Prove FSA map is not canon and more

Okay, considering the ST thread was going a little bit off topic, I decided to create this one.

This is a thread for Impossible, Pinecove, Som and whoever else who wants to prove the following:

1- The FSA map is not canon.
2- FSA was "always" supposed to come in the YT, despite the map have being an island since beta stages.
3- Why is FSA the Seal War, even though it doesn't even mentions any sages (that name was removed in beta texts)
4- How on earth does FSA map being not canon helps placing LoZ/AoL?
5- How the dying language contributes to any of this...

Here are my stances on these topics, before people starting posting their views. The people I mentioned above, please post your views first, then reply to mine. I don't want to have this thread contaminated with my thoughts at first, specially considering I want to hear yours first. That would make the thread specifically about criticising my thoughts, and I don't really want that. So please post your views first, then read mine.

1. I have no idea where Pinecove got that from. An official in-game map of a canon game is canon, despite what someone might want to believe.

2. The (canon) map shows Hyrule in an island, while TP has no visible ocean close enough. So I still think that is enough to prove intent, even better than the TMC map (Impossible - and everyone else who has TMC first - is being kind of a hypocrite to use the TMC hat thing to prove intent but ignoring this)

3. Yes, FSA was originally planned to be th SW. That's why they removed part of the text of the LttP manual before they released FSA. They didn't want it to match OoT anymore. But, before FSA was done, they removed almost everything that referenced to the SW, meaning they gave up on the idea of having OoT not being the SW anymore. So OoT is still the SW, despite the few inconsistencies.

BTW, inconsistecies exist in almost every game. Like the fact that TWW refers to something that happened in MM, or the fact that TP has several legendary itens that were never used by the child HoT, etc. You can understand OoT as a retcon to LttP's SNES manual, then LttP's GBA manual as a retcon to OoT, then FSA final version as a retcon to the last retcon, reverting that retcon and making OoT the SW again.

4. That was for Pinecove. It wasn't only geography that tied LoZ/AoL to the end of the AT. If it was, that wouldn't be enough anyway...

5. My stance on the language is this: languages die. Like nowadays, old english is considered a separate language to middle english and modern english. Yet they are all called english. Old Hylian died before TWW, then a new version of Hylian was there. It was still there in TMC, but, in FSA, it is dying again. LttP probably refers to Old Hylian (as the middle one had been dead just for a few years/centuries), considering the language was not only dead, but it was also forgotten.

1- The FSA map is not canon.

The point isn't that it's not canon. The point is that it's not story. It's art/gameplay. Unrelated to story and unrelated to the Zelda series storywriters.

2- FSA was "always" supposed to come in the YT, despite the map have being an island since beta stages.

For some reason you claim I didn't respond to this already, even though I think I talked about it before you even asked, so there wasn't much need. Erimgard has explained this in the topic about the removed FSA quotes.

3- Why is FSA the Seal War, even though it doesn't even mentions any sages (that name was removed in beta texts)

FSA isn't the Seal War/Imprisoning War. It WAS during its development. As you point out, sages were originally in the game - as was the Master Sword, and a couple of references to what seems to be the Sacred Realm. Combine that with the elements left in the game: the origins of ALttP Ganon, and with the Knights of Hyrule story, and you basically have the entire story of the IW. Unfortunately, due to the story being seen as too confusing by Miyamoto, a lot of it was simplified so that IW elements were removed, forcing them to make it not be the IW anymore. I don't believe this has bearing on its timeline placement, because all the evidence suggests that it was not changed for timeline reasons. More importantly, it's proof that Nintendo see the Child placement of 2D games as a reality. A simplification of FSA isn't going to justify changing the entire shape of the timeline and 6+ other games. Hence, if they really did see it that way, they logically still do.

5- How the dying language contributes to any of this...

The Hylian language is dead in the time of TWW. In FSA, there were originally references to it being a language that was still in the process of being forgotten, that people were trying to maintain. A language cannot go from dead back to just being dying. That's the point being made, whether you want to take it as valid or not is up to you.

Thanks for replying, Impossible. I was just hoping that, after you posted your views you would read mine and reply. lol

Anyway, numbers 1 and 3 were for Pinecove and Som. Sorry I didn't mention that. So let me reply to your numbers 2 and 5.

For some reason you claim I didn't respond to this already, even though I think I talked about it before you even asked, so there wasn't much need. Erimgard has explained this in the topic about the removed FSA quotes.

I remember you responded to this already. But I'll be sincere that I don't remember exactly what you said though. So, if possible, could you copy and paste what you said in that thread (there was a lot of things being discussed there) or say it again? If it is not, just drop that.

The Hylian language is dead in the time of TWW. In FSA, there were originally references to it being a language that was still in the process of being forgotten, that people were trying to maintain. A language cannot go from dead back to just being dying. That's the point being made, whether you want to take it as valid or not is up to you.

Oh, I understand what you meant now. Still, can't it be two different languages dying at different times?

Please see my response to number 5 in the OP to understand my views on this better...

Originally Posted by Impossible

For some reason you claim I didn't respond to this already, even though I think I talked about it before you even asked, so there wasn't much need. Erimgard has explained this in the topic about the removed FSA quotes.

You might mix him up with me. I was saying earlier that I asked about your reasoning behind there being proof for FSA being on the childtimeline. Or being originally planned as being on the child timeline or whatever. I asked if you could repeat your reasons or link me or paste something, but you never replied to that.

More importantly, it's proof that Nintendo see the Child placement of 2D games as a reality. A simplification of FSA isn't going to justify changing the entire shape of the timeline and 6+ other games. Hence, if they really did see it that way, they logically still do.

This is exactly the part that I am having trouble to understand. Why is it proof that they see the 2D games on the childtimeline? You are dissmissing the possibility that FSA was intended to be the seal war, but at the same time was intended to be after WW. And I don't see why you are dissmissing it and claiming this is proof of them seeing the 2D games on the childtimeline.

I'm not saying that it' not possible for them to think of the 2D games on the CT, I'm just asking you how this is proof that they indeed do so.

Just for the record, the language being forgotten in FSA's removed text is the "Hyrule language". The language that is said to be forgotten in aLttP/WW is "the Hylian language".

1- The FSA map is not canon.

FSA's beta map was on an island when FSA was still a CT game being the SW. Therefore FSA's map isn't Canon because it was meant to be on an island even when a CT game.

2- FSA was "always" supposed to come in the YT, despite the map have being an island since beta stages.

Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad...
In an effort to preserve our beautiful ancient tongue, I've made a language exam.

The language is the Hylian tounge. It already died in TWW, so it can't be revived.

Just for the record, the language being forgotten in FSA's removed text is the "Hyrule language". The language that is said to be forgotten in aLttP/WW is "the Hylian language".

*cough*

Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad...
In an effort to preserve our beautiful ancient tongue, I've made a language exam.

3- Why is FSA the Seal War, even though it doesn't even mentions any sages (that name was removed in beta texts)

Um...it isn't.

4- How on earth does FSA map being not canon helps placing LoZ/AoL?

LoZ/AoL being last, relies on the asumption of growing land. If FSA's map isn't Canon, then that means new Hyrule always had mountains, hense the growth of land, doesn't even matter.

5- How the dying language contributes to any of this...

If FSA was on the AT in the beta stages, then we have this.

OoT (Hylian, stron and health)-TWW(Dead, forgotten language)-FSA (Hylian dying)-ALttP(Dead again).

It doesn't make sence.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

FSA's beta map was on an island when FSA was still a CT game being the SW.

Except FSA
-on the CT
-as the IW

has never been proven, only speculated.

The language is the Hylian tounge. It already died in TWW, so it can't be revived.

Hyrulean. Of course, this guy could still be talking about most people not knowing the Hylian tongue from TWW anyway, so...

Pinecove, that's the English translation. Jancesolo looked at the Japanese and it's the Hyrule language, not the Hylian language.
Want some copy/pasta?

Except FSA
-on the CT
-as the IW

has never been proven, only speculated.

Doesn't matter.

We know what we know. Period.

Pinecove, that's the English translation. Jancesolo looked at the Japanese and it's the Hyrule language, not the Hylian language.
Want some copy/pasta?

Yes. Has Jancesolo translated the ALttP Hylian? I'd be curios to see what it was.....

Originally Posted by FSA thing translated

最近の　若者は ハイラル語を　忘れつつあります。 なんとも　悲しいものです…。 あの　すばらしい　ハイラル語を もう一度　思い出してもらおうと ハイラル後テストを　始めました!
Young people these days are forgetting the Hyrulian Language. It is quite sad... So that that wonderful language would be rememberd once again, I have started a Hyrulian Language Test!

Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad... In an effort to preserve our beautiful ancient tongue, I've made a language exam.

Originally Posted by Jacensolo06

Note: The Japanese here uses ハイラル語 to refer to the language which literally means "Hyrule Language". In WW the Deku tree refers to the ancient Hylian as ハイリア語 which literally means "Hylia Language".

Originally Posted by language thing in aLttP translated

If you have the Book Of Mudora
you can read the language of
the Hylia People.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Doesn't matter.

We know what we know. Period.

Not to sound mean, but that sounds very stubborn. :p
What do we know? We certainly don't know if FSA was intended to be CT or AT. And I also dont see how how FSA's map being "non canon" (I think you mean that the island form is merely artistic...non canon is something different) tell us anything about LoZ and AoL.

Yes. Has Jancesolo translated the ALttP Hylian? I'd be curios to see what it was.....

No what erim meant was that he has translated the quotes talking about the lost hylian language, and has found out that it talks about the lost hyrulian language. Which renders the whole language argument alot less valid.

@Erimgard: Does this mean that FSA was never meant to be the SW?...no that can't be right.

However what does this mean?

Not to sound mean, but that sounds very stubborn. :p
What do we know? We certainly don't know if FSA was intended to be CT or AT. And I also dont see how how FSA's map being "non canon" (I think you mean that the island form is merely artistic...non canon is something different) tell us anything about LoZ and AoL.

We know FSA was supposed to be the SW.
We know that FSA has interesting removed bits of test.
Aka: we can draw conclusions from there.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

FSA's beta map was on an island when FSA was still a CT game being the SW. Therefore FSA's map isn't Canon because it was meant to be on an island even when a CT game.

Because Nintendo cares so much about the timeline that they couldn't possibly have a game that takes place on an island on the CT.

Originally Posted by Impossible

The point isn't that it's not canon. The point is that it's not story. It's art/gameplay. Unrelated to story and unrelated to the Zelda series storywriters.

Right, because the different development groups never talk to eachother. Also, gameplay ties in directly with the Story. If Link goes to the beach, he goes to the beach, not the mountains. I guess the story team talked about the locations Link was going to and made sure the art team included them in the map, which makes the map canon... but not entirely? Damn, I bet the story developers totally missed the uncanon parts of the map and let those mistakes slip.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Just for the record, the language being forgotten in FSA's removed text is the "Hyrule language". The language that is said to be forgotten in aLttP/WW is "the Hylian language".

Wait, removed text?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

FSA's beta map was on an island when FSA was still a CT game being the SW. Therefore FSA's map isn't Canon because it was meant to be on an island even when a CT game.

Prove it was supposed to be a CT game.

The language is the Hylian tounge. It already died in TWW, so it can't be revived.

Oh really? Ever heard of the Hebrew language? It was dead and now it is the language spoken by an entire people. Also, the last time I checked Latin was dead, yet some people can speak it...

LoZ/AoL being last, relies on the asumption of growing land. If FSA's map isn't Canon, then that means new Hyrule always had mountains, hense the growth of land, doesn't even matter.

"LoZ/AoL being last relies on the assumption"?

It is late because of a series of facts, that includes a better state of the triforce, a nice Ganon continuation, a good placement for LoZ BS and AoL BS and working geography.

[quoteIf FSA was on the AT in the beta stages, then we have this.

OoT (Hylian, stron and health)-TWW(Dead, forgotten language)-FSA (Hylian dying)-ALttP(Dead again).[/quote]

Different hylian languages, maybe?
And why can't the dead language from TWW still be known by people? Latin is dead and some people know it...

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Except FSA
-on the CT
-as the IW

has never been proven, only speculated.

Not even hinted....

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Doesn't matter.

We know what we know. Period.

No, you, apparently, know what you want to know. Without proof that's purely fanon, you know....

Originally Posted by bitterlime

What do we know? We certainly don't know if FSA was intended to be CT or AT. And I also dont see how how FSA's map being "non canon" (I think you mean that the island form is merely artistic...non canon is something different) tell us anything about LoZ and AoL.

Thank you. Why can't people understand that kind of thing...

No what erim meant was that he has translated the quotes talking about the lost hylian language, and has found out that it talks about the lost hyrulian language. Which renders the whole language argument alot less valid.

I really do believe that is a reference to the original OoT Hylian. It was dead, but not necesserily forgotten. The Book of Mudora existed after all...

Originally Posted by Pinecove

@Erimgard: Does this mean that FSA was never meant to be the SW?...no that can't be right.

Not only that, but FSA was never supposed to come in the YT either. That's why it was an island in the beta version...

We know FSA was supposed to be the SW.
We know that FSA has interesting removed bits of test.
Aka: we can draw conclusions from there.

Proof that FSA being the SW meant it had to come in the YT?

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

Right, because the different development groups never talk to eachother. Also, gameplay ties in directly with the Story. If Link goes to the beach, he goes to the beach, not the mountains. I guess the story team talked about the locations Link was going to and made sure the art team included them in the map, which makes the map canon... but not entirely? Damn, I bet the story developers totally missed the uncanon parts of the map and let those mistakes slip.

But we have no confirmation that FSA came in the CT in the early stages of development

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Doesn't matter.

You were saying that FSA on the CT and the fact that it used to be the IW were both proven. Fact is, neither has been proven.

Yes. Has Jancesolo translated the ALttP Hylian? I'd be curios to see what it was.....

The ALttP Hylian was a bunch of random hieroglyphics, even in the original version.

We know that FSA has interesting removed bits of test.
Aka: we can draw conclusions from there.

We know that FSA used to have the Master Sword and seven sages in it. Big deal; so did ALttP, so did OoT. If all the games with the Master Sword and seven sages were the IW, there'd be three of them, one of which comes after it.

Putting a game on an island seems to me to be a smart programming decision; they don't need to put in invisible walls as much. In TWW there were limits on going beyond the map, in OoT there are literal walls as part of the terrain, and LttP had similar terrain walls. In LA, however, the perception was different since it had sea barriers in all directions. Water makes a better barrier than an arbitrary line.


For that reason, we might disregard the fact that it's on an island since the devs had a good reason to put it there.

EDIT: why would we translate the LttP hylian, if we already know what it says from the book of Mudora?

Originally Posted by rhakiath

Putting a game on an island seems to me to be a smart programming decision; they don't need to put in invisible walls as much. In TWW there were limits on going beyond the map, in OoT there are literal walls as part of the terrain, and LttP had similar terrain walls. In LA, however, the perception was different since it had sea barriers in all directions. Water makes a better barrier than an arbitrary line.


For that reason, we might disregard the fact that it's on an island since the devs had a good reason to put it there.

EDIT: why would we translate the LttP hylian, if we already know what it says from the book of Mudora?

But, then why not do that again in TMC and TP?

In TP the map is fairly big and the devs, like in TWW, didn't have to worry about being claustrophobic from barriers. Plus, it was based off of OoT's map completely so they could have chosen to leave it alone rather than add water.

In TMC, I guess that the mini world was enough to add a bit of depth, I think it was based heavily off of LttP in terms of structure and playing style, and also off of OoT to a lesser extent.

We know FSA was supposed to be the SW.

Most likley yes.

We know that FSA has interesting removed bits of test.

Indeed it does.

Aka: we can draw conclusions from there.

And that conclusion is that is once was meant to be the seal war, this does however not mean that it was originally meant to come on the childtimeline. I don't see the logic transgression here.
You are dismissing the possibility that FSA was meant to be the seal war and was intended to come on the adult timeline. And I honestly don't get why that is being dismissed so easiely.
I have nothing against that idea, but it seems like it's being pushed as absolute by some here.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I have nothing against that idea, but it seems like it's being pushed as absolute by some here.

I won't point any fingers. ;D
(should be obvious who anyway)