Ganon can't Soul Split

No offense SevenYears, but it's blatantly obvious that Agahnim is a soul split of Ganon. His name even sounds similar to Ganon.

Lex, your picture of the PoP statue doesn't work. Here's a Youtube link:

YouTube - Zelda: A Link to the Past - Part 12

If you look closely, you can see that it is clearly Agahnim. The statues even have the sleeves on his robes.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

Bunshin has more than one meaning. Read the thread.

There is no English word for "bunshin," since bunshin is a specific term in Japanese mythology; you have shown that "other self" and "alter-ego" can have different meanings but the meaning of "bunshin" goes beyond the literal translation.

The term is also used to refer to--get this--a type of data replication. Replication being the key word, as that's what we see in the Zelda series.

This is the meaning of the word, and the only applicable meaning of the word in this case.

No offense SevenYears, but it's blatantly obvious that Agahnim is a soul split of Ganon. His name even sounds similar to Ganon

Not to me anymore, considering the evidence. The name being the same can be a coincidence.

I forgot to mention the other meaning posted. Agahnim can't be Ganon's clone. They don't even look alike, nor do they showcase the same powers.

There is no English word for "bunshin," since bunshin is a specific term in Japanese mythology; you have shown that "other self" and "alter-ego" can have different meanings but the meaning of "bunshin" goes beyond the literal translation.

If it was a specific term, why is the translation vague as stated by the translator?

The term is also used to refer to--get this--a type of data replication. Replication being the key word, as that's what we see in the Zelda series.

Key word being also. Besides, in what way are Ganon and Agahnim clones of each other?

The translator said it was vague because it can hardly be translated in english, but it means something like clone, copy or alter-ego depending on the situation. Just try to give other meanings to this word...

And your idea of Ganon going exactly where Aganim is just to see if he is still breathing is fanfic. He obvously escapes from Aganim's corpse (well, part o his soul). But for tWW, you are right, nothing proves he escapes that way, but its a pretty smart assumption that he did.

And your idea of Ganon going exactly where Aganim is just to see if he is still breathing is fanfic. He obvously escapes from Aganim's corpse (well, part o his soul).

No it isn't. Ganon wanted Agahnim to destroy Link. Ganon never thought Link would give him trouble and beat Agahnim twice. Ganon needed Agahnim to break the seal, and it is obvious Agahnim showed up to take out Link. If Agahnim defeated Link, Ganon would be able to enter the LW (in time). That makes Agahnim pretty important. There was no reason for Ganon to reveal himself during that battle, especially considering he thought Agahnim would beat him and the fact that Agahnim split his soul. With Agahnim gone (in addition to the bosses of the Dark World), there is no one left to stop Link. With Agahnim being important, there is nothing wrong with the idea that Ganon went to him as soon as he was spinning/dying. He just lost his last chance to stop Link, now he has to take care of him himself. I can say that bolded part in your post is fanfic.

Originally Posted by SevenYears

If it was a specific term, why is the translation vague as stated by the translator?

Just because a translator can translate Japanese does not mean he has an extensive knowledge of Japanese culture.

Key word being also. Besides, in what way are Ganon and Agahnim clones of each other?

Data processing jargon has adapted the Japanese term to refer to data as well, "also" just means that it refers to data processing replications as well as a literal spirit replication.

Ganon split his soul, creating a "soul clone" that possessed/became Agahnim, just as Ciela split her soul, creating a "soul clone" that left her seal.

I'd say this is a clear case of ocams razor, the concept that Ganondorf was hiding and watching the whole fight and rushing to Aghanims side at his death makes no sense. If Aghahnim was still an important part of his plot (which he btw is not anymore, he served his purpose allready) Ganon would have intervened sooner. Or would have attacked Link together with Agahnim or attacked Link out of his hiding.
Ganon's image funking rises from Aghanims dead body/clothes (whatever you prefere) and turns into a bat.
As for the whole entering the dark world thing...Entering the darkworld is not a that big deal (we see many that managed) >_>. It's getting out what is hard. So it makes no sense that Agahnim would be worshipped because he entered the dark world.

Indeed, though I do seem to argue a lot with Pincove and the like, I do have to agree that Ganon literally comes out of Agahnim's dead body. You can't deny it, and as it has been mentioned, if he was invisible, he would have just killed Link anyway whil Agahnim was trying to kill him.
But, the statues are definitly of Agahnim. I don't know why, but they are.

It is clear that Ganon had soul split to create or posses Agahnim, but, how could a mere magician create portals to the Sacred Realm/ Dark World, when it takes 7 Sages to close them, and years of searching for natural gates in the first place?

SevenYears, stop avoiding the main question. What do you believe bunshin means if it's neither a soul-split nor a possession?

Also, you say that Ganon "appears" when Aganhim dies? That it's not Ganon's soul exiting Aganhim's body, but just Ganon appearing?

Why in the world would he randomly appear, and how in the world could he? Time and time again we're told in the game that you have to go kill Ganon before he enters the Light World, or else it'll be too late. So if he's already in the Light World, why the hell would he go back into the Dark World where he can be easily cornered??

Bunshin=clone/soul-split/copy
You say Aganhim is none of those things. Explain, and don't just say "he's not and AST isn't canon" explain what WHY and HOW in your theory Aganhim is not exactly what the game calls him.

The copies of Agahnim and the OoT Poe Sister don't have the influence to affect the world with their own bodies only. The agahnim copy needs to throw an energy ball to hurt Link. When Link reflects an energy ball at an agahnim, it goes right through him. When Link shoots a Poe copy, it disappears, only the real Poe harms Link. The poe copies follow one pattern of movement. (ciela: amnesia, distant travel, her copy's body is touchable, but she is a different bunshin, bunshin has many meanings). The Ganon we see in his tower is not a soul split/copy. He turns into a bat, and flies down the pyramid by breaking the top of it, allowing him to get through. How would a Ganon copy even creep through the gate between worlds? Nothing has been opened yet in the Dark World that allows a DW resident to enter the LW until Agahnim comes along. OoT Bongo Bongo, who is a shadow spirit that can turn invisible, proves that a spirit can only escape a seal by physically breaking it. A copy is a spirit and a soul split is a spirit. Ganon and the original Agahnim aren't spirits.

Ganon wanted to rule the world. Light World is inclusive. Otherwise, why bother trying to return to the Light World if the Dark World is already his? He can stay in the Dark World and rule. The triforce states that Ganon wants to return to the Light World and conquer it to fulfill his wish. The wish was not completely granted.

He wished for the conquest of both worlds. This wish changed the SR. He needed to personally build his power to conquer the Light World. He builds his power in the Dark World so that he can be able to conquer it right after he enters the Light World. Better safe than sorry, that's the reason he didn't go back to the Light World right after the wish was granted. He wasn't strong enough, and what safer/sensible/better place to build his power than in the realm that was changed to be under his jurisdiction. This is separate from escaping the seal. He has to build his power because he is not powerful enough to take over the Light World at the time that he made his wish. The seal was made after the wish was granted.

Here is the order of the events in ALTTP. Ganon made a wish to rule the world, became powerful, but not enough to conquer the light world, evil flowed from the realm and he started building his power, the seal was made, he completed his power, he couldn't enter the LW, he captured the maidens, tried to get through, then Link first entered the DW. He had to build his power to conquer the Light World. Nothing says he had to build his power to break the seal, which he can't do by himself anyway.

Since Ganon can't soul split, now let's think about the possibility that he can possess someone. Agahnim has gone to the DW before he opened the seal with Zelda's help, as evidenced by the Agahnim statues in the DW and the fact that he is capable of this since he sends maidens to the DW and he brought Link with him as he was teleporting to the DW. Ganon's power is already built before the maidens were sent to the DW. Agahnim already went to the DW before he sacrificed the first maiden, that's how he knew he could send them to the DW in the first place. If Ganon had the power to possess Agahnim, he would have done so way before Link first started his LW quest. Portals/dimension travels are unique in this game. A tile in the LW can take a person to the DW, but once that person enters the DW, he can't go back because there is no tile in the DW. Likewise, Agahnim can send maidens, Link, and himself to the DW, but he can't bring Ganon or anyone else back with him to the LW. Without the aid of the Magic Mirror, Agahnim is the only one who can travel back and forth through dimensions.

Now it has just been shown that ALTTP Ganon can't soul split or possess someone. Agahnim breaks the seal in order to allow Ganon to enter the LW, because Ganon can't get back to the LW with his own power.

With that in mind,

If Aghahnim was still an important part of his plot (which he btw is not anymore, he served his purpose allready) Ganon would have intervened sooner.

He didn't serve his purpose already, why is he the boss of Ganon's Tower and Ganon isn't? Why do the maidens speak of Agahnim and Ganon as though they are separate people? Why else were statues of Agahnim made in the DW? Making 2 copies would give anyone trouble, Ganon has continued to underestimate Link. A maiden might have even said that as well.

Still not getting what you're saying...
So he's not a soul-split, he's not a possession...but he's still a bunshin in the same fashion as the Poe sisters? Then why doesn't he look anything like Ganon?

How is he in any way a bunshin by your theory?

Originally Posted by SevenYears

He didn't serve his purpose already, why is he the boss of Ganon's Tower and Ganon isn't? Why do the maidens speak of Agahnim and Ganon as though they are separate people? Why else were statues of Agahnim made in the DW? Making 2 copies would give anyone trouble, Ganon has continued to underestimate Link. A maiden might have even said that as well.

I can only say that it is never shown or implied that Aghanim is able to switch between the dimensions, other then maybe the statues at the pyramid. And those can have different reasons. Entering the darkworld is not hard, there are several portals. Aghanim just can swap to the darkworld without those portals, never is it once said that he can get back out.
Remember what Aghanims purpose was if he really is not Ganon's bunshin / possesed yb Ganon. If he was just a henchemen his purpose was to break the seal by sending the maidens into the dark world. He did that and at that point he has basicly done what he was supposed to do. Nowhere is it once implied that Ganon still needs him to enter the light world.

Actually this raises a point I cant remember clearly: why did Ganon not enter the light world after the seal was broken? Is it told in the game or up for speculation?

And I the thing that comes out of Aghanim is clearly still physical since it breaks the pyramid, just like cielas bunshin.

^
When the Seal was "broken", it only opened up one exit point [Hyrule Castle].
Ganon was trying to open up more/bigger holes before he entered and attempted to conquer the Light World.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

^
When the Seal was "broken", it only opened up one exit point [Hyrule Castle].
Ganon was trying to open up more/bigger holes before he entered and attempted to conquer the Light World.

Is that what the game tells us or what makes the most sense?

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Is that what the game tells us or what makes the most sense?

Agahnim and Sahasrahla say that the seal has ultimately been broken. Ganon is just biding his time and trying to gather even more power so that he can open the way even further. He's already in control of Hyrule thanks to Agahnim, so he's not in a rush.

@bitterlime
Not in those exact words, but something to that effect. I'm having a hard time finding the quote right now.

Here's a Youtube video with Agahnim's and Sahasrahla's quotes. The guy speeds through the end, so you'll have to stop it to read what Sahasrahla's saying:

YouTube - A Link to the Past - Hyrule Castle, Agahnim

Well, the fact remains from TP that Ganondorf can soul split, as he rests his power withing Zant, whilst forming a new body (which is never really explained. He appeared in the TR as a big fiery head thing, so where did his body go? And how did he get it back? Or is this something to do with the TR's effect on people with the Triforce)
Anway, he put some of his soul into Zant, enabling Zant to keep coming back as long as Ganondorf was a live.
So, the Ganon we see leaving the body of Agahnim is like the last of his spirit leaving Agahnim and rejoining with the whole Ganon spirit.

In ALTTP, sending the maidens to the DW involves magic, likewise sending Agahnim's self to the DW requires magic. How can Ganon have communicated with him from the DW if the Sages had sealed all gates the realm? He wouldn't need to physically see him if part of Ganon's soul was within Agahnim (or actually was Agahnim).

Just thought of something:

According to Seven years, Ganon was just checking to see if Aganim was dead. If that's the case, then where is the giant hole in the Pyramid of power that Ganon was residing in the whole time?

Then why doesn't he look anything like Ganon?

How is he in any way a bunshin by your theory?

Exactly. There are variations of a bunshin. Agahnim is Ganon's alterego/other self (check above for my definition). He isn't a ciela bunshin, nor is he a poe bunshin.

Aghanim just can swap to the darkworld without those portals, never is it once said that he can get back out.

The fact that he sends maidens to the DW while the seal exists and there are Agahnim statues indicating he has been in the DW prove he can travel from the DW to the LW.

And those can have different reasons.

Name them. I guarantee you the LW tiles that take people to the DW isn't a reason, since the pyramid is not reachable from their DW entries. Link is the only one that has the Hammer, Titan's Mitt, etc. Not every monster in the DW was once a LW resident. Who were the Cyclops, piranna dude, spear bears from the LW? No one. The ending credits prove this. Some monsters were created in the DW. The only LW tile that a few people even head to is the one on Death Mountain. The stone that blocks Link's path to the mountain's entrance was placed after there were already people up there (old man, the person who becomes a ball and something else) so that no more people would get lost.

Nowhere is it once implied that Ganon still needs him to enter the light world.

I never said that.

Actually this raises a point I cant remember clearly: why did Ganon not enter the light world after the seal was broken? Is it told in the game or up for speculation?

The seal broke, but it didn't fully open yet. Ganon is a fat ass.

And I the thing that comes out of Aghanim is clearly still physical since it breaks the pyramid, just like cielas bunshin.

Some bunshins are physical, and some aren't. Agahnim's copies aren't, the Poe's bunshins aren't, Ciela's is.

According to Seven years, Ganon was just checking to see if Aganim was dead. If that's the case, then where is the giant hole in the Pyramid of power that Ganon was residing in the whole time?

Ganon wasn't residing in the pyramid the entire time, he was in his own tower, waiting for the seal to fully open. He was in his tower because it is the safest most heavily defended place in the DW. There is a hole on the side of the pyramid. In the ganon fight, Link can fall down from there and exit the pyramid. That's probably why the hole in the side exists in the first place. This is the fat fairy speaking:

My being just a wee bit chubby is because of Ganon's magical power, so be sure to do away with him.