Debate over SW

Yes it's me again, with my naive newbie questions .

So... Now, currently in development of my Totally Awesome and Indisputable Timeline (TM), I wonder where-oh-where the Seal War goes. Is it during OoT? Is it pre OoT? Wasn't there a war over the TriForce before OoT? Where do you think the SW goes?

Originally Posted by TheLastRito

Yes it's me again, with my naive newbie questions .

So... Now, currently in development of my Totally Awesome and Indisputable Timeline (TM), I wonder where-oh-where the Seal War goes. Is it during OoT? Is it pre OoT? Wasn't there a war over the TriForce before OoT? Where do you think the SW goes?

Almost all evidence points towards OoT being the Seal War. Are there some inconsistencies? Certainly. But there are less inconsistencies with this placement than with any other, I believe. For one, we have director quotes that specifically state that OoT was developed as the Seal War. Although I am a major believer in in-game canon>developer intent, that intent cannot be ignored, especially if there is no contradicting evidence in said game. For two, the backstory described in the ALttP manual matches up pretty well with the events of OoT.

If you were to place the Seal War in any other place than OoT, I would say FSA is the way to go. I myself once believed that was the Seal War. One thing is for certain. The Seal War cannot be pre-OoT. The ALttP backstory specifically mentions that the Sacred Realm was opened and Ganon got the Triforce. OoT specifically states (I can't think of the exact quote now, but I can find it if you want) that Link opening the Door of Time and grabbing the Master Sword was the first time the Sacred Realm was ever opened. Thus, the Seal War can't be pre-OoT.

I'm going to be as non-biased as possible when I answer this question because I'm SO EFFING TIRED of SW debates.

It can be either:

1. OoT
2. Right before ALttP
3. The great war which occurs before OoT.

Originally Posted by Aralith

stuff

b**** is back

Oh by the way, it's not impossible that the Twili found and entered the SR prior to OoT... just saying.

The IW is the backstory of ALTTP nothing else.

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

b**** is back

Damn straight.

Oh by the way, it's not impossible that the Twili found and entered the SR prior to OoT... just saying.

Please clarify. Wherever you place the Seal War, we know OoT was the first time the Sacred Realm was opened. Or at any rate, that people know of. How could the Twili have done this without anyone noticing?

^ We know that they tried to establish dominoon over the SR. And to do that, I'm just assuming they'd have to find it first... from a logical POW, I'd say chances are somewhat high the Twili got to it. OoT never states that nobody entered the SR prior to the game, but it's heavily implied... since TP came out after OoT, well we don't know. Unfortunately TP doesn't answer any questions on the matter :/

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

Oh by the way, it's not impossible that the Twili found and entered the SR prior to OoT... just saying.

The SR wasn't a separate realm from hyrule, at the time when the twilli try to stablish dominion over the SR, the SR was a accesible area in hyrule, since the interlopers event, the sages created the temple of time and sealed the SR in another dimension.

Is very likely that the twilli find the SR, but is very important clarify that they don't get the triforce.

LANAYRU:
Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared.
Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred
Realm.

MIDNA:
They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and driven into another realm by the goddesses

The sacred lands of hyrule could be the sacred realm.

Oh god...

My opinions: TWW completely broke the OoT-LttP connection (unless you go with something like quick silver's timeline...) and ignoring the implications of the entire game and intent is just completely wrong, imo.

Past that... I'm not sure what to believe.

@Aralith: You can take the great war and OoT as one great event. It's the great war starting with the bloodshed amongst the people and ending with the sealing of Ganon in OoT.

Such is my take on it anyways...

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

^ We know that they tried to establish dominoon over the SR. And to do that, I'm just assuming they'd have to find it first... from a logical POW, I'd say chances are somewhat high the Twili got to it.

TP seems to pretty obviously be referencing ALttP with its stories of people trying to take over the sacred land after word spreads, and in ALttP's rivalry stories no one ever found the Sacred Realm before Ganondorf.

Originally Posted by Som

My opinions: TWW completely broke the OoT-LttP connection (unless you go with something like quick silver's timeline...) and ignoring the implications of the entire game and intent is just completely wrong, imo.

What OoT-ALttP connection?

-When Ganon "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm in ALttP, its location had been completely forgotten, even to those chosen to know it; in OoT its location is well-known to the royal family
-Ganon in ALttP was "unable to return to the light world" after entering the Sacred Realm; Ganon in OoT returned to Hyrule and conquered it, ruling for seven years before he was sealed
-In ALttP Ganon successfully captured the full Triforce and made a wish to rule the world; Ganon never got the entire Triforce and made a wish in OoT, and his escape and second bid at doing so didn't wind up with him getting it or being put back in the Dark World

The only OoT-ALttP connection was that OoT told the story of the Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages. And it's still undeniably true that that's what the creators intended and that they haven't done anything to replace that intent.

The game makes it clear enough, imo, that he hasn't left the DW since.

I see no reason to go against the implications of the whole game.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The only OoT-ALttP connection was that OoT told the story of the Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages. And it's still undeniably true that that's what the creators intended

11 Years ago. New, critical games have come out since then, which is a major issue for theorizing.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and that they haven't done anything to replace that intent.

While I could start a discussion about The Wind Waker for the hundredth time, I'll instead just mention that Nintendo tried to make Four Swords Adventures the Imprisoning War, with Miyamoto only stepping in at the Eleventh Hour. Even then, Miyamoto didn't want things changed because he disliked like the story; he just thought that the story in general was overshadowing the gameplay.

To TheLastRito:

There have been tons of Imprisoning War threads on ZU, with a good deal of them being recent. You could probably just search through the first three to five pages of the Theorizing section and find eight of them.

Originally Posted by Som

The game makes it clear enough, imo, that he hasn't left the DW since.

So I would think we would conclude that OoT (and its sequels) change the intent of ALttP, not that TWW changes the intent of OoT. That's just me, though.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

11 Years ago. New, critical games have come out since then, which is a major issue for theorizing.

Here's the thing, though

-these "new, critical games" all make breakthroughs that deeply affect how we must view the significance of ALttP's backstory, but none of them overwrite anything we see or hear about in OoT. The only thing they overwrite is the type of connection people envisioned between OoT and ALttP. It's funny that the theorists who were unable to accept that their ideas about the connection were not what the developers had in mind then decide that the developers' stated ideas have simply changed, thus "permitting" them to keep that connection intact.

So I would think we would conclude that OoT (and its sequels) change the intent of ALttP, not that TWW changes the intent of OoT. That's just me, though.

Really? How does OoT change the implication here: "Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule..."?

Originally Posted by Som

Really? How does OoT change the implication here: "Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule..."?

I already gave three examples of how OoT=IW ought to affect how we view the IW's relationship to ALttP.

-When Ganon "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm in ALttP, its location had been completely forgotten, even to those chosen to know it; in OoT its location is well-known to the royal family
-Ganon in ALttP was "unable to return to the light world" after entering the Sacred Realm; Ganon in OoT returned to Hyrule and conquered it, ruling for seven years before he was sealed
-In ALttP Ganon successfully captured the full Triforce and made a wish to rule the world; Ganon never got the entire Triforce and made a wish in OoT, and his escape and second bid at doing so didn't wind up with him getting it or being put back in the Dark World

Either these were retcons of ALttP's original story (in other words, that none of these things were in fact true at all anymore as of OoT's release), OoT purposely left room for sequel(s), or the developers really didn't consider OoT to be the IW. Since we know the latter was not true, and have no real indication that the first is true, and the second has definitely come true, I'm not inclined to think that OoT being the IW ever meant it was bound as ALttP's direct prequel, and that there was always room for midquels.

I already gave three examples of how OoT=IW ought to affect how we view the IW's relationship to ALttP.

Umm... no you didn't. It talks about the land of Hyrule surrounded by forests and mountains when referring to the Seal War. The land you live in is Hyrule... and it's surrounded by forests and mountains. OoT didn't change that, TWW did.

I'm not inclined to think that OoT being the IW ever meant it was bound as ALttP's direct prequel, and that there was always room for midquels.

I disagree about that, I can agree that games going in the middle was possible, but games that destroy the old Hyrule and give no indication of there being a new identical Hyrule between them is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

-these "new, critical games" all make breakthroughs that deeply affect how we must view the significance of ALttP's backstory, but none of them overwrite anything we see or hear about in OoT.

I have to say this again.

In The Wind Waker knowledge of the old world is basically dead. Very few things remain and even they are fading while also being treated as mere tales by the populace. The ending even has King Daphnes erasing Hyrule (Japanese text) with the whole theme of the game being to move on and let go of the past. Both the land and its memory are dead/mostly dead/dying in TWW. ALttP's chances on the Adult Timeline are greatly crippled by this.

Also, things in OoT had problems with matching up to ALttP as well; for instance, the ALttP Maidens were all humans from a literal bloodline, whereas three of the OoT Sages weren't human. Another thing is that the Hylian Knights never worked with the Sages in OoT.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

then decide that the developers' stated ideas have simply changed, thus "permitting" them to keep that connection intact.

Lex, Nintendo tried to make Four Swords Adventures the Imprisoning War. That's a definite sign that they're not focused on sticking to their old IW ideas.

Originally Posted by Som

Umm... no you didn't.

Did you not see me cite them?

I disagree about that, I can agree that games going in the middle was possible, but games that destroy the old Hyrule and give no indication of there being a new identical Hyrule between them is ridiculous.

And I would say that games that show an alternate history to the Sages' seal being prequels to the game that follows the casting of the Sages' seal is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

In The Wind Waker knowledge of the old world is basically dead. Very few things remain and even they are fading while also being treated as mere tales by the populace.

People know about the hero, the Master Sword, and the Triforce, and knowledge about the royal family and the sages resurfaces over the course of the game. Not only this, but another hero appears and uses the Master Sword, and the Triforce is directly involved in the events of the game. The royal family retained its sacred duties regardless, and the sages that we see in TWW, while not explicitly labeled as such, still had their own priestly roles as well. Not only that, but the sage "bloodlines" in that game are shown to in fact be basic priestly successions, not a literal blood-line per se.

The idea of "fading" stories is not really all that inconsistent with ALttP; the stories we see are suggested to have been diluted over time, almost all of them treated as hearsay, circulating mostly (if not exclusively) around the Sage descendants (like how the hero story circulated around the hero cult on Outset). Besides, how many people know that much about things like the Triforce in ALttP anyway? (Absolutely no one in Hyrule ever mentions it by name.)

But here goes the same argument we've had forever and ever.

Lex, Nintendo tried to make Four Swords Adventures the Imprisoning War. That's a definite sign that they're not focused on sticking to their old IW ideas.

1) This is not confirmed. All that we know is that even more elements closely tied to ALttP were supposed to be featured in the game. The final game wound up having tons of ALttP elements anyway, so all we know is that the game was very similar to ALttP.
2) Even if it was confirmed that this was the case, it wasn't what wound up happening, so discussing it is pointless. TP was supposed to be a TWW prequel, according to interviews, so should I examine TP's references to other games in that context?

Did you not see me cite them?

I meant you never replied about the Hyrule quote.

Damn you're really good at avoiding the entire point of what I'm talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if you even didn't respond to the Hyrule in the SW being the same as the one in LttP.