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  #41 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-17-2009, 09:30 PM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triforce of the Gods View Post
Well if it's the backstory it must lead directly into the game [/sarcasm]

OoT was developed as ALttP's backstory, but LoZ/AoL came between them in the timeline when it was released.
It was the ****ing in-game backstory, supported directly by the manual, undeniably tying the two DIRECTLY together.

Ocarina of Time ISN'T the backstory, that was officially retconned.

Like that, connections between games are indefinite, anything the creators say is fact when it comes to that. They're fragile creatures that nothing can really change.

But, in-game text is something that can never be taken out of the game, unless, say, a remake is released with different story, which would then become the new canon.

Again I ask, do you even know what the Imprisoning War is?
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  #42 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-17-2009, 10:39 PM
Guy-Manuel Guy-Manuel is a male United States Guy-Manuel is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Ocarina of Time ISN'T the backstory, that was officially retconned.
Proof? At what point has any Nintendo official ever stated that OoT is no longer the IW?

Quote:
Again I ask, do you even know what the Imprisoning War is?
As the ALttP GBA manual indicates, the purpose of the IW story is to explain the origins of the seal placed on the Sacred Realm. OoT explains this just fine, and FSA shows how Ganon re-enters the Sacred Realm for ALttP.

I fail to see where the problem lies here.
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  #43 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-17-2009, 11:13 PM
Bromion Bromion is a male Germany Bromion is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
Proof? At what point has any Nintendo official ever stated that OoT is no longer the IW?



As the ALttP GBA manual indicates, the purpose of the IW story is to explain the origins of the seal placed on the Sacred Realm. OoT explains this just fine, and FSA shows how Ganon re-enters the Sacred Realm for ALttP.

I fail to see where the problem lies here.
the issue is that while there are connections between the two games they are a bit loose and without developer confirmation on most of this it's difficult to do anything more than speculate on the matter.
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  #44 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-17-2009, 11:33 PM
Casual Matt Casual Matt is a male Canada Casual Matt is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Sorrow View Post
It was the ****ing in-game backstory, supported directly by the manual, undeniably tying the two DIRECTLY together.
Well, the A Link to the Past instruction manual specifically says that many centuries passed since the Imprisoning War. That's plenty of time for other games to take place in between.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:10 AM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Matt
Well, the A Link to the Past instruction manual specifically says that many centuries passed since the Imprisoning War. That's plenty of time for other games to take place in between.
In True Sorrow's defense, the manual does kind of imply that nothing notable happened between the events, especially the GBA manual (in Japanese).
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  #46 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 03:02 AM
theunabletable theunabletable is a male United States theunabletable is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
It was the ****ing in-game backstory, supported directly by the manual, undeniably tying the two DIRECTLY together.
Are you an LA theorist, by chance? Don't see this anger and certainty about the SW outside of LA

@Casual Matt: The GBA manual is quite clear (and the SNES manual combined with the game is even more clear) that nothing happened with Ganon and the Triforce between the SW and LttP.

But it's your choice on what you want to believe.

@Lex: I'm talking to you to say that we both know each others opinions on this and I really don't feel like debating the SW with you. So please don't respond as it's probably something that we've debated 9 times already...
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  #47 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 08:18 AM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sign-of-Madness View Post
Are you an LA theorist, by chance? Don't see this anger and certainty about the SW outside of LA
LA as in Link's Awakening or Los Angeles? Something else I don't know of? 'cuz you really have me lost here...

And I'm just being angry because theories that contradict facts make my blood boil

But anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Link to the Past's manual
I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army. Black clouds permanently darkened the sky, and many disasters beset Hyrule. The lord of Hyrule sent for the Seven Wise Men and the Knights Of Hyrule [sic], and ordered them to seal the entrance to the Golden Land.
That is just the beginning of the "The Imprisoning War" segment, and it's already contradicting the "OoT is the IW" theory. If you actually read the manual, you'll notice that it obviously comes AFTER Ganondorf obtains the Triforce "with his blood- stained hands" (God I love that)

So basically, the Imprisoning War IS the sealing of Ganondorf, not just the sealing of the Sacred Realm! The sealing of him AFTER he obtained the entire Triforce! There was also a fierce war, which you'll notice is entirely lacking in Ocarina. In fact, let's compare some facts!

The Triforce
Ocarina of Time: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
The Imprisoning War: Ganondorf has the entire Triforce.

I could just stop here, as I've already disproved your theory, but let's go on, shall we?

The sealing process
Ocarina of Time: Link weakens Ganondorf and the seven sages seal him inside the Sacred Realm.
The Imprisoning War: Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm and later sent monsters/evil/whatever to the outer world, which the knights of Hyrule then fought while the seven sages (or wise men, same thing really) sealed off the entrance, while he was inside.

Do I really need to go on?

Link
Ocarina of Time: He's the main hero behind it all.
The Imprisoning War: What Link?

'course, I just added that to spite your theory, I didn't really need any but one of those three points.

Now, do you still believe that the Imprisoning War can be Ocarina of Time?
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  #48 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 09:27 AM
Bromion Bromion is a male Germany Bromion is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

^ you bring up an interesting point. you could say that OoT retcons the LttP backstory, but the GBA manual for LttP still says that it was the King who gathered the sages, not Link. since the King is , in all likelihood, dead after Ganondorf takes over Hyrule. This could very well mean that OoT isn't the SW, at least not the one that we care about.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:35 AM
Double C Double C is a male Tanzania Double C is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

The thing is, with ALTTP after TP there is no connection between TP-Oot and ALTTP-games that follow. With an AT timeline, all the games have some connection to each other. The general idea behind that timeline is that taking some dubious facts as hinting towards a certain backstory is less of a fiction than said backstory happening out of the blue.

Though the ties are tenuous, some would prefer tenuous links with the preceding game rather than none. It's up to the individual theorist really.
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  #50 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 10:15 AM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Funny thing is, I personally haven't really seen said connections that would apply if it were all to happen in the adult timeline.

So, ummm, that'd be nice to hear, too.
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  #51 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 11:04 AM
Guy-Manuel Guy-Manuel is a male United States Guy-Manuel is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
So basically, the Imprisoning War IS the sealing of Ganondorf, not just the sealing of the Sacred Realm!
Funny that the GBA manual doesn't even mention him, then. That tells me that his sealing in OoT is no longer important to ALttP's backstory. Instead, FSA shows how he ends up in the Sacred Realm again.

Also, fun fact: the Imprisoning War is referred to as the "Seal War" in the Japanese versions. Not sure if you were aware of that already...

Quote:
Ocarina of Time: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
The Imprisoning War: Ganondorf has the entire Triforce.
I see this as more support for the Miyamoto Timeline, personally.

OoT: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power
LoZ: Ganon somehow escapes the seal with the Triforce of Power
ALttP: Ganon is reborn/revived and re-enters the Sacred Realm and acquires the entire Triforce

Quote:
Ocarina of Time: Link weakens Ganondorf and the seven sages seal him inside the Sacred Realm.
The Imprisoning War: Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm and later sent monsters/evil/whatever to the outer world, which the knights of Hyrule then fought while the seven sages (or wise men, same thing really) sealed off the entrance, while he was inside.
This is easily taken care of by one simple in-game quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALttP's Intro
... ...But, when these events were obscured by the mists of time and became legend...
Everything you mentioned there happens in OoT, just not in the way it's presented in ALttP's manual.

Quote:
Ocarina of Time: He's the main hero behind it all.
The Imprisoning War: What Link?
So I guess that TWW's backstory can't possibly be OoT, because the sages aren't even mentioned, right?

Quote:
Now, do you still believe that the Imprisoning War can be Ocarina of Time?
Of course. The IW story as it is told in ALttP is a legend, and OoT was created later as an adaptation of that story. If the writers said it's the IW and nothing has since come along to change that, I see nothing wrong with it being the IW.
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  #52 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 11:49 AM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
Funny that the GBA manual doesn't even mention him, then. That tells me that his sealing in OoT is no longer important to ALttP's backstory. Instead, FSA shows how he ends up in the Sacred Realm again.
Funny how the GBA manual doesn't even say Imprisoning War: It completely omits the name, so if you're going to argue about said war use the original manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
I see this as more support for the Miyamoto Timeline, personally.

OoT: Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power
LoZ: Ganon somehow escapes the seal with the Triforce of Power
ALttP: Ganon is reborn/revived and re-enters the Sacred Realm and acquires the entire Triforce
What? Just...what?

There IS no game that happens between the Imprisoning War and A Link to the Past, at least not one that includes Ganondorf, because he is sealed inside the Dark World.

Again: TRY to explain the Triforce difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
This is easily taken care of by one simple in-game quote:

[quote explaining it's just a legend}

Everything you mentioned there happens in OoT, just not in the way it's presented in ALttP's manual.
That is the worst argument I've heard in a LONG time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
So I guess that TWW's backstory can't possibly be OoT, because the sages aren't even mentioned, right?
Ok, you're actually right there. In fact, replace "Link" with "lots of soldiers" and turn it around, and you'll get this:

Lots of soldiers
Ocarina of Time: What soldiers?
Imprisoning War: The soldiers keep the evil at bay.

And thus Ocarina of Time being the Imprisoning War is DISPROVED for the millionth time in this very topic. I'd LOVE to see you shake your way out of that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
Of course. The IW story as it is told in ALttP is a legend, and OoT was created later as an adaptation of that story. If the writers said it's the IW and nothing has since come along to change that, I see nothing wrong with it being the IW.
****

just ****

Is your skull really so thick that you can't get it into your head that the Imprisoning War was about Ganondorf getting sealed, something that happens to a DIFFERENT Ganondorf in Ocarina, a Ganondorf that was in Wind Waker?

again,

****
Last Edited by True Sorrow; 06-18-2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 12:42 PM
theunabletable theunabletable is a male United States theunabletable is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Funny that the GBA manual doesn't even mention him, then. That tells me that his sealing in OoT is no longer important to ALttP's backstory.
Funny how it even shortens things that didn't need it. lolAgahnim.

Funny how the game still mentions the seal. Here's an example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Palace Maiden
...even this world, originally, was the sacred land where the Triforce was placed.

But the man who obtained it...
By the evil wish of the thief boss "Ganon", into such a world...
,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiden in Swamp Palace
...the Triforce grants the wish of the one who touched it.
As long as that person is alive...
,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiden of Village of Outcasts
When the Seven Sages sealed the passage to the Dark World, the ones who protected them from the attack of the demons was the the Knight Family. I heard that in the battle then, the Knight's bloodline nearly died out...
,
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Essence of the Triforce
Ganon's wish was to claim the world. That evil wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness.
Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish.
However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.
With those quotes it becomes clear.

We know Ganon touched the Triforce. We know when he touched the Triforce the Sacred Land got transformed into the Dark World. We know that the Seven Sages sealed the Dark World.

Put those together. What do we get? A clear story of what happened.

You can ignore that and say that the game is talking about a different Dark World or Ganon, but that's ridiculous. I'm not saying it's ridiculous because it's a valid answer and I don't want to lose the debate. I'm sincerely saying that that is completely ridiculous and is like ignoring the intent in the FSA manual for it to be a direct sequel to FS.
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  #54 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 01:20 PM
Florina Laufeyson Florina Laufeyson is a female Norway Florina Laufeyson is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecove View Post
Explain TP-ALttP without using FSA, NOW!
QUICK! Explain TP-ALttP without FSA existing at all, NOW.

If there were ever a topic that needed Impossible right now its this one.
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  #55 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Guy-Manuel Guy-Manuel is a male United States Guy-Manuel is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
There IS no game that happens between the Imprisoning War and A Link to the Past, at least not one that includes Ganondorf, because he is sealed inside the Dark World.
The Miyamoto Timeline suggests otherwise. As do more recent games.

Quote:
That is the worst argument I've heard in a LONG time.
Care to explain why? I never said that the IW never happened, but that the story as it is told in the ALttP manual is a legend (which the game itself makes pretty clear), just like TWW's backstory is in relation to OoT.

Quote:
Lots of soldiers
Ocarina of Time: What soldiers?
Imprisoning War: The soldiers keep the evil at bay.

And thus Ocarina of Time being the Imprisoning War is DISPROVED for the millionth time in this very topic.
What the hell do you mean "what soldiers?" They were there in OoT, and they were killed, just as the IW story says.

Sorry, try again.

Quote:
Is your skull really so thick that you can't get it into your head that the Imprisoning War was about Ganondorf getting sealed, something that happens to a DIFFERENT Ganondorf in Ocarina, a Ganondorf that was in Wind Waker?
OoT Ganondorf is obviously important to the creation of the seal (OoT), but he means nothing as far as ALttP is concerned as FSA gives us a new Ganon.

Quote:
Funny how the game still mentions the seal. Here's an example.
Yeah. But like I just said, OoT's Ganon is no longer important to ALttP because FSA gives us a new Ganon.

Quote:
We know Ganon touched the Triforce. We know when he touched the Triforce the Sacred Land got transformed into the Dark World. We know that the Seven Sages sealed the Dark World.
Sounds a lot like OoT to me.
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  #56 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 02:04 PM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
The Miyamoto Timeline suggests otherwise. As do more recent games.
Miyamoto doesn't care about the storyline, he's said that over and over, that was just some random bull he threw together.

Do you even believe it yourself?

And I don't see how other games contradict it one bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
Care to explain why? I never said that the IW never happened, but that the story as it is told in the ALttP manual is a legend (which the game itself makes pretty clear), just like TWW's backstory is in relation to OoT.
Just blaming it all on "oh it's just a legend" is just an extreme cop-out, nothing more.

Hell, since the Imprisoning War is just a legend, why are you even arguing that it CAN be placed as one specific event?

Also, perhaps you missed when

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
o you mean "what soldiers?" They were there in OoT, and they were killed, just as the IW story says.

Sorry, try again.
The story of the Imprisoning War tells that they were killed, no, MASSACRED whilst defending the sages as they closed the seal off. Hell, so many of them died, the Hylian bloodline was almost eradicated!

In Ocarina of Time a couple of soldiers were killed when Ganondorf took over.

NO SIRREE, THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE THERE!

And please, do try to explain that one. If you don't, I'll just assume you've given up and stop bothering.



Everything else you guys said pressed one question: Are you even talking about the IMPRISONING WAR as in the event that was explained in the manual of A Link to the Past?
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  #57 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 02:10 PM
Erimgard Erimgard is a male Mexico Erimgard is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

A: Miyamoto has never said he doesn't care about the story. Miyamoto has stated that storyline is just one of the elements he cares about, and he doesn't put it above the other ones. He olds all elements of a game in equal regard.

B: The Seal/Imprisoning War doesn't have to be FSA or after FSA for FSA and aLttP to be close together on the timeline.

And if you're trying to pin down the Seal/Imprisoning War as a single event on the timeline using the SNES aLttP manual...you can't. It's impossible. The GBA manual is less detailed/specific.
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  #58 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 02:20 PM
True Sorrow True Sorrow is a male Iceland True Sorrow is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erimgard View Post
A: Miyamoto has never said he doesn't care about the story. Miyamoto has stated that storyline is just one of the elements he cares about, and he doesn't put it above the other ones. He olds all elements of a game in equal regard.

B: The Seal/Imprisoning War doesn't have to be FSA or after FSA for FSA and aLttP to be close together on the timeline.

And if you're trying to pin down the Seal/Imprisoning War as a single event on the timeline using the SNES aLttP manual...you can't. It's impossible. The GBA manual is less detailed/specific.
A: Last I checked, Aonuma and Koizumi were the only ones to really make any attempt at properly fit them all together.

And seriously, who uses the OoT - LoZ - AoL - ALttP placement, anyway?

B: Umm, yes it does. That is, if you really are using the A Link to the Past manual, which has the ONLY mention of anything called "Imprisoning War" in the ENTIRE SERIES.

And about it not fitting, why not? It fits very well as a seperate event right before A Link to the Past, all neat and tidy.

Unless you can show me how it doesn't work? Any solid contradictions in there? At all?
Last Edited by True Sorrow; 06-18-2009 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 02:25 PM
Erimgard Erimgard is a male Mexico Erimgard is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Sorrow View Post
A: Last I checked, Aonuma and Koizumi were the only ones to really make any attempt at properly fit them all together.
And Aonuma refers to Miyamoto as "the absolute" on ALL matters...including storyline/timeline.

Quote:
B: Umm, yes it does. That is, if you really are using the A Link to the Past manual, which has the ONLY mention of anything called "Imprisoning War" in the ENTIRE SERIES.

And about it not fitting, why not? It fits very well as a seperate event right before A Link to the Past, all neat and tidy.

Unless you can show me how it doesn't work? Any solid contradictions in there? At all?
The SNES manual requires the Ganondorf, the King of Thieves, enters the Sacred Realm "completely by chance" with a group of theives. He kills the thieves, and claims the Triforce for himself. This event is the "birth" of the Ganon (as stated in the manual).

No one knows what he wished for, but his evil/malicious power flowed out of the Sacred Realm and into Hyrule, surrounding Hyrule Castle. The King ordered the Knights and the Sages to seal the Sacred Realm. All the Knights were killed by Ganon's evil/malicious power, but the Sages succeeded in casting a Seal over the source of the evil. Ganon never left the Sacred Realm during this process, only his evil/malicious power did.

So, you seem to believe yourself to be a pretty astute timeline theorist. Tell me how these events can all play out exactly as stated in the SNES manual, including this being the first time that Ganondorf transformed into Ganon. (as the SNES manual states it was the BIRTH of Ganon)

It's not OoT, becuase he left the Sacred Realm in OoT, and then got sealed in it 7 years later.
It can't be post OoT because it wouldn't mark the birth of Ganon.
It can't be post TP because it wouldn't mark the birth of Ganon.
It can't be pre-OoT becuase Hylians are extinct in aLttP, but thrive in OoT.
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Last Edited by Erimgard; 06-18-2009 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 06-18-2009, 02:35 PM
River Zora River Zora is a male United Kingdom River Zora is offline
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Re: What supports the Four Swords Adentures to A Link to the Past flow?

I, actually, only just last night accepted that Nintendo probably have retconned out OoT as the IW... It saddens me that I had to accept it, but it's the only way to make any sense of it.
BUT
I think FSA has even less chance of being the IW. It doesn't link at all with how I understand the IW to be, so in that sense I agree with the initial post. There are more inconsistencies with FSA=war than OoT=war, and I've had to forget that idea.
I think that perhaps OoT describes the first part of the back story, where Ganondorf comes from an his attempt, but that there is more that comes much later to bring it together. Mainly because aLttP only seems to fit child timeline the way I reckon, so OoT's war of the sages never happened. He must have been sealed at a later date which hasn't been explored in the games so far since the retcon.
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*What actually happened*What if Vaati had been sealed, not destroyed, in tMC*
*As blue, plus what if Midna had not destroyed the Mirror of Twilight*What if Link had failed in OoT*
*What if Link had failed in OoX and Ganon changed his name to Gannon*

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adentures, flow, link to the past, supports, swords


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