Geography Changes - Part 1: Minish Cap to Ocarina of Time

I am eventually going to post all my theories about the geography changes between each game, but I have lots to say. I am going to start out with the changes between Minish Cap and Ocarina of time, explaining for formation of the desert, the creation of Zora's Domain and re-location of Lake Hylia from east to the south-west via shifts, ect..

Because Minish Cap has locations named differently than all of the other games, this is an obvious sign that it is at a very different point in Hyrule's history when compared to the other games. Rather than classing it as being really late on (one of) the timelines, use common sense and understand that these locations were likely renamed years after Minish Cap (notice how Four Swords Adventures, which actually HAS to be after Minish Cap, has geograhpy very similar to A Link to the Past both appearance and in their names? Now why would, say, Death Mountain one day be re-named Veil Falls, only to be re-named Death Mount again by the time period of Four Swords Adventures? This is Hyrule's early geography history!


Ault Timeline: MC - OOT - TWW - PH - TLOZ - AOL
Child Timeline: MC - OOT - MM - TP - FSA - ALTTP - OOA/OOS - LA

We start out with Minish Cap, the first game. The geography in this game is very different to all of the others, as this is one of the few games set in the original Hyrule to have things named so... differently.

In this game, we have Hyrule Castle Town around the centre of Hyrule and Hyrule Castle a little further up to the northern part of Hyrule (as always). To our East, we have Lake Hylia; South East, we have Minish Woods (woods in the south-east seems familiar...); North East, Veil Falls, connected to and feeding Lake Hylia (hmm...) and fiarly close to Hyrule Castle (seem familiar?); the whole west area consits of a swamp called Castor Wilds and the infamous Mount Creenel and its dreaded rains heavy rain drops (if you're no bigger than someone's thumb, that is), towering above the swamp area (should a mountain collapse over and into a swamp, would they not form an area that consists of quicks sand and sand in the west of Hyrule?). I will forget about all the areas that aren't imporant landmarks, but I must note that Link's home area could be surrounded by a forest one day based on its location...

Lake Hylia's river in Minish Cap also runs over to the the Mount Creenel area where, if that mountain collapsed over and fell into the swamp of Castor Wilds, a possible desert may form and evntually move further up north to the former Mount Creenel area, leaving Castor Wilds empty. Water from Lake Hylia always connected to and stopped around this west area, but the shifts would allow the river water to go on further down and past the newly-formed desert, entering the possible george where Castor Wilds once was, becoming a lake, the new Lake Hylia is south-west Hyrule. This would cause the lake Hylia in the east to be merely a large river getting its water from the lower area of Veil Falls. The Zora's, however, make use of this advacned river that is located near the lower areas of Veil Falls, turning it into Zora's Domain and keeping a watch over Hyrule's water because of the sudden change in Lake Hylia's location. Veil Falls itself is basically the edges of what will become Death Mountain.

Because of the demise of Mount Creenel (they seem to be evacuating that mountain), the Gorons needed a new mountain area: Veil Falls. The journey to Veil Falls and rename is Death Mountain when they discover its secret: it has a vollcano, and people have died because of it. They make home at the high areas of Veil Falls, now Death Mountain (note that this area may have been further up than where you can explore in Minish Cap's map). With most of Hyrule turning closewise, the Minish Woods went from east to south-east, eventually being dubbed the Kokiri Forest and Lost Woods.

Looking at everything, we now have a desert in the north-west, new Lake Hylia in the south-west, the former Lake Hylia now merely a large and beginging source of Hyrule's rivers and further up Zora's Domain, the re-naming of Minish Woods to Kokiri Forest the Lost Woods when they shirt further from the east to south-east, Hyrule Town moved way up north and close to Hyrule Castle, Hyrule Field seen as a full Field again and Lon-Lon Ranch is moved from the the right side of Hyrule Field to its centre where Hyrule Town once was. Because the Royal Valley was lost when Hyrule shifted (it was located the left area of around Hyrule Castle), the Royal Family requested that Impa help form a new graveyard for their royal members, which was place not so far away and to the right of Hyrule Castle and its town (a little further down, though). Dampe, the same as from Minish Cap, merely kept his job and worked at the new graveyard (this is all around some years before Ocarina of Time, whereas the major geography changes are the span over over 100 years). Impa also founded a second Kakariko Village close to the graveyard and opened it for the Hylians.

Hidden Village, the original Kakariko Village, is hidden within the mountains and located right in the area where the Royal Valley of Minish Cap was (seriously! If you look at the Twilight Princess map and turn it to match with the Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker maps, you'll see that hidden village is where Royal Valley was, and this same area becomes Wind Fall island by the events of the Wind Waker!), and this area is where a maority of the surviving Sheikah tribe were hiding, explaining there expression as "hidden in the shadows" (hidden in the shadows of Hyrule's Mountains, in a hidden village).

I would love to go into the story connections between the events of Minish Cap and Ocarina of Times (my theories concerning the war that happens between them, one that united Hyrule and the desert), but this mainly concerns the geography, not the story of the locations. But see my Sheikah Origins theroy, because that goes deep into the war that happen some time before Ocarina of Time and obviously after Minish Cap, which sees the very beginging of it (just read it to get what I mean!).


See? All you need is a creative imagination, some logic, and common sense to figure out Hyrule's changes. In my case, Minish Cap has locations with different names than all of the other games because this was earlier than the other games, and the locations were different (no desert until the merging of rocks, dust, ect., from Mount Creenel into the Castor Wilds swamp, which went on to move further north, leaving the river from Lake Hylia that was flowwing towards the east, just like in Ocaria of Time, to expand and fill up the empty space in south-west Hyrule, causing Lake Hylia to now be here and the former to become the are of Zora's Domain, ect..)

one question: how does Hryule go from being surrounded by water in MC to being landlocked in OoT?

Originally Posted by Tyras

one question: how does Hryule go from being surrounded by water in MC to being landlocked in OoT?

Hyrule was surrounded by "clouds" in OoT.

AKA: we don't know what Hyrule was surrounded by in OoT.

Originally Posted by TheBattler

Hyrule was surrounded by "clouds" in OoT.

AKA: we don't know what Hyrule was surrounded by in OoT.

Yeah, the thing about Hyrule maps is, you can only ever see Hyrule and not beyond. I see Zelda 2 as an exception, though, as that explores land that is located beyond and behind Death Mountain (the Zelda 1 area was clearly the Hyrule seen in all of the games set in Hyrule, except for Zelda 2, and The Wind Waker is the exact same place, but flooded and reduced to islands.

Originally Posted by Tyras

one question: how does Hryule go from being surrounded by water in MC to being landlocked in OoT?

I don't recall seeing Hyrule ever surrouned by water in any of the games (Zelda 2 is not the same land as the other games, it is north of Death Mountain, so that place is a, as I say, probably the new Hyrule because the lower, original part is seen, well, completely ravaged and empty, with the occasion salesman using a cave as a store), but I do assume that it always is, as there has to be water surrounding it at the edges s0mewhere for Link to journey to other lands, such as when he left Hyrule in a boat before Link's Awakening happened.

My guess is that Hyrule is a large island, and there is another portion of land beyond Death Mountain, as seen in Zelda 2, which shows surrounding, small islands, and that northern part has a beach!

Please post maps next time you do this as such:http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...mparisons.html

Originally Posted by Horny Dog Matt

I don't recall seeing Hyrule ever surrouned by water in any of the games (Zelda 2 is not the same land as the other games, it is north of Death Mountain, so that place is a, as I say, probably the new Hyrule because the lower, original part is seen, well, completely ravaged and empty, with the occasion salesman using a cave as a store), but I do assume that it always is, as there has to be water surrounding it at the edges s0mewhere for Link to journey to other lands, such as when he left Hyrule in a boat before Link's Awakening happened.

My guess is that Hyrule is a large island, and there is another portion of land beyond Death Mountain, as seen in Zelda 2, which shows surrounding, small islands, and that northern part has a beach!

head up to the palace of winds in MC and when you look down you'll see nothing but water and islands. In FSA, Hyrule is depicted as an island, the costline is even visited in game but all other hyrules hve been described as being surrounded by mountains and forests. Hyrule obviously has some sort of acess to a body of water, but it is only depicted as an island(s) in games taking place after the flood.

Originally Posted by Tyras

head up to the palace of winds in MC and when you look down you'll see nothing but water and islands. In FSA, Hyrule is depicted as an island, the costline is even visited in game but all other hyrules hve been described as being surrounded by mountains and forests. Hyrule obviously has some sort of acess to a body of water, but it is only depicted as an island(s) in games taking place after the flood.

You have to keep in mind that the Palce of Winds was EXTREMELY high up, so the reason for seeing water is that you are so high up that Hyrule appears tiny from there, and so you see Hyrule as a whole. You also need to note that seeing Hyrule as an Island and sometimes not as an Island is awkward, because you are viewing it from a bird's eye view, whereas you see it from a normal point in the 3D games. Id say, Four Swords Adevntures and Minish Cap were 3D, you would see them just like Hyrule in all of the other 3D games.

And also image viewing the 3D Hyrules froma 2D view, then you would probably see it like how you do in MC. It's really that it always looks more like an island from 2D perspective. And in The Wind Waker, there place where Hyrule was has both water and islands all around this water, but how come there are no other islands aside from those made from what remains of Hyrule? That means that there wasn't much land around Hyrule, just a few mountains and the odd forest, but beyond that may have been docks.

Another intesting thing about Minis Cap is, this game is very early, as Miyamato himself said, so maybe Hyrule was still expanding into bigger land at the time? I mean, so many landmarks are named differently, too, Four Swords Adventures sees Hyrule like all the other games. If placing Minish Cap late, Four Swords Adevntures simply couldn't follow it, so people place it in early Hyrule history, at a time before Death Mountain was named, ect..

Please, I beg you, don't flood the forum with 12 parts of your geographical analysis. Make only one thread and post everything u want to establish. please.

And before you go on. Please make sure you read my geographical analysis located here:
http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...geography.html
before you go on.

And use images for geographical analysis, it helps a lot

Nice read though...

Originally Posted by Tyras

one question: how does Hryule go from being surrounded by water in MC to being landlocked in OoT?

how about before you go citing background images, you make sure you've seen all of them?



Please note Mt. Crenel, Veil Falls and Climbing a Beanstalk. I'd say 3 BGs > 1 BG, or the Palace of Winds is really that high.

Silly bee, Hyrule was surrounded by mountains and forests in OoT!

Originally Posted by ALttP, describing Hyrule before the Sacred Realm was opened

Long ago, in Hyrule, a beautiful kingdom surrounded by forests and mountains... legends told of an omnipotent and omniscient Golden Power that lay hidden.

My biggest problems are as follows:

1) TMC's Veil Falls more directly correlates to FSA's waterfall, which also has Lake Hylia essentially at its foot, rather than a long way downstream as we see it in OoT and ALttP. As your timeline would have it, Lake Hylia is nearby the waterfall's foot in TMC, a long way downstream (so far that it has carved canyons in the meantime) in OoT, back immediately at the waterfall's foot again in FSA, and once again far downstream in ALttP.

This seems messy; you have no explanation for why the Lake has "reset itself" in terms of geographical position. Putting TMC in sequence with FSA would generate more consistency in the first place, and the Great Flood could account for the "resetting" of the lake's position relative to the waterfall. (Moreover, compare Lake Hylia's surroundings in TMC to those of the large lake area in LoZ- I think you'll find that pretty consistent as well.)

This would also allow you to retain the waterfall's status as the source of Hyrule's water without having to associate it with Death Mountain- the waterfall is a separate entity in both FSA and ALttP.

2) Compare the swamp of Castor Wilds to the swampy area west of Lake Hylia in ALttP. Don't they seem similar (look at the ruined structures in particular)? Given these similarities, I think having the swamp become the OoT desert is counter intuitive- Castor Wilds is pretty clearly based on the swamp from ALttP.

3) Mt. Crenel does seem to be obviously related to Death Mountain (it is the volcanic former home of the Gorons, after all!), but why your adamant disassociation of Crenel from Death Mountain?

4) Also, doesn't the graveyard in TMC remind you of a certain other graveyard in the series (I'm lookin' at you, LoZ)? Go into the Royal Crypt and you'll see more of what I mean.

(I like your timeline, by the way!)

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) TMC's Veil Falls more directly correlates to FSA's waterfall, which also has Lake Hylia essentially at its foot, rather than a long way downstream as we see it in OoT and ALttP. As your timeline would have it, Lake Hylia is nearby the waterfall's foot in TMC, a long way downstream (so far that it has carved canyons in the meantime) in OoT, back immediately at the waterfall's foot again in FSA, and once again far downstream in ALttP.

I've said it before, but oh well. OoT was developed as LttP's BS, in the same area, so Lake Hylia's location never seemed to mater much.

This seems messy; you have no explanation for why the Lake has "reset itself" in terms of geographical position. Putting TMC in sequence with FSA would generate more consistency in the first place, and the Great Flood could account for the "resetting" of the lake's position relative to the waterfall. (Moreover, compare Lake Hylia's surroundings in TMC to those of the large lake area in LoZ- I think you'll find that pretty consistent as well.)

It doesn't make sense either way. First you have the Lake in the SE (OoT), then it moves to the middle west (tMC), then NW (FSA), then SW (LttP). It's jumping around any way you look at it. MW, SE, NW, SW makes just as much sense.

This would also allow you to retain the waterfall's status as the source of Hyrule's water without having to associate it with Death Mountain- the waterfall is a separate entity in both FSA and ALttP.

But OoT and LttP were/are the same place [originally].

2) Compare the swamp of Castor Wilds to the swampy area west of Lake Hylia in ALttP. Don't they seem similar (look at the ruined structures in particular)? Given these similarities, I think having the swamp become the OoT desert is counter intuitive- Castor Wilds is pretty clearly based on the swamp from ALttP.

So that area gets frozen over in FSA and all the structures remain? Ice is really good for breaking stuff you know. I like Castor becoming Lake Hylia (OoT) personally.

3) Mt. Crenel does seem to be obviously related to Death Mountain (it is the volcanic former home of the Gorons, after all!), but why your adamant disassociation of Crenel from Death Mountain?

Crenel is nowhere near the location of any Death Mountain. It could, however, be under the clouded area west of OoT's castle.

4) Also, doesn't the graveyard in TMC remind you of a certain other graveyard in the series (I'm lookin' at you, LoZ)? Go into the Royal Crypt and you'll see more of what I mean.

Ok, try lining up The MS location for OoT and LttP. You should notice that Kakariko graveyard and the cemetery at the foot of LttP Death Mountain line up. If OoT-tMC-LttP, the graveyard moves away and then back again. If tMC-OoT-LttP, it only moves once. Additionally, if you're trying to prove tMC-LoZ/AoL-FSS-LttP, why do they rebuild LttP in LoZ Hyrule when they have AoL's civilization? Also, tMC and LoZ's similarities are less than those of OoS and LoZ.

additional note: with CT LttP, any parallels between tMC and LttP will not prove anything.

Originally Posted by Slagr

It doesn't make sense either way. First you have the Lake in the SE (OoT), then it moves to the middle west (tMC), then NW (FSA), then SW (LttP). It's jumping around any way you look at it. MW, SE, NW, SW makes just as much sense.

OoT- Southeast
Flood- Gone
LoZ- Foot of the waterfall (bordering eastern woods)
TMC- Foot of the waterfall (northeastern area, bordering eastern valley & woods)
FSA- Foot of the waterfall (northeastern area)
ALttP- Southeast (where the Village of the Blue Maiden is in FSA)

That's just me.

But OoT and LttP were/are the same place [originally].

Obviously; TWW didn't exist in 1998.

So that area gets frozen over in FSA and all the structures remain? Ice is really good for breaking stuff you know. I like Castor becoming Lake Hylia (OoT) personally.

Yeah, pretty much (see TP's Upper Zora's River, where a wooden structure survives not only ice, but the roaring river that erupts when the ice melts)

Crenel is nowhere near the location of any Death Mountain. It could, however, be under the clouded area west of OoT's castle.

Volcano at the northern sector of the map, nearby the castle.

That actually sounds like every Zelda game set in Hyrule since ALttP, actually.

Ok, try lining up The MS location for OoT and LttP. You should notice that Kakariko graveyard and the cemetery at the foot of LttP Death Mountain line up. If OoT-tMC-LttP, the graveyard moves away and then back again. If tMC-OoT-LttP, it only moves once.

TMC's graveyard is also immediately at the foot of the mountain [Crenel], as is the graveyard I argue it is identical to [LoZ's], so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Additionally, if you're trying to prove tMC-LoZ/AoL-FSS-LttP, why do they rebuild LttP in LoZ Hyrule when they have AoL's civilization?

Define "why do they rebuild ALttP in LoZ Hyrule," please. I have no idea what you're talking about!

Also, tMC and LoZ's similarities are less than those of OoS and LoZ.

Or OoS and ALttP for that matter (Lost Woods + sword pedestal to the northwest, Lake to the southeast, coastline to the south, Goron Mountain to the north- the similarities are endless!)

Silliness aside, I'd argue that TMC's references to LoZ are more explicit.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

OoT- Southeast
Flood- Gone
LoZ- Foot of the waterfall (bordering eastern woods)
TMC- Foot of the waterfall (northeastern area, bordering eastern valley & woods)
FSA- Foot of the waterfall (northeastern area)
ALttP- Southeast (where the Village of the Blue Maiden is in FSA)

That's just me.

I know you... I'm trying to keep my arguments CT oriented as the thread's trend seems to be.

Obviously; TWW didn't exist in 1998.

which is also why OoT may not be the SW anymore.

[quote]Yeah, pretty much (see TP's Upper Zora's River, where a wooden structure survives not only ice, but the roaring river that erupts when the ice melts)

wood survives ice way better than stone. Why do you think they put those cracks in sidewalks?

Volcano at the northern sector of the map, nearby the castle.

always west of the castle though, except LttP and LoZ where it is directly north, but still west of LttP's MS location (OoT's castle). Crenel is to the east.

That actually sounds like every Zelda game set in Hyrule since ALttP, actually.

darn those 2d graphical limitations!

TMC's graveyard is also immediately at the foot of the mountain [Crenel], as is the graveyard I argue it is identical to [LoZ's], so I don't really know what you're talking about.

but it's on the wrong side of both OoT and LttP's castles.

Define "why do they rebuild ALttP in LoZ Hyrule," please. I have no idea what you're talking about!

LttP and LoZ are pretty obviously the same place (see Smertios's thread) and if you're trying to prove tMC-LoZ with the graveyeard, then FSS-LttP must come after.

Or OoS and ALttP for that matter (Lost Woods + sword pedestal to the northwest, Lake to the southeast, coastline to the south, Goron Mountain to the north- the similarities are endless!)

OoS's map was based on LoZ, as was LttP's. It was just an example.

Silliness aside, I'd argue that TMC's references to LoZ are more explicit.

but I don't see how the similarities can be organized to definitively support your position.

[QUOTE=Slagr;2884211]I know you... I'm trying to keep my arguments CT oriented as the thread's trend seems to be.



which is also why OoT may not be the SW anymore.

Yeah, pretty much (see TP's Upper Zora's River, where a wooden structure survives not only ice, but the roaring river that erupts when the ice melts)

wood survives ice way better than stone. Why do you think they put those cracks in sidewalks?



always west of the castle though, except LttP and LoZ where it is directly north, but still west of LttP's MS location (OoT's castle). Crenel is to the east.



darn those 2d graphical limitations!



but it's on the wrong side of both OoT and LttP's castles.



LttP and LoZ are pretty obviously the same place (see Smertios's thread) and if you're trying to prove tMC-LoZ with the graveyeard, then FSS-LttP must come after.



OoS's map was based on LoZ, as was LttP's. It was just an example.



but I don't see how the similarities can be organized to definitively support your position.

After looking at a person whose timeline is based [i]on the geography[/s] above all else, I saw that they made a major breakthrough about Hyrule, as in new Hyrule geography.

The linkage is as follows: http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...geography.html

What he found out makes total sense, and shows that Lake Hylia is jumping around Hyrule (Lake Hylia: Screw this joint! I'm moving to the east! *jumps over to eastern Hyrule*) from time to time, either. In fact, Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess are probably the only games set in the original, non-flooded Hyrule, and that Hyrule saw Lake Hylia in the south-west, while the other games set in new Hyrule (around the same area as old Hyrule, but the geography was completely changed because of the rapid seas, only Death Mountain remaining pretty much the same) always sea Lake Hylia somewhere around the eastern area.

His timeline (which I consider beliving in, as he went into full geography detail, and it works pretty well with th story orders, ect..) goes AS followed: OOT - TWW - PH - MC - FS - FSA - ALTTP - LA - TLOZ - AOL
As for his child timeline: OOT - MM - TP

Minish Cap can easily been seen as the earliest game set in new Hyrule because it officially does take place before Four Swords and Four Swords Adevntures, which in themselves are easily placed before A Link to the Past and, in turn, Link's Awakening, placing Minish Cap before all of them. Also note that Minish Cap has many similarities to The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass (the shield design, the appearance of Link and Zelda, ect..), and Hyrule in it is seen as a pretty small island, with that island growing through the following games, and it would be an island because of what happened with the Great Flood destroying Hyrule as a huge nation connected by land to other countries.

The reason no games will come after Zelda 1 is because Hyrule gets ravaged and destroyed by Ganon in this games, so the remaining people would have moved north of Death Mountain, where land more land has now formed (as seen in Zelda 2), slowly connecting the (second) Hyrule to the other countries again, just like when it was a huge nation of connected countries back in the days of Ocarna of Time (the great flood splits the countries, destroys the original Hyrule, and then the new Hyrule is an island throught games going from MC - FS - FSA, but starts connecting with the country north of it again around A Link to the Past and Zelda 2.

Again... http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...geography.html

Just view that thread, and then you will make sense out of it. He made maps showing each map of Hyrule from all of the games and then... Well, just view the thread.

So ultimately, there has been 3 Hyrules: Hyrule 1 (OOT), Hyrule 2 (TWW anD PH are before Hyrule 2, which is: MC - FS - FSA - ATTP - TLOZ), and Hyrule 3 (AOL)

I didn't include Twilight Princess, which is in the original Hyrule (Hyrule 1), because that is parallel to the timeline that he made (there was no flood, no awakened sages, ect..), and Link's Awakening is a dream island. As for Hyrule 3, the Hyrule 2 was ravaged by Ganon in Zelda 1, so the people moved north of death mountain and founded empty land where a majority of the flood had gone (several other countries surrounding Hyrule were flooded, seppetating them as a huge nation and eventually left as empty land when the flood went from them, just as before the foudnign of Hyrule 2), and that technically makes this the third Hyrule, which has towns named after the awakened sages from Ocarina of Time.

I guess you could say that, after the events of A Link to the Past, Link journeyed the sea and lived in a dream world, where one of the nightmares was of Ganon, possibily foreshadowing his return. When he got back to Hyrule after Link's Awakening, it was ravaged, and the people moved up north. This is supported, because the ravage could have easily been a result of Link's absense after A Link to the Past, and the geographu between A Link to the Past and Zelda 1 is identical: except Zelda 1 sees it ravaged, with a graveyard located right where the A Link to the Past Kakariko Village was.

Originally Posted by Horny Dog Matt

a long post... Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess are probably the only games set in the original, non-flooded Hyrule

but every single game before 2003 took place in the same Hyrule. Specifically, OoT was developed as the exact same kingdom as LttP, making it the SW at the time, and I don;t see how or why Nintendo would decide they want those two areas to be different places now.

EDIT: I've already read Smertios's thread 3 times.

Originally Posted by Slagr

but every single game before 2003 took place in the same Hyrule. Specifically, OoT was developed as the exact same kingdom as LttP, making it the SW at the time, and I don;t see how or why Nintendo would decide they want those two areas to be different places now.

EDIT: I've already read Smertios's thread 3 times.

Miyamoto himself once stated that, with each new game, the timeline as we know it can have drastic changes. In this case, once The Wind Waker was released, things about whic Hyrule is which took a different path. That game clearly gave a full potential that the Hyrule in all games except for Ocarina of Time (there was no Twilight Princess back then, as you know) were in a new Hyrule after the great flood, a Hyrule that is sitting on a large island formed out of the smaller Great Sea Islands, with other large Islands around it that were Hyrules once-connected countries back in the Ocarina of Time era.

I was amazed about what he mentioned and showed us the map about the World of the Ocean King islands forming into the large island (region, as he calls it) that we see located north-east of the ravaged second Hyrule during the events of Zelda 2. The World of the Ocean King, like the Great Sea (original Hyrule) was very likely once a large country, one that was connected to Hyrule and those two other lands (the Din and Nayru lands) and another unnamed one which, considering that the two other regions are assoited with a Hyrule goddess each, leaves the this 'reigion 3' very much likely to be Faroe's country (at least, before the flood).

When you add what he said up, Region 1 is Hyrule (the second Hyrule after the land came together again and, on that map, focuses on the upper Death Mountain area), Region 2 above Region 1 (Hyrule) is Labrynna (the two countries are connected by land again), region 3 is another country which absolutely nothign is known about (the only one not seen in any other Zelda game), region 4 is the World of the Ocean King (which is now almost a full country again), and reigion 5 is Holdrum. When you look at the map, too, you see that Holdrum and the "World of the Ocean King" (it's safe to asume that this is not the original name, as Hyrule was named the Great Sea when it was flood, so the o0ther lands would have been re-named, too) have connected, and they are on the verge of connecting with Hyrule, Labrynna, and the unnamed region 3 country.

Back before the flood or in the non-flood child timeline, when you were on high places (such as Snow Peak in Twilight Princess), you could clearly sea endless mountains, forests, ect., when looking beyond Hyrule and not the sea that was seen surrounding Hyrule in most of the games (A Link to the Past could be around the events of Zelda 1, where the countries are connecting again, but not quite together), showing that the non-flooded Hyrule was a huge nation with surrounding countries (based on Smertio's finding, these countries consist of the ones he mentioned in his geography thread).

So, The Wind Waker changed the timeline dramatically (Hyrule in this game is clearly in new Hyrule, as most games are, because it's not a huge, fully-fledged nation that is surrounded by connected countries, but an island slowly connecting again). Besides, Four Swords Adventures has the same geograhpy (mostly) as A Link to the Past and also prequels that game (ALTTP mentioned once having a thief problem in Kakariko... FSA saw the Link of this time dealing with a thief problem in that very same Kakariko, and the prequel that is FSA clearly showed that Hyrule was an Island (though, like I said, it grew and started to connect to other countries again come Zelda 1 and 2), meaning that is must come after The Wind Waker.

What he showed is the jigsaw puzzle of Hyrule's geography; he pretty much got the pieces and much them together, finding the truth: Original Hyrule is in OOT and TP, but the new Hyrule after the flood is seen in all of the other games (aside from LA, MM, OOX, and TWW/PH), with Zelda 2 introducing the third Hyrule that has now overtaken (and possibly invaded) Labrynna.

Then again, if you place the game that features Labrynna after Zelda 2, Labrynna would have been founded by the Hylian people when the evacted Hyrule 2 because of Ganon's ravage of the land as seen in Zelda 1. Hyrule is only mentioned in the Oracles, but not seen, so this official third Hyrule (if the Oracles are last, that is) could be anywhere.

Don't you find it odd? The very first two Zelda games, the first ones to introduce the legends, are heavily hinted to actually end the legend based on his (very belivable) timeline. People listen to the music and hear the very essence of Zelda's beginging, but the music for the first games always makes me think of the end of Zelda (the end of the adult timeline, where Hyrule is in its third incarnation, somewhere).

Originally Posted by Slagr

which is also why OoT may not be the SW anymore.

Meh, that's unrelated to this discussion, though.

wood survives ice way better than stone. Why do you think they put those cracks in sidewalks?

Frozen Hyrule was covered in snow; we don't see any of those structures in FSA, anyway.

always west of the castle though

According to... TMC's gridmap? That same gridmap places Cloud Tops as east of Veil Falls when we know that it is in fact directly overhead. I'll take the grid's placements with a grain of salt, thank you. You definitely access it from the west, but then again that's true of ALttP's Death Mountain also, isn't it?

darn those 2d graphical limitations!

I've seen plenty of 2D games with mountains in places besides the north. All it would take is having a separate "map" for the mountain (just like the dungeons have separate "maps").

but it's on the wrong side of both OoT and LttP's castles.

Again, TMC's gridmap isn't exactly the most reliable indicator of geography. In general cardinal placement isn't an issue to me; I look more at whether places themselves are designed to be the same rather than their location on the map. In the case of LoZ's and TMC's graveyards, I'm certain they're the same place, and as both of these are at the foot of the mountain (like FSA's and ALttP's), I see no reason to differentiate them from those games' graveyards either.

LttP and LoZ are pretty obviously the same place (see Smertios's thread) and if you're trying to prove tMC-LoZ with the graveyeard, then FSS-LttP must come after.

Hence my timeline being LoZ-TMC-FSA-ALttP?

OoS's map was based on LoZ, as was LttP's. It was just an example.

Which just goes to show how map layout isn't an indicator of geographical continuity, as it's basically the same in almost every game, set in Hyrule or outside it.

but I don't see how the similarities can be organized to definitively support your position.

The similarities themselves seem more explicit than, say, similarities between LoZ and ALttP. TMC evokes both of these games in rather specific ways (graveyards are the same, all the way down to them deliberately recycling the LoZ dungeon music and substituting LoZ's sound effects for the Royal Crypt; Link's house obviously based on his house in ALttP

Originally Posted by HDM

The reason no games will come after Zelda 1 is because Hyrule gets ravaged and destroyed by Ganon in this games

Well, the fact of the matter is that Hyrule should have been in decline prior to LoZ if a complete society has indeed been founded in the northern lands (which seems to be the case). In my opinion the flood better explains why the land seen in LoZ is so ravaged and in need of restoration. The "northern lands" would instead be the "new land" found by Link and Tetra (or their descendants) after TWW.

In my opinion this better explains the inclusion of these outer lands as part of the "Hyrule region" which is said to exist in both LoZ and ALttP.

Originally Posted by Horny Dog Matt

Miyamoto himself once stated that, with each new game, the timeline as we know it can have drastic changes. In this case, once The Wind Waker was released, things about whic Hyrule is which took a different path. That game clearly gave a full potential that the Hyrule in all games except for Ocarina of Time (there was no Twilight Princess back then, as you know) were in a new Hyrule after the great flood, a Hyrule that is sitting on a large island formed out of the smaller Great Sea Islands, with other large Islands around it that were Hyrules once-connected countries back in the Ocarina of Time era.

There was no "clear intent" to force every single game up to that point to move to a different continent. The only thing that is possible is the formation of a new land, NOT Hyrule, somewhere across the sea. The assertion that LttP Hyrule was built far, far away from OoT Hyrule while retaining nearly every detail of history and culture from the origin kingdom is quite honestly ridiculous.

I was amazed about what he mentioned and showed us the map about the World of the Ocean King islands forming into the large island (region, as he calls it) that we see located north-east of the ravaged second Hyrule during the events of Zelda 2. The World of the Ocean King, like the Great Sea (original Hyrule) was very likely once a large country, one that was connected to Hyrule and those two other lands (the Din and Nayru lands) and another unnamed one which, considering that the two other regions are assoited with a Hyrule goddess each, leaves the this 'reigion 3' very much likely to be Faroe's country (at least, before the flood).

Yes, the landmarks are the same. But like I said, both timelines exist in the same space. Just because the locations are similar does not mean they have to be on the same side of the split. See TP geography and WW island locations.

When you add what he said up, Region 1 is Hyrule (the second Hyrule after the land came together again and, on that map, focuses on the upper Death Mountain area), Region 2 above Region 1 (Hyrule) is Labrynna (the two countries are connected by land again), region 3 is another country which absolutely nothign is known about (the only one not seen in any other Zelda game), region 4 is the World of the Ocean King (which is now almost a full country again), and reigion 5 is Holdrum. When you look at the map, too, you see that Holdrum and the "World of the Ocean King" (it's safe to asume that this is not the original name, as Hyrule was named the Great Sea when it was flood, so the o0ther lands would have been re-named, too) have connected, and they are on the verge of connecting with Hyrule, Labrynna, and the unnamed region 3 country.

I know, I read it.

Back before the flood or in the non-flood child timeline, when you were on high places (such as Snow Peak in Twilight Princess), you could clearly sea endless mountains, forests, ect., when looking beyond Hyrule and not the sea that was seen surrounding Hyrule in most of the games (A Link to the Past could be around the events of Zelda 1, where the countries are connecting again, but not quite together), showing that the non-flooded Hyrule was a huge nation with surrounding countries (based on Smertio's finding, these countries consist of the ones he mentioned in his geography thread).

I'm not entirely certain what you're saying, but stand near the northern edge of LttP's Death Mountain and look at the expanse of trees below.

So, The Wind Waker changed the timeline dramatically (Hyrule in this game is clearly in new Hyrule, as most games are, because it's not a huge, fully-fledged nation that is surrounded by connected countries, but an island slowly connecting again). Besides, Four Swords Adventures has the same geograhpy (mostly) as A Link to the Past and also prequels that game (ALTTP mentioned once having a thief problem in Kakariko... FSA saw the Link of this time dealing with a thief problem in that very same Kakariko, and the prequel that is FSA clearly showed that Hyrule was an Island (though, like I said, it grew and started to connect to other countries again come Zelda 1 and 2), meaning that is must come after The Wind Waker.

FSA's background may or may not be meant to be taken literally. Even if it is post-flood based on the BG, see tMC's Beanstalk, Crenel and Veil BGs. From backgrounds alone, tMC is first.

What he showed is the jigsaw puzzle of Hyrule's geography; he pretty much got the pieces and much them together, finding the truth: Original Hyrule is in OOT and TP, but the new Hyrule after the flood is seen in all of the other games (aside from LA, MM, OOX, and TWW/PH), with Zelda 2 introducing the third Hyrule that has now overtaken (and possibly invaded) Labrynna.

I know, I read it.

Then again, if you place the game that features Labrynna after Zelda 2, Labrynna would have been founded by the Hylian people when the evacted Hyrule 2 because of Ganon's ravage of the land as seen in Zelda 1. Hyrule is only mentioned in the Oracles, but not seen, so this official third Hyrule (if the Oracles are last, that is) could be anywhere.

I take the Oracles' intro (TF teleportation) to imply time-travel.

Don't you find it odd? The very first two Zelda games, the first ones to introduce the legends, are heavily hinted to actually end the legend based on his (very believable) timeline. People listen to the music and hear the very essence of Zelda's beginging, but the music for the first games always makes me think of the end of Zelda (the end of the adult timeline, where Hyrule is in its third incarnation, somewhere).

I have LoZ/AoL at the end of my CT line, unless you count OoX and LA.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Meh, that's unrelated to this discussion, though.

but it nullified you argument, as was the goal. I don't want to start SW stuff here.

Frozen Hyrule was covered in snow; we don't see any of those structures in FSA, anyway.

Uh, it's ice. It's the Ice Temple. Also, if the map is completely canon (like the surrounding ocean) then the frozen area is clearly not snow. Plus, it's elevated by the ice, so the structures lie underneath.

According to... TMC's gridmap? That same gridmap places Cloud Tops as east of Veil Falls when we know that it is in fact directly overhead. I'll take the grid's placements with a grain of salt, thank you. You definitely access it from the west, but then again that's true of ALttP's Death Mountain also, isn't it?

Then no conclusions can be made about tMC's geography? If west doesn't even mean west anymore, then how can you make any conclusions based on Lake Hylia's relative location?

Again, TMC's gridmap isn't exactly the most reliable indicator of geography. In general cardinal placement isn't an issue to me; I look more at whether places themselves are designed to be the same rather than their location on the map. In the case of LoZ's and TMC's graveyards, I'm certain they're the same place, and as both of these are at the foot of the mountain (like FSA's and ALttP's), I see no reason to differentiate them from those games' graveyards either.

I don't even... that would make LoZ level 6 tMC's castle, which moves to Gnarled Root before LttP, and Crenel (which you say is DM correct?) wouldn't even be on LoZ's map.

Hence my timeline being LoZ-TMC-FSA-ALttP?

Give a good explanation of how Hyrule castle is built in a lake and jumps across the map, and why they would even rebuild in LoZ Hyrule when AoL's kingdom is perfectly good.

Which just goes to show how map layout isn't an indicator of geographical continuity, as it's basically the same in almost every game, set in Hyrule or outside it.

basically, yes. But logical arcs can be built by geography with the assumption they are the same place or not in the first place.

The similarities themselves seem more explicit than, say, similarities between LoZ and ALttP. TMC evokes both of these games in rather specific ways (graveyards are the same, all the way down to them deliberately recycling the LoZ dungeon music and substituting LoZ's sound effects for the Royal Crypt; Link's house obviously based on his house in ALttP

are you kidding me? LttP and LoZ have the same map. There is nary a difference, whereas tMC and LoZ are very different. And as for Link's house in tMC and LttP, that could be one of those re-used themes from LttP like Aonuma said he was going to do. If it is canon, then so is TP's MS location (in the woods) in referece to LttP.

Well, the fact of the matter is that Hyrule should have been in decline prior to LoZ if a complete society has indeed been founded in the northern lands (which seems to be the case). In my opinion the flood better explains why the land seen in LoZ is so ravaged and in need of restoration. The "northern lands" would instead be the "new land" found by Link and Tetra (or their descendants) after TWW.

I could swear is says somewhere that the land was destroyed by Ganon... but i have no clue where.

In my opinion this better explains the inclusion of these outer lands as part of the "Hyrule region" which is said to exist in both LoZ and ALttP.

It gives no explanation, however, of why Hyrule's civilization is rebuilt in the south when the north is perfectly fine.

Minish Cap is a very awkward place in the Zelda timeline, so I often switch off and on between it being the first game of the original Hyrule, and it being the first game of the new new Hyrule.

Minish Cap does, however, have many similarities that place is shortly after the great flood: the shield design of this era, the appearance of things in general, its position as being on an island area, ect..

The original of the green cap could have clearly come from the Hero of Time, the first hero, wearing it when saving the original Hyrule, as it is seen to go down in history about the "hero clothed in green" in The Wind Waker, so it was that hero that caused the green cap tradtion in the adult time. The child timeline, which I now believes only has Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, has Link wearing a green cap because the actual Hero of Time's clothes were passed on to him.

Another thing that places Minish Cap shortly after the founding of new Hyrule is the "toon" style of dressing for several games in a row: it starts with TWW/PH Link, then goes on to be continued by the MC, and FS/FSA Links.

The tradition of the yellow Hero's Shield was first used in The Wind Waker, then went on to continue being used until after the Minish Cap, where Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures and A Link to the Past started changing the typical shield design again.

The reason Zelda 1 and 2 cannot take place on the child timeline is simple: why are the towns located in the new northern Hyrule all named after the awakened sages that were only awaoken on the adult timeline? The names of those same sages were seen to go down in history on the adult timeline, explaining their name-after use when Hyrule, now the third one, was moved north because of Ganon's of the second Hyrule.

And games that all have strong geograhy similarites and are all islands are: Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, A Link to the Past (possibly semi-island), The Legend of Zelda (semi-island), and the Adventure of Link (semi-island).

Semi-island, at that point in the timeline, would be refering to Hyrule, as stated, stringing back up with the other countries (now large islands, just as Hyrule's sitation) again because the land is still raising.

Nintendo and Miyamato have been [i]working on the official timeline[i] for quite so years now at the same time as making new Zelda games; that is when I noticed that these connections that Smerthio made cannot just be conincidence. The creators have a timeline, so they are thinking about the geography in each game now, and they chose to make Hyrule and expanding island in most games, where they included the Deku Tree qoute of tree life being the samller islans together to form a new large island for Hyrule to become full again, which actually is seen to happen.

Spirit Tracks was confirmed to come 100 years after Wind Waker, likely placing it as the first game in the new Hyrule (I could have swore I saw a shore area in the trailer, meaning it will be a large island). The fact that it will be the first game in new Hyrule and have many similarities to The Wind Waker (just like Minish Cap, the current first new Hyrule game, does) and that Link will know/meet Zelda in this game may very well explain why they are childhood friends and know each other in the Minish Cap; Spirit Tracks would be set before Minish Cap and feature the same Link and Zelda, officially placing it in new Hyrule and, therefore, FS/FSA and ALTTP and the first two Zeldas simply have to follow (like I said, FS and FSA are seen to officially come after Minish Cap and also before A Link to the Past, especially becase of the identical geography and tha fact that ALTTP's Kakariko theif problem was seen in FSA and mentiond as "there was a time when this village had a thief problem" in ALTTP.)

Anyways, Spirit Tracks, like some are saying, will be the angel to all timeline theorists, as it is, without a doubt, the first game in the definate new Hyrule. If you see the names Mt. Crenel and Veil Falls popping up in this game, well, there you have it! I theorize that new Hyrule had things named differently in its early years, and they were re-named back to the old Hyrule names by Four Swords and its following games (FSA, ALTTP, LOZ, but AOL in north and in yet, with irony, another new Hyrule); however, Spirit Trakcs would just as easily be set after Minish Cap and feature the same Link and Zelda from those games. Actually, when I look back at his (the Smerthio guy) map, it shows that the locations of Death Mountain were acutally not shows in Minish Cap; they were located further north on that map. Minish Cap's map, as he showed when comparing to ht eothers, is focused a further south of Hyrule and a little further to the east, so the more north area of Death Mountain and west area of the dessert were not seen in that game (look at the maps; his markings show that Minish Cap literally focused more south-east of island Hyrule than the other games, so there is a Death Mountain in that games (its north of the castle, but can be accessed in this game).