Minish Cap is first [Playing Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Smertios

But, before the flood, it is known that the different tribes used their specific names more than the generic word 'human'. In TMC, the word 'hylian' is not used at all...

This is what I was trying to point out... We know that, at some point after the flood, the word 'hylian' stopped being used...

Because by the time of TWW, the Sheikah were probably extinct and the Gerudos are never seen at all in the Great Sea. The Zoras aren't in the Great Sea, and the only Gorons in TWW are traveling merchants who come from a different land.

Basically it's just Hylians and Rito in The Great Sea, so there's really no point to calling themselves their exact race with so little races in The Great Sea to begin with.

And the same goes with TMC, because it's only Hylians and the Gorons who have dropped to fewer numbers.

and the Gerudos are never seen at all in the Great Sea.

PH disagrees.

Mc is first, yes is first! but just in the four sword chronology:

MC-FS-FSA.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

PH disagrees.

We don't even know if they are Gerudos.

That and the Ocean King's ocean is different from The Great Sea, region-wise.

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

We don't even know if they are Gerudos.

That and the Ocean King's ocean is different from The Great Sea, region-wise.

Yep. Jolene only use a pirate outfit, she isn't a gerudo.

Most people believe that the Gerudos became sea-faring pirates.....

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

Most people believe that the Gerudos became sea-faring pirates.....

She is a pirate in disgisse, just like her sister wears a mermaid outfit. She isn't a real pirate.
she pretend be a pirate like the gerudo pirates from Termina.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Read the tombstones in Kakariko Graveyard.

They don't say kakariko was founded by the Hylian king...

1) There's no evidence that the land was ever not called Hyrule.
2) The only people who have entered the forest are Link, his mother, and Ganondorf, up to the start of the game.

1) The mere fact that a 'unification of Hyrule' is mentioned indicates that there was no state called Hyrule even though that was the name of the land before the said unification...

2) And you know that because you know exactly who enetred the forest in all the period it existed? Or is it only because those are the only people you know that entered the forest?

The official map of ooT shows the forest as part of Hyrule...

Originally Posted by The Goron Moron

Because by the time of TWW, the Sheikah were probably extinct and the Gerudos are never seen at all in the Great Sea. The Zoras aren't in the Great Sea, and the only Gorons in TWW are traveling merchants who come from a different land.

Basically it's just Hylians and Rito in The Great Sea, so there's really no point to calling themselves their exact race with so little races in The Great Sea to begin with.

And the same goes with TMC, because it's only Hylians and the Gorons who have dropped to fewer numbers.

This is exactly my point if you didn't get that
and that is why the hylians became extinct by LttP...

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

I'll use the USA as an example. Before the Louisiana purchase or the purchase of any state, the USA was still the USA. It's just incorporating new territory into an already existing state.

You ever studied the 'unification' of the US in school?

Unfortunately, the Royal Family has an old tomb in Kakariko Graveyard.

And so does the Zora Royal Family. That does not indicate that they rule over the land. That indicates that the Kakariko graveyard is the only graveyard in all of Hyrule and that it's guarded by the Sheikah. Everyone has to be buried there and royal families will have special tombs

Also, the Shadow Temple's ship only moves when you play the Royal Family's song.

This just means that the Sheikah was already connected to the Hylian Royal Family by the time of the construction of the ST and Kakariko.

Notice that you need that song to enter Zora's Domain too. That does not mean that the Hylian King ruled those lands before the unification...

TWW explicitly states that the only time people wear the outfit is when they are aspiring to be like the Hero.

Thus indicating the start of a trend. And someone pointed to an island where everybody wears that outfit in TWW. I don't know for sure though...

Which is interesting considering that you're placing it before ALttP which does use the word.

LttP says for sure that its hyruleans are not Hylians, but just descended from them!!! So it has no hylians at all. TMC also has no hylians, OoT has a lot of them. take your own conclusions...

This is what I was trying to point out... We know that, at some point after the flood, the word 'hylian' stopped being used...

So if the word died out before TMC, how is it in ALttP?[/QUOTE]

No, we know that the hylians became extinct between OoT and LttP. Nothing is ever said about the word being lost at all. Like the fact that the Portuguese people are descendents of the Lusitanii tribe. They know that, but they don't call themselves Lusitanii anymore, even though both peoples called themselves humans all the time

Originally Posted by Smertios

Because Hylians are a race of humans

So if they can call Link a human in TP, why can't they in MC?

Kakariko was never stated to have been established by the Hylian Royal Family. Nor was it claimed that it was ruled by the Hylian King before the unification... The only thing we know is that it was founded by Impa. And that the Sheikah lived in other hidden villages too...

A: It was founded by a Sheikah, and originally only used for Sheikah
B: The Sheikah's job is to serve the Royal Family

....how is it not in subjection to the Royal Family?

There is only one Hylian temple in the whole game: The temple of Time. Maybe, the Temple of Light too, but that is argueable...

Time and Light, as you mentioned. The Shadow is clearly the work of the Sheikah, and they are in submission to the Hylian Royal Family.
And actually, I'm pretty sure almost all the temples have the Royal Family Crest in them somewhere, implying they were all Hylian structures.

It is, just rotate the map

Rotating the map does not make it congruent with OoT.

But you are assuming that it is a hero tradition and not a normal outfit that anyone could use (as hinted by TWW)..

So coincidentally, and by no general tradition, every hero has worn fairy garb, and also by complete coincidence, every hero has worn a hat except for one two completely unexplained incarnations?

Originally Posted by Erimgard

So if they can call Link a human in TP, why can't they in MC?

Because we know that, in OoT, they don't use the word human, but refer to themselves as Hylians. So before OoT they would do so too. We don't know about after OoT, but TP makes it clear that they started using the word human more at some point...

A: It was founded by a Sheikah, and originally only used for Sheikah
B: The Sheikah's job is to serve the Royal Family

....how is it not in subjection to the Royal Family?

A: correct
B: wrong, the Sheikah are said to protect the entire land of Hyrule, which include the Hylians.
C: they were never said to be subjects of the Hylian kings, just close allies...

Time and Light, as you mentioned. The Shadow is clearly the work of the Sheikah, and they are in submission to the Hylian Royal Family.
And actually, I'm pretty sure almost all the temples have the Royal Family Crest in them somewhere, implying they were all Hylian structures.

We don't know for sure if the ToL was built by Hylians. For me the archtecture is completely different...

And all temples have the Hylian simble? Do you have pics?

Rotating the map does not make it congruent with OoT.

Lanayru province does

So coincidentally, and by no general tradition, every hero has worn fairy garb, and also by complete coincidence, every hero has worn a hat except for one two completely unexplained incarnations?

exactly...

Originally Posted by Smertios

They don't say kakariko was founded by the Hylian king...

Better.

"Here lies the souls of those who
swore fealty to the
Royal Family of Hyrule."

It calls the Royal Family the "Royal Family of Hyrule." There was a Royal Family of Hyrule before OoT.

1) The mere fact that a 'unification of Hyrule' is mentioned indicates that there was no state called Hyrule even though that was the name of the land before the said unification...

2) And you know that because you know exactly who enetred the forest in all the period it existed? Or is it only because those are the only people you know that entered the forest?

1) No; it indicates that Hyrule was not an organized state, rather like how Greece and Rome were not organized states until they became united under common leadership. There was still a Royal Family of Hyrule, still a city of Hyrule, etc. etc.; OoT gives no indication that any of these things are new.

2) Because the forest is forbidden and the Kokiri haven't seen anybody from outside of it.

And so does the Zora Royal Family. That does not indicate that they rule over the land.

The existence of a Hyrule Royal Family does not necessarily indicate that they rule over the entire land of Hyrule. No one's arguing that the Hyrule king ruled those lands before OoT; in fact, we're arguing that there was a Hyrule king who didn't rule those lands, and that there is no indication that he had to have ruled those lands in TMC.

It is, just rotate the map

Yes, because rotating the map fixes everything, despite the fact that the sun would now move in a completely different way.

I'm just going to put these in here:



and

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Better.

"Here lies the souls of those who
swore fealty to the
Royal Family of Hyrule."

It calls the Royal Family the "Royal Family of Hyrule." There was a Royal Family of Hyrule before OoT.

Why couldn't the text have been added after the unification??

1) No; it indicates that Hyrule was not an organized state, rather like how Greece and Rome were not organized states until they became united under common leadership. There was still a Royal Family of Hyrule, still a city of Hyrule, etc. etc.; OoT gives no indication that any of these things are new.

Rome was unified since the begignning. So it's not a good example. Greece was never a single state before modern times., so, again, not a good example.

But I can agree that the land could have been named Hyrule before the unification...

2) Because the forest is forbidden and the Kokiri haven't seen anybody from outside of it.

Again, the forest is part of Hyrule in OoT...

The existence of a Hyrule Royal Family does not necessarily indicate that they rule over the entire land of Hyrule. No one's arguing that the Hyrule king ruled those lands before OoT; in fact, we're arguing that there was a Hyrule king who didn't rule those lands, and that there is no indication that he had to have ruled those lands in TMC.

They were arguing that the Hylian King ruled over Kakariko because the Royal Famly has a tomb in the graveyard.

I pointed out why that's not true...

Yes, because rotating the map fixes everything, despite the fact that the sun would now move in a completely different way.

details...

Now you are saying that you believe TMC-OoT---TP-LttP?

Now you are saying that you believe TMC-OoT---TP-LttP?

HELL NO!!!!!!!

I"m just saying that TMC-OoT works with geography and OoT-ALttP did too untill TP came out. Under almost no circumstances will I believe TMC to be first.

Originally Posted by Smertios

Why couldn't the text have been added after the unification??

Because the graveyard has existed for centuries.

Rome was unified since the begignning.

Not true. Rome was first a city, and only later a full kingdom/state. We're arguing that the same could be true for Hyrule in TMC; it is in the city-kingdom stage, not the country-kingdom stage.

They were arguing that the Hylian King ruled over Kakariko because the Royal Famly has a tomb in the graveyard.

King of Hyrule, not Hylian king. Again, if your beef with TMC being first is that there is a king and kingdom of Hyrule, you're ignoring the fact that OoT had both before the kingdom was unified.

details...

In both OoT and GC TP, the sun moves perfectly from east to west. If you rotate the map, this ceases to be true.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

HELL NO!!!!!!!

I"m just saying that TMC-OoT works with geography and OoT-ALttP did too untill TP came out. Under almost no circumstances will I believe TMC to be first.

It still works, despite TP...

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Because the graveyard has existed for centuries.

But why cant that specific grave have existed only for a few years?

Not true. Rome was first a city, and only later a full kingdom/state. We're arguing that the same could be true for Hyrule in TMC; it is in the city-kingdom stage, not the country-kingdom stage.

Rome was always a just city. But with time it started to conquer the lands of europe (starting by the Latium, after defeating the Latin League). Rome wasn't a vast land that was unified with time, but one city that conquered other lands with time...

King of Hyrule, not Hylian king. Again, if your beef with TMC being first is that there is a king and kingdom of Hyrule, you're ignoring the fact that OoT had both before the kingdom was unified.

This has yet to be proven...

And tat's just one of the reasons...

In both OoT and GC TP, the sun moves perfectly from east to west. If you rotate the map, this ceases to be true.

Gameplay details...
Or retcon, It doesn't matter, the important is that everything seems to be in the exact locations taking themselves as references...

Originally Posted by Smertios

But why cant that specific grave have existed only for a few years?

Because it's the grave of all the generations of Sheikah who gave their lives to serve the royal family?

Rome wasn't a vast land that was unified with time, but one city that conquered other lands with time...

Rome was a city that became the hub of a vast land.
Hyrule was a city that became the hub of a vast land.

This has yet to be proven...

There is absolutely zero evidence supporting the idea that the Hyrule King and Hyrule Royal Family only came about ten years before the start of OoT.

Or retcon, It doesn't matter, the important is that everything seems to be in the exact locations taking themselves as references...

If there's a retcon, why would places have to line up?

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Because it's the grave of all the generations of Sheikah who gave their lives to serve the royal family?

And this makes that one grave old exactly because...

Rome was a city that became the hub of a vast land.
Hyrule was a city that became the hub of a vast land.

But they did that by different means. The first conquered the other tribes by force, the second did it in peace...

There is absolutely zero evidence supporting the idea that the Hyrule King and Hyrule Royal Family only came about ten years before the start of OoT.

I'm telling you what a unification is. As far as I know, there is zero evidence that Hyrule existed before the unification...

If there's a retcon, why would places have to line up?

Because it's not a big one...

Originally Posted by Smertios

And this makes that one grave old exactly because...

Because the only logical conclusion is that a grave to many previous generations would have been erected many generations ago?

But they did that by different means. The first conquered the other tribes by force, the second did it in peace...

That's irrelevant to the idea that Hyrule was a kingdom prior to OoT.

I'm telling you what a unification is. As far as I know, there is zero evidence that Hyrule existed before the unification...

Besides the mounds of references to its royal family guarding things/being guarded for generations.