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  #61 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

He ruled the Sacred Realm? Where does it say that, I thought he just gained access to it, got the ToP and turned the real world into a 'world of monsters'.
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:35 PM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
Parts of the world are covered in a demonic power and anyone who enters it is cursed, just like in TP. These worlds are makai; demon worlds.
FSA style or TP style? Even then, Sheik suggests that, in the LoZ series, a Makai is more than a cursed place; it is the opposite of paradise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
A person with an evil heart is often considered a demon in Japanese mythology. So a person with an evil heart who controls the Sacred Realm causes it to become a demon world.
Sheik didn't say that the Sacred Realm would change due to a person claiming it. Sheik said that the realm would change due to them entering it. The damage is done before the person can even lift a finger.

Also, the concept of the Makai is still presented as the opposite of a paradise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
Irrelevant
It is relevant. The Twilight Curtain seems to be an expression of Darkness. The Twilight Realm itself is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
the same thing is true of the Light World in TP and FSA that is true of the SR in ALttP and OoT- it was corrupted by demonic power.
ALttP and OoT present us with clear-cut, absolute Makais, while FSA still seems to be up in the air. At the moment (imo), the Twilight Curtain just seems to be more like a spell or a typical absence of light than anything.

I'll get back to you later.
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Smallville Boy 69 Mexico Smallville Boy 69 is online now
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post
Sheik didn't say that the Sacred Realm would change due to a person claiming it. Sheik said that the realm would change due to them entering it. The damage is done before the person can even lift a finger.
.
Just one thing, the SR don't change when a person entering it. Link was the first person who entered into the the sacred realm but the sacred realm don't became a paradise, ganon change the sacred realm into the evil realm when he get the triforce.
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  #64 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by smallville boy
Just one thing, the SR don't change when a person entering it. Link was the first person who entered into the the sacred realm but the sacred realm don't became a paradise, ganon change the sacred realm into the evil realm when he get the triforce.
Seeing as how Link was apparently frozen by the Master Sword and Ganondorf was seemingly right on his tail, it appears that Ganondorf got into the Sacred Realm first while Link was frozen. That, or Link being in his "comatose" (his soul was sealed away according to Japanese translations over on LA) state didn't count.
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Originally Posted by Arcvalons
Vaati is the oldest villain in the Zelda chronology, and the oldest are always the most powerful.
Man, I've disproved this point every time I've dropped by the old folk's home.

I... I'm not allowed there any more.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:47 PM
Smallville Boy 69 Mexico Smallville Boy 69 is online now
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post
Seeing as how Link was apparently frozen by the Master Sword and Ganondorf was seemingly right on his tail, it appears that Ganondorf got into the Sacred Realm first while Link was frozen. That, or Link being in his "comatose" (his soul was sealed away according to Japanese translations over on LA) state didn't count.
Maybe you are right. Have sense to me.
Technically link was the first person who entered into the SR, but when he entered to the SR automatically he was sealed into the Temple of light.
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:12 AM
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Yes one person simply entering a neutral SR will turn it into a paradise or an evil realm. I think if two different hearted people enter it, the SR would remain neutral until something happens to one of them. Because link got frozen and ganondorf remained free, it became evil. The alttp backstory and manual say something like "many people entered the sr but none returned and evil power gushed from there and went into hyrule". That too fits. Those people died or got converted to evil thanks to ganon, so the sr became corrupted like oot's sr, and ganon's wish changed it to a different evil sr, the dark world.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:40 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post
FSA style or TP style?
A mixture of both. Divine trees are cursed by a demon and wither, and then the region surrounding the trees becomes a cursed demon world. Restoring the trees restores the land to its original state. It is the same in Zelda, and particularly in TP.

Quote:
Even then, Sheik suggests that, in the LoZ series, a Makai is more than a cursed place; it is the opposite of paradise.
A cursed place is the opposite of a blessed place.

Quote:
Sheik didn't say that the Sacred Realm would change due to a person claiming it. Sheik said that the realm would change due to them entering it. The damage is done before the person can even lift a finger.
I think the prophecy assumes that a person entering the Sacred Realm will lay his hands on the Triforce.

Quote:
It is relevant. The Twilight Curtain seems to be an expression of Darkness. The Twilight Realm itself is different.
The Twilight Realm is also corrupted by evil in TP.

Quote:
ALttP and OoT present us with clear-cut, absolute Makais, while FSA still seems to be up in the air. At the moment (imo), the Twilight Curtain just seems to be more like a spell or a typical absence of light than anything.
A demon world is created by an absence of light/divine power, Average Gamer.
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Old 03-04-2009, 01:02 PM
Erimgard Erimgard is a male Mexico Erimgard is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
He ruled the Sacred Realm? Where does it say that, I thought he just gained access to it, got the ToP and turned the real world into a 'world of monsters'.
Zelda states [in the Japanese] that the day Ganon entered the Sacred Realm and touched the Triforce he became a Maou and the Sacred Realm became a Makai. English says World of Evil or something to that effect.

He didn't rule from the Sacred Realm, but it was his territory. It was corrupted, and its evil power was leaking into Hyrule via the Temles.
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  #69 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-04-2009, 02:34 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Odd, I don't remember anyone saying a corrupted Sacred Realm or World of Evil in the NoA game. Ah well.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:04 PM
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
A mixture of both. Divine trees are cursed by a demon and wither, and then the region surrounding the trees becomes a cursed demon world. Restoring the trees restores the land to its original state. It is the same in Zelda, and particularly in TP.
I just got in contact with MikePetersSucks though, and he said that the Twilight Curtain isn't really a Makai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePetersSucks
The Twilight Curtain technically wouldn't count, as the Twilight creatures under Zant aren't really demonic, and the realm itself is just the merging of two worlds with a spiritual barrier; more of a kekai.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
A cursed place is the opposite of a blessed place.
The fact that a Makai in the Zelda series is considered to be an entire world of demons suggests that it is more than merely cursed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
I think the prophecy assumes that a person entering the Sacred Realm will lay his hands on the Triforce.
Sheik seems to specify that the change is caused by the person entering though. The Triforce is left out of the change situation. It is only after Sheik covers the realm changing that he/she brings the Triforce into the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
The Twilight Realm is also corrupted by evil in TP.
The realm is untouched. Most of the people have been turned into soldier beasts, but the realm itself has not been corrupted. Also, Zant is not a demon, and Ganondorf doesn't seem to actually want the Twilight Realm anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
A demon world is created by an absence of light/divine power, Average Gamer.
If a demon world would automatically exist if light was gone, then wouldn't that mean the (true) natural state of the world and Hyrule is that of a Makai? Considering the fact that the world was made by the Goddesses, I doubt that.

Isn't the general definition of a demon world supposed to be a place that a demon king controls anyway?

This is seriously going off-topic, so I'll stop that discussion here.

As for the translated ALttP box, it wouldn't make any sense for it to be referring to the manual story if everything else on the box is about the game, especially since the first sentence flows right into the second one. Context alone should make that clear.
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Originally Posted by Arcvalons
Vaati is the oldest villain in the Zelda chronology, and the oldest are always the most powerful.
Man, I've disproved this point every time I've dropped by the old folk's home.

I... I'm not allowed there any more.
Last Edited by Average Gamer; 03-04-2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #71 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-04-2009, 09:11 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post
I just got in contact with MikePetersSucks though, and he said that the Twilight Curtain isn't really a Makai.
Has it ever occurred to you that I do not care what MikePetersSucks says? Ganon is a dai maou in TP; that means he has or at some point at least had a makai.

Quote:
The fact that a Makai in the Zelda series is considered to be an entire world of demons suggests that it is more than merely cursed.
OoT's makai is the Sacred Realm tainted by demonic power, same as any other dark world in the series.

Quote:
Sheik seems to specify that the change is caused by the person entering though. The Triforce is left out of the change situation. It is only after Sheik covers the realm changing that he/she brings the Triforce into the discussion.
Sheik is describing a prophecy. That automatically gives us cause to believe the reality is more complicated than the words given to us.

Quote:
The realm is untouched. Most of the people have been turned into soldier beasts, but the realm itself has not been corrupted. Also, Zant is not a demon, and Ganondorf doesn't seem to actually want the Twilight Realm anyway.
The realm is overflowing with shadow crystals, the embodiment of Ganon's magic, and the Sols, the guardian spirits of the realm, have been sealed away. It's just as cursed as the light world was.

Quote:
If a demon world would automatically exist if light was gone, then wouldn't that mean the (true) natural state of the world and Hyrule is that of a Makai? Considering the fact that the world was made by the Goddesses, I doubt that.
No; obviously the world created by the goddesses is blessed by the light spirits in its natural state.

Quote:
Isn't the general definition of a demon world supposed to be a place that a demon king controls anyway?
Indeed.

So anything Ganon controls is a makai.

Quote:
As for the translated ALttP box, it wouldn't make any sense for it to be referring to the manual story if everything else in the box is about the game, especially since the first sentence flows right into the second. Context alone should make that clear.
The introduction is part of the game, you realize.
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  #72 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-04-2009, 09:43 PM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

I'll just PM a reply to you so that the thread doesn't get derailed any further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
The introduction is part of the game, you realize.
But the box is not talking about the introduction. It's talking about what happens in the general plot of the game and what you can do in the game. Saying that the line refers to the Imprisoning War is just grasping at straws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
Has it ever occurred to you that I do not care what MikePetersSucks says?
MikePetersSucks is a competent theorist who is also very familiar with Japanese culture. Heck, according to one post on LA, he's even a fluent Japanese person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron
Indeed.

So anything Ganon controls is a makai.
Not in the Zelda series, as I've pointed out. Also, Ganon rules the Gerudo Valley in OoT, but it certainly isn't a Makai.
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Vaati is the oldest villain in the Zelda chronology, and the oldest are always the most powerful.
Man, I've disproved this point every time I've dropped by the old folk's home.

I... I'm not allowed there any more.
Last Edited by Average Gamer; 03-04-2009 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #73 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-04-2009, 09:45 PM
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Quote:
The introduction is part of the game, you realize.
Considering NoA made a fairly accurate translation of the box wouldn't that mean that Jumbie is wrong and NoA is right since NoA is official? Because the NoA version says pretty much the same thing but it gets rid of any implication and pretty much just flat out says LttP-LoZ.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:48 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Because the NoA version says pretty much the same thing but it gets rid of any implication and pretty much just flat out says LttP-LoZ.
NoA's localization team at the time was also headed by Dan Oswen, the man who brought you the immaculate English SNES ALttP manual. ;D
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Old 03-28-2009, 12:34 PM
Erimgard Erimgard is a male Mexico Erimgard is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

My views have been revised:
http://www.zeldainformer.com/forums/...=0&#entry34360
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  #76 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

A summary, for people who don't want to read all that:

Historical tales are seen as "setting the stage" for the legends of Hyrule/Zelda in general, but not concretely aLttP

The Japanese box says "the stage is set" when Hyrule was one kingdom; the Japanese manual says "the History of Hyrule" is the "stage for The Legend of Zelda"/"the place where the Legend of Zelda is staged."

"The Legend of Zelda," here, probably refers to the series, as the original game was known in Japan as "Hyrule Fantasy." Alternatively, it could refer to the "Legend of Zelda," the story of the Sleeping Zelda.

Conclusion: The "stage" is the events of "History of Hyrule," and these events, not the events of ALttP itself, are the events that take place "when Hyrule was one kingdom."

[B]Hyrule is a "region" during aLttP, just as it is during LoZ/AoL[/quote]

One of the arguments made to place ALttP before LoZ/AoL is that the Hyrule of that game is still "one kingdom" as the box text describes. The Japanese text reveals that Hyrule is actually referred to using the same word to describe the "Hyrule region" in Japanese. Hyrule was never called a kingdom in ALttP anyway, aside from in the legends (the word kingdom doesn't even appear in ALttP outside from the first sentence of the intro).

The manual is a combination of quotes from historical documents left behind by the Hylians and commentary by the writer

The conclusion, based on the writing style, is that the narrator of the SNES ALttP manual is someone who is part of the Hyrule universe, commenting on the history of Hyrule. Based on the verb tense, we can conclude that the writer is writing from the period just as ALttP is starting; the events of ALttP's direct prologue are in a more recent tense, whereas the "History of Hyrule" is told in past tense.

Also of note is the fact that the narrator describes Ganon as "the one who has threatened Hyrule so," implying some familiarity to the player (who would know exactly what events the narrator was talking about- those of LoZ, the only such events at the time). If the narrator is describing history, and lives in the time period of ALttP, that would mean that the time when these [LoZ's] events happened was before ALttP.
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Old 03-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Impossible Impossible is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

Hyrule has a castle and a King. But it's not a kingdom. Yep.

I still don't think you understand the basic functions of a) language and b) marketing. It makes no sense whatsoever to confuse readers like that. Anyone without a bias is going to think that it's referring to the original LoZ. Instead of taking it out of context, note that the entire box goes on to talk about ALttP and only ALttP. It never mentions the Seal War, it never references any previous events. It would be a non-sequitur for them to be talking about those events, and it makes no coherent sense. The people reading that box would have no damn clue what ALttP's backstory is, they want to know how it connects to the Zelda games they've played before.

Also, I love how you twist the familiarity with Ganon comment to imply LoZ had already happened before ALttP. It's showing the origins of Ganon. The first time he threatened Hyrule and became the Demon King/whatever it was. How the hell does LoZ fit between Ganon's first rise to power and sealing, and ALttP? Given that ALttP basically says he was in the Dark World the entire time.

Also, I think people have ****ed up this line:

Quote:
To tell the history of Hyrule, the stage for The Legend of Zelda,
Er. It's not saying that the history of Hyrule is the stage for The Legend of Zelda. That doesn't even make coherent sense. It's saying that Hyrule is the stage for The Legend of Zelda, so they're going to tell us its history. This isn't even a Japanese issue, it's basic English. A Japanese speaker could probably confirm this, but you think they're all liars anyway, so let me just use Johan's translation WHICH IS RIGHT NEXT TO THAT ONE.

Quote:
To tell about the history of Hyrule, the place where the Legend of Zelda is staged, the myth of the Triforce is a subject that has to be initially touched upon.
Christ, talk about deliberately ignoring context... Just pick the quotes you like. ALttP's manual is not talking about the same thing as the box and they can't be connected in this way. One is referring to the game being staged in a place, one is referring to the events of the game setting the stage (before the feats of the Link the reader would be familiar with). Johan's translation is more literal, by the way, even if Zethar's often seems better.

This doesn't surprise me from Lex, but I expect better from Erimgard...
Last Edited by Impossible; 03-28-2009 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 03-28-2009, 04:56 PM
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Impossible View Post
Given that ALttP basically says he was in the Dark World the entire time.
See, I dunno about anyone else, but for someone complaining about people being bias, this statement seems pretty bias to me...
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Old 03-28-2009, 05:01 PM
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Impossible View Post
Hyrule has a castle and a King. But it's not a kingdom. Yep.
^^ what he said ^^
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Old 03-28-2009, 05:12 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: "The stage is set" ...A official box!

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Originally Posted by Impossible View Post
Hyrule has a castle and a King. But it's not a kingdom. Yep.
No one argued that it isn't a kingdom; just that it's not so obviously the one kingdom referred to in the AoL backstory.

Quote:
I still don't think you understand the basic functions of a) language and b) marketing. It makes no sense whatsoever to confuse readers like that.
"The stage is set during the epoch when Hyrule was one kingdom."
"To tell the history of Hyrule, the stage for The Legend of Zelda, one must come to know the myth of the Triforce."

It certainly doesn't make sense to confuse readers. ;D

Quote:
Anyone without a bias is going to think that it's referring to the original LoZ.
Only someone with a bias could interpret the "stage" as anything other than what the official story (which is displayed above, clear as day, mind you) says the stage is. ;D

Quote:
Also, I love how you twist the familiarity with Ganon comment to imply LoZ had already happened before ALttP. (Who says history and legends can't be written later?)
The parts describing the SW are written clearly in past tense (Ganon was born, etc.; )
the parts describing Agahnim's invasion insert things like "recently" and use a more recent verb tense (recently; strange events have been occuring; etc.)

My question is, if the part about Ganon having threatened Hyrule isn't referring to ALttP (and therefore refers to LoZ by default), then how can it not be taken that way? Past tense events happen before present perfect progressive events, after all ;D

Quote:
How the hell does LoZ fit between Ganon's first rise to power and sealing, and ALttP? Given that ALttP basically says he was in the Dark World the entire time.
Better question: how the hell is Ganon alive after being killed by the Silver Arrows in ALttP?

Probable answer: the developers weren't really thinking of these things when they made the games.
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