How does the SW work out on a CT-Placement?

Lex, since you appear to be so pointlessly adamant about having this discussion for the hundredth time, I'll PM you a reply for the sake of LOZ Historian's thread.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

I personally don't think that LoZ/AoL would come before ALttP on the Child Timeline. I probably could have written my initial statement better, as I partially thought that Lex was trying to push one of his Adult Timeline placements again.

What about the Dark World of FSA, though? ;D Most theories place it before ALttP, yet according to your theory the Imprisoning War happened after FSA, so where did its Dark World come from?

The 2 most hotly debated places for the SW is either OOT Adult Portion or an event between FSA and ALttP, from what I gather. My question to the CT followers is why is it that they follow FSA Beta/Removed content? It's as if I started placing any game with a full Triforce after OOT, just because it shows him obtaining it in the beta screens.

Thank you! That's why I don't even link aLttP and FSA. People use the beta to claim canonicity when surely it does the opposite.

My conclusion is that either we haven't yet seen the SW or that it really is the culmination of a bunch of other wars merged together in history in some literal legend type theory. The purist in me likes to think the firmer and that some day we will get an actual canon showing of it.

Originally Posted by Oni-TLink

The 2 most hotly debated places for the SW is either OOT Adult Portion or an event between FSA and ALttP, from what I gather. My question to the CT followers is why is it that they follow FSA Beta/Removed content? It's as if I started placing any game with a full Triforce after OOT, just because it shows him obtaining it in the beta screens.

A person could probably also say the same thing about OOX, since OOX was essentially robbed of the elements that would have allowed it to be real canon. I think the fuzzy reasoning regarding games like FSA is just a side effect of theorists wanting to force every game into a continuity when there is not really enough evidence to put them all together. Not forcing them together wouldn't be nearly as much fun, even though forcing them results in something that simply isn't true.

Also, Artem, I think the Dark Realm of FSA is the prototype Twilight Realm. It has more of the properties of twilight than it does the Sacred Realm/Dark World

Originally Posted by River Zora

Also, Artem, I think the Dark Realm of FSA is the prototype Twilight Realm. It has more of the properties of twilight than it does the Sacred Realm/Dark World

What properties?

SR/DW properties:
Literally mirrors Hyrule (check)
Accessed through portals (check, with identical SFX to ALttP)
Reacts to Moon Pearls (check)
Can interact directly with Light World (check)

TW properties:
Void-like dimension (nope)
Accessed through a magical mirror (nope)
Inhabited by Twili (nope)
Only connected to Light world through Mirror (nope)

I don't really think the TW is close enough. I do think the idea of spreading darkness to transform the land is seen in its most direct form in the spread of Twilight - but that still involves Zant, whereas FSA involves only Ganon and Vaati, and no descendant of the Shadow Clan.

Ok, the link between the TR and the DR of FSA are significantly stronger than the links between FSA DR and aLttP's DW.

I can't be bothered to retype it put so wonderfully by Erimgard, so I'll link his article regarding the Dark Worlds:

http://digg.com/nintendo/A_New_Persp...the_Dark_Realm

Also I've seen posts by you claiming the mirror in FSA to be the same mirror of TP, so that would link the two realms also.

FSA
State of the Triforce beginning: Not in game
State of the Triforce end: Not in game

In the end, it MAY be held in Hyrule castle.

Originally Posted by Som

The Triforce in LttP is actually completely full from beginning to end.

That is of coarse if S&D is not Canon...

Originally Posted by LoZH

FS/FSA[Second half SW skewed]-(OoX)-ALttP

Why is OoX between FSA and ALttP? That's impossible.

TP-LoZ/AoL-

This is also not fact. It's possible that LoZ/AoL comes after ALttP (*audible gasp I actually said that) on the Child timeline.

Originally Posted by Lex

What about the Dark World of FSA, though? ;D Most theories place it before ALttP, yet according to your theory the Imprisoning War happened after FSA, so where did its Dark World come from?

Are you saying the DWs of FSA and ALttP are the same then? It's not fact as to what the MGw in FSA is.

Originally Posted by Oni T Link

My question to the CT followers is why is it that they follow FSA Beta/Removed content? It's as if I started placing any game with a full Triforce after OOT, just because it shows him obtaining it in the beta screens.

They don't. They simply use beta screens to prove that when (and we must remember IF) FSA was on the CT (which it still may be) it was shown on an island, hense proving to us that FSAs map can't be considered Canon IF FSA while the SW in beta stages was on the CT. If it wa on the AT in beta stages however, there's no question.

In all honesty, it don't matter to me because I can go from an aproach that there's a loss of land, or that the land never grew in the first place.

MY views on the SW are as follow.

If ALttP occurs on the AT, then the SW starts out in the great war (consisting of the prolounged wars, the feirce wars, etc) which tells of the creation of the SR, the bloodshed amongst the people for the Triforce, and the building of the ToT/the sealing of the SR. OoT ends these tales by telling of the sealing of Ganon and the murder of the knights. In TWW, Ganon escapes the seal without breaking it, and after FSA, Ganon escapes the seal of the FS, wanders into the SR, and can't find a way to return (as stated in ingame texts) because the seal is still in place.

If ALttP occurs on the CT, then the SW starts out in the great war (consisting of the prolounged wars, the feirce wars, etc) which tells of the creation of the SR, the bloodshed amongst the people for the Triforce, and the building of the ToT/the sealing of the SR. These tales go into legend, and after FSA Ganon breaks free of the seal on the FS, and gets sealed into the SR which sets up ALttP.

In my opinion the second story requires a bit of fan fiction.

Now that I've explained my veiws, may someone enlighten me by telling me where exactly the topic is going debate wise?

Originally Posted by River Zora

http://digg.com/nintendo/A_New_Persp...the_Dark_Realm

Ah, Erimgard's article. I used to agree with him, you know

The methods of entering and exiting these two Dark Worlds are very different. Unlike the Dark World of A Link to the Past, the one of Four Swords Adventures is entered by use of Moon Gates. The Dark World of Four Swords Adventures can be exited with relative ease, also unlike A Link to the Past's Dark World. The Magic Mirror that lets you exit A Link to the Past's Dark World is absent from Four Swords Adventures.

1) The first discrepancy can be overlooked if one simply considers that the portals in ALttP themselves could be classified as "Moon Gates."

2) The second discrepancy can also be overlooked if you consider that the original Sages' Seal was broken in TWW's backstory (thus, there would be no reason why exiting the Dark World would be a challenge at all) - this may have been why the Magic Mirror was ultimately removed.

Though not removed, the Moon Pearl of A Link to the Past was similarily varied in Four Swords Adventures. Originally there was only one obtainable Moon Pearl, and as stated earlier, its purpose was to protect its holder from the transforming qualities of the Dark World caused by the Triforce. In Four Swords Adventures, there are many Moon Pearls, and their purpose is entirely different. With the Dark World now lacking its transformation powers [with no explanation given as to why] the Moon Pearls open up Moon Gates.

In ALttP, as already stated, the portals were already opened, so why would you need a Moon Pearl to open them? The Moon Pearl serves a different purpse in FSA because of the gameplay structure of that game, but from a story perspective we can still say that it pierces through the power of the Dark World - just in a different way.

As for why Link doesn't transform; the transformation can be said to be a property the Dark World gains after Ganon makes his wish on the Triforce, and thus one it would not necessarily have in FSA when he does not have the Triforce.

Also I've seen posts by you claiming the mirror in FSA to be the same mirror of TP, so that would link the two realms also.

Not necessarily, since the world in FSA is never said to have anything to do with the Mirror - it's just the item Ganon uses to summon his army of Shadow Links.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Are you saying the DWs of FSA and ALttP are the same then? It's not fact as to what the MGw in FSA is.

They both have the same name in the English text (and that doesn't happen often) and are the only two instances of a "mirror Hyrule" world in the series.

I used to agree with him, you know

So...you don't belive the SR was once part of Hyrule?

They both have the same name in the English text (and that doesn't happen often) and are the only two instances of a "mirror Hyrule" world in the series.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...ss-in-fsa.html

You may want to take a look at that.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

So...you don't belive the SR was once part of Hyrule?

I'm on the fence.

Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are often associated or referred to as the same thing, but that could be because:

1) The Sacred Realm used to be part of Hyrule
2) Rather than saying "the Triforce rests in the Sacred Realm, the entrance to which is somewhere in Hyrule," the legends got reduced to "the Triforce can be found somewhere in Hyrule."

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...ss-in-fsa.html

You may want to take a look at that.

Oh my, FSA's Dark World doesn't require you to use the Magic Mirror to exit it. Probably because in FSA it isn't sealed away - you didn't need the Magic Mirror to exit in OoT before the seal was fully cast, either, mind you.

The Moon Pearls open portals instead of protecting you from the magic of the Dark World. I don't see what's wrong with this, either - the portals we see in ALttP had to have been opened at some point, why not FSA?

And it doesn't transform you. That's probably because the transformative power is credited to the Triforce, which Ganon didn't gain a wish on until ALttP.

1) The Sacred Realm used to be part of Hyrule
2) Rather than saying "the Triforce rests in the Sacred Realm, the entrance to which is somewhere in Hyrule," the legends got reduced to "the Triforce can be found somewhere in Hyrule."

1. That's what I believe...
2. Perhaps.

The Moon Pearls open portals instead of protecting you from the magic of the Dark World. I don't see what's wrong with this, either - the portals we see in ALttP had to have been opened at some point, why not FSA?

There are only 9 portals in ALttP. You must open maybe 500 in FSA.

And it doesn't transform you. That's probably because the transformative power is credited to the Triforce, which Ganon didn't gain a wish on until ALttP.

No, I believe it's because of the SR, not the Triforce.

And you're forgetting that in ALttP the SR, is said to be long forgotten, whereas in FSA it's common knowledge.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

1. That's what I believe...
2. Perhaps.

Well, 2 is actually true, 1 is just what happens if you think 2 was literally true.

There are only 9 portals in ALttP. You must open maybe 500 in FSA.

FSA is also a much bigger game than ALttP. That swamp area we see in FSA didn't exist in ALttP, either. ;P Neither did the pyramid, the Gerudo village, etc.

No, I believe it's because of the SR, not the Triforce.

And you're forgetting that in ALttP the SR, is said to be long forgotten, whereas in FSA it's common knowledge.

1) The game says it's because of the Triforce's power. I can find a quote if you'd like.

2) Generations pass between FSA and ALttP, so I don't see how this is a problem. ;D

Well, 2 is actually true, 1 is just what happens if you think 2 was literally true.

How so?

FSA is also a much bigger game than ALttP. That swamp area we see in FSA didn't exist in ALttP, either. ;P Neither did the pyramid, the Gerudo village, etc.

The swamp is the swamp ruins in ALttP, the Gerudo go extince, and you're evading the question.

1) The game says it's because of the Triforce's power. I can find a quote if you'd like.

Japanese if you please.

2) Generations pass between FSA and ALttP, so I don't see how this is a problem. ;D

How many?

And also: You say in FSA that the MGW is parallel to Hyrule correct? This is impossible because the DW Did not become a mirror image of Hyrule untill right before ALttP. (Jeez I feel like Peoniz wright here). Also to note is, the fact that TP's Twilight curtain is parallel to Hyrule aswell.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

How so?

Hyrule is not literally the land where the Triforce sleeps, but games like TWW and TP refer to it as such. It is actually in the Sacred Realm, but most of the legends completely ignore the Sacred Realm.

The swamp is the swamp ruins in ALttP, the Gerudo go extince, and you're evading the question.

I don't see any swamp ruins in FSA's swamp.

The point is, just because we see something in one game and not in another doesn't mean it's not there - just that it wasn't included.

I would make an exception to this rule, though - if we see something that's different in one game than in another (like FSA's ruin-less swamp) because a certain element is omitted, then it's probably not there.

Japanese if you please.

I'll VM it to you when I get off work (ZL is blocked on these computers).

How many?

Enough for the maidens to lose most of their magical powers according to ALttP.

And also: You say in FSA that the MGW is parallel to Hyrule correct? This is impossible because the DW Did not become a mirror image of Hyrule untill right before ALttP. (Jeez I feel like Peoniz wright here). Also to note is, the fact that TP's Twilight curtain is parallel to Hyrule aswell.

Touche, but it's still a credit to ALttP's favor, and not against it.

The Twilight Curtain is the same as Hyrule, but it also actually engulfs Hyrule, whereas FSA's Dark World is another world entirely that just looks like Hyrule. We see Curtain-like examples of the effects of darkness on Hyrule in FSA (the Lost Woods, Frozen Hyrule), but the actual Dark World is still an alterante mirror world accessed through portals.

The Sacred Realm is never mentioned in FSA.

There is no mention to any of the key features of aLttP. Everything was changed in the teatabling.

Originally Posted by River Zora

The Sacred Realm is never mentioned in FSA.

There is no mention to any of the key features of aLttP. Everything was changed in the teatabling.

I'll put it this way - TP behaves in rather the same manner. (The Sacred Grove, for example, is never called the "Lost Woods.") There seems to have been a concerted effort to make only half references to other titles in recent releases - it may look, sound, or seem the same, but it's not QUITE identical.

Either way, it's still called the Dark/Demon World in FSA, and that's exactly what it's called in OoT (and in English, the same as it's called in ALttP), so I see fit to conclude it is the same world spoken of in those games, even if there's no specific statement that this is the case.

Hyrule is not literally the land where the Triforce sleeps, but games like TWW and TP refer to it as such. It is actually in the Sacred Realm, but most of the legends completely ignore the Sacred Realm.

Unless of coarse the first satement is true. I get it now.

I don't see any swamp ruins in FSA's swamp.

TMC then.

The point is, just because we see something in one game and not in another doesn't mean it's not there - just that it wasn't included.

Still seems fishy to me.

I would make an exception to this rule, though - if we see something that's different in one game than in another (like FSA's ruin-less swamp) because a certain element is omitted, then it's probably not there.

So Link never did the second dungeon (DW) in ALttP then?

I'll VM it to you when I get off work (ZL is blocked on these computers).

Look in the regular text dump then (English). Tell me ewhat it says because I'm pretty sure that the Jap goes the other way from the english.

Touche, but it's still a credit to ALttP's favor, and not against it.

Wha-?

The Twilight Curtain is the same as Hyrule, but it also actually engulfs Hyrule, whereas FSA's Dark World is another world entirely that just looks like Hyrule. We see Curtain-like examples of the effects of darkness on Hyrule in FSA (the Lost Woods, Frozen Hyrule), but the actual Dark World is still an alterante mirror world accessed through portals.

Yes but it only engulfs Hyrule in TP because you HAVE the ToC, unlike in FSA where you're just a spirit like everyone else...

And you're ignoring the question. How can it exist? Tell me.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Unless of coarse the first satement is true.

Exactly; we know the Triforce rests in the Sacred Realm, we know the legends say it rests in Hyrule, we can't necessarily say that the legend is literally true. =)

TMC then.

I have no problem with this, really.

Still seems fishy to me.

That "we don't see every portal from FSA in ALttP" is about as weird to me as the fact that "we don't see every temple from OoT in TP."

So Link never did the second dungeon (DW) in ALttP then?

I never said that - I said the stretch of swamp in FSA isn't the same as the one in ALttP, because they didn't bother to include the unique elements of ALttP's swamp (the ruins). It may be connected to that swamp in some way, but there's no direct evidence that they're the same aside from them both being swamps.

Look in the regular text dump then (English). Tell me ewhat it says because I'm pretty sure that the Jap goes the other way from the english.

I can't access any text dumps at all; all the sites that host them are blocked. I'll do it when I get home.

Wha-?

It's the Dark World (ALttP) accessed through portals (ALttP - they even use the same SFX) and a mirror of the Light world (ALttP).

And you're ignoring the question. How can it exist? Tell me.

It's not a question I can really answer - you're right, Ganon doesn't seem to have made his ALttP wish prior to FSA. But it remains true that the mirrored Hyrule world still appears in FSA regardless of whether it makes sense.