How does the SW work out on a CT-Placement?

That "we don't see every portal from FSA in ALttP" is about as weird to me as the fact that "we don't see every temple from OoT in TP."

But in FA we enter some of the same temples we do in ALttP, whereas in TP we only enter SOME temples from OoT.

I can't access any text dumps at all; all the sites that host them are blocked. I'll do it when I get home.

Ugh, I'll do it. Where exactly DO you work where they allow you to go on the computer exactly?

It's the Dark World (ALttP) accessed through portals (ALttP - they even use the same SFX) and a mirror of the Light world (ALttP).

...I'm confused.

It's not a question I can really answer - you're right, Ganon doesn't seem to have made his ALttP wish prior to FSA. But it remains true that the mirrored Hyrule world still appears in FSA regardless of whether it makes sense.

There we go then. I've found irreversable evidence. The MGW CAN NOT be the DW from ALttP.

Now the TC on the other hand...

On the matter of that text dump:

Originally Posted by Ball type thing

This world is like the real
world, but evil has twisted it.
The Golden Power is what
changed your shape to reflect

It says that in the english, and the Jap contradicted it, hense I'm certain that it's the SR, not the Triforce.

Give it up Lexxi-I win.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

What about the Dark World of FSA, though? Most theories place it before ALttP, yet according to your theory the Imprisoning War happened after FSA, so where did its Dark World come from?

I've already told you about this in the Private Messages. The Dark World from A Link to the Past was not present in Four Swords Adventures. Ganon was merely spreading his evil over Hyrule in an attempt to corrupt it. I've consulted the posters on Legends Alliance about this before.

For Pinecove's convenience, here are the quotes from Zelda Legends.

Originally Posted by Ball Guy (Japanese Version)

Wheee! Roll roll...
Hm, you turned into a rabbit, I see...
That's right, this world and the world where we live have very similar geography, but they're a weeee bit different.
On top of that, while they're lost here, people change into a form that reflects their heart.
I change my mind a lot, so I became like a ball...
But, if you have a sphere called the Moon Pearl, I hear you can return to your original form... roll roll roll

Originally Posted by Sahasrahla (Japanese Version)

Link, it is I, Sahasralah.
In this tower, a sphere called the Moon Pearl is placed.

The one who holds that orb, it protects so that his form will not change, even in the monsters' world.

You should make sure to acquire it before you leave the tower.
Do not forget...

Originally Posted by Old Man on Death Mountain (Japanese Version)

The Moon Pearl is a charm of the Hero who proceeds to the sacred land. It protects from the magical power that changes a person's form.

You, who have obtained it, surely are the Hero I have been waiting for.
Please save the maidens!

Originally Posted by Tree Man Near Palace of Darkness (Japanese Version)

My, a new face.
I suppose you too came to this world seeking the "Golden Power"?

But you know, the "Golden Power" was a power that only the one who first touched it can use.

That man wished to create this world... this world is a world that reflected that man's heart.

I, too, came here, blinded by greed, but all such people became monsters.

To restore this world to the sacred land it originally was, there's probably no way except for a person who is worthy to overthrow that man and claim the "Golden Power" to take it...
I plan on waiting in this form until that happens.

But, the previous residents sure left a mischievous thing behind. The "Golden Power"...

the "Triforce"...

The emphasis on phrases such as "Monsters' world," and the like indicate that it is the nature of the Dark World to transform people, not a deliberate act of the Triforce.

I argue we don't enter any of the same temples in FSA that we do in aLttP.

Every place has a different name, even the eastern temple is the eastern palace.

I know it's splitting hairs, but when such a big teatabling took place it seems erroneous not to give it big consequences. There must be a reason why every linguistic link between aLttP and FSA was removed in all languages.

@AG: Awesome.

By the by, what do you believe the MGW to be?

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

I've already told you about this in the Private Messages. The Dark World from A Link to the Past was not present in Four Swords Adventures. Ganon was merely spreading his evil over Hyrule in an attempt to corrupt it. I've consulted the posters on Legends Alliance about this before.

Posters on Legends Alliance =/= official canon. What they say is not absolute fact, and can be contested.

As I've said before, it's definitely true that Ganon was spreading evil over Hyrule - but we saw this manifested in areas like the Lost Woods and Frozen Hyrule, which were themselves transformed by evil power, but never as an explanation for the portals to the Dark World.

Originally Posted by AG

The emphasis on phrases such as "Monsters' world," and the like indicate that it is the nature of the Dark World to transform people, not a deliberate act of the Triforce.

I found the Moon Pearl!
It protects the Hero from the Golden Power that the evil one uses, and won't let his form change.

The description of the Moon Pearl indicates that the changing of forms is a result of the "Golden Power that the evil one uses." This probably explains why NoA's translation makes specific reference to the Triforce/Golden Power in most cases where we hear about the transforming powers of the Dark World.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

But in FA we enter some of the same temples we do in ALttP, whereas in TP we only enter SOME temples from OoT.

We enter literally every temple in ALttP's Light World in FSA, and then some.

Where exactly DO you work where they allow you to go on the computer exactly?

A job search center where we work with people who need help using computers (creating email accounts, submitting/creating resumes, etc.). When no one needs help, we're allowed to peruse the computers for our own purposes as long as there's not a waiting list to get on them.

...I'm confused.

It's got the same designation as ALttP (Dark World), is accessed in the same way as ALttP (all the way down to the portals' sound effects), and is a mirrored reflection of Hyrule just like ALttP (and the only other time such a world is shown). That's three-for-three; given all the other references to ALttP, and looking at it through an objective lens (rather than the "the OoT seal exists until ALttP" view I've held until recently) I'd be amazed if it wasn't supposed to be the same thing.

There we go then. I've found irreversable evidence. The MGW CAN NOT be the DW from ALttP.

I don't think you understand; I was saying "one inconsistency doesn't affect whether or not the FSA Dark World is a version of ALttP's Dark World."

The sacred realm prior to Ganon's invasion was a golden land of light and awe, nothing to do with shadow at all.

The sacred realm after Ganon made his wish was an evil version of Hyrule.

If FSA Dark World is after his wish to explain how it's all shadowy and suchlike (ignoring how very different a version of tainted Hyrule it appears) then Ganon would have already achieved the Triforce in FSA thus presumably not require the Trident to transform and gain power- why go for the trident if you already hold ultimate power?

If FSA Dark World is pre-wish it should have no darkness at all but be a golden land of happy sunshine laughter.

You are suggesting between the two there is some kind of midpoint that is pre-emptive of Ganon's attack on the SR. It's fanfic and doesn't make sense with in-game conventions.

Not really. I'm suggesting the Dark World of FSA originates in OoT. (It's called "World of Darkness" just like ALttP's in the Japanese text.)

A job search center where we work with people who need help using computers (creating email accounts, submitting/creating resumes, etc.). When no one needs help, we're allowed to peruse the computers for our own purposes as long as there's not a waiting list to get on them.

Nice.

The description of the Moon Pearl indicates that the changing of forms is a result of the "Golden Power that the evil one uses." This probably explains why NoA's translation makes specific reference to the Triforce/Golden Power in most cases where we hear about the transforming powers of the Dark World.

Source?

I don't think you understand; I was saying "one inconsistency doesn't affect whether or not the FSA Dark World is a version of ALttP's Dark World."

Of coarse it does! Half your points have been proven to be moot, and on top of that, you have two major inconsistancies.

Not really. I'm suggesting the Dark World of FSA originates in OoT.

...You don't believe the darkness which Ganon spread across the SR in OoT disapears in TWW?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Posters on Legends Alliance =/= official canon. What they say is not absolute fact, and can be contested.

The posters on Legends Alliance are very familiar with Japanese culture and how things such as Makais work (heck, MikePetersSucks is a Japanese person who lives in Japan). They've explained to me how the Dark World was not present in FSA.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

As I've said before, it's definitely true that Ganon was spreading evil over Hyrule - but we saw this manifested in areas like the Lost Woods and Frozen Hyrule, which were themselves transformed by evil power, but never as an explanation for the portals to the Dark World.

As I said before, all of it was Ganon's doing through his dark magic. The Dark World was not present in FSA.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The description of the Moon Pearl indicates that the changing of forms is a result of the "Golden Power that the evil one uses."

This statement of Sahasrahla:

Originally Posted by Sahasrahla (Japanese Translation)

Link, it is I, Sahasralah.
In this tower, a sphere called the Moon Pearl is placed.

The one who holds that orb, it protects so that his form will not change, even in the monsters' world.

You should make sure to acquire it before you leave the tower.
Do not forget...

Suggests that the Moon Pearl was an item meant to prevent someone from transforming in general; note how he says even in the monsters' world instead of just in the monsters' world. He also connects the transformation to the world itself.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I'm suggesting the Dark World of FSA originates in OoT.

There's a problem with that. In ALttP's ending, the Triforce states that the Dark World will fade away because Ganon is dead. If the FSA Dark World is the ALttP Dark World and it was somehow created in OoT, it would be destroyed when Ganon died in TWW.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Source?

Originally Posted by When you get the Moon Pearl

I found the Moon Pearl!
It protects the Hero from the Golden Power that the evil one uses, and won't let his form change.

Of coarse it does!

What do YOU think the MGW is?

...You don't believe the darkness which Ganon spread across the SR in OoT disapears in TWW?

No. His makai still existed after his defeat in LoZ, and only in ALttP is it even implied that the Sacred Realm will be cleansed.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

The posters on Legends Alliance are very familiar with Japanese culture and how things such as Makais work (heck, MikePetersSucks is a Japanese person who lives in Japan). They've explained to me how the Dark World was not present in FSA.

I find it difficult to believe that they could explain how the fact that the Dark World is called a "makai" in FSA means it can't be the same one from OoT/TWW/ALttP (especially since in OoT and TWW it is called a makai also).

Suggests that the Moon Pearl was an item meant to prevent someone from transforming in general;

Which is definitely why those strange enemies can still turn you into that form, amirite?

There's a problem with that. In ALttP's ending, the Triforce states that the Dark World will fade away because Ganon is dead. If the FSA Dark World is the ALttP Dark World and it was somehow created in OoT, it would be destroyed when Ganon died in TWW.

In AoL, it is stated that new minions are being summoned from the makai, even though Ganon is dead. That's one of the reasons my timeline has the order it does - this makai is born in OoT and exists all the way to ALttP.

What do YOU think the MGW is?

The twilight curtain as seen per TP. There are two TCs in TP and FSA.

In TP there's the twilight curtain as seen by the people of Hyrule who only really see darkness and the TC which you yourself enter using the ToC.

In FSA The TC as seen by the people of Hyrule is most apearent in level 5. The one you'd enter with the ToC is the one you enter with the Moon pearl.

Saavy?

No. His makai still existed after his defeat in LoZ, and only in ALttP is it even implied that the Sacred Realm will be cleansed.

1. In LoZ his Maaki was the underworld.
2. The "Power" left behind in AoL only reffers to his essence doesn't it?

I found the Moon Pearl!
It protects the Hero from the Golden Power that the evil one uses, and won't let his form change.

Fair enough, I'll let you off the hook for the animal thing.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

No. His makai still existed after his defeat in LoZ, and only in ALttP is it even implied that the Sacred Realm will be cleansed.

Yet the thing in ALttP that cleanses the Sacred Realm is Ganon's death. The ALttP Dark World couldn't have been created in OoT since it would have ceased to exist after TWW. In LoZ Ganon's Makai couldn't have been the Dark World; if it was, it would have vanished with his death.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I find it difficult to believe that they could explain how the fact that the Dark World is called a "makai" in FSA means it can't be the same one from OoT/TWW/ALttP

It wasn't as simple as that.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Which is definitely why those strange enemies can still turn you into that form, amirite?

They're a gameplay mechanic that only lasts for a few seconds. Those things make no sense in general, since Ganon would presumably expect people to be in a transformed state while in the Dark World anyway.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

In AoL, it is stated that new minions are being summoned from the makai, even though Ganon is dead.

Yet in ALttP the Triforce itself says that Ganon's Makai will vanish because he is dead. Thus the Makai in LoZ and AoL can't be the Dark World.

Yet the thing in ALttP that cleanses the Sacred Realm is Ganon's death. The ALttP Dark World couldn't have been created in OoT since it would have ceased to exist after TWW. In LoZ Ganon's Makai couldn't have been the Dark World; if it was, it would have vanished with his death.

Didn't the wish upon the Triforce cleanse the SR though similarily to TMC where Vaati dies but the hat is still needed to recover the castle?

Also Lexi doesn't believe the corruption of the SR in OoT is the one in ALttP.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Didn't the wish upon the Triforce cleanse the SR though similarily to TMC where Vaati dies but the hat is still needed to recover the castle?

Link's wish probably helped, but the Triforce tells Link that Ganon's Makai will fade due to Ganon's death before it says anything about Link wishing on it.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Also Lexi doesn't believe the corruption of the SR in OoT is the one in ALttP.

So he thinks that Ganon corrupted the Sacred Realm then corrupted his corruption in ALttP?

So he thinks that Ganon corrupted the Sacred Realm then corrupted his corruption in ALttP?

He believes the SR was covered in darkness in OoT and then was corrupted to become a mirror of Hyrule in ALttP more or less.

I'm of the same opinion, except I believe that the darkness from OoT vanished after TWW when the Triforce was wished on and Ganondorf was killed.

I don't really understand the issue here. FSA and AlttP go on the same timeline irregardless, and their dark worlds can relate or not relate to TP whether they are on the same timeline or not.

I think the meat of the issue here is FSA was flagged for a CT game at one point because of Impossible's say so, and it ended up not being a CT game because of Myamoto's say so. So therefore there is no CT IW, so therefore AlttP cannot go on that timeline, so why the crap are we talking about mirrors anyway?

I think it's HIlarious that so many people are jumping on the CT timeline because of a 86'd map of FSA, when so many of those are the same people that insisted that TMC was supposed to be first and then it changed.l

Originally Posted by quick silver

I think the meat of the issue here is FSA was flagged for a CT game at one point because of Impossible's say so, and it ended up not being a CT game because of Myamoto's say so.

Miyamoto only said that he thought FSA's initial story got in the way of the gameplay. There's no proof that he made it impossible for FSA to go on the Child Timeline.

You are correct about that, AG. My point, as always, is that FSA would have MOVED the four swords games from their ORIGINAL location, from one timeline that then existed and was established to a new timeline that FSA would have developed.

Making AT the old timeline with all the classic games, and CT the new timeline for new ideas.

I think the thinking for the other side is that when FSA was flagged as a CT game, that means that AlttP was already a CT game, but there's no evidence that FSA and AlttP were meant to connect before the tipping of the tea table.

What could have been a confirmation as to the placement of the classic games is failed voodoo as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but it's very far from proven or confirmed.

Originally Posted by quick silver

My point, as always, is that FSA would have MOVED the four swords games from their ORIGINAL location, from one timeline that then existed and was established to a new timeline that FSA would have developed.

However, as far as I can tell, there wasn't any hard evidence for Four Swords to come on the Adult Timeline either.

Originally Posted by quick silver

I think the thinking for the other side is that when FSA was flagged as a CT game, that means that AlttP was already a CT game, but there's no evidence that FSA and AlttP were meant to connect before the tipping of the tea table.

No offense, but FSA was intended to be the Imprisoning War, aka ALttP's backstory, meaning that it was meant to connect to ALttP long before Miyamoto came in.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Yet the thing in ALttP that cleanses the Sacred Realm is Ganon's death.

That's never stated - it's just said that "now that Ganon has fallen" the Dark World will finally disappear, but I think it's clear that's only in conjunction with the fact that Ganon falling makes Link the master of the Triforce and poises him to undo Ganon's evils.

The ALttP Dark World couldn't have been created in OoT since it would have ceased to exist after TWW. In LoZ Ganon's Makai couldn't have been the Dark World; if it was, it would have vanished with his death.

But it didn't vanish - so I have no reason to assume it vanished.

It wasn't as simple as that.

I've never seen a real effort by you to explain it beyond saying "the makai isn't the Dark World, it's Ganon trying to spread darkness into Hyrule." It should be obvious by now that I think both can be true.

Yet in ALttP the Triforce itself says that Ganon's Makai will vanish because he is dead. Thus the Makai in LoZ and AoL can't be the Dark World.

The game does say that the Dark World's disappearance owes to Ganon's defeat, but it doesn't say why or how - it does say that the Dark World's appearance was due to Ganon's wish on the Triforce, and then encourages Link to make his own wish.

But, again, if the games are to be consistent, it seems unlikely that Ganon's death makes his Dark World disappear, because this isn't true in either AoL or OoX.

So he thinks that Ganon corrupted the Sacred Realm then corrupted his corruption in ALttP?

Again, the Dark World/makai exists in almost every Zelda game featuring Ganon (aside from TP), so I find it incredibly unlikely that the Sacred Realm was ever uncorrupted after OoT until Link's wish in ALttP.