Geography or the AoL BS?

About the same way you and Olly explaining all of Hyrule's bordering trees turning into mountains.
They could burn down yes, but again...how exactly did mountains appear/disappear all around Hyrule. Where'd the eastern mountains go? Why'd the northern trees turn into mountains?

And I still don't get why everyone's all hung up over that FSA. There are two very small slightly mountainous islands far off in the distance. That doesn't even come close to explaining AoL's vast mountain range.

Stop avoiding it. Explain "AoL's vast mountain range" just disappearing.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Lands disappearing makes just as much sense as a forest disappearing.

Have you ever seen or heard of land disappearing in your lifetime? Now think about all the naturally started fires that burn down trees in forests. Not to mention loggers and people who need wood for other things. Usually everything you say is very logical, but I just can't agree with that. Disappearing trees is totally acceptable. That much land just vanishing is unheard of. It has never happened. Maybe it has because of ocean levels or some environmentalist crap like that, but when we know that land is supposed to be forming...it's crazy.

Also, in aLttP, the eastern side of Hyrule is bordered by mountains/cliffs

In AoL, that section of the little kingdom is bordered by water. Now you could say that there's water beyond the mountains/cliffs in aLttP, but again, there's a complete lack of mountains on that side of Hyrule.

I think those are definitely cliffs. Compare them to DM. Anyway, cliffs erode, especially when near, you know, an ocean. If there's water right on the other side of those, it would undoubtedly wear them away given enough time.

Essentially for aLttP to connect to AoL geographically, every place where there's trees...the trees have to magically turn into mountains. There must have been a ****load of tectonic platemovement...that only affected the outskirts of the litte kingdom, and not the inner parts.

Not the outskirts or the inner parts. The land to the north. And it doesn't take a ****load of plate movement to create an area of mountains that large. Look at the mountain ranges we have here. The Western Cordilleras, the Himalayas, the Alps, and the Appalachians all formed from a couple of nice plate collisions.

My main point is...mountains forming, cliffs eroding, and forests burning are all possible. We know it can happen, and it has many times. With map comparisons, as long as it can happen, it's okay. Are you going to complain about every little detail of difference with the ALttP and LoZ maps? Anyway, land disappearing like that can not happen. If you want to say it was flooded or whatever, go ahead, but it won't work because even if it was flooded we would still see the peaks of all those mountains. Also, the Koroks would probably just create more land there. I can explain the geographical changes in my timeline. You have a change that can't be explained at all.

Not only can it not be explained, it makes your placement of LoZ and AoL completely illogical. TWW lays out for us how games on the AT are supposed to be ordered, and then FSA uses the concept to show that LoZ and AoL are supposed to be at the end of the AT. You can't ignore that or try to make it less important than it is.

I live in the mountains where it is extremely cold (actually it is snowing right now) and I live pretty high up. Trees are fine.

Coniferous though right? Not the ones in ALttP which are Decidous.

@Erimgard: Forests burn plus the fact that the camera DOES NOT show us forests are far as the eye can see.....it shows us downwards not outwards.

Basicly you have no way to explain the mountains and land and.....everything else that Ollathir said; but we can.

Since this seems to be the main thread for attacking early LoZ right now, here is a list of its problems, certain and questionable...


-disappearing land

-Hyrule goes from one country to separate countries back to one country. It coes back to one country because...the land that the other countries were on disappeared.

-The SAs seem to have been created or at least come from the Great Fairy in ALttP, which indicates that LoZ is after ALttP.

-TMC is implied to be the first time a Hero of Hyrule wears a green hat. Having LoZ before TMC ruins this.

There is some considerable evidence against it.

-Agreed
-Agreed
-Maybe. Hard to say.
-There is OoX Link and I disagree with that piece of evidence, anyway

If the Sleeping Zelda is awakened would there be any point in continuing to name princesses Zelda?

Great find!

A: The Deku Tree is connecting the islands by making them grow. Planting trees doesn't cause tectonic plate movments.

Trees don't make islands move. Trees don't make islands grow. Both are equality ridiculous in a non-magical reality.

@Ollathir: You do know that all mountains are in chains (minus island hot spots) and were created over the course of millions of years right? At the speed you speak of, there would be too many earthquakes to make those places safe to live in. The same would happen with the growth of the land. I'm not saying mountains don't appear in the Zelda timeline, I'm just saying it's illogical no matter how you look at it. Also, the time scale isn't enough to justify mountains eroding either. Basically what I'm saying is... there's a lot of magic at work.

Originally Posted by Ollathir

Would you rather stick with a timeline that sacrifices geography completely for perfect story continuation?

Yes, although I think my timeline has the best geographical connections by far. The fact that a piece of land we don't visit in the game isn't in sight on that game's atlas doesn't really constitute a problem to me anyway.

Hyrule Castle Town isn't in LoZ, FSA, or ALttP, and Hyrule Castle doesn't appear at all in LoZ. Does that mean that the kingdom in LoZ, FSA, and ALttP must be different from the kingdoms with castle towns and castles?

...Or a timeline that makes no geographical sacrifices and still only has one small storyline problem?

No storyline problem is as small as a geography problem.

Stop stalling and explain the entire continent in AoL disappearing for FSA.

I want to hear an answer for that now. I'm tired of waiting around for it.

After you reply to my first question reply to my next statement. But only after you reply to my first question.

Yes, although I think my timeline has the best geographical connections by far.

How in hell does your timeline have better geography than Smertios'?

Maybe it doesn't have an answer SoM. But the point is, it's is much more likely that the creators work more on the storyline than the geography, especially when they have games in 2-D and 3-D format.

Also, a large amount of time can pass between PH and LoZ. Hell, lands need to form, that can take thousands and thousands of years. So having AoL after LttP doesn't mean the land couldn't form until then. It could have formed in ours, and then gone away.

Also of note: Land can dissapear. You guys have never heard of islands sinking due to geological pressure (including plate tectonics)? It can happen. I don't think its a good arguement, since there is no way in hell Nintendo did geological reseach before making the game maps, but the point is it can happen.

@Erimgard: That was some valient theorising. Respect.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

In aLttP, stand on death mountain and look to the north....
Trees as far as the eye can see. In determining an aLttP-LoZ connection, the aLttP map is worth a bit more than the FSA one.

aLttP's map says that north of the Death Mountan peak/s with spectacle rock is a vast forest. AoL says that north of the spectacle is an incredibly vast mountain range significantly larger than the aLttP one.

That is pretty easy. Land is growing remember? In my timeline and in Ollathir's, we have water, becomeing plains with trees, becoming mountains.

You have mountains, becoming water, becoming plain land with trees. I have to ask you: how? Considering land is supposed to be growing after TWW...

How did a forest magically turn into mountains, especially when the Koroks are trying to make more forested land, not more mountainous land?

A mountain with dead trees on top, I must add. I mean, look at the area west of Death Mountain in LoZ. There are mountains, but with trees on top. That's where the Lost Woods were in LttP. In AoL, the mountains no longer have trees on top.

The forest died with time, that's all.

You have yet to explain how the mountains became water again....

Originally Posted by Erimgard

A: The Deku Tree is connecting the islands by making them grow. Planting trees doesn't cause tectonic plate movments.
B: Who says it's a short amount of time between PH and AoL?
C: Do you really expect an NES overworld map for a game with a weird overworld/sidescroll two-way view to be completely accurate in proportions?

A: Now tell me, how can an island grow?? Land has to come to the surfice, right? Then why would it stop growing?? If we have water->plains->mountains, we have land growing bigger...

Now, on topic of the OP. I still didn't understand what is the problem with your AoL BS placement, Ollathir...

I'm ranting here.

The reason geography is so important here is because of how it's been set up. TWW says it plain and simple. Land will be growing, so the game where the most land exists is at the very end. The trouble is, we didn't know how much land existed at any time except in AoL because all the maps stopped at the borders of the kingdom of Hyrule except in the case of OoX, so there was no way to place anything based on growth of land.

Then FSA came out and showed us that the kingdom of Hyrule was still its own island at that point in the timeline. In FSA, Nintendo is screaming at us that AoL is at the end of the AT. TMC came out and showed us there wasn't a lot of land on Hyrule's area of the Great Sea at all. PH came out and showed us an area of islands that would later become land.

Every AT game after TWW has used the concept of growing land to display its own placement and the placements of other games in the timeline. The growth of land concept is possibly the most important way of communicating timeline intent in the history of the series.

The land wasn't meant to appear and the disappear. So Nintendo was trying to trick us by making us believe land is growing and then having it disappear? Okay. I get it. No. It can only mean one thing: LoZ and AoL are at the end of the AT.

So you have a big geography problem. Land disappears. Leave the whole situation with land growing aside and that's the problem you have. Just some disappearing land, that's all. It's not that bad. But when you consider how much the concept of growing land had been used, and how it has to mean that LoZ and AoL are at the end of the AT, you've got more than just a little geographical problem. You've got clear intent against your placement.

If Nintnedo wanted LoZ and AoL to be early, they wouldn't have told us land is growing and then show us that AoL has the most land, which places it...right at the end of the AT. They might have changed their mind since then, but if you continue to place LoZ and AoL where they do, you're going to have to show us evidence that they did.

The way you talk about your geography problem is the biggest understatement of any problem I've seen in theorizing. Basically, growth of land means your placement is wrong, plain and simple.

Let's not forget the land on Tetra's globe where Labrynna and Holodrum could be even then, and the references to OoX in TMC and FSA. There's Din and Nayru coming from a long line of priestesses and a distant land, the library books, and the inscription near the trident.

These things indicate that OoX was not affected by growth of land. TWW showed that there was already land for Labrynna and Holodrum to be on even before small islands started being connected. TMC and FSA show that OoX almost definitely did happen before then.

Now why would Nintendo use things to show that OoX remained early despite the growing land but not do that with LoZ and AoL? Maybe because...oh I don't know...because LoZ and AoL were placed at the end of the AT by growth of land?

I'm done ranting now. I just needed to let off some steam.

I just thought of something. I've already said the idea of trees making land grow or move is illogical, although magic could account for that.

A more logical explanation for land expansion via trees is that the trees could suck up water and the sea level slowly drops. The scale is ridiculous, but the concept is less so than tree driven plate tectonics.

And I don't know if people got it when I said it takes millions of years for continental drift to happen on the scale we're talking about. It's illogical no matter how you look at it.

@Ollathir: It's ridiculous to think that the timeline changes from time to time. If that is really so, it's pointless to theorize.

@Caulaincourt: That is not the case. In OoA, we actually see how land grow bigger


You can see that it is not the sea level that is droping, but the land level that is raising. Otherwise we'd see all land growing, not only part of it...

@Smertios: I got your point. It wasn't something I rally believed in. I was just going through ideas of how the trees could work. Although at the time OoA came out I thought the island drift had to do with the sea of storms and the new land with the sea of no return.

The space between the coast and the Ancient Tomb seems to small to be very deep. I know when you dive it is deep and surrounded by cliffs but in that sense the entire Labrynna sea is the same depth everywhere, with the coast dropping as a cliff as soon as the water begins. It's too ridiculous to be taken seriously. I think, because the sea o' no return is probably shallow, it could easily have become blocked up in the course of those four hundred years. It's only a few paces wide so I don't think the movement of the landmass is the cause.


About Maze Island in PH/AoL. You do all realize that not only does the island have to grow over hundreds of years but it's maze has to be maintained and expanded accordingly. For hundreds of years. When no one actually lives there in either game (I think).

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Stop stalling and explain the entire continent in AoL disappearing for FSA.

Explain the entire mountain range behind Hyrule Castle disappearing between TMC and FSA.

Originally Posted by Ollathir

Now why would Nintendo use things to show that OoX remained early despite the growing land but not do that with LoZ and AoL?

I presume because:

1) LoZ and AoL are adjacent to OoX in the timeline
2) LoZ and AoL were the first Zelda games ever and have not been remade
3) Because OoX was not developed with the flood in mind anyway
4) Because the only problems with LoZ and AoL being early in the timeline after the flood ignore all of these facts

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Explain the entire mountain range behind Hyrule Castle disappearing between TMC and FSA.

There is a body of water separating it from the rest of the land in TMC...

1) LoZ and AoL are adjacent to OoX in the timeline
2) LoZ and AoL were the first Zelda games ever and have not been remade
3) Because OoX was not developed with the flood in mind anyway
4) Because the only problems with LoZ and AoL being early in the timeline after the flood ignore all of these facts

1) Agreed. This is hinted by the fact that both Labrynna and Holodrum have similarities with AoL map... I also have to point to the many similarities between OoX and LttP, indicating that, at the time of OoX release, the AT was either OoT-LoZ/AoL-OoX-LttP/La or OoT-LttP/LA-OoX-LoZ/AoL...

2) True statement.

3) That is true. But TWW came just after OoX, meaning that it is not impossible for them to have OoA map in mind when they made that quote by the Deku Tree in TWW...

4) Well, maybe Ollathir, but I don't...

The thing is, there isn't much to say that OoX remained in the early placement, only the trident. There is way more connecting OoX to LttP/LA and to LoZ/AoL. And Ollathir is preferring to ignore that evidence and take only the trident and the Oracles in TMc in credit...

Originally Posted by Smertios

There is a body of water separating it from the rest of the land in TMC...

No, there isn't.

There is a forest and a river. (see "climbing a beanstalk")

1) Well, I personally don't think geography has anything to do with it. We know they were trying to remake LoZ, and we know they wound up not doing this in the end, so they probably just made LoZ sequels instead as there's no other indication. They still used the same three swords as that game, for example.

2, 3) Aye.

4) What's your damage with an early LoZ placement, then?

OoS/OoA does certainly connect to LoZ and ALttP at the time of its release. But a bunch more games have been made since then.

The thing is, there isn't much to say that OoX remained in the early placement, only the trident. There is way more connecting OoX to LttP/LA and to LoZ/AoL. And Ollathir is preferring to ignore that evidence and take only the trident and the Oracles in TMc in credit...

Actually what is there connecting OoX to LttP?

The only reason I ever placed OoX between LttP and LA was for the LA references. I don't even know of any LttP references.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

No, there isn't.

There is a forest and a river. (see "climbing a beanstalk")

See Mt. Crenel and Veil falls background pics... I see a body of water before the mountains...

The beanstalk image can't be taken into consideration, considering it is part of a sidequest and it conflics with the Mt. Crenel image. The background for the beanstalk in Mt.Crenel should be the same one for Mt. Crenel, but they were too lazy for that...

1) Well, I personally don't think geography has anything to do with it. We know they were trying to remake LoZ, and we know they wound up not doing this in the end, so they probably just made LoZ sequels instead as there's no other indication. They still used the same three swords as that game, for example.

Sequels or prequels. It could be both considering we had two official sources with different timelines.

4) What's your damage with an early LoZ placement, then?

There is no damage for LoZ---OoX. Actually, OoX fits perfectly after AoL too. But there is also no damage for LttP---OoX.

Trust me, I spent several months trying to decide weather OoX was supposed to follow LttP or LoZ. But everything in OoX seemed to match LttP better than LoZ. Ganon, the trident, how the triforce is depicted, official art...

OoS/OoA does certainly connect to LoZ and ALttP at the time of its release. But a bunch more games have been made since then.

The thing is, if you believed Miyamoto's order, it makes sense for the the FS subseries to have weakened the double connection of OoX to LttP and LoZ.

But, if you believed Nintendo's order instead, it wouldn't even interfere with those connections.

Currently, i believe that either my timeline and yours is likely to be the correct one. Ollathir's is also strong, but I doubt they ever changed the official timeline at any point, which ollathir claims for his timeline to work...

EDIT:

Actually what is there connecting OoX to LttP?

The only reason I ever placed OoX between LttP and LA was for the LA references. I don't even know of any LttP references.

You have to understand that, when OoX was released, it only made sense to follow either LoZ or LttP. And everything in OoX is more similar to LttP than to LoZ.

(1) The first thing you'll notice is the art. Official art for OoX was clearly inspired by LttP's.

(2) Then you'll look at Ganon. He had the trident in both OoX and LttP, but not in LoZ. It makes more sense for Ganon with the trident to be ressurected in oox than for Ganon without the trident be ressurected and mysteriously have access to the trident.

And please keep in mind that FSA was not being developed yet when OoX was released, so there was no trident backstory yet and the only two games in which Ganon had the trident were LttP and OoX.

(4) Now you can look at Ganon's title. The first time he was ever called YnM was in ooX. Later they changed his title for the GBA version of LttP. Suspicious, ain't it?

(5) And there is the triforce, which is depicted the exact same way in LttP and OoX: flying separate talking pieces...

(6) The enemies from OoX are also the same ones from LA, and LA has several similar enemies to LttP, which means these three (or four) games are connected somehow.

(7) And last, but not least, there is the fact that they used the same (or a very similar one) engine for OoX and LA. The only other time that happened was with TMC, FS and FSA, and we all know that those games are connected...