A Challenge to Pinecove

I think all the major players said what they needed to say.
Hopefully those people read through this thing a couple of times and try to understand all sides.

Yes please.

Although Impossible still asked to debate with Pinecove and Pinecove "challenged" his timeline...

Are they gonna do that in this thread or in a new thread?

I think that'd be best, so they could detach from other topics being discussed in this thread.

I don't want this thread to go further off-topic, so for its sake this will be my last post in response to Lex's stuff about TWW.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The SNES manual said that "peace was restored to Hyrule" after Ganon was defeated, and that "Hyrule was in a time of peace" at the time of ALttP (centuries after).

And what the GBA Manual says is that the only thing between the Imprisoning War and A Link to the Past was an era of peace.

Originally Posted by Translated A Link to the Past GBA Manual

Therefore, the king ordered the Seven Sages to create a firm seal so that the entrance to the sacred place would never be opened again.

As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.

However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year.

The Sacred Realm was shut and peace reigned until Agahnim appeared. This is what the GBA manual says. The GBA Manual leaves no time for a game to come between the IW and ALttP.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

ALttP says one thing, and the story of the sages' seal (in OoT) says another.

And TWW says that Hyrule is erased and that nobody really remembers it, while at the same time the creators of FSA wanted to abandon the OoT-IW idea outright.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The difference is important because in ALttP Link getting the Triforce is one of the central events and goals of the story.

That has nothing to do with the realm being shaped via wish or actions. It's the Sacred Realm either way, so the Triforce is naturally going to be in it regardless of how the land was corrupted.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

The fishmen, at least, think it's called "Triumph Forks," but someone clearly knows its true name.

Okay, that makes one dude on the entire ocean who we never meet and may have already been dead by the time of the game who knows only a name. Heck, since Daphnes is shown to have spoken with Fishmen in the game, it might have been him who made one passing comment about the Triforce in the first place. Even if that one guy isn't Daphnes and remembers the name, that's all he knows; a name. Nothing else.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Evidence?

Their entire knowledge of the tale is basically "Once upon a time there was a place that some prick invaded and a teenager in green saved. The teen left, the bad guy came back, and nobody knows what happened after that".

Originally Posted by Artemicion

It's the only old tale we hear, perhaps. But that's not evidence of lack, it's lack of evidence.

Nobody passes around any real tales on the Great Sea or shows any true interest in looking into the past. Hyrule's name isn't even remembered and knowledge of the Triforce is gone as well, with at best one person knowing only of its name. On top of that, the descendants of the Royal Family don't even know that they're the Royal Family, nor do they remember Hyrule's name either. As far as the Great Sea is concerned, everything relating to Hyrule is just a myth.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

"This is but one of the legends of which the people speak"?

And whatever else is out there is so utterly minimal that it isn't even worth mentioning in TWW, and when one considers when the Legend of the Hero was likely written, those other legends may have already died out by TWW.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

You've never really responded to this when I've brought it up.

I always have.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Which is why Tetra, who seems to have never been to Outset prior to the beginning of the game, knows about it?

She doesn't seem to actually know about it. Daphnes just makes a comment saying "Haven't you heard of that land or that tale?"

Originally Posted by Tetra (Japanese TWW)

You made it? The Hyrule Royal Family’s Gossip Stone? I don’t understand what you're saying!

Originally Posted by Daphnes (Japanese TWW)

You’ve heard of it haven’t you? Of the kingdom where the power of the gods slept in the legend of the hero.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Their "sage duties" also evolved along with the culture of the Great Sea; Medli is an attendant, and Makar plays in the forest ceremony.

That's not true. Those were their jobs before they became Sages, not part of their Sage jobs. As Sages, their task was to pray via music in their respective temples to power the Master Sword.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Debatable.

Seeing a picture of somebody doesn't let one know everything about the person. In addition to Hyrule being forgotten, there is no mention of the Sages on the Great Sea at all. Princess Zelda, the leader of the Sages and a friend of the Hero of Time, wasn't even so much as depicted in the Legend of the Hero scrolls. Seeing the windows in the Master Sword chamber does not allow Link to suddenly know that the Sages helped seal Ganon.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

There are Gossip Stones in PH as well.

I already mentioned that. Those were mainly for mini-games and were in a different realm to boot.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Wasn't the idea that the "realm" Link and Tetra had to return from was a kekkai related to the Ghost Ship?

The Ocean King kicked them out of his territory in general.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Which is why we see an entirely new pantheon of temples, rather than the elementally-aligned ones from OoT and TP.

No, because in ALttP Hyrule is well-known and its culture/system of government still exists along with the old names of places. It's far more likely that ALttP takes place on the Child Timeline where Hyrule never fell in the first place.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

All we know is that water filled that bubble.

Originally Posted by Daphnes (Japanese TWW)

Erase Hyrule, the land of the past.

After that quote is said, we see the entire ocean drop hundreds/thousands of feet like a brick onto Hyrule while continuously pulverizing whatever may be left of land. On top of that, freakish magical ocean lightning is in the plummeting water, further reinforcing the notion that this is a true apocalypse being brought on by Daphnes and not just a flood.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

He just wished for hope in the wake of Ganondorf saying there was no hope in rebuilding it.

Wrong. Daphnes did not want Hyrule to return; that's why he specifically wished for it to be erased. To add to that, Daphnes didn't secretly wish for the children to have a new land either, as shown in these quotes.

Originally Posted by Daphnes (Japanese TWW)

I want you two to live while facing forward. There might not be anything there… But I want you to look forward and walk forward.

Farewell… us adults were only able to leave you this world.

Please forgive us.

He also shot down Tetra's hypothetical plans to rebuild Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Daphnes (Japanese TWW)

……Yes, but that wouldn’t be Hyrule.

It would be your land!!

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Which is why Hyrule (at the bottom of the ocean) isn't brought back.

Yet making an exact replica of the old Hyrule and its culture would be running back into the past as well.

Ummm... that's not what I was saying. I was saying that after Pinecove's comment there was nothing more to say... well I guess that is what I was saying, but I'd like to hear more from Impossible/LoZH/Lex, maybe final thoughts or so, before this is closed that might otherwise not be covered properly.

But yeah, this thread has nearly served it's purpose.

Close it. This thread has served it's purpose.

I'm not that familiar with the lock request rules, but since Impossible made the thread, isn't the right to ask for the thread to be locked his?

^ Yes, but as a mod I can close any thread that according to the rules of ZU should be closed. And I think this one qualifies, although I wanted some input on it before making a decision. Just by skimming through the last bunch of posts, this thread has clearly gone off-topic and resulted in an all-round timeline debate which does not suit this thread.

So if you wanna keep on debating the seal war or Wind Waker stuff or whatever, do it someplace else, yes?


EDIT: Yeah so the topic remains open... for now. Tread lightly ITT and stay on-topic

Impossible:

The people who used to be linearists now support what I call the AOST. The people who used to be splittists now support the COST. It's the same principles, the same ideas of context, intent and evidence, informing both debates.

Yeah, and note what I just edited into my previous post... I still can't get over the stupidity of this, from the end of that topic: "The argument is not that ALttP refers to two Ganons; it is that ALttP does NOT refer to the Ganon from the IW." Aaaaarrrgh. ALTTP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS OWN BACKSTORY?

Hombre, here's Impossible talking about Seal War/Imprisoning War in the midst of his opening and second post. I think you're a little confused about this thread's topic.

Yes, this thread has gone off topic at times, but not because of me, in fact just opposite, I think this is just superstition about the horrible things that happen during SW/IW discussions, and in my opinion the whole thing is horribly overly complicated by fans. The whole thing is blown way out of proportion, almost as ridiculous as quantum theory mechanics used to be when they were applied to OoT's time travel, when in fact my view of developer intent on the matter is incredibly simple; Myamoto broke the timeline and SW continuity with OoT , and Aonuma fixed it with three games; FS, GBA AlttP and TP.

Originally Posted by quick silver

In reference to there being no record of any happenings between OoT and AlttP, tWW would sum up why there is little history about the Seal War way better than would TP.

I would add also that TWW offers a better scenario for the decline of the Hylian race, the Hylian descendants spreading out and "rooting themselves in all parts of the world," and the loss of Hylian language (which isn't even hinted at in TP).

I just can’t state it better than that, and I don’t even entirely agree with Lex’s case.

I think all theorists, regardless of their placements, need to realize that the classic timeline could easily link to both sides of the OoT split, and that there are a few elements on each side that could suggest such a link.

There also happens to be an event on both sides of the timeline where an element of the Zelda world present in the 2D games is destroyed (the Hyrule kingdom or the dark Mirror, respectively), so neither timeline is without the need to resolve a "fatal" inconsistency (at least, it is fatal in our minds).

I go with the timeline I use mostly because TWW offered a vehicle to resolve the problem, whereas TP did not. Others go with the opposite because they see TWW's problem as more insurmountable than TP's, usually discounting that the Mirror even is a problem by concluding that they are simply not the same- rather how we Adult timeline enthusiasts conclude that the Hyrule is the new kingdom built after TWW.

I think it's telling that there is always a duality- always two sides of the coin. On both prongs of the split we find hints to the 2D games, and on both we find obstacles. I wonder if that's one of the hidden messages of Twilight Princess, and of the split timeline in general.

There also happens to be an event on both sides of the timeline where an element of the Zelda world present in the 2D games is destroyed (the Hyrule kingdom or the dark Mirror, respectively), so neither timeline is without the need to resolve a "fatal" inconsistency (at least, it is fatal in our minds).

The Twilight Mirror is no fatal inconsistency. The Twilight Mirror and the Dark Mirror are not the same and have never been the same. If anything, the Dark Mirror is the Magic Mirror from ALttP. The magic un-flooding of all Hyrule to a pristine, pre-flood state with no recollection of a flood or any references to TWW's events in any other game requires a lot more fan fiction than just assuming that the two mirrors are different.

Lex, you're saying that a mirror, and there's many mirrors in the series, is a bigger timeline indicator than Hyrule being destroyed and the MS being lost forever while appearing in LttP?

lol

^ That's all up to interpretation.

However I'd say that the TM and the DM serve very identical purposes hense I'd say they're the same.

I'd say it's more logical to assume that the MS is, you know, the same MS...

LttP makes it impossible (well someone (Lex) could probably find a way to go completely against the intent and make up fanfic for them being different...) for a new MS to be made between the SW and LttP. And the MS is lost at the bottom of the ocean, erased along with Hyrule.

Plus, if the TM is the DM of LttP and FSA then it would have been erased with Hyrule, as well.

Originally Posted by Darthganondorf

The Twilight Mirror is no fatal inconsistency. The Twilight Mirror and the Dark Mirror are not the same and have never been the same.

Both:

Were used to seal a tribe of magic users who tried to take over Hyrule
Reflect the darkness in people's hearts and create monsters
Were plot devices in games written by the very same writer

What, aside from namesake, makes them different?

Originally Posted by Som

Plus, if the TM is the DM of LttP and FSA then it would have been erased with Hyrule, as well.

Why? It could have survived like, say, any of the other things we see in TWW.

Lex, you're saying that a mirror, and there's many mirrors in the series, is a bigger timeline indicator than Hyrule being destroyed and the MS being lost forever while appearing in LttP?

There are only two mirrors used to seal dark tribes that reflect the darkness in people's hearts that appear in games written by Aya Kyogoku.

Hyrule, on the other hand, has had as many guises as there have been games (well, LoZ, AoL, ALttP/FSA, OoT, TMC, TP), and the Master Sword is quite able to appear after it should have disappeared from existence (Link disappeared into the past with it on his back at the end of OoT and yet it came around again in TWW, even though Link himself had vanished from the timeline).

There are three main "cycles" of Hyrule in particular:

-That of OoT and TP, featuring the "elemental" temples, the Sheikah's Kakariko, Sea Zoras at the waterfall, etc.
-That of LoZ and AoL, the "region" of Hyrule and the "little kingdom" to the south, full of the "labyrinths" where the Triforce are hidden and "temples" where the seals to Death Valley are placed, featuring villages named after OoT's sages, etc.
- That of ALttP and FSA, with the "east," "desert," and "mountain" temples, Kakariko Village at the edge of a northwestern Lost Wood, etc.

Though they all share locality around Death Mountain, aside from that these incarnations of Hyrule are different enough in terms of manmade places to warrant a possible cycle of destruction and renewal- it's clear that Hyrule has had at least one or two face lifts at some point between these three "arcs," none of which have been specifically given a reason.

I would say that the gods' plan to send the people to the mountaintops to "[re]awaken Hyrule" (that's right, I take these facts together as one, as I believe they are intended to be), combined with the Deku Tree's plans to create a new land (where that kingdom will appear), the destruction of Ganondorf (the obstacle to the Deku Tree's aims), and the wish of Daphnes for hope all lend to such a renewal being not only possible, but even something the developers may have had in mind when they designed these concepts.

It is my belief that they may use this idea to explain one (or both) of the "face lifts" I previously mentioned. Unfortunately it's not something they have specifically developed- but then again, they haven't gone and made a game that obviously connects TP's story to the 2D games, either. I'd say either is wide open at this point.

well someone (Lex) could probably find a way to go completely against the intent and make up fanfic for them being different...

Fanfiction is when someone invents a story outside of but related to a fictional universe. I am simply trying to explain the fictional universe using conclusions based on what we're told and shown... I don't see how that's fanfiction.

Moreover, I don't see how you can make claims about "the intent" of an incredibly open-ended ending to a game in a series that traditionally has not focused terribly much on creating a clear, defined continuity.

Your post made me angry and I think I responded a little too angrily and rudely.

I'll respond again when I can calm down and when/if I remember to respond...

Originally Posted by Som

Hey look, there are only two games where the Master Sword appears in the forest. OMGZ SUPER TIMLIEN INDICATOR!!!1!11

I'm just assuming you're talking about TP-->ALttP here so...

While it's not a strong indicator by itself, the fact that Aonuma has stated that a) he wants to connect the 2D games with the 3D games and b) ALttP is his favourite game... makes it a lot more likely that the developer intention is TP---ALttP.

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

I'm just assuming you're talking about TP-->ALttP here so...

While it's not a strong indicator by itself, the fact that Aonuma has stated that a) he wants to connect the 2D games with the 3D games and b) ALttP is his favourite game... makes it a lot more likely that the developer intention is TP---ALttP.

Likewise, FSA showed the origins of a lot of things later featured in ALttP. Because the Magic Mirror was an important plot point in ALttP, I'd say it's safe to assume that the Dark Mirror was its origin story. Also recall that the Dark World and the Twilight Realm, though similar, are entirely different. And the Twilight Mirror was never shown to produce evil clones or be small enough that you can hold it in your hand. The evil tribe sealed by the Dark Mirror also looks nothing like the Twili, as it seems to consist of mostly ghosts, Moblins, other common enemies.

Zelda reuses memes a lot. This was just one of those reused memes.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Both:

Were used to seal a tribe of magic users who tried to take over Hyrule
Reflect the darkness in people's hearts and create monsters
Were plot devices in games written by the very same writer

What, aside from namesake, makes them different?

What? This makes very little sense. Since when did the Twilight Realm reflect the hearts of people? Since when did the Twilight Realm create monsters?

What does it matter if it's the same writer? If it is the same writer, don't you think he would be more specific about this? Zelda is notorious for re-using concepts, and the mirror is one of the very simplest concepts that exist.