Play Devil's Advocate for a second...

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

There are a few conflicts.

-In the DW, you turn into something that best reflects your personality. In TR, it's always a spirit or a monster.

True, however it's worth noting that as far as those spirits were concerned, they were still in Hyrule but inexplicably frightened. To compare like with like, we'd have to compare people who actually went into the Twilit version of Hyrule. The only example is Link: he was brought into the Twilight in a different way from anyone else:

Originally Posted by Midna

Last time, a shadow beast pulled
you through the curtain of
twilight...

But if you want to go that way this
time, you'll need the cooperation
of someone FROM the twilight...
like me!

-Link in the TR transformed into a 'divine beast' not because of personality, but because of the Triforce of Coirage.

That Link was transformed into a beast was the work of the Twilight Realm. That he was transformed into a 'Blue-Eyed' beast was the work of the ToC.

-The Master Sword seems to protect him from transforming. Whereas in ALttP, it was the Moonpearl and the MS had no effect on the transformation.

The Master Sword didn't protect Link from the changing power of the TR. If you remember, after speaking to Lanayru, Zant cursed Link with some shard of Ganon's magic. The Master Sword banished this shard from Link's body, but it still affected him every time he touched it and even when he returned to the Sacred Realm, the clouds of Shadow could still transform him unless he had a Sol to make the Shadow retreat. What's a Sol, you ask? A glowing orb that protects the bearer from the changing power of the... hmm, sounds familiar.

One more thing:

If those portals actually looked [or functioned] the same, that would mean something

Originally Posted by Erimgard

If those portals actually looked [or functioned] the same, that would mean something

I'll give you the difference in appearance (though not so different that they can't be put down to a difference in console), but they DO function the same: entrances to the Dark World/Twilit Hyrule.

And you must admit that the Sols are a little TOO similar to Moon Pearls.

The portals in Twilight Princess are opened and closed at will by the Twili, are they not? And they can be used to exit or enter, can they not?

The portals in aLttP are in fixed locations, do not open and close at will, and only lead inwards.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

The portals in Twilight Princess are opened and closed at will by the Twili, are they not? And they can be used to exit or enter, can they not?

The portals in aLttP are in fixed locations, do not open and close at will, and only lead inwards.

Both types of portal are opened and left open by the bad guys coming out of their respective prison realms. The Twilight Portals don't close as far as I remember: Midna later uses each one of them to teleport herself and Link on top of their role as entrances to Twilit Hyrule.

Both types of portal are in fixed locations.

I will grant you the fact that the ALttP ones only open inwards. Though I suppose the Sage's Seal might be the cause of the DW's nigh-inescapability in ALttP.

Both types of portal are opened and left open by the bad guys coming out of their respective prison realms.

The origin of the blue portals in aLttP is never stated.
I highly doubt they were created by Ganon. As we know, Ganon/Aganhim's plan is to imprison the maidens to break the seal. When they succeed at this, it open's a two-way portal near Hyrule castle, not a one way inward portal like the blue ones. They are neither stated nor implied to be the result of Ganon and his minions.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

The origin of the blue portals in aLttP is never stated.
I highly doubt they were created by Ganon. As we know, Ganon/Aganhim's plan is to imprison the maidens to break the seal. When they succeed at this, it open's a two-way portal near Hyrule castle, not a one way inward portal like the blue ones. They are neither stated nor implied to be the result of Ganon and his minions.

#1- the most pronounced one (with the Hyrule equivalent of crop-circles around it, screaming 'look at me look at me I'm important') is right at the foot of Ganon's Tower.
#2- if Ganon didn't create them and they were always there, why didn't he escape earlier? If Ganon isn't using the portals somehow, how did he augment Agahnim's magic? Or accomplish ANYTHING in the Light World? The portals were the way Ganon managed to escape the seal, just as he escaped the seal on Hyrule in TWW with a portal from his Tower to the Forsaken Fortress.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

The TR is made of floating rocks, while the DW from LttP (the SR) is land-based.

That image shows the room in which the triforce stays in the Pyramid of Light (which was there before Ganon entered the Sr for the first time in OoT, where it is referred to as the Temple of Light). Notice that the collumns are not floating, but going all the way to the ground across the gas clouds. There is also a ceilar.

Anyway, the TR per se can't transform you into a wolf, only the 'darkness' waterfalls present there could, and the darkness spread from the TR (aka TC) over the Light World.

IMO, there is only one kind of darkness, that can be spread over the different realms to create "Dark Worlds". Ganon did so in the SR, making it his "Dark World" in the AT. Later (or maybe before - I still have to annalyse some OoT quotes) he did the same by spreading darkness over the forest and adjascent areas in FSA.

In the CT, Ganon never entered the SR, meaning he needed to corrupt other realms to create his "Dark Worlds". He did so in the TR, using Zant to steal the sols (the TR is a 'Dark World' by default if the sols are not there, unlike the SR) , and, later, Hyrule itself, using the TC.

The portals in TP don't transport you from Hyrule to the TR, but to another region of Hyrule. That's why they are not the same as the blue tiles from LttP (which are, btw, on the floor instead of the air). The only portal to the TR is the mirror and it looks nothing like the blue tiles. It is also broken after TP.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

#1- the most pronounced one (with the Hyrule equivalent of crop-circles around it, screaming 'look at me look at me I'm important') is right at the foot of Ganon's Tower.

They're all over Hyrule. Having one near Ganon's hideout isn't that coincidental.

#2- if Ganon didn't create them and they were always there, why didn't he escape earlier? If Ganon isn't using the portals somehow, how did he augment Agahnim's magic? Or accomplish ANYTHING in the Light World? The portals were the way Ganon managed to escape the seal, just as he escaped the seal on Hyrule in TWW with a portal from his Tower to the Forsaken Fortress.

They only go in. Ganon is already in, he wants out

Originally Posted by Smertios

The TR is made of floating rocks, while the DW from LttP (the SR) is land-based.

The Twilight Realm was made of floating rocks and so is that picture. Twilit Hyrule is land-based and so is ALttP's DW.

That image shows the room in which the triforce stays in the Pyramid of Light (which was there before Ganon entered the Sr for the first time in OoT, where it is referred to as the Temple of Light). Notice that the collumns are not floating, but going all the way to the ground across the gas clouds. There is also a ceilar.

I'm sorry but the only time we've ever definitely seen the Temple of Light (outside of fanon) was the Chamber of Sages in OoT and it looked nothing like that picture.

Anyway, the TR per se can't transform you into a wolf, only the 'darkness' waterfalls present there could, and the darkness spread from the TR (aka TC) over the Light World.

So the DWseen in ALttP and FSA is Twilit Hyrule - dark evil flows from the sealed realm and pervades the land of Hyrule.

IMO, there is only one kind of darkness, that can be spread over the different realms to create "Dark Worlds". Ganon did so in the SR, making it his "Dark World" in the AT. Later (or maybe before - I still have to annalyse some OoT quotes) he did the same by spreading darkness over the forest and adjascent areas in FSA.

The 'darkness' that you refer to is the Twilight.

In the CT, Ganon never entered the SR, meaning he needed to corrupt other realms to create his "Dark Worlds". He did so in the TR, using Zant to steal the sols (the TR is a 'Dark World' by default if the sols are not there, unlike the SR) , and, later, Hyrule itself, using the TC.

So you're agreeing that the TR is the DW?

The portals in TP don't transport you from Hyrule to the TR, but to another region of Hyrule. That's why they are not the same as the blue tiles from LttP (which are, btw, on the floor instead of the air). The only portal to the TR is the mirror and it looks nothing like the blue tiles. It is also broken after TP.

The portals go between Hyrule and Twilit Hyrule. They can, however, also be used for fast travel from place to place. And I'd like to see you make a 2D game like ALttP and put a portal above Link's head. And don't you believe that ALttP and TP are in separate timelines? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, do ME a favour: humour me and assume that the TR is the DW. Just for five minutes.

I have no problem assuming that FSA's Dark World is the Twilight Realm, but aLttP's is not.

But that's what I'm asking you to assume.

Who says the Sacred Realm can't be some floating nexus above the world of Hyrule somewhere in the "heavens", based on that image?

Originally Posted by Smertios

That image shows the room in which the triforce stays in the Pyramid of Light (which was there before Ganon entered the Sr for the first time in OoT, where it is referred to as the Temple of Light). Notice that the collumns are not floating, but going all the way to the ground across the gas clouds. There is also a ceilar.

That isn't entirely accurate. Consider the symbolism behind LaNayru's visions shown to Link about when the "interlopers" tried to dominate the Sacred Realm. To me: When their Fused Shadow barrier drops from where the Triforce was situated, the Triforce no longer being present afterwards says the gods moved it out of their reach. I'm not saying it was moved out of the Sacred Realm - just "moved" or "blocked".

Originally Posted by Smertios

IMO, there is only one kind of darkness, that can be spread over the different realms to create "Dark Worlds". Ganon did so in the SR, making it his "Dark World" in the AT. Later (or maybe before - I still have to annalyse some OoT quotes) he did the same by spreading darkness over the forest and adjascent areas in FSA.

This should help instead:

King of Red Lions - TWW:

"Link... I have been watching you since you went to the Forsaken Fortress to rescue your sister. I understand how your desire to protect your sister could give you the courage to fearlessly stand up to anything... But such a bold attempt was foolhardy! I suppose you saw him... The shadow that commands that monstrous bird... His name is...Ganon... ...He who obtained the power of the gods, attempted to cover the land in darkness, and was ultimately sealed away by the very power he hoped to command. He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of..."

The "darkness" that spread across Hyrule (OoT) your talking about was a result of the evil power radiating from the Sacred Realm through the ancient temples.

Also, in regards to the FSA Dark World:

Kaepora Gaebora:

"Link, those black spheres form a barrier of darkness! The darkness that Vaati created is syphoning the power from the land. If these barriers are left intact across Hyrule, Vaati will grow ever stronger. Look! Already, the green fields that once grew here have withered to dust. It is unforgivable, what he has done to the land! The power of the Four Sword can destroy the barriers! Link, you must bring your light and pierce the darkness!"

This is something to attribute to the draining of life force from the land, which I feel is responsible for letting the Dark World seep through into the Light World. The events that happened at the Village of the Blue Maiden sheds some light on the idea more so here:

Kaepora Gaebora:

"Hoot hoo! Link, are you now able to wield the Four Sword? It's a sacred sword able to smite the darkness. And that's not all. It also grants you the power to see the shadowy Dark World. The people of this village... They're being spirited away by some force. It may be that the Dark World is drawing them in. Save the villagers, Link! Bring light to their darkness!"

I believe the Moon Gates were just a creative game play element that allowed Link to breach through into the Dark World, since the shades of both worlds were merging already. Quite similar properties to the likes of the Twilight Realm. And we can make the exception to the "in and out" rule here because the Moon Pearls are what enable passageway between the two worlds.

Ganon's obsessed with covering Hyrule in darkness more so than conquering it, much like how he was by the end of TP when taunting Link that was his main desire was to merge light and shadow to create darkness. The parallels between FSA and TP elements is almost sad.

Originally Posted by Smertios

In the CT, Ganon never entered the SR, meaning he needed to corrupt other realms to create his "Dark Worlds". He did so in the TR, using Zant to steal the sols (the TR is a 'Dark World' by default if the sols are not there, unlike the SR) , and, later, Hyrule itself, using the TC.

I'm going to challenge people's thoughts on that idea when I can come back in full force. It's my job to play devil's advocate too, I guess...............................

The similarity between Twilight and the Dark World comes from nothing more than the fact that Eiji Aunoma's favourite Zelda title is ALTTP. There's really nothing more to it.

That image shows the room in which the triforce stays in the Pyramid of Light (which was there before Ganon entered the Sr for the first time in OoT, where it is referred to as the Temple of Light). Notice that the collumns are not floating, but going all the way to the ground across the gas clouds. There is also a ceilar.

The columns look like they're floating to me. They end in sharp little points before going through they go through clouds. And I think that the purple thing at the very top is some sort of moon, not a ceiling. I still don't think the TR is the SR/DW, though. The portals are different.

And is there really a two-way portal at Hyrule Castle in ALttP? I thought that it was only one-way; that Link'd get warped to the DW when he went through the gate. If it's a two-way portal, why couldn't Ganon just use it to escape?

Originally Posted by Ashanark

The columns look like they're floating to me. They end in sharp little points before going through they go through clouds. And I think that the purple thing at the very top is some sort of moon, not a ceiling.

And is there really a two-way portal at Hyrule Castle in ALttP? I thought that it was only one-way; that Link'd get warped to the DW when he went through the gate. If it's a two-way portal, why couldn't Ganon just use it to escape?

I don't think it was big enough yet. If you've read the Sensui saga of Yu-Yu Hakusho (where Sensui was trying to open a gate to the Underworld), it has a similar idea: at a certain size, Class C demons were able to get through, but Class B or higher couldn't. When the hole got bigger, the Class Bs could get through, but there was a special barrier that prevented Class As which had to be broken.

But you're right, it was one-way to the Dark World (though it was close to being tw0-way when you beat Ganon in the nick of time).

Ah, yes. I remember now. Zelda said that Ganon was "waiting to pass through the gateway" when you rescue her. But he was waiting in Ganon's tower, when the portal itself was near the Pyramid of Power. Strange.

"The person who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
Ganondorf the evil thief.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...
...Well, remember that you
have magical powers, which only
The Hero can make the most of!
There are some other magical
warping points like the one you
saw on Death Mountain.
By using them you can go
between the two worlds and
find the evils hidden in the
Dark World."

^from the LttP text dump.

thought that the quote would help.

Note that in Lttp the warp points change you from the LW to DW, while in TP you warp between them. They are totally different and the TR is not connected to Hyrule as the DW is.

Originally Posted by rhakiath

Note that in Lttp the warp points change you from the LW to DW, while in TP you warp between them. They are totally different and the TR is not connected to Hyrule as the DW is.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that the Twilight Realm will overlap/merge with the light world if light is stolen from the land, irregardless if the Mirror of Twilight exists or not. FSA mimics these properties with Vaati's dark barriers siphoning power from the land all over Hyrule; and coincidentally people start to get spirited away into this other world. The stronger argument remains that FSA Dark World = Twilight Realm.

I should also mention that the inhabitants of this "Dark World" area -paralleling the Village of the Blue Maiden- appear to be mages, skilled in magic quite a bit too. Go check your resources.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

True, however it's worth noting that as far as those spirits were concerned, they were still in Hyrule but inexplicably frightened. To compare like with like, we'd have to compare people who actually went into the Twilit version of Hyrule. The only example is Link: he was brought into the Twilight in a different way from anyone else:

What do you mean. The Twilight Curtains touched everyone as it slowly spread, and Link came across one of the curtains before a shadow beast pulled him in. It's pretty much the same as walking right into it.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

That Link was transformed into a beast was the work of the Twilight Realm. That he was transformed into a 'Blue-Eyed' beast was the work of the ToC.

No. He would have become a spirit or a monster, but the ToC intervened and turned him into a divine, or as you put it, 'blue-eyed' beast instead. If he never had the ToC, he would have became a spirit anyway.

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

The Master Sword didn't protect Link from the changing power of the TR. If you remember, after speaking to Lanayru, Zant cursed Link with some shard of Ganon's magic. The Master Sword banished this shard from Link's body, but it still affected him every time he touched it and even when he returned to the Sacred Realm, the clouds of Shadow could still transform him unless he had a Sol to make the Shadow retreat. What's a Sol, you ask? A glowing orb that protects the bearer from the changing power of the... hmm, sounds familiar.

Because those shadows are stronger than the MS's bane. The Twilight Palace alone is part of the Twilight Realm. If he had entered it without the MS, he would probably transform into a beast regardless whether there were shadows or not.