Geography or the AoL BS?

Two of the three currently common timelines are the "awesome timeline"

----TWW/PH--LoZ/AoL--OoX--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA
---/
OoT
---\
----MM--TP

and the timeline that I came up with, which is now the Ollacove Pinethir timeline due to Pinecove's helpful contributions of evidence for it...

----TWW/PH--AoL BS/OoX--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL
---/
OoT
---\
----MM--TP

As far as I know, both timelines have only one real problem that isn't unavoidable, such as the Triforce and, as it now seems, also the MS after TWW. These problems are geography and the AoL BS.

It's really a matter of opinion which problem you judge less important and the one you would rather have in your timeline. In this thread, I'm just stating the respective problems for each timeline as they are (with a lot of bias for my side) so that you can decide between the two timelines for yourself.

Of course, it will be argued that there are other problems, but these are uncertain and of lesser importance than the two in this thread, which in reality can not be disputed. (not in this reality at least)

The problem with the "awesome timeline" is geography. TWW makes it clear that land is supposed to be growing over time, which means AoL and LoZ should be at the end of the AT. (That's a good rhyme to remember, kids) This is made even more true by the fact that FSA's map does not have as much land to the north of the Kingdom of Hyrule as AoL's does. FSA was the next game released after TWW, so when it came out we already knew that land was supposed to be growing. Logically, if FSA shows that land in AoL did not exist as the time of of FSA, and we know that land is supposed to be growing, it indicates that AoL and LoZ should be at the end of the AT.

So that's the big problem with the "awesome timeline." It just kind of ignores that big geographical problem for perfect, or as close to perfect as you can get, storyline. However, you'll find that my timeline also has nearly perfect storyline. There is only one small problem with the AoL BS. On top of that, I have no geographical problems.

As I said before, my problem is the AoL BS. Zelda can't be awakened after ALttP because Link had already used his wish, and no one else could use the Triforce as it was his, based on a quote from AST. However, she might have been awakened between the AoL BS and OoX. This is why I have as little time as possible between those two events in my timeline. The Zelda in OoX is the very next one in the lineage after sleeping Zelda. This way, OoX can happen basically right after the AoL BS.

As you probably know, the king of ALttP casts the spell causing the Triforce mark to appear in my timeline, which means he also writes the scroll that goes into the chamber with sleeping Zelda. In the AoL manual, Impa says that the scroll had been handed down for generations. That means it was written generations ago, and the same person who wrote it cast the Triforce mark spell generations ago.

We know that the Triforce mark appeared on the person who was able to use the Triforce without "producing many evils." That being said, it took generations for such a person to be born. So if there is hardly any time between the AoL BS and OoX, as there is in my timeline, it's very highly unlikely that such a person would have existed in that time, explaining why no one tried to use the Triforce to awaken her.

I do not think this is a big problem, as there is only a very, very small chance that the right person to use the Triforce to awaken Zelda would have been around in that small window of time. However, as it is always a chance, I can't state outrightly that it isn't a problem for me at all, no matter how small a problem it is.

So basically, the "awesome timeline" has perfect story continuation and completely failed geography, while my timeline has no more than one storyline problem (and a very small one at that) and perfect geography.

The choice is up to you. Will you put up with geography...or the AoL BS? Would you rather stick with a timeline that sacrifices geography completely for perfect story continuation?...Or a timeline that makes no geographical sacrifices and still only has one small storyline problem?

lol You completely disregarded Smertios' timeline.

Yeah I have to say that there is pretty much no reason I've seen anymore for the early LoZ placement.

Uh yeah, geography doesn't work perfectly for either timeline, because AoL's geography is ****ed.

If you go with an early LoZ/AoL placement, then you've got some disappearing land.
If you go with a late LoZ/AoL placement, a vast forest magically turns into an enormous mountain range about 10 times the size of Death Mountain.

^So?

If you go with PH-LoZ/AoL you have Maze Island growing to about 30x its original size.

Deku Tree's Success?

And like I just said. AoL's geography doesn't play nice no matter where you put it.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Uh yeah, geography doesn't work perfectly for either timeline, because AoL's geography is ****ed.

If you go with an early LoZ/AoL placement, then you've got some disappearing land.
If you go with a late LoZ/AoL placement, a vast forest magically turns into an enormous mountain range about 10 times the size of Death Mountain.

About them mountains...look at these.



There's a little bit of land off to the north of Hyrule, but it isn't mountainous. Then in AoL...



That whole area is full of mountains. If all that area can become mountainous as land grows, the forested land on the southern border of that now-mountainous land can sprout mountains to. The cold temperature of the altitude accounts for why almost all of the trees are gone.

EDIT: AoL's geography works just fine for me, as far as I know. What's wrong with it?

I also actually prefer more time between PH and AoL because of Maze Island. Look at how much it grew. Considering the rate at which most of the land grows and comes together, it makes more sense at the end of the timeline where it has a lot more time to get as large as it is in AoL.

In aLttP, stand on death mountain and look to the north....
Trees as far as the eye can see. In determining an aLttP-LoZ connection, the aLttP map is worth a bit more than the FSA one.

aLttP's map says that north of the Death Mountan peak/s with spectacle rock is a vast forest. AoL says that north of the spectacle is an incredibly vast mountain range significantly larger than the aLttP one.

How did a forest magically turn into mountains, especially when the Koroks are trying to make more forested land, not more mountainous land?

Trees as far as the eye can see. In determining an aLttP-LoZ connection,

Trees as far as the eye can see... then BOOM IT ALL DISAPPEARS AND MAKES A SMALL ISLAND!!!!

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Trees as far as the eye can see... then BOOM IT ALL DISAPPEARS AND MAKES A SMALL ISLAND!!!!

Um, what?
I'm talking about the aLttP map. Which does not have islands in the background.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

In aLttP, stand on death mountain and look to the north....
Trees as far as the eye can see. In determining an aLttP-LoZ connection, the aLttP map is worth a bit more than the FSA one.

aLttP's map says that north of the Death Mountan peak/s with spectacle rock is a vast forest. AoL says that north of the spectacle is an incredibly vast mountain range significantly larger than the aLttP one.

How did a forest magically turn into mountains, especially when the Koroks are trying to make more forested land, not more mountainous land?

I'll look on ALttP. I don't remember what it looks like very well, and I need to see it again to get the full effect.

The Koroks aren't really trying to make forested land. They're just planting trees because it grows land. Once the land is there it's good. Or there might be something about them wanting to cover everything with forests, but I don't think it's their main goal. The Deku Tree just wants a "great island" for people to live on like before the flood. That's his dream. Forests, mountains, whatever. I mean, Hyrule was surrounded by mountains and forests, so if they're trying to make a land like the old Hyrule they can't just have forests all over the place. Besides, if mountains show up what are they going to do about it? Mountains form over time. There's nothing wrong with a mountainous area (not a mountain chain, but a whole area of mountains) like the Himalayas forming. It happens in the real world. It can happen in Hyrule.

Or how about this...two large areas of land were brought together or connected by the Koroks, resulting in the formation of mountains when the land connected. That's the most likely way for those mountains to have formed.

Um, what?
I'm talking about the aLttP map. Which does not have islands in the background.

Ohh whoops it should have been mountains. Said the wrong thing...
Still. Trees turning into mountains which can be explained... or continents and trees and mountains turning into water. Oh and a tiny island becoming a GIGANTIC island while still being a maze.

WHOA. I haven't looked outside all day... I look outside and apparently it has snowed about 2 feet overnight. And it's still snowing.

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Oh and a tiny island becoming a GIGANTIC island while still being a maze.

...is already explained?
Unlike the mountain-trees.

I don't see how you can explain tress turning into mountains by saying "well...the Koroks planted MOAR trees!"

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Olly

The Koroks aren't really trying to make forested land.

Originally Posted by Deku Tree

Every year after the Koroks perform this
ceremony, they fly off to the distant
islands on the sea and plant my seeds
in the hopes that new forests will grow.

I could think of a million answers to this.

I don't see how you can explain land turning into water by saying... well you haven't really been saying anything. Almost like you're not even acknowledging this evidence.

...is already explained?

That isn't the Deku Tree's plan. The Deku Tree's plan was to bring the islands together. Not magically make islands grow. And that is incredibly fast for an island to grow. Look at the Maze Island in PH. Then look at the AoL Maze Island. It doesn't look much bigger.

Then look at that tiny spot in the corner which is LoZ hyrule. You could stack probably about 6 LoZ Hyrules inside that Maze Island. Pretty damned fast for an island to grow, I'd say.

Here's something I just noticed. I don't know if it is important or not. But might as well mention it.

If the Sleeping Zelda is awakened would there be any point in continuing to name princesses Zelda?

Explain the islands disappearing then I'll explain the forest disappearing.

I think what SoM is saying is that since Maze Island is very small in PH and huge in AoL, the more time you have between those two games the better.

I looked off DM in ALttP. There are trees where you can see, but you can't see very far. Mostly it's just a bunch of clouds. And you're not looking out either. The camera looks forward and down, so you can't see very far. There are some trees that turn into mountains, yes, but this is a naturally occuring process. It's not a problem.

EDIT: Damn. I knew if it was there, you would find it. Meh, so the Koroks grew land by planting trees, so of course that land was forested. Then some mountains developed. It doesn't change anything.

A: The Deku Tree is connecting the islands by making them grow. Planting trees doesn't cause tectonic plate movments.
B: Who says it's a short amount of time between PH and AoL?
C: Do you really expect an NES overworld map for a game with a weird overworld/sidescroll two-way view to be completely accurate in proportions?

A. IIRC the GDTs plan was to pull all the islands together. Not make land grow out of no where.
B. Sure. But looking at the past OoA and the present OoA map it took 400 years for an island to move inward by a tiny amount. The growth of Maze Island would take probably take hundreds of thousands of years to grow. That amount of time could very well happen between PH and LttP---LoZ/AoL.
C. Do you really think that an NES map showing mountains then a few years later Nintendo making a game that comes before LoZ/AoL showing forests matters?

Ugh that was an awful run-on sentence.

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

I don't see how you can explain land turning into water by saying... well you haven't really been saying anything. Almost like you're not even acknowledging this evidence.

I know. People with his timeline do it all the time. Do you know how annoying it is for me, who has been attacking that timeline for half a year, when they do that?

Then look at that tiny spot in the corner which is LoZ hyrule. You could stack probably about 6 LoZ Hyrules inside that Maze Island. Pretty damned fast for an island to grow, I'd say.

Exactly.

Here's something I just noticed. I don't know if it is important or not. But might as well mention it.

If the Sleeping Zelda is awakened would there be any point in continuing to name princesses Zelda?

Explain the islands disappearing then I'll explain the forest disappearing.

The prince says that all future princesses would be named Zelda. I don't think that changes if sleeping Zelda is awakened. I don't see any reason for it to.

We can explain the forest disappearing. Mountains develop, and the trees die because of the cold at the high altitude.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

A: The Deku Tree is connecting the islands by making them grow. Planting trees doesn't cause tectonic plate movments.
B: Who says it's a short amount of time between PH and AoL?
C: Do you really expect an NES overworld map for a game with a weird overworld/sidescroll two-way view to be completely accurate in proportions?

A: Okay then. Two tectonic plates ran into eachother and formed a mountainous area over time.
B: Um...you do. Shorter than me anyway. Basically, the more time between them the better, because of the huge growth of Maze Island.
C: No, but we can't see that those trees go very far, proportions or not, so you can't just say that they go on a long way north after DM. We can't tell.

Whatever the case is, there's nothing wrong with mountains forming. There is something wrong with land disappearing and an island growing to hundreds of times it original area in however much time though. It makes more sense with AoL farther away from PH.

The prince says that all future princesses would be named Zelda. I don't think that changes if sleeping Zelda is awakened. I don't see any reason for it to.

For all future princesses to be named Zelda in honor of the most likely never awakening Zelda. With Zelda awakened I can't think of much reason to keep the tradition going.

We can explain the forest disappearing. Mountains develop, and the trees die because of the cold at the high altitude.

I live in the mountains where it is extremely cold (actually it is snowing right now) and I live pretty high up. Trees are fine.

This can be explained with 2 words.

Forest fire.

Lands disappearing makes just as much sense as a forest disappearing.
Also, in aLttP, the eastern side of Hyrule is bordered by mountains/cliffs

In AoL, that section of the little kingdom is bordered by water. Now you could say that there's water beyond the mountains/cliffs in aLttP, but again, there's a complete lack of mountains on that side of Hyrule.

Essentially for aLttP to connect to AoL geographically, every place where there's trees...the trees have to magically turn into mountains. There must have been a ****load of tectonic platemovement...that only affected the outskirts of the litte kingdom, and not the inner parts.

Lands disappearing makes just as much sense as a forest disappearing.

No it doesn't. Because in your timeline you not only have land disappearing. You have mountains and whatever other forests there are disappearing. Plus forests can be explained with forest fires. How do you explain land disappearing? What did an atomic bomb go off?