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  #41 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 02:01 AM
theunabletable theunabletable is a male United States theunabletable is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Because Ganon was chosen by the Goddess' to have the ToP. Now explain why Ganon does not recognize the MS when in the AT it is what is used to seal Ganon? Actually he says something like "A good looking blade. Nothing more.".
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  #42 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 02:09 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Hah! I knew I'd pull a good discussion out of you, no need to eat the lemons!

*does a stupid dance*

My solution to that is:

In OoT, AT Zelda with Ocarina in hand and Link with Mastersword in hand can only send Link back to the first time the master sword was used. This created a rift in time, and this was the ONLY functionality of these two artifacts, regardless of the wielder.

>>

Actually I think I'm the only one who's come up with that.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:11 AM
rhakiath rhakiath is a male United States rhakiath is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

^lexxi
-thats a really lame explanation, the divine prank thing is very vague and makes little sense based on what we've seen
-child link is not worthy to hold his triforce piece, hence the 7 year lapse. also if he brought it back, why then does the ToC exist in TWW? if there are 2 triforces, then why only 1 link?
-if they had him executed before he could do anything, how does he manage to slip into the ToT and touch the triforce?

edit: i'm bored, we might as well debate over the sequence of the split now that I've got you all here...
Last Edited by rhakiath; 12-10-2008 at 02:13 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:14 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

I don't agree with either of the first two explanations.

As for your disagreement with the last one, they never said they executed him before he did anything; that would be tremendously unjust and is actually contrary to what they do say, which is that they confronted him and through his overconfidence due to the tremendous power he wielded managed to catch him off-guard and exploit a weakness.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:17 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

So... my logical assumption states that when Link came back, Ganon was already in the sacred realm. When Link touches the master sword Ganondorf's there waiting and goes in immediately, and right after that, Link and Zelda go and tell the King.

That the sages in TP don't know this means that they were never woken/captured in the first place because they weren't the same sages from OoT (I mean duh, they don't even look the same)

It doesn't really matter anyway, because the first thing that Zelda and Link do is not prevent Ganon from entering the Sacred Realm, it's to go to the King.

That means me and Lex's theories are the same.
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  #46 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 02:18 AM
LOZ Historian LOZ Historian is a male LOZ Historian is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by quick_silver20 View Post
I can sympathize with you as well as LoZ, I was a splittist WAY back when putting a splittist theory on the ZU forums attracted just as much ridicule.

I HOPE this place is better because of ALL our work, former Linearists most essentially...
This whole topic is ironic for me. I thought I was the last true Linearist at heart... I'm afraid if I say any more, I'm going to blow up into some classical rant which I promised myself I wouldn't... "sigh"

You know my personal feelings on the matter and I personally respect you now after hearing the whole story behind the scenes. So, I also hope with you that things get better... [quietly leaves topic]

I can't debate or comment on this concept anymore...

And I won't battle a current Linearist any more than I have.
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  #47 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 02:32 AM
rhakiath rhakiath is a male United States rhakiath is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

^that's what i should've done...

anyway, the sages thing fits, but as for QX, if ganondorf got the triforce when link returned, then how does the king do anything about it? ganondorf is powerful enough without the triforce to pwn link, so child link with no master sword and no TOC, since he cant use them as a child, would be in very deep trouble. the soldiers and king can't do much, they were wiped out in the future; in fact there is the dying guard in castle town who proves the guards can't stand up to him even without the ToP.

I think that ganondorf had no idea he posessed the triforce until his execution. he would obviously be aware of walking in and getting it, but if he got it through the fragmentation of its pieces, it would explain since he didn't know about that.

ganondorf had already done enough by the time link sees zelda, between threatening the gorons, killing the deku tree, and doing something to JJ. link knows about all this and so tells zelda, giving her the right to have him imprisoned.

so the only possibility is the divine prank thing, that he just got it so Aunoma could make a game.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:38 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

As I already stated, the sages claim that whatever effort succeeded in capturing Ganon succeeded under the following circumstances:

-Because of Ganon's extreme overconfidence (which existed in OoT but would have increased if he had taken the Triforce of Power)
-Because they were able to "catch him off-guard" and exploit a weakness (the antithesis to what happened in Adult OoT, where Ganondorf was the one who caught Hyrule off-guard)
-Despite the fact that he possessed immense power (most likely referring to the Triforce of Power)-- the sages even suggest that his overconfidence was due to the immense amount of power he possessed
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:40 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

The King summons the Sages. Sages that Ganondorf in the AT took down one by one while they were unaware of his intent. All together the sage's power was enough to stop him, but only because he was unaware of the nature of his power, or of the nature of the triforce splitting. This is specifically illustrated when Ganondorf 'discovers' he had the triforce of Power, and also illustrates that Ganodorf thought he was 'got' till he noticed his power.

Personally, I think it fits nicely together.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:46 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

quick_silver, as a matter of comparison, Ganondorf thought he was "got" when Link and Zelda left him for dead at the top of Ganon's Tower so I wouldn't say the fact that he thought he was about to die in TP necessarily suggests he didn't know he had the Triforce-- rather that he expected not to survive.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:48 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Very true, it is a good possibility. That a game or developer quote doesn't state this specifically makes it all speculation, but this particular speculation doesn't leave a big enough hole to make Aonuma's timeline placement incorrect. I think it's a good thing that Aonuma didn't just spell it all out.

So I just figured out the formula mods use for determining what clan people go into!

Farore people are most dedicated to Zelda, but may not have an opinion in other areas of ZU
Nayru folks are 'squids' as they say and will be theorists and also people in the 'real world' and community threads talking about death and taxes and what not
Din peeps are most active in the BA, and have the most creative written answers to the questions posted.

/spammy spam spam lol.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:53 AM
rhakiath rhakiath is a male United States rhakiath is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

was this before or after they stuck a sword into his chest? he must have had the ToP either way, the question is how and also when he realizes it.

I still think that ganondorf couldn't have entered the SR after link returns, if the ending is any indication, zelda is still in the courtyard. link is far enough back in time to precede his original DOT opening. although the DoT is open since link returns to the P.oT, the master sword is in place to lock the SR. also if TP ganondorf doesn't recognize the MS, then he never even visited the ToT at this point when it was open.

I am going to bed for now, so everyone watch the ending and TP execution as I just did to refresh our memories.
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  #53 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 03:03 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

For the sake of arguing for the sake of arguing, where does Zelda go when she's not in that courtyard? For all we know this area could be adjascent to her bedchamber.

To assume that Link is there just after 'Link is there' because 'that's the last time we saw Zelda right there' is just silly.

*throws a red herring at you, and doesn't feel bad about it.*
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:12 AM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

In OoT, when the Sages are awakened, have a seventh member, two pieces of the Triforce, the Master Sword, the Light Arrows, the legendary Hero of Time, and a potential element of surprise, they doubt that they can kill or technically beat Ganondorf. The plan is for Link to weaken Ganondorf enough so that he may be sealed. The Sages don't expect Link to win.

If they don't think that they can actually take down Ganondorf with all of that, I certainly don't see why they'd think they'd win when they lacked all of that against a Ganondorf who knew that he had the ToP. Heck, in OoT Ganondorf was basically invincible. The Sages wouldn't have stood a chance.

Also, in the Japanese translations of OoT's ending, Zelda specifically states that getting Link involved in her plans was a mistake, and it was that mistake in particular that she was going to correct. With this (and everything else) in mind, it's incredibly likely that Zelda sent Link back to a point before he was involved in her plans.

Also, as a sidenote, if Ganondorf, even after appearing to be dead for three minutes, couldn't be dealt a TP scar (or something similar to it) from the Hero of Time with the Light Arrows, Master Sword, Triforce of Courage, and the power of the Sages within him, why would some random blade of the Sages give him a deus ex machina weakness? If the Master Sword couldn't do it when he was using the ToP, why would that nameless sword do something?

Later.
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Man, I've disproved this point every time I've dropped by the old folk's home.

I... I'm not allowed there any more.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:36 AM
quick silver quick silver is a male United States quick silver is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Quote:
In OoT, when the Sages are awakened, have a seventh member, two pieces of the Triforce, the Master Sword, the Light Arrows, the legendary Hero of Time, and a potential element of surprise, they doubt that they can kill or technically beat Ganondorf. The plan is for Link to weaken Ganondorf enough so that he may be sealed. The Sages don't expect Link to win.
Quote:
If they don't think that they can actually take down Ganondorf with all of that, I certainly don't see why they'd think they'd win when they lacked all of that against a Ganondorf who knew that he had the ToP. Heck, in OoT Ganondorf was basically invincible. The Sages wouldn't have stood a chance.
Assuming they've never been beaten by Ganondorf and have no idea of his ability, and that he doesn't have seven years to figure out his power for the first time. Considering all of that, they are ignorant to Ganon's ability and STILL manage to look scared when they are trying to execute him and fail. Go figure there. Aonuma made no blunder.

You're not complaining about the Split timeline itself, you're compaining about Twilight Princess, the game itself.

Quote:
Also, in the Japanese translations of OoT's ending, Zelda specifically states that getting Link involved in her plans was a mistake, and it was that mistake in particular that she was going to correct. With this (and everything else) in mind, it's incredibly likely that Zelda sent Link back to a point before he was involved in her plans.
Assuming she even had the ability to do so. Assuming that young Zelda would even be privy to future Zelda's plans. Assuming that future Zelda could have made an educated guess about the 'future actions of young Zelda from the past' and miscalculated. Assuming you know Zelda's motives better than Lex, or even the other way around. More specifically, assuming you know Zelda's motives better than Aonuma. Again, no blunder there.

Quote:
Also, as a sidenote, if Ganondorf, even after appearing to be dead for three minutes, couldn't be dealt a TP scar (or something similar to it) from the Hero of Time with the Light Arrows, Master Sword, Triforce of Courage, and the power of the Sages within him, why would some random blade of the Sages give him a deus ex machina weakness? If the Master Sword couldn't do it when he was using the ToP, why would that nameless sword do something?
For all we know, this sword was better than the MS as it was obviously made for nearly the same purpose, by the sages, and was made AFTER the MS so maybe they got it right that time. The only real differences between the blades (being that they were both sage made) is that this new sword was made specifically for execution, SPECIFICALLY I might add, it was made to kill Ganon, and just maybe they did better at that, knowing the enemy they were facing in physical form, and had time to fashion this blade for just such a purpose, knowing that an attempt to kill any such being with a lesser weapon would fail.

The Master Sword on the other hand was fashioned not to kill Ganon, but to be a key to the sacred realm, and its only advantage to the other sword was being endowed with special 'kick evil's ass powers,' not 'kick Ganon's ass' powers. That this new blade not be fashioned as a blade that no evil could touch, then, is a misfortunate lack of forsight for the sages and nothing more.

Contrarywise, why would OoT Ganon be in the act of being sealed away and, 'oh by the way he got a big boo boo' to boot? As I've illustrated it would be completley silly and to do so would draw away from the storyline. We KNOW the MS injured him/drew out his power. That this other sword left a visible wound in Ganon but couldn't singularly defeat him really isn't that different.

Also consider that the execution sequence seemed to take place before the Ganon's triforce power manifested, that he is surprized that he lived really isn't debatable. If the wound was made before he was fully 'invinsible' and never healed it would forever be a chink in Ganon's armor that would utimately lead to his demise, whereas without that sword, Ganon might not have been defeatable.

It is the Motif that is the Zelda series where Link learns usefull information that helps him throughout his quest, and also helps him in his last fight that is always blue and true. That you happen to 'think this is lame' that Ganon's wound is essential info to defeating Ganon doesn't disprove the split timeline one iota, but only proves that you 'think TP is lame.'

*AG tries to throw a wrench at the waterworks and completely misses*
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  #56 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 06:12 AM
Casual Matt Casual Matt is a male Canada Casual Matt is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron View Post
Capcom actually has no ownership of any of these titles and wasn't even responsible for Four Swords Adventures anyway as it was developed in-house by Nintendo EAD.
That, my friend, is the proof that Capcom / Flagship's titles are canonical. Four Swords Adventures was made by Nintendo as a sequel to Four Swords, and had strong connections to A Link to the Past.

FSA has timeline connections to ALttP. TMC has connections to FSA. The Oracles have connections to TMC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhakiath View Post
:sigh:...
how does ganondorf get the triforce in the child timeline? if link went back to where zelda was in the courtyard, then the triforce was never touched. ganondorf could not get a piece in TP unless someone splits it.
A common theory is this, already mentioned by Lex. At the end of Ocarina of Time, Link traveled back in time to before he met Zelda. This we see from the ending after the credits and flashbacks in Majora's Mask support this.

When Link went back, he left the Triforce of Courage behind in the Adult Timeline. This is stated in The Wind Waker.

But when Link got to the past, the Child Timeline, the Triforce of Courage was drawn to him. The evidence for this is that Link still had the Triforce mark on the back of his hand at the very end of the game, in the Child Timeline's beginning.

The fact that Link gained the Triforce of Courage is what caused the Divine Prank, and the other two pieces to go to those chosen by destiny; Zelda and Ganon.

Please note that the only theoretical part of this theory is the last statement. The statements leading up to it are heavily evidenced or proven in game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhakiath View Post
as for the deaths of ganondorf, that never stopped him; he is enough games already, by my count 4, that resurrection is necessary. there are several links as well, by my count at least 4. the master sword appears 4 times as well. these are Oot, TP, TWW, and ALttP. in all 4 games the enemy is specifically ganondorf, who gets the triforce of power, and is defeated by a master sword wielding link. the other games feature only link(MM, PH, LA.)

the linear timeline is pretty, and does not lose track of the triforce during the Oot split. TP made more questions than answers.
Are you trying to argue that Twilight Princess is between Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker? I'm actually not sure, but if you are, I have some questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhakiath View Post
I think that ganondorf had no idea he posessed the triforce until his execution. he would obviously be aware of walking in and getting it, but if he got it through the fragmentation of its pieces, it would explain since he didn't know about that.
I agree.
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Last Edited by Casual Matt; 12-10-2008 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 08:43 AM
rhakiath rhakiath is a male United States rhakiath is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

right then, I think that the sage's sword was not particularly powerful considering that ganondorf can wield it. He gained the triforce through the separation of the three pieces, and due to his ignorance of that possibility, he lost to the sages. he was brought to the AG and executed, but the ToP won't let him die and partially heals his wound. he then proceeds to pwn the sage of water before being thrown into a conveniently located portal.

before link returns, the triforce leaves him and is lost for now, possibly split into 8 pieces at this time. the problem I have is when he does return, that he seems to regain the triforce accidentaly. link is not stupid enough to try again, knowing that it will split and imprison him in time. (boy, would that piss zelda off) when he regains the triforce, it splits again and goes off to ganondorf and zelda. none of them should know about this happening, hence it is called a divine prank. link then goes off and does his thing.

But, it is not explained how link got the triforce piece, and how he can wield it as a child when he could not before (and was therefore locked in the SR for 7 years). so everything works out except that.

One of the three destined holders must have touched it, but none of them could. Link had seen what would happen, he won't try again.
zelda heard from link, and knows the triforce will split if touched by either her or link. she is also not ready to awaken as a sage yet, so she is unworthy of her piece.

as for ganondorf, he could not enter the SR himself, unless the master sword were disturbed again. also the sages are not yet awakened, and without the master sword wielded by link even all 7 of them fail to kill ganondorf. capture him, maybe, but only because he doesn't know about the ToP. If he had used it, it might have been a problem.

one does not simply walk into the sacred realm...
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:00 AM
Ceallach Ceallach is a male United States Ceallach is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

The Triforce doesn't necessarily have to split if someone touches it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheik
If you would seek the sacred triangle, listen well...
The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that
reflects what is in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will
become a paradise.
The Triforce...the sacred triangle...
it is a balance that weighs the three forces:
Power, Wisdom and Courage.
If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in
balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all.

But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into
three parts:
Power, Wisdom and Courage.
Only one part will remain for the one who touched the Triforce...the part
representing the force that one most believes in.
If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts.
Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the
Triforce mark on the backs of their hands.
If Link were to touch the Triforce, I don't think it would split. I think Link has a balance of power, wisdom, and courage.

He's obviously courageous-- that goes without explanation.
He's definitely powerful-- he's deafeated countless enemies, bosses, etc.
He's certainly wise-- he's gone through plenty of the puzzle-infested dungeons/temples, and solved a lot of problems (MM's Bomber's Notebook, for example).

If Link touched the Triforce unhindered, I think he would receive the True Force.

That's just speculation of course, I can't say for sure.
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Timeline:
........../TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
...OoT
..........\MM-TP
Last Edited by Ceallach; 12-10-2008 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 12-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Erimgard Erimgard is a male Mexico Erimgard is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

I shall let this thread stay open because it has now...somehow...spawned intelligent discussion. A few things though:

To the OP: You'll have very little luck getting information on how to contstruct a linear timeline here...I don't know of any regular, active member who still follows one.

To rhakiath: Stop accusing people of ridiculing and flaming you, everyone in this thread has been incredibly patient and cordial with you. Debating is not flaming. This forum is specifically for debating theories, so you can't expect everyone to agree with you all the time. S

econdly, as you are neither an authority figure nor the creator of this thread, you have no say in whether it gets closed or stays open
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:40 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Attention all Linearists!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhakiath View Post
I still think that ganondorf couldn't have entered the SR after link returns, if the ending is any indication, zelda is still in the courtyard. link is far enough back in time to precede his original DOT opening. although the DoT is open since link returns to the P.oT, the master sword is in place to lock the SR. also if TP ganondorf doesn't recognize the MS, then he never even visited the ToT at this point when it was open.
IMO:

1) The scene showing Link's return to the past must at least happen after the Door of Time has been opened, since the Door of Time is open when he arrives in the past and part of Zelda's instructions to him when she sends him back is to close the Door of Time to cut off the road between times. If the Master Sword was never drawn and the Door of Time never opened, the road between times was never opened, and thus Link has no need to close it.

2) The Master Sword is in place because Zelda sent Link back in time to put it back in place. We see the entrance to the Sacred Realm closing when the camera returns to him.

3) TP Ganondorf never says anything about the Master Sword. He only talks about the Sages' sword.
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