Prove FSA map is not canon and more

If I type poorly, or start swearing it's because I'm tired.

Because Nintendo cares so much about the timeline that they couldn't possibly have a game that takes place on an island on the CT.

Exactly.

The CT Hyrule makes no sence to take place on an island.

It is late because of a series of facts, that includes a better state of the triforce, a nice Ganon continuation, a good placement for LoZ BS and AoL BS and working geography.

-No Ganon continuation. That continuation is ruined by AST.
-AoLBS works perfectly for LoZ early.
-Continuation of Geography and familiar place > Map comparisons.

Not only that, but FSA was never supposed to come in the YT either. That's why it was an island in the beta version...

So FSA was never made to be the Sw now?!?!
Give me a ****ing break.

You were saying that FSA on the CT and the fact that it used to be the IW were both proven. Fact is, neither has been proven.

But we know they were. At least the SW part.

Oh really? Ever heard of the Hebrew language? It was dead and now it is the language spoken by an entire people. Also, the last time I checked Latin was dead, yet some people can speak it...

The ****ing Hebrew language, and the ****ing Hylian language are two completely different things. The Hebrew language was recorded in ancient scriptures which people could still read, and some people still knew it, whereas the Hylian language is completely forgotten.

There is no-one who can speak it, except the King, Ganondorf and the dieties. The former dying at the end of TWW, and the latter dieties never being visited by anyone. The GDT's area is supposedly surrounded by monsters.

Valoo's area isn't even thought to EXIST of windfall.

And Jabun is in hiding at windfall only known to a select few.

Hylian is completely forgotten by the end of TWW. Get, The ****, over it.

The ALttP Hylian was a bunch of random hieroglyphics, even in the original version.

Erm...I meant the WORD "Hylian" and the bit of text with the language being forgotten.

Putting a game on an island seems to me to be a smart programming decision; they don't need to put in invisible walls as much. In TWW there were limits on going beyond the map, in OoT there are literal walls as part of the terrain, and LttP had similar terrain walls. In LA, however, the perception was different since it had sea barriers in all directions. Water makes a better barrier than an arbitrary line.


For that reason, we might disregard the fact that it's on an island since the devs had a good reason to put it there.

QFT.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

But we know they were. At least the SW part.

FSA has sages and the Master Sword
therefore, FSA is the SW.

By that logic,

OoT has sages and the Master Sword
therefore, OoT is the SW.

TP has sages and the Master Sword,
therefore, TP is the SW.

ALttP has sages and the Master Sword
therefore, ALttP is the SW.

Fact is, one of these games was stated to be the IW (1998), one of these games was stated to have references to the IW (2005), and one of these games is confirmed to come after the IW (1991, 2003). None of these games is FSA.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Exactly.

The CT Hyrule makes no sence to take place on an island.

I was being sarcastic... seriously, Miyamoto and Aonuma have both stated that the timeline is not that big of a concern when they develop the games. in fact, that's the least of their concerns. Also, you might want to consider what I said to impossible. Your reason for claiming the FSA map isn't canon depends on these 2 things:

1) The team was very concerned about FSA's timeline placement.
2) They just happened to miss the map's big ocean that wasn't supposed to be there, but they made sure everything else was in place. Oopsie, how silly us japanese can be, letting something easily noticable we're so concerned about slip.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

So FSA was never made to be the Sw now?!?!
Give me a ****ing break.

This is exactly the part that I am trying to make you guys see. FSA = planed as seal war =/= planed to be on the childtimeline

I remember you responded to this already. But I'll be sincere that I don't remember exactly what you said though. So, if possible, could you copy and paste what you said in that thread (there was a lot of things being discussed there) or say it again? If it is not, just drop that.

I don't know where I posted it, so I doubt I can. For now, until I properly write up everything I have to say on the matter (which I have nearly done), just look at Erimgard's post.

Just for the record, the language being forgotten in FSA's removed text is the "Hyrule language". The language that is said to be forgotten in aLttP/WW is "the Hylian language".

Honestly, while the difference is odd, I think this is nitpicking a bit. I doubt that it's significant.

Because Nintendo cares so much about the timeline that they couldn't possibly have a game that takes place on an island on the CT.

1) The team was very concerned about FSA's timeline placement.
2) They just happened to miss the map's big ocean that wasn't supposed to be there, but they made sure everything else was in place.

I can't even tell what your point is here. Nintendo don't care enough about the timeline to ensure perfect consistency in all details, at least, not when they aren't story details (like a map). They didn't "miss" it, the ocean was just suited to the game design.

Right, because the different development groups never talk to eachother. Also, gameplay ties in directly with the Story. If Link goes to the beach, he goes to the beach, not the mountains. I guess the story team talked about the locations Link was going to and made sure the art team included them in the map, which makes the map canon... but not entirely? Damn, I bet the story developers totally missed the uncanon parts of the map and let those mistakes slip.

It's not a mistake. It's an artistic choice.

Oh really? Ever heard of the Hebrew language? It was dead and now it is the language spoken by an entire people. Also, the last time I checked Latin was dead, yet some people can speak it...

This doesn't make any sense. Pulling a Lex with the inappropriate real world references... Ancient Hebrew is a different form of the language. It didn't die, it evolved. Latin is a dead language. People can still speak it, just as some in TWW could speak Hylian. That doesn't mean it isn't dead. In FSA, it's not dead, it's still fading out of common usage, with someone trying to preserve it. I don't see this as the crux of the argument or something that must be true to prove this. All I'm doing is explaining why it's a valid point.

LoZ/AoL being last, relies on the asumption of growing land.

"Growing land" is kind of bull****, though. Joining the islands wouldn't cause land to continue growing outward from the joined islands. This is why the whole argument using the geography of those games is a bit over the top, and way too detailed to have ever been intended.

This is exactly the part that I am having trouble to understand. Why is it proof that they see the 2D games on the childtimeline? You are dissmissing the possibility that FSA was intended to be the seal war, but at the same time was intended to be after WW. And I don't see why you are dissmissing it and claiming this is proof of them seeing the 2D games on the childtimeline.

This is exactly the part that I am trying to make you guys see. FSA = planed as seal war =/= planed to be on the childtimeline

If FSA was intended to be the IW, why would it be on the AT? What's the rationale for the placement? So if we try to place FSA independently, ignoring all these IW ideas about OoT, an artistic detail of its map is more important than the fact that on the CT, Hyrule still exists? Surely the latter wins out there.

The whole point is that many people now believe the OoT-ALttP connection has been retconned in certain ways - in fact, EVERYONE is forced to accept that it has been retconned in certain ways, it's just that people disagree on the ways that was done. I favour the connections that are actually still possible. If FSA was perceived by the development team as the IW for most of its development, that means they no longer perceive OoT being the IW as relevant (something which I find self-evidence in TWW and its ending).

All known evidence shows that the changes to the FSA story were not for timeline reasons - we know that Nintendo care much more about the individual game story. These minor changes to FSA wouldn't justify changing the timeline placements of at least half the games in the series. Hence, while the story may have had a lot of elements removed, it's still a prequel to ALttP on the Child Timeline.

I still can't wrap my head around the claim that FSA's artistic use of a map as a border is more significant than the entire point of the story of TWW and the most important story events in the entire game. FSA is set in Hyrule. A Hyrule which, during development, seemed identical to that of the IW - right down to Ganon picking off the Knights of Hyrule. Also, we know that FSA is the origins of ALttP Ganon. The IW is the origins of ALttP Ganon. Combine that with sages and (seemingly) the Sacred Realm, and the Master Sword despite that fact that Link was using the Four Sword, and it's a bit better than purely being a theory. It's an inference. How can having so many identical elements to the IW (despite Lex's straw man only acknowledging a couple of them) be a coincidence when we know that FSA shows the origins of ALttP's Ganon?

By the way, if FSA's geography is THAT important that it can determine the whole timeline... I should point out that the actual geography is far more important than the border. And going by that, FSA is in the same Hyrule as ALttP. Going by that, ALttP is in the same Hyrule as OoT. Geography proves that they are in the same Hyrule, so the "island" idea is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Impossible

I can't even tell what your point is here. Nintendo don't care enough about the timeline to ensure perfect consistency in all details, at least, not when they aren't story details (like a map). They didn't "miss" it, the ocean was just suited to the game design.

It's not a mistake. It's an artistic choice.

I don't think it was just an artistic choice. We know for a fact there is an ocean in FSA, and there's an ocean on the map. Thus I see no reason to consider an unspecified amount of the ocean not canon while part of it clearly is. Also, does this apply to FSA only or is any map location we can't visit not canon?

I don't see any reason to doubt the canonity of FSA's map to begin with unless you doubt all maps' canonity. No data conflicts FSA's map to my knowledge.

Originally Posted by Impossible

This doesn't make any sense. Pulling a Lex with the inappropriate real world references... Ancient Hebrew is a different form of the language. It didn't die, it evolved. Latin is a dead language. People can still speak it, just as some in TWW could speak Hylian. That doesn't mean it isn't dead. In FSA, it's not dead, it's still fading out of common usage, with someone trying to preserve it. I don't see this as the crux of the argument or something that must be true to prove this. All I'm doing is explaining why it's a valid point.

Oh, don't talk about something you don't know. Hebrew was dead until the 19th century and was used by Jews as a liturgical language pretty much like Latin was to catholics.

Read it here if you don't believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival...ebrew_language

Languages can be revived...

"Growing land" is kind of bull****, though.

The GDT disagrees...

If FSA was intended to be the IW, why would it be on the AT? What's the rationale for the placement? So if we try to place FSA independently, ignoring all these IW ideas about OoT, an artistic detail of its map is more important than the fact that on the CT, Hyrule still exists? Surely the latter wins out there.

Hyrule can also exist in the AT too, so FSA being the IW doesn't prove anything...

By the way, if FSA's geography is THAT important that it can determine the whole timeline... I should point out that the actual geography is far more important than the border. And going by that, FSA is in the same Hyrule as ALttP. Going by that, ALttP is in the same Hyrule as OoT. Geography proves that they are in the same Hyrule, so the "island" idea is irrelevant.

That could work, except for the fact that FSA Hyrule is in an island. I mean, before TWW, there was no flood yet, so the timeline made sense:
...../-LttP--->
OoT
.....\--->

Then they released TWW and weakened the OoT:LttP connections. How would Hyrule still exist in the AT if the flood happened?

That changed when FSA came out. It clearly showed that Hyrule became what it was before again, so that the OoT:LttP geography could work. That's my opinion though. FSA is a good bridge linking OoT-TWW back to LttP...

Originally Posted by Impossible

I still can't wrap my head around the claim that FSA's artistic use of a map as a border is more significant than the entire point of the story of TWW and the most important story events in the entire game.

Okay, this is where you and I differ on the scale of what is important in these debates. The only thing that shows the "entire point" of TWW being (any and every) Hyrule disappearing forever is your own analysis. Granted, it's an analysis that many would also come to, but the point is that, short of confirmation from the writers of a work, identifying things like themes and the purpose of a work is almost entirely subjective.

And, in my opinion, anything that can be seen and unequivocably shown to be true automatically trumps anything that might be subjective, no matter how minor it is. It is a fact that a sea surrounds FSA Hyrule. It is an opinion (however widespread) that TWW was supposed to show the final demise of Hyrule's legacy. Does this mean FSA must be on the AT? Absolutely not. For all we know, Spirit Tracks (or any other future game) could be on the CT and show another flood-related disaster that makes an island-like Hyrule perfectly plausible on the CT. But until something like that does happen, the fact that FSA's geography fits snugly in a recovering post-TWW world is, in my mind, more important than any perceived themes TWW might or might not have.

Of course, with no confirmed scale of what constitutes "better evidence" in a Zelda timeline theory, this post is in itself just as much of an opinion as yours. Maybe themes are more important than geography. But I doubt it.

I don't see any reason to doubt the canonity of FSA's map to begin with unless you doubt all maps' canonity. No data conflicts FSA's map to my knowledge.

Must I keep repeating myself? I never said it wasn't canon. I said it's not story related. And yes, data does conflict with FSA's map: TMC's map and ALttP's map. Geography is not consistent, even when Hyrule is the same.

Oh, don't talk about something you don't know. Hebrew was dead until the 19th century and was used by Jews as a liturgical language pretty much like Latin was to catholics.

You missed the part where these real life examples are irrelevant garbage, as they don't apply to the situation of Hyrule in a completely different fantasy world with completely different circumstances - including the destruction of Hyrule.

And yes, Hebrew was used as a liturgical language. Er, Hylian wasn't. Hebrew was no longer being commonly used, but it had a particular purpose. However, this doesn't even remotely fit with the idea from that FSA quote, that the language is actually dying out. Unless you think it dies twice? Yeah, not reaching a bit too far there at all...

The GDT disagrees...

Did you actually read my ****ing point, or are you doing another Lex and ignoring the actual argument, pretending to have responded by taking the first sentence out of context and making a meaningless remark? The Great Deku Tree's plan does not include expanding land. It's about joining islands. This doesn't lead to an inexplicable continuous expansion after said islands are joined. Joining islands doesn't go outwards, it goes inwards. Note that Forest Haven has been standing for hundreds of years and hasn't grown.

Hyrule can also exist in the AT too, so FSA being the IW doesn't prove anything...

Theoretically can =/= factually does. How the **** do people miss the fact that there's speculation involved in saying there's Hyrule after TWW? This is one case where I actually do think the above statement is relevant: "anything that can be seen and unequivocably shown to be true automatically trumps anything that might be subjective, no matter how minor it is". Er, anyway, the reason why that applies here is because the absolutely true thing is not minor, and the subjective evidence IS, so it's just the opposite. With that in mind...

And, in my opinion, anything that can be seen and unequivocably shown to be true automatically trumps anything that might be subjective, no matter how minor it is. It is a fact that a sea surrounds FSA Hyrule.

This is a massive, gaping, horrific fallacy. As long as you go by this interpretation, you'll never come close to the intended timeline, because intent must be analysed and understood first. For the record, "FSA shows a Hyrule after TWW" is 100% subjective speculation. And I've already shown how baseless it is. If that's true, why the hell does FSA not once hint at it? Why didn't they insert references to TWW or the joining islands in the story so that we would know? Themes are sure as hell more important than geography, because despite what you seem to be claiming, geography's importance is also understood subjectively, depending on what can be seen as intent. And geography, unlike major themes, is incredibly minor and often unrelated to the story.

Originally Posted by Impossible

This is a massive, gaping, horrific fallacy. As long as you go by this interpretation, you'll never come close to the intended timeline, because intent must be analysed and understood first. For the record, "FSA shows a Hyrule after TWW" is 100% subjective speculation. And I've already shown how baseless it is. If that's true, why the hell does FSA not once hint at it? Why didn't they insert references to TWW or the joining islands in the story so that we would know? Themes are sure as hell more important than geography, because despite what you seem to be claiming, geography's importance is also understood subjectively, depending on what can be seen as intent. And geography, unlike major themes, is incredibly minor and often unrelated to the story.

Notice that I never said FSA had to follow TWW. I simply said that FSA Hyrule is surrounded by water, and that that would fit in with a recovering post-TWW world. This is true, whether it actually takes place post-TWW or not. Oh, and how is what I posted in any way a fallacy? It's the basis of modern scientific thought: something observed is always to be trusted over something conjectured.

Also, you talk about intent as if it is this monolithic entity that governs the timeline, but it's not. The games govern the timeline. Intent can change over time (you yourself have acknowledged that by saying that OoT is no longer the IW), but barring enhanced rereleases, the games stay the same. Add to this the fact that developer intent isn't always as crystal clear as you seem to believe, and I'll trust the games themselves over what the developers might have been trying to say.

The GDT disagrees...

You give a real life example of something that apparently applies to FSA then you say that the GDTs plan, which is pretty much impossible for forests to do on their own, is evidence against us? Unless I'm mistaken you're being a hypocrite.

Anyways, TMC as first and FSA in the AT really doesn't make much sense. So if you place FSA in the AT then TMC clearly comes before it. Which means FSAs map can't be evidence because it would have been clearly retconned by TMC.

You know what's interesting? I may just be grasping at straws here, but I think I may have noticed something. The SW is stated to be surrounded by forests and mountains. Since FSA was clearly the SW but the game developers showed it as an island in the beta wouldn't that make it have nothing to do with the story?

Add to this the fact that developer intent isn't always as crystal clear as you seem to believe, and I'll trust the games themselves over what the developers might have been trying to say.

Yeah, except I bet most of that intent has to do with things Aonuma may have put in. Not some random thing a developer put in.

Although, I do some-what agree. It is hard to decide what is intent and what isn't.

I see no reason for the Hylian language to die twice.

Originally Posted by Impossible

Honestly, while the difference is odd, I think this is nitpicking a bit. I doubt that it's significant.

I don't think it should be insignificant, to be honest you are just dissmissing it now because it weakens your argument about FSA being impossible after WW.That seems selective to me.
After all Hylian and Hyrulian are not the same thing.

If FSA was intended to be the IW, why would it be on the AT? What's the rationale for the placement? So if we try to place FSA independently, ignoring all these IW ideas about OoT, an artistic detail of its map is more important than the fact that on the CT, Hyrule still exists? Surely the latter wins out there.

Why would it not be on the AT? Since the map is depicted as an island, even when it was still the seal war, we should all consider the possibility that they wanted to repair the broken connection between OoT and ALttP.
Aonuma clearly was aware of the problem that nether the CT nor the AT could eficently set up for ALttP. So he either wanted to move the seal war closer to ALttP or to the other timelien branch entirely.
All the possibilities were open to him, he had an existing Hyrule and another timeline with a flooded world with hints at a new Hyrule.
One would think that it would be easier to go for the CT, yet the game takes place o and island (well from the map artists point of view). I doubt they would have let that slip. Aditionally FSA creates several issues when taking place on the chbild timeline. Mainly surounding Ganondorf, the Gerudos and the Mirror of darkness/twilight mirror.
I'm not opposed to the 2D games coming on the child timeline, but it bothers me that your approach seems one sided.
Here is my honest opinion on it:
Nintendo did what they do best, namely being vague and cameoish to an extend where they can pull either version of the story out of there buttholes without getting in bigger trouble.
We all know the value gamplay over timeline, so having a vague timeline with several possible connections to be made aids their goals.
I wouldn't be suprised if their "master document" is nothing but several timelines that they consider possible, and that they can choose from however it fits the needs of the newest game.

The whole point is that many people now believe the OoT-ALttP connection has been retconned in certain ways - in fact, EVERYONE is forced to accept that it has been retconned in certain ways, it's just that people disagree on the ways that was done. I favour the connections that are actually still possible. If FSA was perceived by the development team as the IW for most of its development, that means they no longer perceive OoT being the IW as relevant (something which I find self-evidence in TWW and its ending).

And yet FSA ended up not being the seal war. You said the change was not for timeline reasons, but for simplicity of the story line.
In all honesty, the seal war story could have been conveyed in FSA, with out complicating the whole thing. So it is rather fishy.

All known evidence shows that the changes to the FSA story were not for timeline reasons - we know that Nintendo care much more about the individual game story. These minor changes to FSA wouldn't justify changing the timeline placements of at least half the games in the series. Hence, while the story may have had a lot of elements removed, it's still a prequel to ALttP on the Child Timeline.

It is still a prequel to ALttP, but it being on the CT is nothing but your analysis and stance, you should stop spreading it as factual.

Theoretically can =/= factually does. How the **** do people miss the fact that there's speculation involved in saying there's Hyrule after TWW?

I think we all full well know it does.

Originally Posted by Som

Anyways, TMC as first and FSA in the AT really doesn't make much sense. So if you place FSA in the AT then TMC clearly comes before it. Which means FSAs map can't be evidence because it would have been clearly retconned by TMC.

I'm not sure what to get from that. Are you using your placement of tMC to justify your placement of FSA? Sorry is I missunderstand. I think I didn't get what you meant.

Originally Posted by Impossible

Must I keep repeating myself? I never said it wasn't canon. I said it's not story related.

And I said part of it has to be story related, since in the story, Link goes to a bunch of locations, including the beach, which are on the map and therefore canon. So again - are all parts we don't visit in-game not story related? Surely we can't say with a 100% certainty but I think it's somewhat farfetched to go and say that it's not story-related because the different development groups (art and story in this case) didn't plan that in common.

I work in game development. I don't work with the guy who makes the maps but I know what he's doing because we work closely together at all times to make a consistant game and the Zelda team is no different.

And yes, data does conflict with FSA's map: TMC's map and ALttP's map. Geography is not consistent, even when Hyrule is the same.

Geography change in every game because it can't stay the same for gameplay purposes. But saying which map is canon and which map is not canon/not accurate because of other maps... I don't agree with that. If any map should be inaccurate it should be TMC since it was not developed by Nintendo. Why should their changes be acceptable truth, while a game that Aonuma was on should not?

Originally Posted by Impossible

Must I keep repeating myself? I never said it wasn't canon. I said it's not story related. And yes, data does conflict with FSA's map: TMC's map and ALttP's map. Geography is not consistent, even when Hyrule is the same.

Pinecove said it wasn't canon. We all know you didn't...

Could you explain that last part to me? Geography is consistent. the mountain is a 2-peak mountain in all those three games, for example. The only thing that doesn't fit is the ocean surrounding FSA Hyrule. And that can easily be explained by the GDT quote:

Originally Posted by GDT

"Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world."

He says the trees have the power to make islands bigger. That's proven fact.

You missed the part where these real life examples are irrelevant garbage, as they don't apply to the situation of Hyrule in a completely different fantasy world with completely different circumstances - including the destruction of Hyrule.

And yes, Hebrew was used as a liturgical language. Er, Hylian wasn't. Hebrew was no longer being commonly used, but it had a particular purpose. However, this doesn't even remotely fit with the idea from that FSA quote, that the language is actually dying out. Unless you think it dies twice? Yeah, not reaching a bit too far there at all...

No, I didn't miss that part. I said that because you said there is no possible way a dead language can be revived. So I WAS NOT TRYING TO PROVE THAT HYLIAN WAS REVIVED. I was just proving that you were wrong when you said what you said. If anyone doesn't believe me, jhere is what you said:

Originally Posted by Impossible

This doesn't make any sense. Pulling a Lex with the inappropriate real world references... Ancient Hebrew is a different form of the language. It didn't die, it evolved. Latin is a dead language. People can still speak it, just as some in TWW could speak Hylian. That doesn't mean it isn't dead.

Hebrew died exactly like Latin did. So languages [u][i][b]CAN be revived. So none of what you said on the matter is valid.

The quote from FSA says:
"Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad...
In an effort to preserve our beautiful ancient tongue, I've made a language exam."
And you yourself said people in TWW know the ancient Hylian, it is just not used.

What I'm trying to say is this:
The language died before TWW, meaning it ran out of native speakers; but it was not forgotten. People knew it and continued to study it, even though the new language was the one used now. By the time of FSA, as the ancient language was not used anymore, less people knew it (the kids, seeing the language as useless, quit learning it). So the language wasn't dying in FSA. It was a dead language that had less and less people who know it. The process of people forgetting the language started when the language died (before TWW) and went on until LttP.

You are arguing that the language wasn't dead in FSA because some people still knew it, but later you said this:

Originally Posted by Impossible

People can still speak it, just as some in TWW could speak Hylian

It is the same situation. You are contradicting yourself too much...

Did you actually read my ****ing point, or are you doing another Lex and ignoring the actual argument, pretending to have responded by taking the first sentence out of context and making a meaningless remark?

no comment

The Great Deku Tree's plan does not include expanding land. It's about joining islands. This doesn't lead to an inexplicable continuous expansion after said islands are joined. Joining islands doesn't go outwards, it goes inwards. Note that Forest Haven has been standing for hundreds of years and hasn't grown.

"Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world."

You are ignoring the bold, which means you are the one taking the quotes out of context.

All islands will become one. The GDT says that as a fact. It doesn't matter if the water level will drop, the land will rise or the islands will move to merge. The important part is that [all] the islands WILL become one large continent.

So the GDT specifically says that the trees will continue to merge islands untill all of them are together. Stop saying the process will stop at some point or present evidence supporting that.

Theoretically can =/= factually does.

You affirmed that, if FSA is (or was supposed to be at some point) the SW, it and LttP no longer had to come in the AT (I agree until here), so it had, by logics [!], to come in the CT (this is the part that makes no sense, there could be FSA being the SW and LttP in the AT too.)

I know you have adressed to that, just wanted to make sure this was clear.

How the **** do people miss the fact that there's speculation involved in saying there's Hyrule after TWW?

There is speculation in saying that there is an ocean in the CT as well. The only two games confirmed to be in the CT (OoT and TP, MM doesn't count because it is a different world) have no ocean visible in leagues and leagues of distance ahead.

You are biasing your views by taking that one assumption is better than the other...

Originally Posted by Som

You give a real life example of something that apparently applies to FSA then you say that the GDTs plan, which is pretty much impossible for forests to do on their own, is evidence against us? Unless I'm mistaken you're being a hypocrite.

For goodness sake, read the posts. I was not using real life examples to prove something about the timeline. I used it to prove that Impossible was wrong. He clearly said (and affirmed) that languages cannot be revived. I gave an example of a language that was revived.

Why can't you people read what is being discussed before attacking us?

Anyways, TMC as first and FSA in the AT really doesn't make much sense. So if you place FSA in the AT then TMC clearly comes before it. Which means FSAs map can't be evidence because it would have been clearly retconned by TMC.

Let's start again here. Why on earth can't TMC come first and FSA be in the AT?

You know what's interesting? I may just be grasping at straws here, but I think I may have noticed something. The SW is stated to be surrounded by forests and mountains. Since FSA was clearly the SW but the game developers showed it as an island in the beta wouldn't that make it have nothing to do with the story?

Prove that FSA was clearly supposed to be the IW.
What do you mean by the "SW is surrounded by forests and mountains"? Wars are not geographical locations...

Yeah, except I bet most of that intent has to do with things Aonuma may have put in. Not some random thing a developer put in.

Fun fact: Aonuma doesn't write the story of the games...

I see no reason for the Hylian language to die twice.

Me neither. The language was dead prior to TWW, but clearly not forgotten. In FSA, it was still not forgotten, but in the process of being forgotten (less people knowing it). By the time of LttP only scholars knew it, so it was pretty much forgotten already.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I don't think it should be insignificant, to be honest you are just dissmissing it now because it weakens your argument about FSA being impossible after WW.That seems selective to me.
After all Hylian and Hyrulian are not the same thing.

There is that too. I remember that I read an interview with Dan Owsen in ZL a few days ago in which he made sure to differ Hyrulian from Hylian.

So there is a possibility (a very probable one, actually) that the "dying language" from FSA is not the ancient Hylian from OoT, considering Hylians are gone in LttP's timeline; but the Hyrulean language from New Hyrule (probably the language from TWW). That would mean it was 2 different languages that died, not one language that died twice.

A question for Impossible: (this is in red, so you can see it, considering I am replying to someone else's post right now)
What caused the Hylians to leave Hyrule and spread all across the world in your timeline? In my opinion that is clearly because of the flood, but I want to hear your views on this (hopefully with in-game evidence and as few assumptions as possible)...

Why would it not be on the AT? Since the map is depicted as an island, even when it was still the seal war, we should all consider the possibility that they wanted to repair the broken connection between OoT and ALttP.

Didin't you understand Impossible is trying to prove that his timeline is not biased by showing false evidence? His logics makes no sense whatsoever:

"If FSA was meant to be the SW in the early stages of development, it was clearly supposed to come in the CT, even though it was an island since then"

Aditionally FSA creates several issues when taking place on the chbild timeline. Mainly surounding Ganondorf, the Gerudos and the Mirror of darkness/twilight mirror.

What is the Ganondorf and the gerudos issues?

I'm not opposed to the 2D games coming on the child timeline, but it bothers me that your approach seems one sided.

^seconded

It is still a prequel to ALttP, but it being on the CT is nothing but your analysis and stance, you should stop spreading it as factual.

...and you should stop saying that we are the ones presenting our views as fact.

This was meant for impossible btw. Just continuing bitterlime's sentence...

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

And I said part of it has to be story related, since in the story, Link goes to a bunch of locations, including the beach, which are on the map and therefore canon.

ditto
Pinecove, please read this.

Geography change in every game because it can't stay the same for gameplay purposes.

And yet all maps show some similarities.

If any map should be inaccurate it should be TMC since it was not developed by Nintendo.

Makes better sense, doesn't it?

For goodness sake, read the posts. I was not using real life examples to prove something about the timeline. I used it to prove that Impossible was wrong. He clearly said (and affirmed) that languages cannot be revived. I gave an example of a language that was revived.

Why can't you people read what is being discussed before attacking us?

I was tired

I'm not sure what to get from that. Are you using your placement of tMC to justify your placement of FSA? Sorry is I missunderstand. I think I didn't get what you meant.

I'm saying that there's no reason to put TMC first and FSA in the AT. Since they have to be on the same timeline then if you place FSA on the AT then there should be the TMC--FS/FSA arc somewhere. Well since TMC has more land than FSA, FSAs map was clearly retconned.

Let's start again here. Why on earth can't TMC come first and FSA be in the AT?

It just makes no sense. I mean it would cause both the MS and the FS to be lost underwater. Which is an assumption I'm (no longer) willing to believe. All the evidence for TMC as first works if TMC is the first game on the AT.

Fun fact: Aonuma doesn't write the story of the games...

He's the one trying (sort of...) to make all the games fit together.

Prove that FSA was clearly supposed to be the IW.
What do you mean by the "SW is surrounded by forests and mountains"? Wars are not geographical locations...

I'd say it's pretty clear that it was meant to be the SW...

Originally Posted by LttP

Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,

Me neither. The language was dead prior to TWW, but clearly not forgotten. In FSA, it was still not forgotten, but in the process of being forgotten (less people knowing it). By the time of LttP only scholars knew it, so it was pretty much forgotten already.

You're saying that TWW happens and there's a gigantic flood and the language dies but isn't forgotten. Then the language begins to get used again but this time is completely forgotten for no apparent reason? No way in hell I can believe that.

Originally Posted by Som

I'm saying that there's no reason to put TMC first and FSA in the AT. Since they have to be on the same timeline then if you place FSA on the AT then there should be the TMC--FS/FSA arc somewhere. Well since TMC has more land than FSA, FSAs map was clearly retconned.

But if TMC is first and FSA is in the AT, they will still be in the same timeline! So TMC---FS/FSA would still happen...

All the evidence for TMC as first works if TMC is the first game on the AT.

I have to agree here. But you mean the first game in New Hyrule, right?

You're saying that TWW happens and there's a gigantic flood and the language dies but isn't forgotten. Then the language begins to get used again but this time is completely forgotten for no apparent reason? No way in hell I can believe that.

The language doesn't begin to be used again. It was still dead, but people still knew it. It was forgotten later...

But if TMC is first and FSA is in the AT, they will still be in the same timeline! So TMC---FS/FSA would still happen...

Sure, but there isn't any reason to place TMC first and FSA on the AT just for the map when it was pretty clearly retconned.

I have to agree here. But you mean the first game in New Hyrule, right?

Yeah.

The language doesn't begin to be used again. It was still dead, but people still knew it. It was forgotten later...

Originally Posted by Beta FSA text

Youngsters these days are forgetting the Hylian tongue. It's so sad...

It's sad that people are forgetting a dead language?

Originally Posted by Som

Sure, but there isn't any reason to place TMC first and FSA on the AT just for the map when it was pretty clearly retconned.

But the map wasn't necesserily retconned. Where did you get that from?

It's sad that people are forgetting a dead language?

Yes. Let me try to explain it. If the language is not dead, it is spoken by a group of individuals, right? Now, let's suppose a language dies on the influence of a foreign language, but it is the national language of the people of that land.

It won't be forgotten, but it will be dead. Like, nobody speaks it as their native language anymore. Still, it is the language of the nation, so people will keep learning and knowing it. It will be preserved. Like it is not the language people speak anymore, but most of them can understand it.

With time, new generations will come, and they will lose interest in the dead language, because they will consider it useless. So less people will know the language. And more generations pass, lesser people will know it. That's how languages get forgotten.

Now, I believe this is the idea the devs wanted to pass with LttP, TWW and FSA.

In LttP, we know that the language died at some point.
In TWW, we know that it died because of the flood, but wasn't forgotten.

In FSA, the language was still dead, but not completely forgotten.

If the language was not dead already, why would people be forgetting it. I mean, it would still be used in conversations. How can a living language be forgotten??

But the map wasn't necesserily retconned. Where did you get that from?

Well there's more land in TMC than FSA... hmm either it makes no sense or it was retconned.

In TWW, we know that it died because of the flood, but wasn't forgotten.

No one except the Deku Tree, KoRL, Valoo, and Jabun knew the Hylian language. So how was it preserved?

In FSA, the language was still dead, but not completely forgotten.

So who was teaching the language?

Originally Posted by Som

Well there's more land in TMC than FSA...

That's not a problem if TMC comes before the flood and FSA comes after it...
like
...../-TWW---FSA
OoT
.....\--->

hmm either it makes no sense or it was retconned.

TMC was not made by the Zelda team from Nintendo. They didn't necesserily know about geographic timeline connectors.

[quote]No one except the Deku Tree, KoRL, Valoo, and Jabun knew the Hylian language. So how was it preserved?[/quotes]

Books.

So who was teaching the language?

The guy who said that quote you provided...

Wait, is that from the beta text? Meaning it is not in the final version? Meaning it is not canon?