The SNES American Manual can be Canon

Intro

This thread is my personal opinion based on text. All I am doing is analyzing the text in this manual. I honestly don't know whether it was confirmed that the GBA retcons the SNES manual, among other things, such as there being only one master sword in all of zelda, but I'll assume it was. Personally I don't see how 1000 words of text can be retconned by 100, but that's just me.

The Nitty Gritty

Okay this is very unorganized because I got lazy at some point. I may have repeated some stuff.

I picked what I thought might be the parts of the SNES American manual that don't make sense at first, but if viewed in another way, it can still be canon.

However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army.

The people who went there never returned as their original selves. They can return as members of Ganon's army as evil beings, or they stayed in the evil realm altogether.

Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane

The two japanese versions of this quote can actually mean the same thing. The master sword was made in response to Ganon getting the triforce. Hylians with pointed ears can hear the gods. They told or hinted to the Hylians of the idea to create an evil repelling sword. The Hylians heard them or subconsiciously realized this. This means a new master sword was forged after OoT and before ALTTP or vice versa.

Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle.

The other two jap quotes say it was his gas/malice instead of army, but it can mean the same thing. So only his army/malice attacked the castle while ganon stayed in the dark world.

The king asked the sages and knights to seal the entrance of the sacred realm (which is where the source of evil, ganon, resides in). The hylians are elsewhere, they are not and will not be included in the battle that will commence. The gods told these hylians to make a master sword. The creation of the master sword can be done without the sages and knights' awareness since the gods only told the hylians and the hylians are not with the sages or knights. Then the sages eventually caught wind of its creation, maybe they doubted the rumor at first since one of the versions says "looked for its existence", and so they looked for it and a hero to use it. As they were looking for both, the army/malice made it to the castle, so the sages gave up and joined the knights again. The knights gave the sages enough time to seal the entrance of the realm, preventing ganon from escaping it.

I would say that if this master sword is the first one, then alttp would go before oot in the timeline but I assume there are inconsistencies with that, yet I haven't really thought about it and if I do feel like trying to find a way for alttp-oot or alttp-...-oot to work if someone brings up any problems then I will go for it.

ALTTP has its own time, it's own version of characters and settings. The Hylians are more closer to the gods than the sages, in this time. Even the japanese texts say:

The Hylian people, who left behind these written records, were an elected (chosen) people able to hear the voices of gods. For that reason they were in possession of tall ears, excelled senses, and the use of magic/sorcery.

This documentation was written by the race of Hylia, the chosen people capable of hearing the voices of the gods. For that reason, the Hylians have high ears, unsurpassed senses, and the ability to use magic.

The sages eventually looked for the master sword and a hero to use it, at the same time. The hero was not among the knights.

The hylians made the master sword in this time, not sages or gods. I can see how two master swords can be created in different times.

Pronounciation: hitobito wa sono ougon no chikara o motome, waresama to seichi o sagashimashita.
Jap 1: Many claimed that golden power, and competed individually to search for the sacred place.
Jap 2: The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm.
USA: Many aggressively searched for the wish-granting Triforce, but no one, not even the Hylian sages, was sure of its location; the knowledge had been lost over time.

Usa mentioned hylian sages even though it wasn't in the jap. Some picture and the jap word connecting wise men = sages means the sages were wise men, hylian.

Pronounciation: kenjyatachi wa mazu, MASUTA-SO-DO to sore o atsukau yuujya no sonzai o sagashimashita.
Jap 1: Initially, the Sages searched for the Master Sword and an existant hero/brave man that could handle the sword.
Jap 2: The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.
USA: As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword,

The jap word for sages is in this one. The usa says the seven wise men looked for a person who can use the master sword, they know it was created. The japs say they looked for the sword and the hero. There is no real difference, both the japs and usa can coexist, all 3 can mean the sages know it exists.

The hylian sages are with the knights. These sages know the master sword was created because they also heard the gods. The people of Hyrule, who are away from them, were the ones who actually made it. Upon hearing this, the sages went to look for the master sword so that they can see it for themselves, and also went to look for someone who can use it. However, the evil was quicker than them, so the sages had to hurry back to the knights and fight without the sword.

The Jap Manual doesn't state the master sword predates ganon, or that it was so old that no one remembered where it was. Because none of that is stated there, there are other possibilities for the story in the manual.

ALTTP can have its own settings and characters because it is in a different time than OoT for example. In OoT one guy says "they say hylians can hear the gods but i haven't heard anything". All he does is try to listen to them from a high place, market town in the past, kakariko tower in the future. ALTTP thieves opened the entrance, OoT Link did. I don't know who made the master sword in OoT. ALTTP does not have to match with OoT or any other zelda game, it can have its own version of things, like having more hylians as sages, and the OoT races not being so important to ALTTP Hyrule (the zoras seem to be just monsters except the one who gives you flippers).

The creation of the master sword in ALTTP does not have to be the one from OoT whether or not the OoT's Master sword origin differs from ALTtp's. In general, a sword can get lost and a new one can be made in the same way.

The reason why there is more than one possibility for what the manual is talking about is because a lot of the text can be viewed differently. In some cases, like this manual, not everything stated is set in stone, there is more than one legit way of interpreting that information. The translator is no exception.

Repel does not always mean prevent. To repel an evil kidnapping of the triforce with an expel evil sword can mean to oppose/destroy an evil who already took it. The sages looked for a hero to use it after the triforce was taken. The master sword in ALTTP is not the master sword in OoT. OoT's prevents evil from lifting the sword and opposes them in a hero's hands. ALTTP's is just used to fight any evil who already has the triforce. In ALTtP, the triforce is already in evil's hands and the king already ordered the sages and the knights to seal the golden land. Then the sages looked for a master sword so that someone noble can use it to possibly kill the triforce wielding Ganon. The sages/wisemen didn't use or even need the master sword to make the seal. The knights defended them and the wisemen did their job and prevented ganon from entering the light world. The IW master sword aka alttp's master sword is not the key to the sacred realm like oot's master sword. Otherwise the sword would not be needed for searching since the sages and knights were sent to the entrance beforehand.

Because of its origin, there is no problem with hylians making another master sword. It is, was, and will always be possible.

OoT's master sword prevents evil from lifting the sword to enter the sacred realm. There is no other way to get in there than to have a hero lift it.

About OoT's master sword not shooting out beams:

The voice of the Elder Sahasralah comes echoing, though it's uncertain from where.
... ... ...

Link, you have done well to have acquired the magic-repelling sword...

That radiance is all your power.
That sword should be able to crush even the priest's magical power!
This country's fate rests with you.
I'm counting on you, Link. ...

Translator: The NOA translation leaves out the part where Sahasrahla says that the shining of the sword is actually Link's power.

I'm unclear on whether this means the power comes from Link himself, or whether it's the sword's power that now belongs to him because he has claimed the sword, but either way, the point stands. Since he needs to be at full power to use the sword to its fullest (fire energy bolts), I'm leaning toward it coming from Link himself.

There are more examples of a translator's opinion of a text.

OoT's master sword doesn't shoot out sword beams. altTp's does. A sword beam doesn't shoot out of a fully powered alttp link's first sword, but a sword beam can be shot out of the master sword by a fully powered alttp link.

All ALTTP's IW sages are hylian. Not all hylians are sages. The manual still makes distinctions between hylians and sages during certain portions. The manual says a master sword was made by hylians. This part can refer to the IW, which is not OoT according to texts. It doesn't say the sages made this one. The sages looked for a person to use the sword as well as the sword itself, which wouldn't be necessary if the sages were involved in making it in the first place. OoT's sword can be different than alttps, easily. My interpretation of this manual is valid.

In oot, you have to enter the sacred realm to get the triforce. The master sword has to be lifted to open the entrance of the sacred realm. Rauru said the master sword was the final key to the sacred realm. Conclusion: This master sword was created to function as a seal to the sacred realm. Only one worthy of the title "hero of time" can lift it, not just any good person.

Resources

SNES Manual: http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/te...ual_story.html

GBA Manual:

プロローグ
Prologue

はるか昔、混沌とした世界に降り立った「力の神」「知恵の神」「勇気の神」の三神は、あらゆるものを創造し 終えたとき、全知全能である黄金の聖三角体･トライフォースを世界のどこかに残されました。
A long long time ago, when the trinity of the "God of Power", the "God of Wisdom", and the "God of Courage" had descended to the world of chaos and completed their creation of all things, they left behind somewhere in the world an omniscient and omnipotent sacred golden triangle, the Triforce.
Aeons ago, the deities of Power, Courage, and Wisdom descended to the world of chaos. They created the world that we know and left behind a symbol of their strength, the golden emblem known as the Triforce, which they hid in the Golden Land.

長い年月の後、黄金が隠された聖地への入り口がハイラル王国で聖地へと向かいましたが帰ってきたものはなく 、それどころか悪しき力がそこから湧き出るようになったのです。
After many years, people headed for the sacred place that hid the gold, the entrance to which was in the kingdom of Hyrule. But none returned – on the contrary, evil power came gushing forth from there.
After many years, an opening was found that led from our fair Hyrule to the Golden Land, where the mystical Triforce was still hidden. Many sought treasure in this place, but none returned - only beings of great evil emerged from the Golden Land.

そこで国王は七人の賢者に命じ、聖地への入り口を二度と開くことのないよう、強固に封印させま した。
Therefore, the king ordered the Seven Sages to create a firm seal so that the entrance to the sacred place would never be opened again.
The King of Hyrule gathered the Seven Sages to find a way to seal the entrance to the Golden Land so that his kingdom would be safe from the evil there.

その結果ハイラルには平和が戻り、人々はまた平穏な暮らしを営み始めたのです。
As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.
The Sages succeeded and brought peace again to Hyrule.

ところが、ある年に起きた原因不明の災いに対し、それを鎮めることを名目として"アグニム"と名乗る謎の司 祭がやってきてから、ハイラルでは不審な事件が起こりだします。
However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year.
However, strange things have been happening in Hyrule since the appearance of Agahnim, a mysterious sorcerer who gained fame for extinguishing a devastating blaze of unknown origin some years ago.

そして…
And…
And now…

ある夜、あなたは女の子の声で目を覚まします。
One night, a girl's voice wakes you up.
One night, a girl's voice wakes you from sleep.

「助けてください…私の名はゼルダ…お城の地下牢に捕らわれています」
"Please help me… My name is Zelda… I am being held prisoner in the castle underground dungeon."
"Help me… My name is Zelda… I am in the castle dungeon."

その声は夢なのか現実なのか、冷たい雨が降る不吉な夜に「ゼルダの伝説」が始まろうとしている のです。
Whether that voice was a dream or reality – in this ominous night of cold rainfall, the "Legend of Zelda" is about to begin.
Not knowing if the voice was a dream or reality, you step into the rain and forbidding darkness… and the Legend of Zelda begins.

I'm not going to respond to everything here.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

The two japanese versions of this quote can actually mean the same thing. The master sword was made in response to Ganon getting the triforce.

If you are referring to the Zelda Legends Translations, the ZL Translation Commentary says that the Master Sword was made before Ganon ever gained the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends Translation Commentary

The Sages searched for the Master Sword as well as a Hero. This confirms the above statement that the Master Sword was made before Ganon appeared.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

ALTTP has its own time, it's own version of characters and settings. The Hylians are more closer to the gods than the sages,

The IW Sages were Hylian, not to mention that it was said in TP that the Sages made the Master Sword.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

The reason why there is more than one possibility for what the manual is talking about is because a lot of the text can be viewed differently. In some cases, like this manual, not everything stated is set in stone, there is more than one legit way of interpreting that information. The translator is no exception.

However, you have to make large assumptions that you can't back up for your theory.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

Repel does not always mean prevent. To repel an evil kidnapping of the triforce with an expel evil sword can mean to oppose/destroy an evil who already took it.

That was the whole point. The Master Sword was meant to defeat somebody who had taken the Triforce.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

OoT's master sword doesn't shoot out sword beams. altTp's does.

Actually, judging from the translator's commentary, it looks more like ALttP Link was just more in tune with the blade/more powerful than OoT Link. It doesn't mean that the blades are different.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

I'm not going to respond to everything here.



If you are referring to the Zelda Legends Translations, the ZL Translation Commentary says that the Master Sword was made before Ganon ever gained the Triforce.





The IW Sages were Hylian, not to mention that it was said in TP that the Sages made the Master Sword.



However, you have to make large assumptions that you can't back up for your theory.



That was the whole point. The Master Sword was meant to defeat somebody who had taken the Triforce.



Actually, judging from the translator's commentary, it looks more like ALttP Link was just more in tune with the blade/more powerful than OoT Link. It doesn't mean that the blades are different.

I mentioned it in the first post, but they might have translated it, looked at it, then decided what it could mean. I believe their commentary is their opinion, and it is based on evidence, but I don't know what they were thinking at the time. They might have assumed that only one master sword can exist or that because noa's only says they looked for a hero (not for the sword) and the japs say they looked for the sword and hero, they assumed the sword existed before ganon, but I'm pretty sure I provided a possible scenario to work around their assumption.

Here it is :

The hylian sages are with the knights. These sages know the master sword was created because they also heard the gods. The people of Hyrule, who are away from them, were the ones who actually made it. Upon hearing this, the sages went to look for the master sword so that they can see it for themselves, and also went to look for someone who can use it. However, the evil was quicker than them, so the sages had to hurry back to the knights and fight without the sword.

It's not that I'm making assumptions, I'm looking for a way for the story to make sense in both us and jap versions, and I believe I have. I don't believe NOA always equals FAIL in every case.

Some people can take "repel" to mean to prevent the lifting of the sword.

And like I said before, the translator's commentary does not always equal WIN. There are more cases where they actually choose to define what a statement means, from options.

Here's another:

おぉ　ここを右じゃ　…　…
ワシにもなあ、あんたくらいの
まご娘がいてのう…。

国王に　お城に連れて行られて
戻ってこぬ…　イケニエなど
きっと司祭のたくらみじゃ！

魔法陣を封じた７賢者の力を
うけつぐ娘たちを捕えて、その
力をりようするつもりじゃ。 Oh, go right here ... ...
I have a granddaughter about your age myself...

She was taken to the castle by the king and hasn't returned... This sacrifice nonsense is surely the priest's plot!

He intends to capture the maidens who inherit the power of the Seven Sages who sealed the magic portals, and make use of that power. Uhh... Turn right here... ...
You know, I have a
granddaughter who is your

age... The King took her to the
castle and she never returned.
Kidnapping those maidens must

be part of the wizard's plot!
I'm sure he is trying to
somehow use the power of the

descendants of the wise
men... 魔法 means magic, but the only meaning of 陣 I can find that makes any sense refers to the doors monks use... I'm hoping 'portal' is close enough.

Based on the quote below, the old man is talking about warp tiles. So he seems to be saying that the sages sealed a warp tile. It's not clear if this means they sealed portals from the Dark World to the Light World, or vice versa, but the former is more likely.

Notice how "sacrifice" changed to "kidnapping."

イケニエにされた娘は、今も
どこかで生きておる。それを
救う『勇者』が現れる時を
ワシは信じてまっておる…。

おっ、つい話こんでしもうたの
年よりに色々と　ありがとう。

おお、そうじゃ。もし魔物陣に
迷いこんだ時は、このカガミに
あんたの　姿をうつしなさい。 The maidens made into sacrifices are alive somewhere even now. I believe in and waiting for the time when a "Hero" who will rescue them will appear...

Oh dear, I've rambled on.
Thanks for all you did for an old man.
Oh, yes. In case the time comes when you stray into a magic portal, reflect your form in this mirror.

I already provided my master sword statement here, showing how my opinion of a text can be correct:

OoT's master sword doesn't shoot out sword beams. altTp's does. A sword beam doesn't shoot out of a fully powered alttp link's first sword, but a sword beam can be shot out of the master sword by a fully powered alttp link.

You see, if that translator says the power comes from Link, then how come a full health Link doesn't shoot sword beams from his Level 1 Sword in ALTTP? Yet a full health Link shoots out sword beams from his Level 2, 3 ,4 master Sword. The only difference is the sword itself. This is why I believe the master sword gives a person the power to shoot sword beams.

Like I also said, the part where they said how the master sword was created can refer to the IW and not necessarily OoT's origin of the master sword, especially considering that part of hte alttp manual is in the Imprisoning War sEction.

I mentioned it in the first post, but they might have translated it, looked at it, then decided what it could mean.

And this is exactly the horribly flawed assumption that leads to some posters misunderstanding the translations entirely and still trying to twist the wording to have a particular meaning. No, they are not translating it, wiping their memories, then reading their own translations and trying to interpret them like everyone else. THEY ARE INTERPRETING THE JAPANESE THAT YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY READ. So they can perfectly understand the specific words being used, the order in which they are used, and what they would normally imply in Japanese usage.

For example, the clarifications of TWW's "Hero of Time reborn" line, or the parts involving descendants, are not merely an interpretation. Because while the English words used in the translations of those lines still have multiple meanings, including the literal one, that doesn't make it a valid interpretation. The Japanese word used still has its own specific applications and meanings. There isn't a 1:1 Japanese to English conversion, and you can't assume that just because you can read the translation, you know exactly what the Japanese wording is implying. This is exactly what translation notes are for, and why it's generally important to take them into account. This is actually one of the reasons ALttP's manual implies that it must take place before LoZ. And, yes, it sure as hell means that the Master Sword dates back to long before Ganon. How can you even question this as canon, when we know it as a fact from OoT and TP?

Again, not responding to everything.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

You see, if that translator says the power comes from Link, then how come a full health Link doesn't shoot sword beams from his Level 1 Sword in ALTTP?

He's simply more in synch with the Master Sword and can channel his power through the holy blade better.

Also, god, the US SNES manual also had "Ganondorf Dragmire". There are some blatant errors and misrepresentation of canon involving the goddesses, the Triforce, the Master Sword, and the events of the IW themselves. Most of it is retconned by OoT or by ALttP GBA, which shows that they were errors. Why do we need to discuss taking into account a non-canon source?

There isn't a 1:1 Japanese to English conversion, and you can't assume that just because you can read the translation, you know exactly what the Japanese wording is implying.

All I'm saying is the translation is too vague, it can mean two things. There are cases when the translators have to look at other quotes to determine the meaning for the first one (old man death mountain, and this master sword creation).

And, yes, it sure as hell means that the Master Sword dates back to long before Ganon. How can you even question this as canon, when we know it as a fact from OoT and TP?

Like I said, I believe 2 master swords can be created. One by the sages from/before OoT, and the other by Hylians in the IW before ALTTP.

He's simply more in synch with the Master Sword and can channel his power through the holy blade better.

The beams come from Link because of 2 things: he is at full health, and he is holding the Master Sword. If one of these requirements is not met, a beam will not be shot out.

Also, god, the US SNES manual also had "Ganondorf Dragmire". There are some blatant errors and misrepresentation of canon involving the goddesses, the Triforce, the Master Sword, and the events of the IW themselves. Most of it is retconned by OoT or by ALttP GBA, which shows that they were errors. Why do we need to discuss taking into account a non-canon source?

Does his last name being Dragmire actually conflict with anything? How do the goddesses and triforce conflict with anything in OoT? I'm only considering the text, I'm not keeping "OoT is the IW" in mind. Only after studying the text can I come up with a solution, and I already mentioned in another thread that there may be some in game text/manuals that conflict with OoT being the IW anyway. If you say the Master Sword is misrepresented here, that just supports my theory that the snes manual is not talking about OoT's ms. All of the snes's manual information does not have to be disregarded by a gba's 2 page short summary if the assumption that "OoT is the IW" is not kept in mind. I find that some of alttp's translators comments actually keep that idea in mind, which may cause them to incorrectly take things in a certain context.

So it's been established that they sometimes look at other quotes to determine a meaning for the first one. I highlighted the master sword one here:

そこで、ハイラル人は神のお告げで、トライフォースをかどわかす魔を撃退する、退魔の剣を造り ました。 soko de, HAIRARUjin wa kami no otsuge de, TORAIFO-SU o kadowakasu ma o gekitai suru, taima no ken o tsugerima****a. Accordingly, to repel an evil "kidnapping" of the Triforce, Hyrule's people were informed by a divine oracle to make an "expel-evil" sword. For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane, [...]

Important: the American translation introduces its own story, and thus introduces an inconsistency with later games. A divine oracle (or a "divine message" from the gods, i.e. God's voice) told the people to make a mighty sword, supposedly long before the appearance of Ganondorf. They did not create it by themselves in response to Ganon's rise to power. The Master Sword is indeed older than we thought, since later the sages aren't even sure if it existed and had to search for it (see below). This means it was not created at the time of Ganon's rise, and thus that the sword can be legendary in OoT.

Also note that the blade is supposed to repel the evil one who would steal the Triforce, not "powers granted by the Triforce." So it does not, as we previously though, merely repel Triforce magic; it repels ANY evil!

賢者達はまず、マスターソードとそれを扱う勇者の存在を捜しました。 kenjyatachi wa mazu, MASUTA-SO-DO to sore o atsukau yuujya no sonzai o sagashima****a. Initially, the Sages searched for the Master Sword and an existant hero/brave man that could handle the sword. The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it. As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, [...] The Sages searched for the Master Sword as well as a Hero. This confirms the above statement that the Master Sword was made before Ganon appeared.

Just because sages looked for the existence of this ms doesn't mean this one wasn't created in response to Ganon.