Back to the old debate

I don't know why you guys keep doing this, but everytime a timeline debate goes off-topic the starters of the thread request them to be closed.

So I decided to create a thread in which we can discusseverything that was being discussed before but taking it as on-topic. Here is what this thread is about:

-The LoZ/AoL debate on weather it should be after or before LttP.
-Destroying Pinecove's timeline
-The AoL BS and where it fits
-The OoX placement
-Ganon's titles and the trident
-the triforce state through the timeline
-Everything else related to one of the above itens somehow.

So, onto business:

On Pinecove's timeline:

Well I've given it some thought...

OoT-LoZ/AoL-TWW/PH-OoX&TMCBS-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
OoT/MM-TP

Do your worst. I have the Triforce argument all set.

OoT-LoZ/AoL-TWW can't work because:

1. The ToC was hidden in LoZ/AoL, so OoT can't really be LoZ BS. If that was the case, Ganon should have stolen just the ToP, considering the triforce couldn't be full because the ToC was hidden. Also, he would need to steal it from the castle and not from the SR. And also, OoT Zelda can't be the sleeping princess because she is blonde. The sleeping princess as brown hair...

2. There is no indication that an ocean existed before the flood. No YT game taking place in Hyrule has an ocean or mentions one. However, the existence of a post-flood ocean has been proven. So it makes more sense for LoZ/AoL to come after TWW.

3. Ganondorf broke free of the SR in TWW BS only once. And no hero came to help. That's why the flood happened. So, by your timeline, either LoZ is TWW BS, and the 'no hero' part is ignored, or it is not and the 'he broke free of the SR only once' part is ignored...

4. Geo ties LoZ to the OoT-->TWW-->TRR-->TMC-->FSA-->LttP line. More land is growing there after all.

So stop being stuborn and com back to our side

Now, on the trident issue, people have been claiming that the trident is needed for Ganon to be ressurected, so, if Ganon does not have the triforce in LoZ, he couldn't be ressurected after LttP. I believe that they say this based on OoX.

In my timeline this isn't a problem exactly because of OoX. OoX states that three flames have to be lit and an yorishiro used for the ressurection to take place. The flames to bring the soul back and the yorishiro is to put it into the body.

In AoL, we see that they can bring the soul back withoutthe three flames, but with the blood of the person who killed him. But an yorishiro is still needed for the body. They use the ashes as yorishiro there. This means that it's not the trident that is needed for the ressurection, but any yorishiro.

i'll post only about these issues, but the others can and sould be discussed here too...

Good effort Smertios, but I doubt we'll be seeing any more success here than elsewhere. I'm behind you 100% however.

Originally Posted by Caulaincourt

Good effort Smertios, but I doubt we'll be seeing any more success here than elsewhere. I'm behind you 100% however.

But the problem is that all other threads have been closed because the original starters wanted so. I'm making sure that this one won't by being the starter of it myself

Ingenius!!!

Sweet Din, I thought that "OoT-LoZ-AoL-WW" thing was just a joke. *weeps*
That said, I'm going to play devil's advocate again

A: The translated Hylian Text in the Wind Waker intro says that prior to the goddesses flooding Hyrule Ganon was revived for some unknown reason. That word can simply mean "brought back" [as in, from the seal] but it can refer to death as well.

B: As I've stated many times, LoZ's backstory almost perfectly matches Ocarina of Time

C: Eiji Aonuma recently stated "Adventure of Link takes place after the events of Ocarina of Time". This does not necessarilly mean LoZ/AoL has to immediately sequel the game, but it could.


Now, to be fair, I'll throw something at Pinecove too:
In 2002, soon before Wind Waker's release, Shigeru Miyamoto was quoted as saying Wind Waker is "early" in the timeline and "before the other games". Clearly it cannot precede Ocarina of Time, but the implication was that it came before any of the other games [on that timeline anyway]

Can't be resurrected without the trident? That's just retarded. He could be resurrected in AoL. Now either that means he has the trident. Or it means he can be resurrected without the trident. In BS LoZ Ganon had the trident. In AST Ganon revived himself. In AST Ganon had the trident. Ganon should still have the trident and he can revive himself.

The LoZ backstory might match OoT. But I didn't see Zelda split the ToW. We have no clue who the scroll writer could have been. And the end of AoL makes no sense in tWW.

Ganon didn't take an army corps and seize the ToP. He came to hyrule and seized it himself.

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Ca
The LoZ backstory might match OoT But I didn't see Zelda split the ToW .

LoZ implies that the splitting of the ToW was a recent event, whereas Ganon's invasion was "long ago".

Ganon didn't take an army corps and seize the ToP. He came to hyrule and seized it himself.

The dying soldier in the alley states that he tried to stop "Ganondorf's men". He had followers with him.

And the end of AoL makes no sense in tWW

ding ding ding! We have a winner.

OoT-LoZ matches up so well because that was the original intent. Wind Waker severed that. Forever.

It seems to me that Zelda splitting the ToW happened at almost the same time Ganon took the ToP.

Also, the ToC would have already been hidden. Which makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

It seems to me that Zelda splitting the ToW happened at almost the same time Ganon took the ToP.

Also, the ToC would have already been hidden. Which makes no sense.

MANY YEARS AGO PRINCE DARKNESS "GANNON" STOLE ONE OF THE TRIFORCE WITH POWER. PRINCESS ZELDA HAD ONE OF THE TRIFORCE WITH WISDOM. SHE DIVIDED IT INTO 8 UNITS TO HIDE IT FROM "GANNON" BEFORE SHE WAS CAPTURED. GO FIND THE "8" UNITS "LINK" TO SAVE HER.

The quote's kinda ambiguous. Ganon's actions were specified as happening "many years ago". Zelda's actions are in past tense, but not included in that "many years ago" sentence.

Also, the manual says that at the same time as she split the ToW up, she sent Impa off to find you. The game is supposed to begin right after Impa found you.

Therefore, it appears that:
1: Ganon stole the Triforce many years ago
2: Zelda spli the ToW up in the recent past


Also, in regard to the ToC being hidden...
At this current place in time, that cannot work in corelattion to the AoL BS being right after OoT, becuase the Triforce is split up. Sorry Pinecove, but to put OoT-LoZ now would be to blatantly disregard the AoL BS.

However, at the time of OoT's release, the AoL Bacstory had been shortened, and no longer talked of a King ruling with the Triforce or a scroll writer owning the complete Triforce. Thus, the scenario is as follows:

-OoT serves as the time when Ganon invaded and took the ToP
-With Link sent back in time, he lost his ToC, and it was hidden for protection, setting the stage for AoL.
-Ganon escapes the Dark World, and Zelda splits the ToW in defense, setting the stage for LoZ.

Like I said though, the most recent, and therefore most canon, AoL release has the COMPLETE backstory and that absolutely cannot function with an OoT-LoZ placement.

Hmmm

Originally Posted by The japanese version quote

One day, the Great Demon King Ganon, who planned to rule the world with darkness and fear, led an evil army corps and invaded the kingdom and snatched the Triforce of Power.

That's from the manual. My quote was the in-game one. The manual doesn't specify when he invaded, but the game says it was years ago. I don't if a translation exists for that or not though.

Ohhh. Ok now I see. Well I can't just 100% agree with you

or a scroll writer owning the complete Triforce. Thus, the scenario is as follows:

Nothing ever says that the scroll writer had the full triforce. I agree it is kind of implied. But it only says that the ToP and the ToW are still in hyrule castle to be recieved. I don't think it says anything else.

(Like I said. I could agree with you 100% I had to find something to disagree with)

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Sweet Din, I thought that "OoT-LoZ-AoL-WW" thing was just a joke. *weeps*
That said, I'm going to play devil's advocate again

You are weird

A: The translated Hylian Text in the Wind Waker intro says that prior to the goddesses flooding Hyrule Ganon was revived for some unknown reason. That word can simply mean "brought back" [as in, from the seal] but it can refer to death as well.

You answered yourself. And you are still forgetting the 'no hero came' line.

B: As I've stated many times, LoZ's backstory almost perfectly matches Ocarina of Time

If it wasn't for the fact that the ToC was hidden...

Now, to be fair, I'll throw something at Pinecove too:
In 2002, soon before Wind Waker's release, Shigeru Miyamoto was quoted as saying Wind Waker is "early" in the timeline and "before the other games". Clearly it cannot precede Ocarina of Time, but the implication was that it came before any of the other games [on that timeline anyway]

This will be good for pinecove. He likes interviews...

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Can't be resurrected without the trident? That's just retarded. He could be resurrected in AoL. Now either that means he has the trident. Or it means he can be resurrected without the trident. In BS LoZ Ganon had the trident. In AST Ganon revived himself. In AST Ganon had the trident. Ganon should still have the trident and he can revive himself

I'm saying exactly that...
They were arguing that, if LoZ Ganon does not have the trident, LoZ couldn't come after LttP because Ganon wouldn't be able to ressurect himself...

Originally Posted by Erimgard

LoZ implies that the splitting of the ToW was a recent event, whereas Ganon's invasion was "long ago".

The ToP works, the ToW works, the only problem is the ToC...

The dying soldier in the alley states that he tried to stop "Ganondorf's men". He had followers with him.

Dying soldier in LoZ?

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

Also, the ToC would have already been hidden. Which makes no sense.

^^

Originally Posted by Erimgard

That's from the manual. My quote was the in-game one. The manual doesn't specify when he invaded, but the game says it was years ago. I don't if a translation exists for that or not though.

In-game dying soldier in LoZ?

The dying soldier is in OoT Smertios!
LoZ states Ganon had an "army corps" with him when he personally snatched the ToP, OoT's dying solider states that Ganon had some men with him when he invaded Hyrule.

Also, WW says the Hero of Time did not return. It doesn't say there was no Hero, just not the Hero of Time.
However, that begs the question "Why the hell were they waiting for the Hero of Time when they had LoZ Link??"

@SoM
Oh you, just can't side with me, eh?
I double checked the AoL manual. You're right, it's implied that the Scroll Writer had all three but he only specifically says he hid the ToC. The ToW and ToP remain in the land, but he didn't specifically put them there.

However, the ToP was not "in the land" post-OoT. It was in the Dark World. Still doesn't work.

@Piney
So uh...how exactly did Ganon come back to life AND get the ToP after AoL?

Can't be resurrected without the trident? That's just retarded. He could be resurrected in AoL. Now either that means he has the trident. Or it means he can be resurrected without the trident. In BS LoZ Ganon had the trident. In AST Ganon revived himself. In AST Ganon had the trident. Ganon should still have the trident and he can revive himself.

His soul wasn't in the trident before ooX. Thus the resurrection attempt in AoL is perfectly doable.

There were two sources hinting he had the trident in LoZ.
1) art. I found that the art we all thought was for LoZ was actually for alltp, as there are other pictures with alltp enemies (exclusive at the time)
2) BS LoZ- Without the art supporting it, it doesn't hold as much ground, as the game is in a "replica" world.

The ooX ressurection (and AoL) revolved around calling Ganon's soul from wherever it was back into his body(ashes) or vessel(trident) If it is still in the trident after alltp, that form will not work, as it is already in a vessel. So unless you can prove that his soul left the trident after alltp. LoZ Ganon is impossible.

2) BS LoZ- Without the art supporting it, it doesn't hold as much ground, as the game is in a "replica" world.

That doesn't mean it isn't accurate. And it shows what the intent was.

The ooX ressurection (and AoL) revolved around calling Ganon's soul from wherever it was back into his body(ashes) or vessel(trident) If it is still in the trident after alltp, that form will not work, as it is already in a vessel. So unless you can prove that his soul left the trident after alltp. LoZ Ganon is impossible.

That sounds kind of like fanfic. I don't really see what the problem is. Ganon can revive himself. So I don't see any kind of problem. (Or the soul split theory that you believe and you can't get rid of)

Originally Posted by Skylark

His soul wasn't in the trident before ooX. Thus the resurrection attempt in AoL is perfectly doable.

There were two sources hinting he had the trident in LoZ.
1) art. I found that the art we all thought was for LoZ was actually for alltp, as there are other pictures with alltp enemies (exclusive at the time)
2) BS LoZ- Without the art supporting it, it doesn't hold as much ground, as the game is in a "replica" world.

The ooX ressurection (and AoL) revolved around calling Ganon's soul from wherever it was back into his body(ashes) or vessel(trident) If it is still in the trident after alltp, that form will not work, as it is already in a vessel. So unless you can prove that his soul left the trident after alltp. LoZ Ganon is impossible.

But what evidence do you have to say that his soul was still in the trident in LttP to begin with? If you can't provide evidence for that, I certainly don't need to provide evidence to how his soul left the trident after LttP...

Originally Posted by Sign of Madness

That doesn't mean it isn't accurate. And it shows what the intent was. That sounds kind of like fanfic. I don't really see what the problem is. Ganon can revive himself. So I don't see any kind of problem. (Or the soul split theory that you believe and you can't get rid of)

Then explain all the other ports of LoZ with no changes.

Ganon only revived himself in AST, he had the trident.
In AoL and OoX he needed outside assitance. Guess what, he didn't have it yet in OoX, and we are still debating AoL.

But what evidence do you have to say that his soul was still in the trident in LttP to begin with? If you can't provide evidence for that, I certainly don't need to provide evidence to how his soul left the trident after LttP...

We are told of his soul going into the trident. We are not told that it ever left. What evidence is there to even hint that it is no longer there?

The fact that he becomes the Yami no Maou in FSA when he claims the Trident would imply the Ganon spirit entered his body at that point, in my humble opinion.

Then explain all the other ports of LoZ with no changes.

Ganon only revived himself in AST, he had the trident.
In AoL and OoX he needed outside assitance. Guess what, he didn't have it yet in OoX, and we are still debating AoL.

How many ports of LoZ have there been without any changes? Oh except for the NoA version correcting Gannon.

Well that doesn't even matter with the soulsplit theory.

We are told of his soul going into the trident. We are not told that it ever left. What evidence is there to even hint that it is no longer there?

Really? I was always under the impression that it implied that when FSA Ganondorf touched the trident he became the Yami no Maou. I didn't think he kept the Yami no Maou in his trident...