How does the SW work out on a CT-Placement?

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

However, as far as I can tell, there wasn't any hard evidence for Four Swords to come on the Adult Timeline either.

No offense, but FSA was intended to be the Imprisoning War, aka ALttP's backstory, meaning that it was meant to connect to ALttP long before Miyamoto came in.

If you believe the coast to be canon FSA has to happen on the AT. Why do people keep ignoring that?

Originally Posted by Oni Dark Link

If you believe the coast to be canon FSA has to happen on the AT.

That's not strictly true; but it does make a CT FSA a lot less likely since in TP Hyrule was depicted without a coast.

its called erosion man, its happening all over Louisiana's coast. plus i think i read that FSA's map might not be canon.

Originally Posted by troylh44

its called erosion man, its happening all over Louisiana's coast.

A mountain range - TP's Hyrule is surrounded by one - erodes into a coast?

plus i think i read that FSA's map might not be canon.

"That's not canon" is just fan speak for "it doesn't work with my timeline, so I'm going to ignore it."

Ugh, I'm the master on this issue of the FSA map having spent at least 3 months studying it. Let me take it from here.

There are two possibilities.

1. If FSA was originally the SW on the AT, then there is a loss of land from TMC to FSA and the FSA map retcons ALttP's map.

2. If FSA was originally the SW on the CT, then the FSA map is not Canon.

PS: Lexi I want a reply to my post.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

1. If FSA was originally the SW on the AT, then there is a loss of land from TMC to FSA and the FSA map retcons ALttP's map.

If FSA is part of the timeline there is a "loss of land" from TMC to FSA, using that logic. Besides, when you say "loss of land," you mean "there's a mountain range and forest to the north of Death Mountain that we see in FSA (climb Death Mountain and look in the distance) but it's not shown extensively on FSA's top-view map so I'm going to pretend it's not there in FSA."

2. If FSA was originally the SW on the CT, then the FSA map is not Canon.

If any one part of a game's design (besides Mario references, breaking the fourth wall, etc.) can be not canon by virtue of it not making sense, then there sure as heck isn't a timeline.

If FSA is part of the timeline there is a "loss of land" from TMC to FSA, using that logic. Besides, when you say "loss of land," you mean "there's a mountain range and forest to the north of Death Mountain that we see in FSA (climb Death Mountain and look in the distance) but it's not shown extensively on FSA's top-view map so I'm going to pretend it's not there in FSA."

...um no. I mean we see Mountains as far as the eye can see in TMC but not in FSA.

If any one part of a game's design (besides Mario references, breaking the fourth wall, etc.) can be not canon by virtue of it not making sense, then there sure as heck isn't a timeline.

What?

And I meant my other post conserning the MGW.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

...um no. I mean we see Mountains as far as the eye can see in TMC but not in FSA.

Go to the top of the Death Mountain level in FSA.
Tell me if you see ocean in the background.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The twilight curtain as seen per TP. There are two TCs in TP and FSA.

In TP there's the twilight curtain as seen by the people of Hyrule who only really see darkness and the TC which you yourself enter using the ToC.

In FSA The TC as seen by the people of Hyrule is most apearent in level 5. The one you'd enter with the ToC is the one you enter with the Moon pearl.

Saavy?

Okay, but Level 5 is not the MGW - those are parts of Hyrule that got covered by darkness, and there were in fact still portals to the MGW in the forest. How do you explain that if the MGW is the TC, and should just cover areas of Hyrule, not be a parallel mirrored dimension?

1. In LoZ his Maaki was the underworld.
2. The "Power" left behind in AoL only reffers to his essence doesn't it?

1) In LoZ the underworld was the place where Zelda hid the Triforce shards - unless she's an idiot, the underworld isn't Ganon's makai.

2) The makai is still in AoL regardless of what the "power left behind" is; it's where more monsters are coming from.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

That's never stated - it's just said that "now that Ganon has fallen" the Dark World will finally disappear,

And Ganon's "fall" moments ago was his death. Also, as I've said before, the Triforce says this before it ever says that Link will be the new master of the Triforce or anything.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

But it didn't vanish - so I have no reason to assume it vanished.

ALttP shows that the corrupted Sacred Realm will cease being the Dark World upon Ganon's death. Since the LoZ Makai existed after Ganon's death, it couldn't be the corrupted Sacred Realm. Also, even if it was, AoL Link reuniting and using the Triforce would arguably destroy it in the end.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I've never seen a real effort by you to explain it beyond saying "the makai isn't the Dark World, it's Ganon trying to spread darkness into Hyrule." It should be obvious by now that I think both can be true.

MikePetersSucks of Legends Alliance explained that, in the Japanese version of the game, it is implied that Ganon created the Dark World of FSA by spreading evil across the land with the Dark Mirror. By twisting the land with his power, Ganon is transforming it into a Makai. Because such a place could exist without needing to be the Sacred Realm, we have no reason to believe that the Dark World of FSA was the corrupted Sacred Realm. Also, if Ganon did stumble upon the Sacred Realm, he'd reasonably go after the Triforce ASAP instead of relying on the Trident.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The game does say that the Dark World's disappearance owes to Ganon's defeat, but it doesn't say why or how - it does say that the Dark World's appearance was due to Ganon's wish on the Triforce, and then encourages Link to make his own wish.

Yet it tells Link that the Dark World will fade before it ever tells him to make a wish.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

But, again, if the games are to be consistent, it seems unlikely that Ganon's death makes his Dark World disappear, because this isn't true in either AoL or OoX.

The Makais of AoL and OoX are likely not the Dark World of ALttP. If they were, they'd cease to exist after Ganon died or after Link reunited/claimed the Triforce in AoL/ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Again, the Dark World/makai exists in almost every Zelda game featuring Ganon (aside from TP), so I find it incredibly unlikely that the Sacred Realm was ever uncorrupted after OoT until Link's wish in ALttP.

A Makai is not required to be the Sacred Realm. A Makai is just a corrupted territory under the rule of a Maou.

Yet it tells Link that the Dark World will fade before it ever tells him to make a wish.

How about this: The triforce tells him that he now possesses it and can now make his own wish in the sentences immediately after it tells him the Dark World will fade.

It all depends on perspective.

Originally Posted by Double C

How about this: The triforce tells him that he now possesses it and can now make his own wish in the sentences immediately after it tells him the Dark World will fade.

However, due to the fact that the Triforce tells him all about Ganon and the Dark World fading before it mentions Link being the new master or making a wish, The Triforce is apparently implying that Link's wish isn't necessarily related to the Dark World fading away.

But by not saying "because of" they aren't necessarily saying it is.

Go to the top of the Death Mountain level in FSA.
Tell me if you see ocean in the background.

I see forests like in ALttP, but that's because we're looking DOWN! It's CONFIRMED by the birseye map of FSA that there's forest behind Death mountain, so your point is moot.

Okay, but Level 5 is not the MGW - those are parts of Hyrule that got covered by darkness, and there were in fact still portals to the MGW in the forest. How do you explain that if the MGW is the TC, and should just cover areas of Hyrule, not be a parallel mirrored dimension?

I already told you. The darkness seen in level 5 is what the regular people of Hyrule would experience. The MGW is what we enter by using the makeshift ToC, aka the moonpearl.

1) In LoZ the underworld was the place where Zelda hid the Triforce shards - unless she's an idiot, the underworld isn't Ganon's makai.

2) The makai is still in AoL regardless of what the "power left behind" is; it's where more monsters are coming from.

1. Quote?

2. Ah. I'll argue on this point a bit more, once I have the quote about the underworld.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I see forests like in ALttP, but that's because we're looking DOWN! It's CONFIRMED by the birseye map of FSA that there's forest behind Death mountain, so your point is moot.

No, you see - the birdseye map shows nothing behind Death Mountain. Probably because it's only a top-view of the in-game locales, and Death Mountain is at the very topmost edge of the screen, so showing anything beyond it would be pointless - but still.

I already told you. The darkness seen in level 5 is what the regular people of Hyrule would experience. The MGW is what we enter by using the makeshift ToC, aka the moonpearl.

The people of Hyrule know something's up in TP, though - they just don't realize they've transformed into spirit-like wisps. And, again, the people of Hyrule know about the Moon Gates - it's just that someone attuned to the Moon Pearl (the Hero) is the only one who can find them.

1. Quote?

It's pretty obvious even without a quote; Zelda was said to have divided the Triforce of Wisdom and hidden it, and it's hidden in the Underworld labyrinths.

http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/...nual-17-18.jpg

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Also, as I've said before, the Triforce says this before it ever says that Link will be the new master of the Triforce or anything.

The Triforce says this and then offers itself to Link. To me it's pretty obvious that the Triforce must be responsible for getting rid of the world of darkness.

MikePetersSucks of Legends Alliance explained that, in the Japanese version of the game, it is implied that Ganon created the Dark World of FSA by spreading evil across the land with the Dark Mirror. Because such a place could exist without needing to be the Sacred Realm, we have no reason to believe that the Dark World of FSA was the corrupted Sacred Realm.

I'm sorry, but where was this implied, and by whom? From what I can tell, only the Lost Woods and Frozen Hyrule have truly been consumed by evil - Dampe says that the monsters want to turn Hyrule "into the Dark World, too." (That is, into the "闇の世界" world of darkness, the same term used for the Dark World in ALttP.) And the Dark World is still referred to as the place where the Knights were "dumped" after being felled, distinguishing it from Hyrule.

Looking at the translated texts, the only mentions of the Dark Mirror I see are in reference to its place in the forest, the dark tribe of long ago, or Shadow Link, never to the Dark World. I don't know where MPS is getting that there's any sort of implication of a connection between the two.

Also, even if it was, AoL Link reuniting and using the Triforce would arguably destroy it in the end.

Why? His wish was to awaken the Sleeping Princess, as far as we know.

Also, if Ganon did stumble upon the Sacred Realm, he'd reasonably go after the Triforce ASAP instead of relying on the Trident.

I think it highly unlikely that the Triforce was even in the Sacred Realm at the time of FSA, given that on either timeline the Triforce has already left the Sacred Realm and we have no indication anywhere that it ever returned there.

The Makais of AoL and OoX are likely not the Dark World of ALttP. If they were, they'd cease to exist after Ganon died or after Link reunited/claimed the Triforce in AoL/ALttP.

But they don't - which again is why I think "it can't be the Dark World because Ganon dying would make it disappear" is an incorrect view.

A Makai is not required to be the Sacred Realm. A Makai is just a corrupted territory under the rule of a Maou.

Yes, but given a lack of any further definition as to where the makai of other games is, and the fact that FSA repeated the "shadowy mirrored world" depiction seen in ALttP, I see no reason to distinguish the makais of any other game without a definite alternative.

I think Erimgard's article on the similarities and differences of 'Makais' throughout the series is a good guide. Obviously as with any article, however well thought out, there will be personal interpretation- but it gives good logic as a basis and the natures of the 'underworld' 'yami no sekai' 'makai' 'dark world' 'dark realm' 'sacred realm' 'twilight realm' etc.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The Triforce says this and then offers itself to Link. To me it's pretty obvious that the Triforce must be responsible for getting rid of the world of darkness.

The Triforce treats Link's obtainment of it as a different subject. Its phrase "The Triforce is waiting for a new owner" almost seems to be transitioning away from the Ganon issue.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I'm sorry, but where was this implied, and by whom?

I sent another message to MPS, but I'll only get a reply tomorrow, since it's the middle of the night where he is. If you still have an issue with this after I get the next reply it'd be best if you spoke to MPS yourself, since I don't want to relay messages between you two for days.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

From what I can tell, only the Lost Woods and Frozen Hyrule have truly been consumed by evil - Dampe says that the monsters want to turn Hyrule "into the Dark World, too." (That is, into the "闇の世界" world of darkness, the same term used for the Dark World in ALttP.) And the Dark World is still referred to as the place where the Knights were "dumped" after being felled, distinguishing it from Hyrule.

As I've explained before, the Dark World in FSA is a part of Hyrule that Ganon's power has greatly corrupted. The Moon Gate World, the Dark World, all of those worlds in FSA were due to Ganon's evil power.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Looking at the translated texts, the only mentions of the Dark Mirror I see are in reference to its place in the forest, the dark tribe of long ago, or Shadow Link, never to the Dark World. I don't know where MPS is getting that there's any sort of implication of a connection between the two.

MPS won't reply to my message until tomorrow, but judging from other members the general idea seems to be that Ganon obtained the mirror and began commanding it, which is also why he gained an army of Shadow Links.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Why? His wish was to awaken the Sleeping Princess, as far as we know.

And, as far as we know, ALttP Link's wish was to resurrect everyone that died during or just before his journey. Regardless, we know that the Dark World faded after that, whether due to Ganon's death or the Sacred Realm changing to mirror the heart of the one who wished on the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I think it highly unlikely that the Triforce was even in the Sacred Realm at the time of FSA, given that on either timeline the Triforce has already left the Sacred Realm and we have no indication anywhere that it ever returned there.

Then where is it, and why is it back there for ALttP? Also, I doubt that it was in Hyrule Castle during FSA, since nobody tries to use it.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

But they don't - which again is why I think "it can't be the Dark World because Ganon dying would make it disappear" is an incorrect view.

We are blatantly told by the Triforce itself that Ganon's death apparently destroys the Dark World, with the alternative being that a Triforce wish by a good person will destroy it. Since Ganon is dead when OoX begins and since somebody good had to have wished on the Triforce for it to be in Hyrule Castle, the Dark World of ALttP would have ceased to exist on two fronts.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Yes, but given a lack of any further definition as to where the makai of other games is, and the fact that FSA repeated the "shadowy mirrored world" depiction seen in ALttP, I see no reason to distinguish the makais of any other game without a definite alternative.

If you need more of a reason to begin distinguishing Makais, the Makai of OoX couldn't be the ALttP Dark World, since Ganon was dead and a good person had apparently wished on the Triforce at that point since the Triforce is in Hyrule Castle.

You guys should read the thread about the TP, ALTTP, MC, and OOT backstories all referring to the same event. I'm not sure if i believe it but it's an interseting theory nonetheless

No, you see - the birdseye map shows nothing behind Death Mountain. Probably because it's only a top-view of the in-game locales, and Death Mountain is at the very topmost edge of the screen, so showing anything beyond it would be pointless - but still.

Uh huh. I'm SURE there's no land behind death mountain.

Yes, but given a lack of any further definition as to where the makai of other games is, and the fact that FSA repeated the "shadowy mirrored world" depiction seen in ALttP, I see no reason to distinguish the makais of any other game without a definite alternative.

This shadowy mirror world which isn't supposed to exist yet, mind you.

Let's face it Lexi, I have something against you which is an incontrivertable point. Give it up.

Remember there was a sea between death mountain area and the North AoL map anway... a very thin sea that looks more like a river, but scle wise and geomorphically a sea separates death mountain from North Hyrule since the game was released, there being water behind it before more land, so there shouldn't be land behind it on FSA either if thart's what's being claimed.

^Your logic is baised as you place LoZ/AoL directly after FSA.