Debate over SW

Originally Posted by Som

I meant you never replied about the Hyrule quote.

You responded to a long list of examples of what would be inconsistencies between OoT and ALttP if there was a direct connection with a more-or-less unrelated query about Hyrule being surrounded by mountains and forests. Was I supposed to consider it a counterargument?

Hyrule is shown to be surrounded by mountains and forests- in Twilight Princess. The world map shows mountains surrounding all of Hyrule's borders. This is consistent with the depiction seen in OoT, yet not with that seen in FSA. (Despite the story writer, the primary person responsible for storyline connections, for both FSA and TP being the same.)

Damn you're really good at avoiding the entire point of what I'm talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if you even didn't respond to the Hyrule in the SW being the same as the one in LttP.

There are legends that darkness spread across Hyrule in the IW.
If "Hyrule" now occupies new territory, that would not invalidate these legends.

Obviously there was no reason for there to be a new Hyrule when ALttP was made, so why would its story reflect it?

Hyrule is shown to be surrounded by mountains and forests- in Twilight Princess. The world map shows mountains surrounding all of Hyrule's borders. This is consistent with the depiction seen in OoT, yet not with that seen in FSA. (Despite the story writer, the primary person responsible for storyline connections, for both FSA and TP being the same.)

...What are you talking about? You're missing my point completely (how... I don't know...). The Hyrule mentioned in the SW is clearly the same one as the one from LttP.

Obviously there was no reason for there to be a new Hyrule when ALttP was made, so why would its story reflect it?

Of course not. Same with when OoT came out.

But when TWW came out to believe OoT is still the SW then that means that the intent in the beginning of LttP (well actually the entire game of LttP, but the Hyrule example is the clearest) has to be thrown out completely. Which is what I have a problem with.

Originally Posted by Som

...What are you talking about? You're missing my point completely (how... I don't know...). The Hyrule mentioned in the SW is clearly the same one as the one from LttP.

I don't see why you'd bring up Hyrule being surrounded by mountains and forests in the intro as proof for that conclusion. All it proves is that the events of the intro took place "long ago in Hyrule, a land surrounded by mountains and forests." If through an event not talked about in ALttP Hyrule was no longer the "land surrounded by mountains and forests," which is what I'm arguing has been the case since TWW and demonstrated in FSA, this would prove... nothing.

But when TWW came out to believe OoT is still the SW then that means that the intent in the beginning of LttP (well actually the entire game of LttP, but the Hyrule example is the clearest) has to be thrown out completely. Which is what I have a problem with.

All I have to throw out is the idea that there was a direct relationship between the IW and ALttP when OoT was made, which in retrospect seems to have been a pretty stupid conclusion for people to make based on OoT's version of events not really setting up for ALttP's Triforce wish plotline.

My problem is that you throw out the intent of OoT to be the IW, the intent of the IW to take place while the Triforce was still in the Sacred Realm after creation, and the intent for Hyrule not to be "surrounded by mountains and forests" as ALttP describes the IW-era Hyrule.

I don't see why you'd bring up Hyrule being surrounded by mountains and forests in the intro as proof for that conclusion.

Because I'm not...

All it proves is that the events of the intro took place "long ago in Hyrule, a land surrounded by mountains and forests."

I guess it's just plain irony that LttP takes place in a land called Hyrule, too, and gives no indication that the two Hyrules are different.

All I have to throw out is the direct relationship between OoT and ALttP, which you do anyway.

Oh and the fact that people are remembering the story completely differently, and that they take place on completely different Hyrules now which is pure fanfic.

My problem is that you throw out the intent of OoT to be the IW

It's been overwritten by TWW.

and the intent for Hyrule not to be "surrounded by mountains and forests" as ALttP describes the IW-era Hyrule.

In a CT LttP the SW would take place in a land surrounded by forests and mountains. And OH MY GOD it can take place in the same Hyrule too as the entire story says it did.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

People know about the hero,

Barely, and that knowledge is dying out. Outset's traditions are also dying, since they've degraded to just wearing a green tunic for one day upon reaching age twelve. Orca is the only person on the entire island who cares about fighting anymore, and he and his brother are the only ones who even knew about fighting in the first place.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the Master Sword,

Only as the blade the hero used, and Tetra is the only person to recognize it in the entire game. To add on to that, she probably only recognized it because she has a picture of the Hero of Time holding the blade in her room (at least, that's what I remember; I'm busy so I'll check in a bit).

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and the Triforce,

Pretty much nobody knows about the Triforce on the Great Sea. The only ones who really mention it are one guy with a telescope and around three Fishmen, all of them calling it the Triumph Forks. One Fishman says that at least one person mentioned the Triforce, but that leaves only one person on the entire ocean who has any clue, and if they're talking to Fishmen they aren't exactly normal anyway.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and knowledge about the royal family and the sages resurfaces over the course of the game.

Not really. All Tetra is told is that she is part of the Royal Family (something her family forgot) and she apparently prefers to be her pirate self, judging from Phantom Hourglass. Furthermore, only Medli and Makar learn of their Sage roles, and they apparently no longer have to perform them after Hyrule's annihilation, seeing as how they're on the pirate ship in the ending.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Not only this, but another hero appears and uses the Master Sword,

Only Daphnes, Tetra, and Link himself are aware that Link actually becomes a chosen hero, and nobody notices the Master Sword save for Tetra, who instantly doubts it anyway. The populace of the Great Sea is largely ignorant of what Link does in TWW.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and the Triforce is directly involved in the events of the game.

Yet only Link, Daphnes, and Tetra truly know that. The populace of the Great Sea, as I mentioned, is basically in the dark.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The royal family retained its sacred duties regardless,

The Royal Family forgot that it was a Royal Family in the first place, and seeing as how Tetra's royal appearance vanishes upon returning to the surface, it would appear that whatever ties that bound her to fate had vanished after Daphnes' wish.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and the sages that we see in TWW, while not explicitly labeled as such, still had their own priestly roles as well.

They had to play instruments on the far ends of the Great Sea and apparently no longer needed to do that after Daphnes' wish. Their roles regarding Valoo and the Deku Tree had nothing to do with Sage duties.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Not only that, but the sage "bloodlines" in that game are shown to in fact be basic priestly successions, not a literal blood-line per se.

Yet ALttP shows that the Maidens (and even characters like Sahasrahla) are literally descended from the IW Sages.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The idea of "fading" stories is not really all that inconsistent with ALttP;

The stories are already forgotten and basically dead by the time of TWW. It's very infeasible for them to last long enough for the small islands of the Great Sea to form a whole new country.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the stories we see are suggested to have been diluted over time,

The stories in TWW are on life-support by the time of TWW. Again, for them to last long enough for the small islands of the Great Sea to form a whole new country is very infeasible.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

almost all of them treated as hearsay, circulating mostly (if not exclusively) around the Sage descendants (like how the hero story circulated around the hero cult on Outset).

Not a single story in TWW tells of the Sage descendants though, and for the minor tale of the Sage descendants to be well-known in a new Hyrule while the Legend of the Hero is dead is even more infeasible.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Besides, how many people know that much about things like the Triforce in ALttP anyway? (Absolutely no one in Hyrule ever mentions it by name.)

They all know exactly what it does though and people even abandon everything to search for it by the time of ALttP. One character does call it the Triforce as well, though he is in the Dark World and next to the Palace of Darkness.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

But here goes the same argument we've had forever and ever.

I too would like it to end here.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

1) This is not confirmed. All that we know is that even more elements closely tied to ALttP were supposed to be featured in the game.

Between what was left in the game and the removed text found on the disc, all of the necessary elements for the Imprisoning War were there. It's quite clear that FSA was going to be the IW.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

2) Even if it was confirmed that this was the case, it wasn't what wound up happening, so discussing it is pointless.

Discussing it is not pointless. It shows that Nintendo does not really care about their old OoT-IW connection any more.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

TP was supposed to be a TWW prequel, according to interviews, so should I examine TP's references to other games in that context?

TP was not drastically changed like FSA was at the Eleventh Hour. Furthermore, trying to use that angle still does not aid post-WW placements. If anything, it'd make the people of Hyrule seem even more forgetful of the past, dooming game placements after TWW even harder.

The main problem I have with OoT even being considered as the SW is that Link isn't in the SW story. The sages search all over to the Master Sword, and have forgotten where it was hidden (In OoT, it's right smack dab in the middle of Hyrule Castle Town). Not only can they not find it, but neither can they find a hero worthy of it, prompting the Knights to win their pyrrhic victory over Ganon and be almost wiped out in the process. It's something like the TWW backstory, a story that cannot be told in any particular game because Link isn't in it. Although, judging from the deleted text in FSA, the Master Sword would have shown up, but Link wouldn't have been able to wield it, setting it up perfectly as the Seal War.

Originally Posted by Som

I guess it's just plain irony that LttP takes place in a land called Hyrule, too, and gives no indication that the two Hyrules are different.

1) ALttP was made in 1991. Any ideas of a New Hyrule didn't exist until 2003.

2) ALttP itself states that the Hylians spread to all parts of the world, and LoZ shows that the "Hyrule region" extends to other lands outside of the original kingdom's hub. In ALttP's manual, Hyrule is referred to as a "region," using the same term used in LoZ.

Oh and the fact that people are remembering the story completely differently

"These events were obscured by the mists of time, and became legend." The Japanese implies this through the style of writing used, and the English outright states it.

and that they take place on completely different Hyrules now which is pure fanfic.

If TWW is the OoT sequel that needed to come between OoT and ALttP, then it's not fanfic, just a necessarily consequence of TWW's existence. Plenty of people think that a New Hyrule is not only fanfic but a legitimate plot device.

It's been overwritten by TWW. In a CT LttP the SW would take place in a land surrounded by forests and mountains. And OH MY GOD it can take place in the same Hyrule too as the entire story says it did.

The SW taking place in the CT was never a fact, and TP interrupts such a thing from taking place without the meaning of the story being significantly changed also.

1) ALttP was made in 1991. Any ideas of a New Hyrule didn't exist until 2003.

Wasn't it you who said EARLIER IN THIS VERY DEBATE: "So I would think we would conclude that OoT (and its sequels) change the intent of ALttP, not that TWW changes the intent of OoT. That's just me, though." Hyrule being destroyed is a pretty big intent changer.

2) ALttP itself states that the Hylians spread to all parts of the world, and LoZ shows that the "Hyrule region" extends to other lands outside of the original kingdom's hub. In ALttP's manual, Hyrule is referred to as a "region," using the same term used in LoZ.

Your precious GBA manual says nothing about that. Therefore you should believe that it doesn't matter to the creators anymore because it was taken out in the GBA manual. Or are you just changing your views on canon for every debate?

And... so? If the game talks about and old Hyrule from the SW, a Ganon who touched the Triforce and got sealed in the SW, then a Hyrule that exists now with a Ganon with the Triforce and being sealed in the SR... what are we supposed to think here? That there's a damn flood between them and that the Hyrule mentioned is COMPLETELY different and they are remembering the Seal War completely differently? Or that the Ganon with the Triforce and no backstory in the game except for having the Triforce, being stuck in a seal, and creating the Dark World which was sealed in the SW is different from the Ganon in the backstory who touched the Triforce and got sealed in the SW. Is that what you're saying we should believe?

"These events were obscured by the mists of time, and became legend." The Japanese implies this through the style of writing used, and the English outright states it.

Then tell me, how are people remembering the story in GREATER detail from a COMPLETELY different point of view after TWW? Oh since you've changed your views on the SNES manual for this debate, the mists of time quote is never used in the SNES manual; because it clearly is shown in a more third person omniscient point of view.

If TWW is the OoT sequel that needed to come between OoT and ALttP, then it's not fanfic, just a necessarily consequence of TWW's existence. Plenty of people think that a New Hyrule is not only fanfic but a legitimate plot device.

So are you saying that TWW changed things about the OoT being the SW intent?

The SW taking place in the CT was never a fact, and TP interrupts such a thing from taking place without the meaning of the story being significantly changed also.

Atleast it can be the same Hyrule, Ganon, Dark World, Triforce, and... well... war, amirite? The only things it does contradict is a 1998 quote from Miyamoto (AT SW contradicts a quote from Miyamoto showing that the LttP Ganon and the OoT Ganon are the same), Ganon becoming the King of Evil (which doesn't happen in the GBA manual. Just noting that), and that the Triforce has been in the SR since creation (which is just an implication and with the GBA manual it just requires that people be searching for the SR eventually. I'll agree it's still an implication, but not as big implications as the other, even more clear, implications about Ganon, the Triforce, the Dark World, and Hyrule).

Something to note about the GBA manual. "As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.", "(next quote) However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year." Am I supposed to believe that the Hyrule mentioned in the first quote I showed is COMPLETELY different from the quote following it? There's only one real thing I can say to that... lol

Originally Posted by Som

Wasn't it you who said EARLIER IN THIS VERY DEBATE: "So I would think we would conclude that OoT (and its sequels) change the intent of ALttP, not that TWW changes the intent of OoT. That's just me, though." Hyrule being destroyed is a pretty big intent changer.

I said that OoT and its sequels change the intent of ALttP by contradicting its original story, but that no game made since OoT has contradicted OoT's story. People say TWW contradicts the intent that OoT is supposed to be ALttP's direct prequel; my quarrel with that is that OoT could never be ALttP's direct prequel without significantly retconning ALttP anyway (so the introduction of further retcons doesn't really "demolish" ALttP any more than OoT itself would have if this were the case).

Your precious GBA manual says nothing about that. Therefore you should believe that it doesn't matter to the creators anymore because it was taken out in the GBA manual. Or are you just changing your views on canon for every debate?

My views on the GBA manual is that it trimmed out the parts covered in other games and reduced the ALttP story to the bare-bones story of the Sages' seal.

Since Ganondorf's involvement was covered in OoT, we hear nothing of that, and since the history of the Hylians spreading to all parts of the world is covered in TWW, we hear nothing of that.

Are you just fishing for ad hominems?

The game also talks about the gods creating the Triforce and leaving it behind in the Sacred Realm and people hunting for the "place that hid the gold." What are we supposed to think? Are we supposed to think that the gods gave the Triforce to the chosen ones but later put it back in its resting place just so this story can happen the way it is described? Either way we must consider that the original intent of ALttP's backstory as a standalone story of Hyrule's history up to that game has been violated or complicated by future games.

The differences in theories are based on what theorists think has changed in ALttP. Some of us think that the history now centers around OoT, with a long gap and many games between the seal and aLttP; some of us think that it still centers around ALttP, with a long gap and many games between the creation and the infiltration of the Sacred Realm by Ganondorf. We each have evidence on our side for why our side is better.

It's patently ridiculous to think ALttP's original story is exactly the same anyway, even you acknowledge this. It's also patently ridiculous to think it's uninterrupted by other games, namely TP and TWW, which both complicate the backstory immensely in some form of fashion. But both games offer possible outs and give possible explanations for how the series could continue afterwards.

Then tell me, how are people remembering the story in GREATER detail from a COMPLETELY different point of view after TWW?

They're not remembering it in greater detail. The story in ALttP is "there was once a legend of a golden power, people sought it, but darkness came from the realm where it rested; seven sages sealed the realm away." The story in TWW is "there was once a legend of a golden power, an evil man took it and spread darkness; a hero traveled through time to seal the dark one away." Same level of detail; focus on entirely different details. Makes sense, since the legend in TWW belongs to the hero cult on Outset and talks about the herr, and the one in ALttP belongs to the descendants of the Seven Sages and talks about the sages.

Oh since you've changed your views on the SNES manual for this debate, the mists of time quote is never used in the SNES manual; because it clearly is shown in a more third person omniscient point of view. So are you saying that TWW changed things about the OoT being the SW intent? Atleast it can be the same Hyrule, Ganon, Dark World, Triforce, and... well... war, amirite?

Why can't it be the same war? Nothing about OoT's relationship to the IW story changed in TWW; only the presumed relationship between OoT and ALttP as a result of that association. That presumption was wrong; so why can't the people who made it accept that their presumptions about the IW's current intent just might possibly be wrong also? They, after all, have no creator quotes on their side, no in-game quotes to put the Triforce back in the Sacred Realm*, and argue for a closed interpretation of a series storyline that traditionally has been very vague and open for games to interrelate.

*There are plenty of quotes that theorists can use to demonstrate the suggestion of a new Hyrule after TWW, but zero that suggest the Triforce goes back to the Sacred Realm after TP.

The only things it does contradict is a 1998 quote from Miyamoto (AT SW contradicts a quote from Miyamoto showing that the LttP Ganon and the OoT Ganon are the same)

Nintendo has stated that all Ganons are the same.

Ganon becoming the King of Evil (which doesn't happen in the GBA manual. Just noting that)

Because it happens in OoT and doesn't need to be covered in the GBA manual, since future games introduced a new Ganon[dorf] who didn't originate in OoT [in FSA].

and that the Triforce has been in the SR since creation (which is just an implication and with the GBA manual it just requires that people be searching for the SR eventually. I'll agree it's still an implication, but not as big implications as the other, even more clear, implications about Ganon, the Triforce, the Dark World, and Hyrule).

So the implications for a seamless progression between the creation and the IW don't matter (despite OoT portraying it and TP reinforcing it), but the ones for a seamless progressions between the Sages' seal and ALttP do (despite the games released since ALttP contradicting such a clean progression)?

Something to note about the GBA manual. "As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.", "(next quote) However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year." Am I supposed to believe that the Hyrule mentioned in the first quote I showed is COMPLETELY different from the quote following it? There's only one real thing I can say to that... lol

Same applies to the Sacred Realm.

Am I supposed to believe that the gods left it there when they created the world, and that it was taken out, used by chosen ones, and then later restored there exactly like it was despite zero implication of this in any canon source? At least I have proof that Ganon left the Sacred Realm after OoT (contradicting those who said the timeline was OoT-ALttP), and that another scenario involving the Dark World cropped up in a different game (FSA).

In the end, the two schisms are based on the dichotomy of solutions to problems ALttP faces if put in a modern timeline:

Problem: The Hyrule of OoT is destroyed in TWW, yet ALttP takes place in Hyrule.
Solution 1: ALttP takes place in the Child Timeline, where TWW never happens.
Solution 2: The "new country" destined for the Adult Timeline will be the "next Hyrule," and ALttP takes place there.

Problem: Ganon breaks out of the Sages' seal from OoT in TWW, but in ALttP he is trapped in the Dark World.
Solution 1: The Sages' seal is cast in a separate event from OoT.
Solution 2: Ganon in ALttP gets trapped in the Dark World in a separate event from the casting of the Sages' seal.

Problem: The Triforce was in the Sacred Realm in the Sages' seal story, with the creation as a backdrop, but ALttP takes place after other games that feature people using the Triforce.
Solution 1: This feature of ALttP's backstory is obsolete, and the creation is no longer the backdrop for the Sages' seal story.
Solution 2: The Sages' seal story is in fact OoT, the first game that features people using the Triforce.

My question to you is for how many of these questions do we have viable proof for solution 1, and for how many do we have proof for solution 2? Moreover, for how many of these questions is solution 1 simply a fan's way of reconciling a disagreement with solution 2? I can provide evidence for solution 2 for all three of these questions. That's not to say that solution 1 is bad- just that I don't think it's the only solution, and I certainly don't think it's one that most fans will come to unless they're hardcore theorists who don't think any existing games come after TWW and PH.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Since Ganondorf's involvement was covered in OoT, we hear nothing of that, and since the history of the Hylians spreading to all parts of the world is covered in TWW, we hear nothing of that.

You've never really said something like that before. You mainly just acted like the GBA manual overwrote the SNES manual in general. Also, if I recall correctly, the people of TWW usually stayed within the Great Sea. If anything, other people (Zunari) came to them.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Solution 2: The "new country" destined for the Adult Timeline will be the "next Hyrule,"

Yet that option would utterly ignore the entire point and message of TWW, which was to let go of the past and move on.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Solution 2: Ganon in ALttP gets trapped in the Dark World in a separate event from the casting of the Sages' seal.

Yet in TWW Ganon's Mazoku (Moblins, Darknuts, and all,) is stomping around old Hyrule, indicating that nothing is keeping them in the Sacred Realm either.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

You've never really said something like that before. You mainly just acted like the GBA manual overwrote the SNES manual in general. Also, if I recall correctly, the people of TWW usually stayed within the Great Sea. If anything, other people (Zunari) came to them.

I've said it quite a few times, that the GBA manual left out details because explaining them would be superfluous given that there were now other games that did that. My stance has been that the GBA manual IW story tells us everything essential and relevant to ALttP about the IW as of 2002.

Also, "the Great Sea" is not Hyrule, so the descendants "spreading" over the mountaintops is what I refer to when I say "spread to all parts of the world." Additionally, there are several people in the sea of the Ocean King with long ears.

Yet that option would utterly ignore the entire point and message of TWW, which was to let go of the past and move on.

To what extent, though? Obviously Daphnes put an end to Ganondorf's attempt to bring back Hyrule as the land of darkness he created back in OoT/TWW, but what bearing does that have on the people founding a new world and using the example of the old one?

Yet in TWW Ganon's Mazoku (Moblins, Darknuts, and all,) is stomping around old Hyrule, indicating that nothing is keeping them in the Sacred Realm either.

Same goes for FSA. Anyone has to speculate that Ganon and his monsters were somehow trapped in the Dark World despite it being quite open in FSA- in other words, that during or after FSA the Sages/Maidens/whatever sealed the Dark World. I don't think it quite necessary to say that this involved the IW story verbatim, just that the IW story explains where the Sages' seal first came from and why the Sage descendants are so important in breaking it.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I've said it quite a few times, that the GBA manual left out details because explaining them would be superfluous given that there were now other games that did that.

No, you just said that they didn't mention Ganondorf because he was dead (or rather, his first life had ended). You never really brought up other games.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Also, "the Great Sea" is not Hyrule, so the descendants "spreading" over the mountaintops is what I refer to when I say "spread to all parts of the world."

Lex, the mountaintops of the Great Sea were within Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Additionally, there are several people in the sea of the Ocean King with long ears.

The Ocean King's realm is some strange place that people from the Great Sea (such as Link and Tetra) apparently aren't supposed to enter though. Also, unless their ears are like Link's in OoT and TP, the people in PH would presumably just have faint traces of dying Hylian blood left like most people in TWW. Only Tetra, Aryll, Mila, and Maggie had ears that actually met the minimum "Hylian" specifications.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

To what extent, though?

Pretty much entirely. We've been over this numerous times before, even in this thread. Hyrule is basically forgotten and treated like a myth in TWW. The people have developed a new, separate culture as well. Hyrule was also an embodiment of the past and needed to be let go of. Daphnes specifically wished for Hyrule to be erased, and even shot down Tetra's hypothetical rebuilding/creation of Hyrule/a new Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Obviously Daphnes put an end to Ganondorf's attempt to bring back Hyrule as the land of darkness he created back in OoT/TWW, but what bearing does that have on the people founding a new world and using the example of the old one?

As I've mentioned numerous times before (even in this thread), the people of the Great Sea know next to nothing about Hyrule (they've even forgotten the name), and they think that it's just a myth. They also have their own culture by that point. Not only are they incapable of making a new Hyrule, they have their own beliefs and society at that point. It'd make no sense for them to randomly forsake their current beliefs for ancient ones they didn't even think were real. Also, there'd be the issue of old names (Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc.) suddenly returning for no reason.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Same goes for FSA. Anyone has to speculate that Ganon and his monsters were somehow trapped in the Dark World despite it being quite open in FSA- in other words, that during or after FSA the Sages/Maidens/whatever sealed the Dark World.

We see the Four Sword broken in the Palace of the Four Sword though, so we can confirm that it was placed there, whereas a new Hyrule remains a massive, unlikely stretch. Furthermore, the blade being placed there does not mean that the entire Sacred Realm was sealed off. The blade was already meant to be a seal on Ganon and it had a barrier around it.

how does the four sword end up in the SR? removing the blade from the pedestal would release the seal on Ganon.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

No, you just said that they didn't mention Ganondorf because he was dead (or rather, his first life had ended). You never really brought up other games.

That was the original argument, but after examining other games it seems they trimmed down basically anything with a tie to other games.

Lex, the mountaintops of the Great Sea were within Hyrule.

All of them? The flood seems to have hit more than just Hyrule.

The Ocean King's realm is some strange place that people from the Great Sea (such as Link and Tetra) apparently aren't supposed to enter though. Also, unless their ears are like Link's in OoT and TP, the people in PH would presumably just have faint traces of dying Hylian blood left like most people in TWW. Only Tetra, Aryll, Mila, and Maggie had ears that actually met the minimum "Hylian" specifications.

Astrid's ears look pretty pointy
Same with Zauz

Pretty much entirely. We've been over this numerous times before, even in this thread. Hyrule is basically forgotten and treated like a myth in TWW.

Treated like a myth, yes; basically forgotten, not so much.

The people have developed a new, separate culture as well.

Based around sailing, yes, but otherwise with echoes of Hyrule's culture (hero cult, sage equivalents, the same deities, etc.).

Hyrule was also an embodiment of the past and needed to be let go of. Daphnes specifically wished for Hyrule to be erased, and even shot down Tetra's hypothetical rebuilding/creation of Hyrule/a new Hyrule.

Daphnes shot down Ganondorf's wish to literally bring back Hyrule, and instead placed his money on the world of the future. The interpretation of "that land will not be Hyrule" is subjective; you can say it means that the land cannot be named Hyrule, or that that land will not be the ancient kingdom he ruled and was so attached to. I personally think the latter reflects Daphnes's character and the purpose of his wish much better.

Throughout the game he expressed that the people of the Great Sea were sent to the mountaintops to build a new kingdom, and that the gods did this so that Ganon's wish to destroy Hyrule would not truly be fulfilled by sealing away the kingdom. Ganondorf seems to spit on this idea, mocking such a future as impossible; Daphnes on the other hand blesses the efforts for the future with his Triforce wish.

As I've mentioned numerous times before (even in this thread), the people of the Great Sea know next to nothing about Hyrule (they've even forgotten the name), and they think that it's just a myth. They also have their own culture by that point.

Not only are they incapable of making a new Hyrule, they have their own beliefs and society at that point.

They believe in

the same gods
the same hero
the same legends of a golden power

and their society is basically a water-based Hyrule. At least a few of them speak the old language (the Rito attendants, the gods, etc.), and ruins of Hyrule are all over the Great Sea.

We see the Four Sword broken in the Palace of the Four Sword though, so we can confirm that it was placed there, whereas a new Hyrule remains a massive, unlikely stretch.

"Once a year, after this ceremony, the Korogs fly to various places and plant seeds to bring about forests. A forest can change a small island into a large island. The day will come when all of the islands will become one in this way. Then all of the people living there will join hands and build a better world. That is my dream." - The Deku Tree (he plans to build a new land for the future people)

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it.
Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains." - Daphnes (the gods chose people to go to the mountaintops and create a new country so that the kingdom would not be effectively destroyed in the sealing; this also confirms the gods' plans for a new country, corroborating the Deku Tree's efforts)

"That land that will be the next Hyrule!" - Princess Zelda (she has powers of prophecy)

I think this is satisfactory proof. The gods chose to spare the people so that sealing the kingdom would not destroy it, they are meant to build a new country, the Deku Tree is building a new country, and moreover, there is a definite expression that that land will be the "next Hyrule."

Furthermore, the blade being placed there does not mean that the entire Sacred Realm was sealed off. The blade was already meant to be a seal on Ganon and it had a barrier around it.

So are the maidens going to leave the Dark World, which has been "drawing people in," as it were, open and free to continue to do so?

This is the same argument we always have, and it isn't even about the Imprisoning War at the moment. Because this isn't any different from the previous discussions, I hope to make this my last post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

All of them? The flood seems to have hit more than just Hyrule.

Yet the people who fled to the mountaintops of Hyrule apparently stayed in the region. Like I said, if anything other people (such as Zunari) came to them.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Astrid's ears look pretty pointy
Same with Zauz

Not too pointy for Astrid though, and Zauz's ears are closer to the ears of TWW, not OoT or TP. The Ocean King's realm is still a place that people from the Great Sea are apparently not supposed to be in.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Treated like a myth, yes; basically forgotten, not so much.

It is basically forgotten. I've been over this before. The tales and traditions are even fading away on Outset.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Based around sailing, yes, but otherwise with echoes of Hyrule's culture

Not really.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

(hero cult

Only on one island, and it's fading away. Only one person on the entire island even knew/cared about fighting at that time, and the birthday tradition degraded to just wearing a tunic for one day.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

sage equivalents,

No, there aren't any Sage equivalents. Makar was a musician for the Deku Tree, and Medli was Valoo's attendant. Those duties were not Sage related.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the same deities

Not really. Valoo apparently popped up after the flood like Zephos and Cyclos, nobody's close to/really aware of the Deku Tree, and Jabun (if he is Jabu-Jabu and not a new deity) seems to be doing his own thing.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Daphnes shot down Ganondorf's wish to literally bring back Hyrule and instead placed his money on the world of the future.

Yet Daphnes didn't merely wish to stop Ganondorf. Daphnes utterly annihilated Hyrule. Daphnes then told Link and Tetra to look toward the future and not be stuck in the past. Afterward he shot down Tetra's hypothetical rebuilt/new Hyrule. It's clear that Daphnes actually wanted Hyrule gone for good.

also, though you probably don't care, in the Japanese text Daphnes only wishes for the children (Link and Tetra) to have hope. He doesn't wish for the whole world to have hope.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The interpretation of "that land will not be Hyrule" is subjective;

Considering that Daphnes had just gone so far as to obliterate Hyrule with the Triforce and specifically told the children to look to the future instead of staying in the past, it's quite apparent that Daphnes did not intend for them to make a new/similar Hyrule. Considering what he had just done to make sure that Hyrule was vanquished and that people let go of it, Daphnes wanting the Great Sea to produce a new Hyrule is infeasible.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

you can say it means that the land cannot be named Hyrule,

I just want to point out that the people of the Great Sea don't even remember that name.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

or that that land will not be the ancient kingdom he ruled and was so attached to.

Yet if the people basically made a clone of Hyrule down to the culture and even the old names (Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc.) that would completely miss the point of TWW. If Daphnes actually wanted the people of the Great Sea to basically clone Hyrule and run right back into the past, he might as well have just wished that Hyrule surface anyway, only under his rule instead of Ganondorf's.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Throughout the game he expressed that the people of the Great Sea were sent to the mountaintops to build a new kingdom,

New country, not a new kingdom. Also, if I recall correctly, Daphnes only said that once. Furthermore, it's clear that the people of the Great Sea are taking no steps toward rebuilding Hyrule; they even think that it's a myth and they basically forgot all about it. Them potentially rebuilding Hyrule or making a new one really isn't plausible.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and that the gods did this so that Ganon's wish to destroy Hyrule would not truly be fulfilled by sealing away the kingdom.

The Goddesses had no problem with Daphnes destroying Hyrule though, especially since he even calls out to them beforehand and they do nothing to prevent Hyrule's annihilation.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Ganondorf seems to spit on this idea, mocking such a future as impossible; Daphnes on the other hand blesses the efforts for the future with his Triforce wish.

Daphnes actually only wishes for Link and Tetra to have hope and a future.

Originally Posted by Daphnes (Japanese Translation)

A future! Give these children a future full of hope!

Erase Hyrule, the land of the past. Give these children a bright future!!

Originally Posted by Artemicion

They believe in

the same gods

Not really. Valoo apparently came out of left field after the flood along with Zephos and Cyclos, Jabun (if he is Jabu-Jabu) is apparently doing his own thing, and the Deku Tree is on a distant island that nobody can naturally access. I also don't recall anyone on the Great Sea worshipping the Goddesses either.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the same hero

Only in a small myth, and that tale's fading away as well. Even the people of Outset are losing interest.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the same legends of a golden power

Only three Fishmen and one eccentric dude with a telescope. Also, they call it the Triumph Forks, showing that they've forgotten the name. Only one person a Fishman refers to apparently knows the correct name, but that only leaves a bare minimum of detail. Also, if he's talking to Fishmen, he isn't a normal citizen anyway.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and their society is basically a water-based Hyrule.

Not really.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

At least a few of them speak the old language (the Rito attendants, the gods, etc.),

Nobody visits the Deku Tree, nobody understands Valoo except for his one attendant per generation, and it's likely the Rito think that the language is just exclusive to Valoo. It's phenomenally implausible for it to really spread.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and ruins of Hyrule are all over the Great Sea.

Those ruins could easily just be buildings that were made on the islands of Great Sea, not relics from Hyrule. It has been hundreds of years since the Great Flood after all.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

"Once a year, after this ceremony, the Korogs fly to various places and plant seeds to bring about forests. A forest can change a small island into a large island. The day will come when all of the islands will become one in this way. Then all of the people living there will join hands and build a better world. That is my dream." - The Deku Tree (he plans to build a new land for the future people)

He doesn't plan to make an entire continent; at best there'd just be a bunch of narrow stretches of land. Furthermore, his trees are dying in TWW and though he mentions Ganon as a possibility, it is not confirmed, meaning that his plan may just naturally be doomed to failure. Furthermore, the plan would take such an absurdly large amount of time that the people would likely reach a space age before that happened. On top of that, even if a new land was made, it's implausible for it to somehow be a "clone" of Hyrule. Finally, that comment may have just served as a red herring for the ending.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it.
Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains." - Daphnes (the gods chose people to go to the mountaintops and create a new country so that the kingdom would not be effectively destroyed in the sealing;

The people surviving does not mean that Hyrule itself or its culture will survive. As we can see in TWW, Hyrule is basically forgotten, with the few remaining tales being mere myths. Also, the "new country" can be the Great Sea society, not necessarily a new Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

this also confirms the gods' plans for a new country, corroborating the Deku Tree's efforts)

Except the people don't care about Hyrule, the Deku Tree's plan may be naturally doomed to failure, and the "new country" may just be the Great Sea society, or actually just any society that isn't destroyed in general.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

"That land that will be the next Hyrule!" - Princess Zelda (she has powers of prophecy)

This is one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen you make. Tetra does not have prophetic powers like OoT Zelda and she was not being prophetic in TWW's ending; she was trying to convince Daphnes not to kill himself on the fly. Also, here's the whole Japanese quote:

Originally Posted by Tetra (Translated TWW)

H-hey! You… you could come search with us!

That’s it! We have a ship! We’d definitely find it! We’d find land that could become Hyrule!

So…

Note the "could". She's being hypothetical to boot.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

I think this is satisfactory proof.

Those are stretches that may easily serve as red herrings to the ending of TWW. With the Palace of the Four Sword, we blatantly see the Four Sword broken in it, showing that it did indeed reach that place.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The gods chose to spare the people so that sealing the kingdom would not destroy it, they are meant to build a new country,

That country may easily be the Great Sea society, or they were merely intended to form a new society in general.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

the Deku Tree is building a new country,

He's only trying to connect the islands, not necessarily building a colossal ocean-replacing land mass, and he's working at a laughably slow pace to boot. His trees may also just naturally fail to stay alive in the first place.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

and moreover, there is a definite expression that that land will be the "next Hyrule."

Only in the English version, not the Japanese one. Also, regardless of the version, Daphnes shoots Tetra down right after she says that.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

So are the maidens going to leave the Dark World, which has been "drawing people in," as it were, open and free to continue to do so?

The GBA manual said that the realm was sealed because evil came out of it, not because evil drew people in. Furthermore, seeing as how there are one-way portals into the Dark World in ALttP, there was apparently no effort to seal off portals that lead to the Dark World.

look, some of the games tie into each other better than others where as some of them are far out there. whats important is having what matters, a forest, lake or ocean, mountains and some evil dimension place and it's all good to go. as for the time line, they can't tie them together unless they fill in the gaps.

with all the time-travel and stuff, can you really have a time-line? and with all the reincarnations, who know's?