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  #21 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:18 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOZ Historian View Post
You may be taking that official "quote" too literally though... I have not seen your arguement for TP/LA......
No because when I first thought TP/LA, the quote was nowhere near my head.

I don't have an argument. Unless you count that TP Link and LA Link look the same. Age, facial and hair wise.
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  #22 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:26 PM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

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Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
I don't have an argument. Unless you count that TP Link and LA Link look the same. Age, facial and hair wise.
Well, no. Maybe you need to do your homework more before you lable yourself under a catagory... You seem sort of delusional - no offense. I'll PM you some stuff on what's consider the common canonical trends when I have more time. Currently, most people would say developer quotes and in-game texts our higher canon than simple visuals such as those.

Damn it. ZI still is not up...
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Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-18-2009 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:29 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

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Originally Posted by LOZ Historian View Post
You seem sort of delusional
I love being delusional, thank you.

If you had read my other posts and threads, no offense, you would know that I do consider interviews and original quotes more canon. All I said is that I wasn't thinking about Shigeru Miyamoto's quote during that time.
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  #24 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:34 PM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

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Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
I love being delusional, thank you.
Awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
If you had read my other posts and threads, no offense, you would know that I do consider interviews and original quotes more canon. All I said is that I wasn't thinking about Shigeru Miyamoto's quote during that time.
Eh. Well, you were seeming to trip back a few posts before like you couldn't make up your mind on whether the developer's intent was still accurate. Then you said something about those other observations, and I was sort of disillusioned by you. lol Sorry, I'm only trying to help you find your catagory.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-18-2009 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:38 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Hmm, good point.

How about this. We don't fully know whether developer intent has changed or not. While some things like OoX has possibly changed a few things with AST, we will never fully know. Anouma or Miyamoto aren't exactly willing to reveal everything. We don't even know if they have changed certain intent. Therefore, we don't know if intent has indeed been changed or not.

And thus, they leave us to decide for ourselves.
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  #26 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:42 PM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
And thus, they leave us to decide for ourselves.
I'm going to dub you an Innovative Zelda Theorist, since that concluding attitude of yours best reflects someone willing to see all points of views first hand.

From what I have seen in the past with others and everything you have said, I will predict you might become Non-Traditional down the road. But I could be wrong.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-18-2009 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-18-2009, 09:52 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

"Keeping bias stable, clear and unbiased."

Oh dear. I do not mix with LoZ/AoL well at all. There's no way I can keep that stable. But oh well. Thank you.
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  #28 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 05:59 PM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
"Keeping bias stable, clear and unbiased."

Oh dear. I do not mix with LoZ/AoL well at all. There's no way I can keep that stable. But oh well. Thank you.
You're welcome.

I'm not going to let this thread die yet. I'd like to see more diversified opinions; even though I've estimated most theorists around here are Traditional Zelda Theorists still.
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'The Historian Conscious'
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-19-2009 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 07:44 PM
Missing Inaction Missing Inaction is a male United States Missing Inaction is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

I don't know that I fit into any of those. them. I'm definitely somewhat innovative. I've got a streak of independent.

I believe that Nintendo is trying to get the timeline to work. No more endless damnation. There are certain details in certain games that make placement and timeline intent obvious. There are also plenty of things that show changing intent. I accept the most recent intent. I believe that the timeline is determined not only by obvious intent and certain quotes, (that wouldn't be enough anyway) but simply by what works best. Where intent does not tell us enough, we turn to theory and evidence. That's how it works, IMO.

How's that for a diversified answer?

EDIT: after looking back over them, I'm definitely Innovative. It seems to be the category you're in if you're not in any of the other three.
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Last Edited by Missing Inaction; 01-19-2009 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 07:53 PM
Commander GorMor Canada Commander GorMor is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Welcome to the Innovatives, Brother!
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  #31 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 07:56 PM
Missing Inaction Missing Inaction is a male United States Missing Inaction is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goron Moron View Post
Welcome to the Innovatives, Brother!
Yes, I'm definitely Innovative.

It's wierd. This thread was confusing until I actually anwered the question it's asking. Now it makes a lot more sense.

I seem to be an Innovative theorist, but I still believe in Absolute Truth.
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Last Edited by Missing Inaction; 01-19-2009 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 08:02 PM
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

And here I thought you would be under your own catagory: "Ollathirian Theorist".
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Last Edited by Viral; 01-19-2009 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 08:05 PM
Missing Inaction Missing Inaction is a male United States Missing Inaction is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

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Originally Posted by Lord Insizor View Post
And here I thought you would be under your own catagory: "Ollathirian Theorist".
I was actually going to do that. After looking back at the description for Innovatives, I realized Innovative was the category for people who could be "own-name-ian theorists."
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  #34 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 11:55 PM
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

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Originally Posted by Lord Insizor View Post
And here I thought you would be under your own catagory: "Ollathirian Theorist".
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  #35 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-19-2009, 11:58 PM
Kife Kife is a male United States Kife is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

You're like my stepfather.

You put this into a really complicated thread. I didn't even get a word from that list. It didn't make any sense. Also, you look like you just needed to be relaxed.
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  #36 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-21-2009, 11:03 AM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollathir View Post
I seem to be an Innovative theorist, but I still believe in Absolute Truth.
Technically, in our own history of Earth, there is no absolute truth because human senses are limitted.

As for you claiming to be innovative, I'd say you were more Non-Traditional because you believe developer intent has changed through evidense by "in-game" and other misc manual texts. You argue against what the developers have said, and belive the games show different from their (former) interpretations.

Innovative is for those that mainly refuse to have alot of solid beliefs, let alone a complete timeline theory they stand by. They do not let other theorists' trends restrict how they decipher things, but try and use those trends to understand a certain way of logic that conflicts with their own. (You for one, strictly stand behind a set of ordeals you see to be "absolute", and that is hardly innovative.)

Anyone can be innovative/open minded; this is True. But its not a sub group, nor a group for those that don't fit into the other groups I have tried to define as evident. Sometimes beginner theorists will start here to establish their thoughts and ideals, then move into one of the other three catagories. But if that person ideals are broken because of what a new game's canon may show, they either become Independent or go back to Innovative (starting from scratch). Although, theorists that have fallen into more than two catagory over time sometimes adopt a indifferent sense that allows them to see Nintendo's objective with storylines; which allows the "player" to draw their own conclusions (sort of like Goron Moron said earlier) not restricted by any trend/s theorists have made to narrow down what is canon.

You may be open minded and see other's points of views, but you cling to a theme and trend of canonical bias's in your reasoning. I think what you feel is developer intent is what the Non-Traditional Theorists type generally describes you as.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kife View Post
You're like my stepfather.

You put this into a really complicated thread. I didn't even get a word from that list. It didn't make any sense. Also, you look like you just needed to be relaxed.
Zelda Theorizing isn't for the faint hearted.

I'm sorry you did not understand the concepts being put forth. Can I do anything to make things less complicated for you?

-------------------

Perhaps my terminologies are too general or need to be better defined and explained. Hmm... I'll get back to redefining them later because their seems to be problems.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-21-2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-21-2009, 03:40 PM
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

Updating the Definitions so they may be clearly understood.


Types of Theorists:

Traditional Zelda Theorists:

Developer's word over their intent has not changed. These theorists generally argue that anything the developers have said is their intent: past, present, and future. Despite plot holes left open in the in-game and other misc. manual text canon, these theorists argue that developers leave things unspecified in order to unrestrict how they make future games. Depending on what an individual is theorizing a relation to be, all storyline elements between games can plausibly correlate to make conclusions. Under this logic, general hypothesis may be made to provide universal explanation/s on why things happen a certain way, and or how they would happen. Traditional Zelda Theorists believe in an overall chronology.

Non-Traditional Zelda Theorists:

Developer’s word over their intent has changed. These theorists generally argue that in-game and other misc. manual text canon contradicts some of the developer's word – providing reason to why they may have changed their intent. Depending on what an individual is theorizing a relation to be, most storyline elements between games can plausibly correlate to make conclusions. Under this logic, general hypothesis may be made to provide universal explanation/s on why things happen a certain way, and or how they would happen. Non-Traditional Zelda Theorists can believe in an overall chronology, or believe certain timeline arks (like the FS series, for example) have been dismissed from relating to other title's storylines.

Independent Zelda Theorists:

Developer's word over their intent hardly means anything anymore, or has become indifferent as the series has progressed. These theorists argue that in-game and other misc. manual text canon is contradictive to developer's intent in many areas – providing reason that they have abandoned fixing things for an overall chronology to be possible. Depending on what an individual is theorizing a relation to be, storyline elements between games - within a timeline ark only - can plausibly correlate to make conclusions. Under this logic, general hypothesis may be made to provide explanation/s on why things happen a certain way, and or how they would happen according to explicit references only. Independent Theorists do not over extend their boundaries of bias’s and rarely let other theorists trends effect their skeptical judgments.

Innovative Zelda Theorists:

These Theorists weigh the checks and balances between the views and trends of what is considered canon by all types of Zelda Theorists. They do not over extend their boundaries of bias’s and rarely let other theorists trends effect their personal judgments. However, these historians may retain there opinions in certain areas (and perhaps even lean more towards certain Zelda Theorist's ideals) but do not let popular opinion impair on their reasoning. Innovative Theorists try to adopt the different logics between all three types of theorists and apply their rhetoric to debate efficiently when the time is appropriate. (Beginner Theorist will adopt this platform first and foremost - usually for a short time to find where their bias falls under more. Senior scholars that have been in more than two of the other catagories of theorists may find themselves returning to this stage to redefine where the series is actually going.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-21-2009 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-21-2009, 08:07 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

My interpretations of the four brands of theorist:

Conservative/Traditional
Any developer statement ever considered to be correct (that is, anything not spoken by Miyamoto, for most theorists) is and always will be correct. Certain placements such as ALttP before LoZ and LA after ALttP are and always will be true, with no room for change. More often than not, the games' poetic descriptions are to be interpreted literally. Any material that contradicts these axioms is non-canon.

Liberal/Non-traditional
Developer statements can be and often are retracted when future titles are made. We can never look to past statements to determine the truth of the series, since the series is dynamic and always changing. More often than not, the games' poetic descriptions are subject to interpretation. Any official Nintendo material related to Zelda may be canon.

Independent
We cannot rely on the developers to determine timeline placements. We must look only to evidence given in the games themselves. The games give us a clear picture of what the timeline looks like.

Innovative
The developers' vision and new games go hand-in-hand, but old stories are always being added onto in new ones. Thus, the timeline is always changing, but always moving forward, never moving back. Adhering to old views is acceptable if those views are relevant today; establishing new views is acceptable if the old views no longer stand.

I'm innovative, obviously:

Things like the Imprisoning War and the Miyamoto timeline, in my opinion, still stand from the moment of their inception and are fundamental backbones of the primary series' chronology (that is, the chronology of Zelda 1-5). Certain more obscure stories such as the AoL backstory, the wars over the Sacred Realm, and the history of the Four Sword have been subject to revision in future games, but retain their initial chronological placement and purpose.

I run the fine line between Traditional and Non-traditional. I incorporate many commonly-dismissed developer statements such as OoT=IW, OoT-LoZ-ALttP, and TWW-2D, but dismiss other traditionally-held theorist community views like ALttP-LoZ and TMC-OoT. I like to stick to the original purpose of a story, such as the Sleeping Zelda's role as founder of the tradition of passing down the name of "Zelda," but realize that the creative vision of future stories has blended the past with new ideas founded in the present, such as the naming tradition's role in TWW and relationship to the union of the Triforce in the hands of Daphnes.
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Last Edited by LegendofLex; 01-21-2009 at 08:20 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-24-2009, 11:38 AM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

That's very well put, and a bit more narrowed down in what I was trying to get across with my catagories Lex. I run that very same thin line you do, unfortunatly.

Thanks for your help.

Although we still have the issue of people considering NoJ fan translated canon being of greater value than NoA's work. I am not sure if this trend is the general case or should even be considered in branching a sub catagory for each of the four original catagories.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMissingLink
You can have a timeline, or you can have canon, but not both . If one strictly follows the strictest form of canon, the timeline is ultimately destroyed. On the other hand, if one strives to create the most coherent timeline, the canon must be broken by corollary. It is the unfortunate world in which Nintendo has placed us, and now it is up to decide which road we shall follow: the road of truth where nothing can be created, or the road of imagination where nothing can be destroyed.
[Bomber's Notebook][The History of the UWM][Exposing the Sheikah]
[Zelda Historians]
Last Edited by LOZ Historian; 01-24-2009 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 01-24-2009, 03:07 PM
Mr_Zora_Decu Mr_Zora_Decu is offline
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Re: History VS. History: What Kind of Theorist Am I?

I guess im a liberal/non-traditional "theorist".

As i see it, the game is the "only solid" proof we have. Like instead of bending the games, the producers keep changing their statements to "keep the series possible". Such as how out of nowhere, WW introduced the split-timeline, and how originaly we were told there was no timeline, and then Eiji told us there was and he was going to try and link them together. As well i HIGHLY believe that NOJ > NOA text. I find it to be similar to shakespeare, in english (the language were it was written) it makes WAY MORE sence than the other translations i've read (spanish).
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