Geography or the AoL BS?

Originally Posted by Smertios

See Mt. Crenel and Veil falls background pics... I see a body of water before the mountains...

I see the mountains ending and nothing being shown at their feet, quite honestly. And the mountains are a repeating image anyway, so whether we're supposed to get anything from this besides the existence of mountains to the north is I think entirely questionable.

The beanstalk image can't be taken into consideration, considering it is part of a sidequest and it conflics with the Mt. Crenel image.

The so-called "body of water" isn't actually even visible from any point in the game; only the mountains are. So I think it shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Sequels or prequels. It could be both considering we had two official sources with different timelines.

True, I suppose.

There is no damage for LoZ---OoX. Actually, OoX fits perfectly after AoL too. But there is also no damage for LttP---OoX.

ALttP's Ganon is called "yami no maou" and never "dai maou," but the Ganon being revived in OoX is the "dai maou." I think the titles are important because otherwise there's no telling which Ganon is which, so this is pretty crushing to that order to me.

But everything in OoX seemed to match LttP better than LoZ. Ganon, the trident, how the triforce is depicted, official art...

Probably because LoZ's art is outdated and everything has been expanded upon since then, of course.

The thing is, if you believed Miyamoto's order, it makes sense for the the FS subseries to have weakened the double connection of OoX to LttP and LoZ.

The FS subseries in my opinion further strengthens it as TMC and FSA both have exclusive references to LoZ (and TMC has more), whereas FSA is still most similar to ALttP.

But, if you believed Nintendo's order instead

What "Nintendo's order"?

The first thing you'll notice is the art. Official art for OoX was clearly inspired by LttP's.

Official art for TWW was inspired by OoX, according to Aonuma I believe.

He had the trident in both OoX and LttP, but not in LoZ.

LoZ predates ALttP and OoX and any depiction of the trident.

And please keep in mind that FSA was not being developed yet when OoX was released, so there was no trident backstory yet and the only two games in which Ganon had the trident were LttP and OoX.

Now you can look at Ganon's title. The first time he was ever called YnM was in ooX. Later they changed his title for the GBA version of LttP.

Nope; he was always called yami no maou in ALttP.

And there is the triforce, which is depicted the exact same way in LttP and OoX: flying separate talking pieces...

The Triforce was depicted the same way in AoL after you unite it.

The enemies from OoX are also the same ones from LA, and LA has several similar enemies to LttP, which means these three (or four) games are connected somehow.

OoX also has several similar enemies to LoZ, most notably the Armos, which share the same design as in LoZ and TMC.

TMC is implied to be the first time a Hero of Hyrule wears a green hat. Having LoZ before TMC ruins this.

LoZ Link wasn't from Hyrule. He was a traveller.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

LoZ Link wasn't from Hyrule. He was a traveller.

Besides, if Link becomes king (as is implied in the AoL backstory), don't you think he would stop wearing that silly hat anyway? ;P

Originally Posted by Smertios

@Ollathir: It's ridiculous to think that the timeline changes from time to time. If that is really so, it's pointless to theorize.

WTF? You think the timeline has never changed? Do you know how impossible that would make timeline theorizing? I'm sorry, but that is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard you say, and that's saying something.

Originally Posted by Smertios

The thing is, there isn't much to say that OoX remained in the early placement, only the trident. There is way more connecting OoX to LttP/LA and to LoZ/AoL. And Ollathir is preferring to ignore that evidence and take only the trident and the Oracles in TMc in credit...

Because more recent eveidence that contradicts old evidence overrules it. You don't understand that. That's why you think the timeline has never changed. If old evidence was never swapped out for new evidence, we would have evidence for placing games in all kinds of places. Nothing would make sense.

Originally Posted by Smertios

(1) The first thing you'll notice is the art. Official art for OoX was clearly inspired by LttP's.

Yes. OoX was either the game before ALttP when it was made.

(2) Then you'll look at Ganon. He had the trident in both OoX and LttP, but not in LoZ. It makes more sense for Ganon with the trident to be ressurected in oox than for Ganon without the trident be ressurected and mysteriously have access to the trident.

Either that or the trident was created. But I agree it makes more sense if he was revived from having it already originally.

(4) Now you can look at Ganon's title. The first time he was ever called YnM was in ooX. Later they changed his title for the GBA version of LttP. Suspicious, ain't it?

You want to know how that works? Here's what you're suggesting...

OoT--ALttP--OoX--LoZ/AoL

He's just called YnM in LttP out of nowhere. People started calling him that instead of dai maou like they did in OoT. Wouldn't it make more sense if we actually hear Ganon call himself YnM before he starts being called that?

OoT--LoZ/AoL--OoX--ALttP

Your point makes no sense anyway. In ALttP, Ganon never heard anyone call him YnM. So how is he supposed to know that's what he's called in OoX if OoX is after ALttP? He's making up the title no matter what. That being the case, your title reason for having OoX after ALttP at this point in time is useless, and it makes much more sense for OoX to be before ALttP when it comes to Ganon's titles. It's different now of course, with FSA in the mix, but almost all of us except you understand that the trident BS is OoX.

(5) And there is the triforce, which is depicted the exact same way in LttP and OoX: flying separate talking pieces...

It never talks in OoX actually.

(6) The enemies from OoX are also the same ones from LA, and LA has several similar enemies to LttP, which means these three (or four) games are connected somehow.

If you say so.

(7) And last, but not least, there is the fact that they used the same (or a very similar one) engine for OoX and LA. The only other time that happened was with TMC, FS and FSA, and we all know that those games are connected...

Oh this is great. Epic fail part boldened. You're still trying to use the f***ing game engine as evidence, and you actually think it's not your weakest piece. This is too good.

Oh, and you went straight from 2) to 4).

Ganon never heard anyone call him YnM.

Duh. Cause he knew he was a Yami no Maou just like he knew he was Ganon.

It never talks in OoX actually.

Really? Because in the beginning it says "Oh, chosen hero. Undergo our test!"

(6) The enemies from OoX are also the same ones from LA,

Which is why it should go LttP-OoX/LA.

he was always called yami no maou in ALttP.

No in the SNES version he was Jaaki no ou.

Which is why it should go LttP-OoX/LA.

The MS?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

No in the SNES version he was Jaaki no ou.

No, he was Yami no Maou.
It's only the manual that calls him Jaaku no Ou one time. It states that the Seal War was the time when the Jaaku no Ou was born, the one who has threatened Hyrule.

Indication there that Jaaku no Ou is a general term for all Ganon incarnations.

The MS?

I'm talking to Smertios, not you. He believes LttP/LA-OoX. I'm telling him that by his reasoning it works better for LttP-OoX/LA.

And what is wrong with the MS?

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

I'm talking to Smertios, not you. He believes LttP/LA-OoX. I'm telling him that by his reasoning it works better for LttP-OoX/LA.

And what is wrong with the MS?

"Sleeps Forever" [though of course, I don't give a crap about that line]
And if he believes in canonicity of OoX's master sword, the fact that it's been in Labrynna for 400 years.

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Duh. Cause he knew he was a Yami no Maou just like he knew he was Ganon.

I don't know what you're saying here.

Really? Because in the beginning it says "Oh, chosen hero. Undergo our test!" Which is why it should go LttP-OoX/LA.

My ass. I hope that's a literal translation, because that's not what the NoA text says at all. It says, "Accept our quest, hero!" And that's not the Triforce. When the Triforce speaks in ALttP, it speaks as the Essence of the Triforce. The Essence of the Triforce says, "I am the Essence of the Triforce." If it were speaking in OoX, it would say, "Accept my quest, hero!"

Also, when you play whichever Oracle game you play second, you see "Accept our quest, hero!" again at the beginning of the game when Link is being teleported or whatever, and you're not anywhere near the Triforce. I would say it's not the Triforce speaking.

My ass. I hope that's a literal translation, because that's not what the NoA text says at all.

Yep that is the literal translation. Straight from LegendsAlliance. (Well actually from my thread on ZeldaDungeon. But it still came from Jacensolo)

You walk up to the triforce the get teleported and hear that. There isn't anything that it can be but the triforce.

I don't know what you're saying here.

You said that Ganon had to have randomly taken that title because no one called him that. But that is pure BS.

Oh and to counter your crap about OoX Link not being a hyrule hero.

In Hyrule, that triangle is the sign of the hero! That must be why the monsters fled.

That is the literal translation. Who is "the hero" that means there has already been a hero with that mark. Or you are that hero.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

I see the mountains ending and nothing being shown at their feet, quite honestly. And the mountains are a repeating image anyway, so whether we're supposed to get anything from this besides the existence of mountains to the north is I think entirely questionable.

There is a lighter blue shade below the mountains in the horizon. It can be a body of water. Not necessarily an ocean though...

The so-called "body of water" isn't actually even visible from any point in the game; only the mountains are. So I think it shouldn't be taken into consideration.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of taking background images into consideration. I'm just trying to make them fit, if they are so important...

ALttP's Ganon is called "yami no maou" and never "dai maou," but the Ganon being revived in OoX is the "dai maou." I think the titles are important because otherwise there's no telling which Ganon is which, so this is pretty crushing to that order to me.

Maō means "Demon King". It is not a title, just a generic description, like Human President. Daimaō means "Big Demon King". It is a description with an adjective, not an specific title.

Maō of Darkness (Yami no Maō), on the other hand, is a vey specific title. My point here is that he can easily have the title of Yami no Maō while he is still a daimaō, so OoX is not necesserily the point in which he changes his titles. It could just as well be a point in which he has both titles...

Probably because LoZ's art is outdated and everything has been expanded upon since then, of course.

They could have made a few artistic connections if they wanted, like Link's hair being brown, for example. But they didn't do anything like that...

The FS subseries in my opinion further strengthens it as TMC and FSA both have exclusive references to LoZ (and TMC has more), whereas FSA is still most similar to ALttP.

I mean the direct connections, like art for example...

What "Nintendo's order"?

Miyamoto said OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP/(LA). That's the Miyamoto's Order.

Other official nintendo sources said OoT-LttP/(LA)-LoZ/AoL. That's the Nintendo's order

Sorry for the confusion...

Official art for TWW was inspired by OoX, according to Aonuma I believe.

Really? I don't see many similarities there. Can you provide a quote??

LoZ predates ALttP and OoX and any depiction of the trident.

Point being?

Nope; he was always called yami no maou in ALttP.

People told me he wasn't called so in the the SNES version and that he was called Jyaki somthing or Jaaki something.

Anyway, it only strenghtens the connection between OoX and LttP...

The Triforce was depicted the same way in AoL after you unite it.

Speaking?!

OoX also has several similar enemies to LoZ, most notably the Armos, which share the same design as in LoZ and TMC.

Of course, but those are also in many other games. i meant exclusive enemies...

Originally Posted by Ollathir

WTF? You think the timeline has never changed? Do you know how impossible that would make timeline theorizing? I'm sorry, but that is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard you say, and that's saying something.

The only way they can change the timeline is if they make new releases of old games changing stuff. they hardly do that...

Because more recent eveidence that contradicts old evidence overrules it. You don't understand that. That's why you think the timeline has never changed. If old evidence was never swapped out for new evidence, we would have evidence for placing games in all kinds of places. Nothing would make sense.

That's a matter of personal opinion. IMO, your new evidence is not conclusive enough to overrule older evidence...

Yes. OoX was either the game before ALttP when it was made.

I know that. I'm just trying to prove that my timeline is possible, just like yours.

You are saying that my timeline is stupid and can't work, but you are not providing any conclusive evidence disproving it. All you did so far was give some circumstantial evidence that can mean absolutely anything.

Acknowledge that my timeline is possible, but that you believe yours is more likely, or I'll continue to take all this as personal attack and I have the right of defence!

You want to know how that works? Here's what you're suggesting...

OoT--ALttP--OoX--LoZ/AoL

He's just called YnM in LttP out of nowhere. People started calling him that instead of dai maou like they did in OoT. Wouldn't it make more sense if we actually hear Ganon call himself YnM before he starts being called that?

OoT--LoZ/AoL--OoX--ALttP

Your point makes no sense anyway. In ALttP, Ganon never heard anyone call him YnM. So how is he supposed to know that's what he's called in OoX if OoX is after ALttP? He's making up the title no matter what. That being the case, your title reason for having OoX after ALttP at this point in time is useless, and it makes much more sense for OoX to be before ALttP when it comes to Ganon's titles. It's different now of course, with FSA in the mix, but almost all of us except you understand that the trident BS is OoX.

He is Yami no Maō in LttP because he is so in FSA, which is a prequel!! I don't believe the trident BS is OoX. There is nothing other than the trident and the inscription hinting towards that...

It never talks in OoX actually.

Oh, really? Did you watch the intro??

Oh this is great. Epic fail part boldened. You're still trying to use the f***ing game engine as evidence, and you actually think it's not your weakest piece. This is too good.

Again, the only games that use the same engine (OoT and MM; TMC, FS and FSA) are all connected. So yes, it is evidence...

Oh, and you went straight from 2) to 4).

I can go from 'shoe' to 'horse' if i want, it was just to help people with replies...

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Which is why it should go LttP-OoX/LA.

That can easily work too. I just like to consider AST info canon...

Smertios, I do not believe that your timeline is possible. Well, it's possible, but I don't think there's a possibility that it's the timeline Nintendo has in those articles Miyamoto mentioned. It all has to do with the trident BS.

I just don't understand how you can possibly deny that OoX is the trident BS referred to in the inscription in FSA. I'm at a loss for words about it, and you know I have a lot of words.

Originally Posted by Ollathir

Smertios, I do not believe that your timeline is possible. Well, it's possible, but I don't think there's a possibility that it's the timeline Nintendo has in those articles Miyamoto mentioned. It all has to do with the trident BS.

I just don't understand how you can possibly deny that OoX is the trident BS referred to in the inscription in FSA. I'm at a loss for words about it, and you know I have a lot of words.

Well, because, if I place LoZ/AoL in the end of the timeline, I have either to ignore that

1) OoX might be the trident BS, even though that is not directly implied in FSA, just barely hinted.

or that

2) OoX was said to follow a game in which 'Blue Ganon w/ Trident' was killed, the triforce was in the hands of the Royal Family and its hero had saved Hyrule and brought peace back before going to Holodrum/Labrynna.

I don't know about you, but I really prefer to take the BS of the main villain in the series as more important than the BS of a weapon. And I also prefer to take the most important object in the entire series (the triforce) as more important than the said weapon. And I also prefer to take the Hero's BS as more important than the villain's weapon BS.

Now seriously, fill the following gaps in your timeline:
A: how did the triforce go from how it is in the end of TWW to being together in the castle for OoX?
B: Where is Ganon (not Ganondorf, as Nintendo made it clear not to refer to his human form as Ganon) ressurected from, if there is no game in which he died before OoX?
C: If the triforce was in in the castle for OoX, why is it that it's not even mentioned in TMC, where we know that the name Triumph Forks was still used?
D: Where is Hyrule and the time in which a hero brought peace back, as mentioned in OoX, between TWW and OoX? You can't argue that it is just not shown in any game because this is way more important than the trident BS, and you say that my timeline is weak because I don't have a game showing when 'a demon' (any demon!) got the trident before FSA.

I say that your timeline is weak because you don't have any games showing what I mentioned above. So OoX has to follow either LoZ or LttP.

...../-TWW/PH-loZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA
OoT
.....\MM-TP
can work

...../-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX/LA-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP
OoT
.....\MM-TP
can work

...../-TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-OoX-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP
can work

...../-TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP-OoX/LA-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP
can work

BUT
...../-TWW/PH-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP
AND
...../-TWW/PH-OoX/LA-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP-LoZ/AoL
OoT
.....\MM-TP
MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!

So, I'm sorry to say, but your timeline is the weakest of all...

EDIT:
BTW, I was reading SoM's post in ZD, and I realized something: I DO have a game in which an ancient demon used a trident. OoT.

^ just pointing out. His name is "Phantom" Ganon. He is more of a spirit than a demon.

Hey kid, you did quite well...
It looks like you may be gaining
some slight skill...
But you have defeated only my
phantom...
When you fight the real me, it
won't be so easy!
What a worthless creation that
ghost was! I will banish it to
the gap between dimensions!!

Evil Spirit sounds a lot like demon to me.

Spirits are dead, demons are not. If he was a demon. It would say "evil demon." Or even "Evil spirit of a demon."

Originally Posted by Skylark

Spirits are dead, demons are not.

Spirits are simply non-corporeal, meaning they do not have a mortal body.

Originally Posted by Smertios

There is a lighter blue shade below the mountains in the horizon. It can be a body of water. Not necessarily an ocean though...

It's not the same shade of blue as the water shown in the rivers, though.

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of taking background images into consideration. I'm just trying to make them fit, if they are so important...

They aren't all-important. We just know that Hyrule extends further north than we see in TMC, but we already knew that usually the gameplay/in-game maps don't show everything.

Maō means "Demon King". It is not a title, just a generic description, like Human President. Daimaō means "Big Demon King". It is a description with an adjective, not an specific title.

Maō of Darkness (Yami no Maō), on the other hand, is a vey specific title. My point here is that he can easily have the title of Yami no Maō while he is still a daimaō, so OoX is not necesserily the point in which he changes his titles. It could just as well be a point in which he has both titles...

I agree; it is possible.

However, if you want to assert that he was known by daimaou in, say, aLttP, you need hard evidence to establish as much. I, on the other hand, have hard evidence to say that he is known as daimaou in LoZ and in OoX by the people reviving him. If Ganon being shown in pig form with a trident is all that important, why isn't this?

They could have made a few artistic connections if they wanted, like Link's hair being brown, for example. But they didn't do anything like that...

He has a Triforce mark on his left hand and uses a Wooden Sword.

Other official nintendo sources said OoT-LttP/(LA)-LoZ/AoL. That's the Nintendo's order

Quotes?

Really? I don't see many similarities there. Can you provide a quote??

I've been looking. Most TWW searches bring up recent interviews... Maybe GameSpot will have it.

Point being?

So it not being shown is really insubstantial to say that LoZ is not connected to OoX.

People told me he wasn't called so in the the SNES version and that he was called Jyaki somthing or Jaaki something.

He was called jyaku no ou (I think?), meaning "king of evil," in the manual prologue, referring it seems to Ganon's repeat threats against Hyrule throughout the series.

Speaking?!

In three triangles.

Since text in AoL is practically nonexistent.

Of course, but those are also in many other games. i meant exclusive enemies...

Armos that walk are only in LoZ, LA, OoX, and TMC.
Armos that hop are in other games.

The only way they can change the timeline is if they make new releases of old games changing stuff.

Not true; see TP.

Originally Posted by Skylark

^ just pointing out. His name is "Phantom" Ganon. He is more of a spirit than a demon.

In some cultures, demons are evil spirits. I don't know about the japanese culture though...

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

It's not the same shade of blue as the water shown in the rivers, though.

Because its too far. Normal mountains wouldn't be like that if they were before the last ones, they would be darker, not brighter...

They aren't all-important. We just know that Hyrule extends further north than we see in TMC, but we already knew that usually the gameplay/in-game maps don't show everything.

I'll agree with that. But we also see land behind the mountain in FS...

I agree; it is possible.

However, if you want to assert that he was known by daimaou in, say, aLttP, you need hard evidence to establish as much. I, on the other hand, have hard evidence to say that he is known as daimaou in LoZ and in OoX by the people reviving him. If Ganon being shown in pig form with a trident is all that important, why isn't this?

It is just as important, but I interpretate it differently than you do. Because daimaō is just a generic description that fits Ganon in every game. And Yami no Maō is a very specific title...

He has a Triforce mark on his left hand and uses a Wooden Sword.

Fair enough, but that's all...

Quotes?

It was in the boxes and promotional material...

I've been looking. Most TWW searches bring up recent interviews... Maybe GameSpot will have it.

i'll see if I can find it...

So it not being shown is really insubstantial to say that LoZ is not connected to OoX.

I agree there, but i also believe that OoX has a lot of evidence supporting its connection to LttP and LA...

He was called jyaku no ou (I think?), meaning "king of evil," in the manual prologue, referring it seems to Ganon's repeat threats against Hyrule throughout the series.

I see. But is he referred to as Yami no Maō in-game in the SNES version of LttP?

In three triangles.

Since text in AoL is practically nonexistent.

I agree...

Armos that walk are only in LoZ, LA, OoX, and TMC.
Armos that hop are in other games.

I'll annalyse tat fact and reply to this later...

Not true; see TP.

I don't think that was the case. In my opinion the split was always there and we were just too stuborn to see it