending, the Sages used their own power to seal the same gateway.

There is no mention of a new Sages' Seal being cast in FSA at all

I'm talking about the seal on the Four Sword at the end, which is the same in appearance as the original depictions of the Sages' Seal that we saw in ALttP's art.

and one would think that ALttP would bring up the massively critical issue of Ganon breaking the seal before and devastating the land.

This applies to both timelines, really.

If the IW seal was broken in LoZ and a new one was made to act as the seal in ALttP, mentioning the IW wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, considering that its seal would already have been destroyed and that a different seal would be in place for ALttP.

If the Triforce was placed in the Sacred Realm at creation, removed from the Sacred Realm when the bearers received the crests, and returned to the Sacred Realm to be captured by the Ganon of the IW, mentioning the creation wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, considering that the Triforce was already taken after its placement in the realm at the creation and its most recent seizure depends on other events not mentioned in ALttP.

Again, this is a problem with any placement of the IW.

"And then the Sages cast a seal and Ganon was trapped in the Sacred Realm."

So this Ganon guy is trying to break that seal?"

"Nope. He broke it ages ago then died. This is a new Ganon and a new seal."

"If this is a new guy and a new seal, why'd you tell me about the old guy and the old seal? That's not relevant to this current issue at all."

"I dunno."

1) No one ever mentions the old guy.
2) Again, it's about as relevant to a late placed ALttP as the creation is to a late-placed IW.

Numerous characters in Ocarina of Time refer to a particular day seven years ago, whether it be about the windmill or Castle Town, implying that they are all speaking about the same day. In OoT's ending, Ganondorf also refers to this particular day seven years ago when he speaks of claiming the Triforce of Power.

But they need not necessarily be speaking about the same day. More than likely they are in fact not, especially considering the windmill.

They couldn't spring any sort of trap on him. He'd be ready for anyone and perfectly capable of crushing them with ease due to the ToP. It'd also be foolish for anyone to risk dragging Ganondorf into Hyrule when they know that he's locked up in the Sacred Realm.

1) They couldn't? The game says they did.
2) Like he did in your version of the IW when he used the entire Triforce?
3) The Sages themselves say they were foolish, so what's wrong with me saying they were foolish?

Zelda and Impa would have to be utter fools to instantly head back to the castle after fleeing from Ganondorf while, to their knowledge, a battle at the castle was still going on.

They were utter fools. Zelda had Link open the Sacred Realm, allowing Ganondorf to get inside and steal the Triforce.

Besides, if Link went to see Zelda regarding the mark on his hand, one could imagine that Zelda too noticed/sensed the appearance of a mark on her own/his hand and returned to the "scene of the crime" to investigate.

She's hanging around the Temple of Time, which in OoT is in the shadow of Ganon's Tower, when you arrive in the future anyway (and meets you there only to be captured by Ganon when you prepare to assault the tower), so she most certainly is as much of an idiot as you seem to think she cannot possibly be.

Except the Water Sage is mortified upon seeing Ganondorf's Triforce mark, leaning back and gasping in horror. It's clear that they had no idea that Ganondorf possessed a Triforce piece. Otherwise there would be no point in the additional reaction shown by the Water Sage.

The Water Sage is also the one Ganondorf lunges at and kills.

Jumbie knows Japanese; you don't. It's far more reasonable to trust his interpretation of the original Japanese text, especially since the apology of the Sages came right after Midna spoke of being overthrown.

NoA also knows Japanese, and I trust their interpretation over Jumbie's unless it involves a mistranslation.

It is the Sages' folly that led to Ganondorf's imprisonment in the Twilight Realm - regardless of what you think that folly might be.