Analysis of Ganon (2nd edition)

Original intent=/=current situation though.
Lex tells me that the term "magic mirror" appears in the removed text from the game...likely replaced by the Dark Mirror in my mind.

And we all know what implications there are in the fact that references to "me and the other six sages". However, do you consider FSA the Seal War? No, you don't. Original intent was for it to be the Seal War, but it no longer is. Original intent was very likely for the FSA Dark World to be the corrupted Sacred Realm, but I believe it no longer is.

Why don't people turn into a physical manifestation of the good or evil in their hearts when the enter?
Why do moon pearls create portals, instead of there being only one moon pearl that acts as a protection against transformation?
Where the "one-way" portals from aLttP?
Why can Link enter and exit the Dark World at will without the magic mirror?
Why does no one in the game ever mention the Sacred Realm, whilst aLttP states clearly on numerous occasions that you're in the corrupted Sacred Realm?
Why does one of the Maidens in aLttP tell you that Ganon rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost for a long time if its location is obviously known about in FSA?

Instead of quoting everything Ollathir. It isn't fanfiction. Those were minor assumptions based on what we know.

The curtain and the TC have the same effects on people. Disregardining how someone enters, they have identical effects.

Now, the TC in TP was a combonation of Zant's magic and Ganondorf's power. Now, ganondorf in FSA doesn't know any twili magic or anything (as he was never sealed there) That accounts for a few minor differences. That isn't fanfiction. It is a logically assumption.

I proposed the idea of the moon gates offering protection because when Link activates one with a moon pearl he is able to travel freely between the worlds while others can not. They are stuck there until Link destroys the barriers, which is the source of the veil's power.

I don't understand why you thought the part of the barriers being a close by power source was funny, as it the veil vanishes when they are destroyed.

@Mr. Modly Man
I just don't see reason for the original intent to have changed. There are minor differences between the DW and the place in FSA, but fundamentally they're the same: reflections of Hyrule. The TC is vastly different from the world accessed by the moon gates. The TC is a condition, and the moon gates do not turn that condition on or off or however you imagine they would work. The moon gates lead to an alternate dimension which mirrors Hyrule. The fact is, even though the moon gate world is different from the DW, it's closer to the DW than it is to the TR.

@Skylark
I've discovered that the curtain and the moon gate world do not have the same affects on people. People do not turn into spirits when they are in the moon gate world. The only person we see as a spirit there is the old man, and he is a spirit because he has died. Throughout the game, he tells you he regrets having done something. If you do what he did, you die. So he's dead, and that's why he's a spirit. Other than that, everyone in the moon gate world maintains their original form. For example, all the people there in the village of the Blue Maiden are not spirits. So the affects are not the same.

They don't have the same affect on people, and they don't even have the same nature. One is a condition on the land, like the clouds, and the other is an alternate universe. You really have no evidence that they're the same thing or related, and it doesn't work better in any way if they are.

The barriers are what keep the darkness covering the land intact. The moon gate world has nothing to do with those barriers. When one of the barriers is destroyed, the clouds over the next level dissipate. Therefore, that is what the barriers are for.

I'm sorry I called all that fanfiction, but even if you choose to make that assumption, it still doesn't work better than the moon gate world being the DW. I've explained the fundamental difference between the moon gate world and the TC again and again, and haven't gotten a straight rebuttle once.

Based on what? The affects of the MGW on people? Turning them into spirits? That's not even accurate. The only spirit I recall is the old man.

Levle... 6? It's in the village of the blue maiden.

I'm lost. It sounds like you're contradicting yourself over and over again. The mirror is the way to get to the TR. Why would it cause any darkness, especially when it isn't even there? Why would Ganon stealing it cause any darkness?

The mirror is the way to get to the TR. The Moongates are the way to get into the MGW because you don't have the ToC. Get it?

There's the problem of it not being a condition on the land, but another dimension. Too big to ignore

As I've tried to explain about a thousand times, now. If the MGW is the TC, the reasn you need the MPs to get in is because you don't have the ToC or the co-operation of the/a Twili.

Which isn't even in the forest.

Ahem...

-The TM is being protected etc
-Ganon marches in
-Ganon takes the TM, causing darkness to gush out of it
-Ganon leaves with the mirror but the Darkness stays behind

I asume that you're fine with this as you said earlier in your post?

More fanfiction.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

@Mr. Modly Man
I just don't see reason for the original intent to have changed. There are minor differences between the DW and the place in FSA, but fundamentally they're the same: reflections of Hyrule. The TC is vastly different from the world accessed by the moon gates. The TC is a condition, and the moon gates do not turn that condition on or off or however you imagine they would work. The moon gates lead to an alternate dimension which mirrors Hyrule. The fact is, even though the moon gate world is different from the DW, it's closer to the DW than it is to the TR.

Who the **** is Mr. Moldy man?

People do not turn into spirits when they are in the moon gate world. The only person we see as a spirit there is the old man, and he is a spirit because he has died.

Wrong. There's a magician in the Village of the blue maiden who's a spirit and HE's not dead.



I'll repeat what the main point is which you've refused to listen to.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

I put it in four times so you couldn't miss it.

@Skylark
I've discovered that the curtain and the moon gate world do not have the same affects on people. People do not turn into spirits when they are in the moon gate world. The only person we see as a spirit there is the old man, and he is a spirit because he has died. Throughout the game, he tells you he regrets having done something. If you do what he did, you die. So he's dead, and that's why he's a spirit. Other than that, everyone in the moon gate world maintains their original form. For example, all the people there in the village of the Blue Maiden are not spirits. So the affects are not the same.

People on one side of the curtain appear as spirits to those on the other sides. My assumption of the strength of the veil was based on this, as everyone is not affected instantly.

They don't have the same affect on people, and they don't even have the same nature. One is a condition on the land, like the clouds, and the other is an alternate universe. You really have no evidence that they're the same thing or related, and it doesn't work better in any way if they are.

The veil in FSA IS a condition on the land. However, it is unfinished and is a gradual process. If left alone it would fully become what we see in TP. However, in it's unfinished state, Link can travel in between the two states.

Let me put it this way.
In FSA, Link's in the veil can pick up Links in the Light world. In alltp that is impossible, as the two worlds are not physically connected.
In FSA if you knock down a peg in the light world, it is also knocked down in the DW and vice versa. This is not the case in Alttp.

Look at TP, if you do something while the TC is there, the effects stay after the curtain is lifted.

The barriers are what keep the darkness covering the land intact. The moon gate world has nothing to do with those barriers. When one of the barriers is destroyed, the clouds over the next level dissipate. Therefore, that is what the barriers are for.

As the clouds grow, so does the MGW. it's the physical effects of the MGW spreading/
Look in TP, you can see the TC if you are outside it. It is a giant black area. The clouds are the same thing, just at a lesser potency.
The barriers keep those clouds in place ( and thus the DW) from dissipating. Therefore it is a power source of sorts.

I'm sorry I called all that fanfiction, but even if you choose to make that assumption, it still doesn't work better than the moon gate world being the DW. I've explained the fundamental difference between the moon gate world and the TC again and again, and haven't gotten a straight rebuttle once.

You also ignored Erimgard's post that shows all of the problems of the corrupted SR being the MGW. Which is many more problems than the TC =MGW

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Who the **** is Mr. Moldy man?

The guy whose name is italicized and has a "Forum Mod" banner.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Levle... 6? It's in the village of the blue maiden.

I used that as an example myself, but for the other side of the argument. Watch this video, and you'll find that I was right. And besides, if there is one person in the village who is a spirit, it doesn't matter, because we see plenty of people in the very same village and throughout the rest of the game who are in the DW but are not spirits. Another example is all the Dekus in the DW in the forest. You've lost here.

The mirror is the way to get to the TR. The Moongates are the way to get into the MGW because you don't have the ToC. Get it?

No. The ToC has nothing to do with the MGW. It only does if the MGW is the TC, but since you lost on the spirit thing you have no reason to believe that.

As I've tried to explain about a thousand times, now. If the MGW is the TC, the reasn you need the MPs to get in is because you don't have the ToC or the co-operation of the/a Twili.

The ToC does not allow Link to enter the Twilight. It allows him to maintain his form. This is not necessary in the MGW, as nobody changes form anyway. He just needs the MPs to get into the world in the first place.

Ahem...
I asume that you're fine with this as you said earlier in your post?

Dude, that was sarcasm. How would stealing a mirror cause darkness?

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

The only reason he maintained his form was because he had the ToC.

Who the **** is Mr. Moldy man?

Erimgard.

Wrong. There's a magician in the Village of the blue maiden who's a spirit and HE's not dead.

No, actually he's not a spirit. Pause at around 4:00. He maintains his normal form, just like everybody else in the game. You lose here.

I'll repeat what the main point is which you've refused to listen to.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

You don't seem to get it do you? The only reason Link was brought into the TC in TP was because he had the toC, otherwise he would have become a spirit like everyone else.

The only reason he maintained his form was because he had the ToC.

The only reason he maintained his form was because he had the ToC.

The only reason he maintained his form was because he had the ToC.

The only reason he maintained his form was because he had the ToC.

I put it in four times so you couldn't miss it. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Skylark

People on one side of the curtain appear as spirits to those on the other sides. My assumption of the strength of the veil was based on this, as everyone is not affected instantly.

No. The people in the MGW are not apparent to the people in the Light World. They are only apparent to Link because he can "sense the moon gates" like the dude at the entrance to the village of the Blue Maiden says.

The veil in FSA IS a condition on the land. However, it is unfinished and is a gradual process. If left alone it would fully become what we see in TP. However, in it's unfinished state, Link can travel in between the two states.

Yes, the clouds are the condition on the land. However, there is no reason fr you to believe that the darkness covering the land and the MGW are connected in anyway. That's not even a logical assumption.

Let me put it this way.
In FSA, Link's in the veil can pick up Links in the Light world. In alltp that is impossible, as the two worlds are not physically connected.
In FSA if you knock down a peg in the light world, it is also knocked down in the DW and vice versa. This is not the case in Alttp.

Look at TP, if you do something while the TC is there, the effects stay after the curtain is lifted.

The affects of what Link does in the TC remain after the TC is lifted because the TC is a condition. Yes, the MGW does have differences from the DW of ALttP, but it doesn't really matter, as we know it was originally supposed to be the DW anyway, and we have no reason to believe it's te TC now, and it doesn't work better if it is the TC anyway.

As the clouds grow, so does the MGW. it's the physical effects of the MGW spreading/

Dude, the MGW is an alternate dimension. It doesn't spread, and if it did, there would be no physical effects. The clouds are a result of Vaati gettting unsealed and are in no way connected to the MGW.

Look in TP, you can see the TC if you are outside it. It is a giant black area. The clouds are the same thing, just at a lesser potency.
The barriers keep those clouds in place ( and thus the DW) from dissipating. Therefore it is a power source of sorts.

Agreed, but I don't really care about the clouds. What matters is what the MGW is. Again, we know it was originally supposed to be the DW. There is no evidence in TP to change the MGW to the SR, and even if there was evidence, it would still work better as the DW anyway.

You also ignored Erimgard's post that shows all of the problems of the corrupted SR being the MGW. Which is many more problems than the TC =MGW

No I did not.

By ME
@Mr. Modly Man
I just don't see reason for the original intent to have changed. There are minor differences between the DW and the place in FSA, but fundamentally they're the same: reflections of Hyrule. The TC is vastly different from the world accessed by the moon gates. The TC is a condition, and the moon gates do not turn that condition on or off or however you imagine they would work. The moon gates lead to an alternate dimension which mirrors Hyrule. The fact is, even though the moon gate world is different from the DW, it's closer to the DW than it is to the TR.

I said that the minor differences are incosequential compared to the entirely different natures of the TC and the MGW. This is back to my point that it still works better if the MGW is the DW than if it is the TC. A difference in nature is far worse than a few technical details. And by the way, you're still ignoring my point. How do you explain the differences in the nature of the TC and the MGW?

I used that as an example myself, but for the other side of the argument. Watch this video, and you'll find that I was right. And besides, if there is one person in the village who is a spirit, it doesn't matter, because we see plenty of people in the very same village and throughout the rest of the game who are in the DW but are not spirits. Another example is all the Dekus in the DW in the forest. You've lost here.

They don't apear as spirits because they're on the same side of the veil as you are.

Another example is all the Dekus in the DW in the forest.

What? That doesn't matter as I don't beleive the darkness in the forest to be the TC.

No. The ToC has nothing to do with the MGW. It only does if the MGW is the TC, but since you lost on the spirit thing you have no reason to believe that.

OMG. The ToC allowed Link to go into the TC and not just go into the light world and become a spirit.

Dude, that was sarcasm. How would stealing a mirror cause darkness?

Ganon, causes darkness by touching/infecting the mirror. not by stealing it

No, actually he's not a spirit. Pause at around 4:00. He maintains his normal form, just like everybody else in the game. You lose here.

That's because he's on the same side of the veil as you. The point isn't weather they actually become spirits, the point is why they don't become animals.

No. The people in the MGW are not apparent to the people in the Light World. They are only apparent to Link because he can "sense the moon gates" like the dude at the entrance to the village of the Blue Maiden says.

Source please?

Yes, the clouds are the condition on the land. However, there is no reason fr you to believe that the darkness covering the land and the MGW are connected in anyway. That's not even a logical assumption.

Not really. Look at the sky in a TC in TP... it's cloudy

The affects of what Link does in the TC remain after the TC is lifted because the TC is a condition. Yes, the MGW does have differences from the DW of ALttP, but it doesn't really matter, as we know it was originally supposed to be the DW anyway, and we have no reason to believe it's te TC now, and it doesn't work better if it is the TC anyway.

We don't KNOW weather it was origanally supposed to be the DW from ALttP. And you avoided the point.

Agreed, but I don't really care about the clouds. What matters is what the MGW is. Again, we know it was originally supposed to be the DW. There is no evidence in TP to change the MGW to the SR, and even if there was evidence, it would still work better as the DW anyway

Again, we don't know that as a fact.

Answer me in point frmat these.

Why don't people turn into a physical manifestation of the good or evil in their hearts when the enter?
Why do moon pearls create portals, instead of there being only one moon pearl that acts as a protection against transformation?
Where the "one-way" portals from aLttP?
Why can Link enter and exit the Dark World at will without the magic mirror?
Why does no one in the game ever mention the Sacred Realm, whilst aLttP states clearly on numerous occasions that you're in the corrupted Sacred Realm?
Why does one of the Maidens in aLttP tell you that Ganon rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost for a long time if its location is obviously known about in FSA?

And for the love of God...

We don't know if the DW from FSA was origanally supposed to be the one from ALttP.

We don't know if the DW from FSA was origanally supposed to be the one from ALttP.

We don't know if the DW from FSA was origanally supposed to be the one from ALttP.

We don't know if the DW from FSA was origanally supposed to be the one from ALttP.

We don't know if the DW from FSA was origanally supposed to be the one from ALttP.

And

Without the ToC, Link would have just entered the world of light and become a spirit like everyone else.

Without the ToC, Link would have just entered the world of light and become a spirit like everyone else.

Without the ToC, Link would have just entered the world of light and become a spirit like everyone else.

Without the ToC, Link would have just entered the world of light and become a spirit like everyone else.

[QUOTE=Ollathir;2514736]

No. The people in the MGW are not apparent to the people in the Light World. They are only apparent to Link because he can "sense the moon gates" like the dude at the entrance to the village of the Blue Maiden says.

Hey, that is similar to Tp where Link can sense the spirits in the TC

They are 'spirits" because they are unseen by those of the other side yet they are existing in the same physical space. We know it is the same physical space because when you effect the land in one you see it happen in the other. That is why it is just not "another dimension"

Yes, the clouds are the condition on the land. However, there is no reason fr you to believe that the darkness covering the land and the MGW are connected in anyway. That's not even a logical assumption.

seriously. Listen to yourself. The clouds come and then people start vanishing into the MGW. When you destroy the barriers the clouds vanish AND (village of the blue maiden example) people trapped in the MGW return to normal, showing the MGW vanished as well. If it did not vanish they would still be trapped.

The affects of what Link does in the TC remain after the TC is lifted because the TC is a condition. Yes, the MGW does have differences from the DW of ALttP, but it doesn't really matter, as we know it was originally supposed to be the DW anyway, and we have no reason to believe it's te TC now, and it doesn't work better if it is the TC anyway.

Alltp DW - the two are seperate, physical actions do not effect the other.

FSA MGW- Take place in the same physical space. Once again you see this happen in the village of the blue maiden. If you move something in one world it changes in the other.

Yes the FSA MGW was originally the DW. However, anouma lost complete control over that project. He then made TP, which even you know has alot of the things that FSA was supposed to be in it. I believe TP elaborates on what we see in FSA.

Dude, the MGW is an alternate dimension. It doesn't spread, and if it did, there would be no physical effects. The clouds are a result of Vaati gettting unsealed and are in no way connected to the MGW.

Except the clouds and the MGW vanish at the same time. The clouds exist in areas that the MGW is screwing things up. People are getting trapped in the MGW only after the clouds appear. Sure man, the are not connected

Agreed, but I don't really care about the clouds. What matters is what the MGW is. Again, we know it was originally supposed to be the DW. There is no evidence in TP to change the MGW to the SR, and even if there was evidence, it would still work better as the DW anyway.

Why would it work better. You keep telling us why we are wrong. but you do not say what the pros of it being the DW is.

Erimgard already listed all the cons for the MGW=DW and there are many more cons for that then there are for TC = MGW.

I said that the minor differences are incosequential compared to the entirely different natures of the TC and the MGW. This is back to my point that it still works better if the MGW is the DW than if it is the TC. A difference in nature is far worse than a few technical details. And by the way, you're still ignoring my point. How do you explain the differences in the nature of the TC and the MGW?

What differences in nature? they have the same effect on those who enter it. They are both connected to the Mirror of Twilight. Both turn the inhabitants in "spirits" (quotations because it is not literal.) Both require the same thing to make it vanish. Both cover Hyrule with "darkness." What more do you want? TELL ME YOUR PROS INSTEAD OF SAYING WHY MINE ARE WRONG!

Where did the idea of "varying potency" of the Curtain of Twilight come from? The only confirmed Curtain of Twilight (and subsequent state of it) is the one in TP, and that was never linked to the Mirror of Twilight. Ganondorf and Zant were behind it, and the game makes it look like the Curtain of Twilight is the natural result of a Light Spirit being weakened/defeated to boot. Also, the Curtain of Twilight certainly didn't look like a cloud.

Do people inside of FSA's supposed Curtain of Twilight notice it? If so, there's no way it could be the Curtain of Twilight, seeing as how anyone turned into a spirit by the Curtain of Twilight had no idea that anything was wrong.

Originally Posted by Skylark

Hey, that is similar to Tp where Link can sense the spirits in the TC

Grasping at straws I see. No, not similar, very very different.

They are 'spirits" because they are unseen by those of the other side yet they are existing in the same physical space. We know it is the same physical space because when you effect the land in one you see it happen in the other. That is why it is just not "another dimension"

Gameplay, Skylark. Gameplay.

seriously. Listen to yourself. The clouds come and then people start vanishing into the MGW. When you destroy the barriers the clouds vanish AND (village of the blue maiden example) people trapped in the MGW return to normal, showing the MGW vanished as well. If it did not vanish they would still be trapped.

Listen to myself? Listen to yourself! How can we both be supremely confident that the other makes no sense? This is retarded.

And no, the clouds are gone from the village of the blue maiden before Link ever goes there. The barrier destroyed at the end of the level clears the clouds aay from the next level.

Alltp DW - the two are seperate, physical actions do not effect the other.

FSA MGW- Take place in the same physical space. Once again you see this happen in the village of the blue maiden. If you move something in one world it changes in the other.

How many times do I have to tell you it doesn't f****** matter?!?!?! We know what the intent was.

Yes the FSA MGW was originally the DW. However, anouma lost complete control over that project. He then made TP, which even you know has alot of the things that FSA was supposed to be in it. I believe TP elaborates on what we see in FSA.

Yes but that does not change what we see in FSA. There is NO EVIDENCE that the MGW is the TC. None.

Except the clouds and the MGW vanish at the same time. The clouds exist in areas that the MGW is screwing things up. People are getting trapped in the MGW only after the clouds appear. Sure man, the are not connected

I think I pretty much screwed that argument over in pointing out that the clouds disappear in an area before Link ever goes to an area. Even when there's no clouds, there's a MGW.

Why would it work better. You keep telling us why we are wrong. but you do not say what the pros of it being the DW is.

Don't want to sound too confident, but I don't need to. The one huge con you have is much worse than the tiny little ones I have. What it all boils down to is that you have no evidence for your beliefs.

Erimgard already listed all the cons for the MGW=DW and there are many more cons for that then there are for TC = MGW.

Quality>Quantity. I have minor differences. You have the total difference in nature.

What differences in nature? they have the same effect on those who enter it. They are both connected to the Mirror of Twilight. Both turn the inhabitants in "spirits" (quotations because it is not literal.) Both require the same thing to make it vanish. Both cover Hyrule with "darkness." What more do you want? TELL ME YOUR PROS INSTEAD OF SAYING WHY MINE ARE WRONG!

They do not have the same effect. The TC turns them into literal spirits, while the MGW turns them into the things only evident to Link, who can sense the gates. The mirror of Twilight has nothing to do with the clouds or the MGW, and the clouds have nothing to do with the MGW. The three are entirely separate. The clouds are caused by Vaati's escape. The MGW is a mirror-like place and can exist where there are no clouds. The TC vanishes as a result of the light spirits getting their power back. The clouds, not the MGW, vanish when the barrier keeping them intact is destroyed. The TC covers Hyrule with darkness, while the MGW has nothing to do with the clouds covering Hyrule in FSA.

Now that I've told you why your pros are wrong, I'll give you mine like you asked. Of course, they're unnecessary, as you don't have any yourself and I'm supporing what we know to be the original intent, and you have no evidence that the intent has changed.

1) Both are a mirror of Hyrule, with minor differences. (of most importance)
2) Both are actually referred to as the Dark World
3) Both involve the use of moon pearls, if somewhat differently.

If you actually had a case for the intent changing, I would need to make a better case for it having not changed. However, if I can convince you that you have no case, I don't need to make one at all. That's why I wasn't listing my pros. However, you've taught me that it's better to have a case for my side in the event that you have one AND try to make sure that you don't have one. I'll do that from now on.

I would like to repeat my point that the MGW exists where there are no clouds, so they are clearly not connected.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Where did the idea of "varying potency" of the Curtain of Twilight come from? The only confirmed Curtain of Twilight (and subsequent state of it) is the one in TP, and that was never linked to the Mirror of Twilight. Ganondorf and Zant were behind it, and the game makes it look like the Curtain of Twilight is the natural result of a Light Spirit being weakened/defeated to boot. Also, the Curtain of Twilight certainly didn't look like a cloud.

I brought it up because the curtain in FSA has the same effects on someone once they are in it. However it takes much longer to effect and area and it does not instantly "spiritize" people

Do people inside of FSA's supposed Curtain of Twilight notice it? If so, there's no way it could be the Curtain of Twilight, seeing as how anyone turned into a spirit by the Curtain of Twilight had no idea that anything was wrong.

No, they are just like "where did everyone go" because the curtain effects people more slowly not everyone is effected at once. Anything they notice is directly caused by something on the other side of the curtain.

the way i see it. In TP (full strengh) covers the entire region in a blanket. Everything is under it. However in FSA it is kinda like a line. One side is the way things should be, while the other is under the same effects as TP, just at a lesser stage.

Anyways. Now that I remember why this debate started. I think I am done. Until someone can tell me how this effects LoZ ganon in any way, I'll be focusing on something else.

One part of my argument was sorry. Let me do it over...

They are 'spirits" because they are unseen by those of the other side yet they are existing in the same physical space. We know it is the same physical space because when you effect the land in one you see it happen in the other. That is why it is just not "another dimension"

Just because one affects the other does not mean they are the same physical space. Isn't there a theory about Termina affecting Hyrule in TP? Yeah. Same concept here. It's stated in FSA that the MGW, or the DW, as it's called in the game, is a mirror of Hyrule. What happens on one side of the mirror affects what happens on the other.

Great way to avoid my post Ollathir...

How many times do I have to tell you it doesn't f****** matter?!?!?! We know what the intent was.

NO WE DON'T!

The DW was going to be the SR when Aunuma was making the it the SW, but that could have changed when Miamotto "upended the teatable".

The clouds are caused by Vaati's escape.

Random fact: The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.

Just because one affects the other does not mean they are the same physical space.

IT's LIKE IN TP

List of pros

-The DW behaves almost exactly like the TR
-The DW from FSA and ALttP look entirely different
-The people don't apear as animals.
-It explains the quote in ALttP "The SR has not been seen for a very long time"

Now then, answer me these questions. ANSWER THEM AND DON'T EVADE THEM!

Why don't people turn into a physical manifestation of the good or evil in their hearts when the enter?
Why do moon pearls create portals, instead of there being only one moon pearl that acts as a protection against transformation?
Where the "one-way" portals from aLttP?
Why can Link enter and exit the Dark World at will without the magic mirror?
Why does no one in the game ever mention the Sacred Realm, whilst aLttP states clearly on numerous occasions that you're in the corrupted Sacred Realm?
Why does one of the Maidens in aLttP tell you that Ganon rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost for a long time if its location is obviously known about in FSA?

And I'll repeat this last bit of info one more time...

The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.

I'm sorry. Ollathir, it was a great battle but now it's finally over. The SR can't be around after ALttP thanks to these quotes.

If someone with a righteous heart
makes a wish, it will lead Hyrule
to a golden age of prosperity....
If someone with an evil mind has
his wish granted, the world will
be consumed by evil...

The resting place of the sacred
triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a
mirror that reflects what is
in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will
become full of evil; if pure,
the Realm will become a paradise.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Great way to avoid my post Ollathir...

I'm not avoiding it. I'm giving the logical answer.

NO WE DON'T!

Dude, it was CALLED the DW in the game. You can't argue with that.

The DW was going to be the SR when Aunuma was making the it the SW, but that could have changed when Miamotto "upended the teatable".

I'm pretty sure Aonuma said there were no "upending the teatable" moments in that interview.

Random fact: The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.

I think you're right one, but it's still just a random fact and doesn't matter.

IT's LIKE IN TP

And like in ALttP. If you recall, in the second dungeon in the DW, you have to pull levers and flip switches in the DW to make things happen in the Light World. One of Sahasrahla's panels tells you that the two worlds are mirrors of eachother, and what happens in one world affects what happens in the other. This is the case in FSA and ALttP.

List of pros

-The DW behaves almost exactly like the TR

The TC you mean? BS. The MGW doesn't turn people into spirits, and it is not a condition on the land.

-The DW from FSA and ALttP look entirely different

WTF? They're both mirrors of Hyrule, and they look the same. What are you talking abuot. And am I supposed to believe that the MGW "looks like" the TC? More BS.

-The people don't apear as animals.

Nor do they appear as spirits, as in the TC. It is a problem either way.

-It explains the quote in ALttP "The SR has not been seen for a very long time"

FSA was released after the latest version of ALttP, potentially invalidating that quote, as I am trying to prove.

Now then, answer me these questions. ANSWER THEM AND DON'T EVADE THEM!

I haven't evaded them, but obviously my answer doesn't satisfy you (even though it's f****** CALLED the DW)

Why don't people turn into a physical manifestation of the good or evil in their hearts when the enter?

Don't know. Why don't people turn into spirits when they enter. Point is, this is neutral.

Why do moon pearls create portals, instead of there being only one moon pearl that acts as a protection against transformation?

Moon pearls do not create portals. The portals are already there, and the pearls open them. I admit this is different from in ALttP.

Where the "one-way" portals from aLttP?

The question doesn't make sense.

Why can Link enter and exit the Dark World at will without the magic mirror?

Moon Gates.

Why does no one in the game ever mention the Sacred Realm, whilst aLttP states clearly on numerous occasions that you're in the corrupted Sacred Realm?

It's not relevant to the story, and the name "DW" makes it obvious.

Why does one of the Maidens in aLttP tell you that Ganon rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost for a long time if its location is obviously known about in FSA?

Because FSA was released after the newest version of ALttP.

[/QUOTE]And I'll repeat this last bit of info one more time...

The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.[/QUOTE]

True. So what?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I'm sorry. Ollathir, it was a great battle but now it's finally over. The SR can't be around after ALttP thanks to these quotes.

Don't be so confident. Those quotes suck.

If someone with a righteous heart
makes a wish, it will lead Hyrule
to a golden age of prosperity....
If someone with an evil mind has
his wish granted, the world will
be consumed by evil...

This is what we see at the end of ALttP, when Link wishes on the Triforce. Hyrule is restored.

The resting place of the sacred
triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a
mirror that reflects what is
in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will
become full of evil; if pure,
the Realm will become a paradise.

That doesn't even say anything about the Triforce except that it's in the SR.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Great way to avoid my post Ollathir...

I'm not avoiding it. I'm giving the logical answer.

NO WE DON'T!

Dude, it was CALLED the DW in the game. You can't argue with that.

The DW was going to be the SR when Aunuma was making the it the SW, but that could have changed when Miamotto "upended the teatable".

I'm pretty sure Aonuma said there were no "upending the teatable" moments in that interview.

Random fact: The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.

I think you're right one, but it's still just a random fact and doesn't matter.

IT's LIKE IN TP

And like in ALttP. If you recall, in the second dungeon in the DW, you have to pull levers and flip switches in the DW to make things happen in the Light World. One of Sahasrahla's panels tells you that the two worlds are mirrors of eachother, and what happens in one world affects what happens in the other. This is the case in FSA and ALttP.

List of pros

-The DW behaves almost exactly like the TR

The TC you mean? BS. The MGW doesn't turn people into spirits, and it is not a condition on the land.

-The DW from FSA and ALttP look entirely different

WTF? They're both mirrors of Hyrule, and they look the same. What are you talking abuot. And am I supposed to believe that the MGW "looks like" the TC? More BS.

-The people don't apear as animals.

Nor do they appear as spirits, as in the TC. It is a problem either way.

-It explains the quote in ALttP "The SR has not been seen for a very long time"

FSA was released after the latest version of ALttP, potentially invalidating that quote, as I am trying to prove.

Now then, answer me these questions. ANSWER THEM AND DON'T EVADE THEM!

I haven't evaded them, but obviously my answer doesn't satisfy you (even though it's f****** CALLED the DW)

Why don't people turn into a physical manifestation of the good or evil in their hearts when the enter?

Don't know. Why don't people turn into spirits when they enter. Point is, this is neutral.

Why do moon pearls create portals, instead of there being only one moon pearl that acts as a protection against transformation?

Moon pearls do not create portals. The portals are already there, and the pearls open them. I admit this is different from in ALttP.

Where the "one-way" portals from aLttP?

The question doesn't make sense.

Why can Link enter and exit the Dark World at will without the magic mirror?

Moon Gates.

Why does no one in the game ever mention the Sacred Realm, whilst aLttP states clearly on numerous occasions that you're in the corrupted Sacred Realm?

It's not relevant to the story, and the name "DW" makes it obvious.

Why does one of the Maidens in aLttP tell you that Ganon rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost for a long time if its location is obviously known about in FSA?

Because FSA was released after the newest version of ALttP.

[/QUOTE]And I'll repeat this last bit of info one more time...

The Clouds were spreading before Vaati got out of the FS.[/QUOTE]

True. So what?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I'm sorry. Ollathir, it was a great battle but now it's finally over. The SR can't be around after ALttP thanks to these quotes.

Don't be so confident. Those quotes suck.

If someone with a righteous heart
makes a wish, it will lead Hyrule
to a golden age of prosperity....
If someone with an evil mind has
his wish granted, the world will
be consumed by evil...

This is what we see at the end of ALttP, when Link wishes on the Triforce. Hyrule is restored.

The resting place of the sacred
triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a
mirror that reflects what is
in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will
become full of evil; if pure,
the Realm will become a paradise.

That doesn't even say anything about the Triforce except that it's in the SR.

Dude, it was CALLED the DW in the game. You can't argue with that.

So?

I'm pretty sure Aonuma said there were no "upending the teatable" moments in that interview.

Aunuma had the plot written out nice and neat for FSA to become the SW then Miamotto upended the tea table and made them redo all the work. It's as simple as that.

I think you're right one, but it's still just a random fact and doesn't matter.

Yes it does.

Your explenation for the clouds is Vaati, but since the clouds were spreading before Vaati came out of the FS, it had to have been some other force... like the TC!

WTF? They're both mirrors of Hyrule, and they look the same. What are you talking abuot. And am I supposed to believe that the MGW "looks like" the TC? More BS.

ALttP's DW looks nothing like the Light world... FSA mimics everything...

FSA was released after the latest version of ALttP, potentially invalidating that quote, as I am trying to prove.

ALttP-ALttPRemake-FSA-ALttP VC.

The question doesn't make sense.

I mean the things that you use to get into the DW in ALttP...

That doesn't even say anything about the Triforce except that it's in the SR.

Read it again...

The resting place of the sacred
triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a
mirror that reflects what is
in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will
become full of evil; if pure,
the Realm will become a paradise.

*8CACWelcome, Link...
I am the Essence Of The
Triforce.
... ... ...*8B*3

*8C*3The Triforce will grant the
wishes in the heart and mind of
the person who touches it.*8B*3

*8C*3If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.*8B*3

*8C*3The stronger the wish, the
more powerful the Triforce's
expression of that wish.*8B*3

*8C*3Ganon's wish was to conquer
the world. That wish changed
the Golden Land to the Dark
World.*8B*3

*8C*3Ganon was building up his
power here so he could conquer
the Light World and make his
wish come completely true.*8B*3

*8C*3But now, you have totally
destroyed Ganon. His Dark
World will vanish.*8B*3

*8C*3The Triforce is waiting for a
new owner. Its Golden Power is
in your hands...*8B*3

*8C*3Now, touch it with a wish in
your heart.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

So?

Oh...my...god.

Aunuma had the plot written out nice and neat for FSA to become the SW then Miamotto upended the tea table and made them redo all the work. It's as simple as that.

Care to show me?

Yes it does.

Your explenation for the clouds is Vaati, but since the clouds were spreading before Vaati came out of the FS, it had to have been some other force... like the TC!

I said Vaati's role is unclear. It was probably because of Ganondorf becoming the KoD when stealing the Triforce.

ALttP's DW looks nothing like the Light world... FSA mimics everything...

Not really. There are a lot of similarities between the DW of ALttP and the Light World.

ALttP-ALttPRemake-FSA-ALttP VC.

All the VC games are the original versions. If there's been a remake that retcons the original, and then the original comes out on VC, it doesn't re-canonize the original.

I mean the things that you use to get into the DW in ALttP...

I don't even know much about those. I got stuck because I couldn't figure out how to get to the third dungeon. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it says that those are opening up because the seal is strating to unwravel or something like that, so they wouldn't even be there yet in FSA.

Read it again...

That's talking about the heart of the person who enters it, not the affects of the Triforce. I don't know how the heart thing works. It seems to have been retconned by OoT.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

*8CACWelcome, Link...
I am the Essence Of The
Triforce.
... ... ...*8B*3

*8C*3The Triforce will grant the
wishes in the heart and mind of
the person who touches it.*8B*3

*8C*3If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.*8B*3

*8C*3The stronger the wish, the
more powerful the Triforce's
expression of that wish.*8B*3

*8C*3Ganon's wish was to conquer
the world. That wish changed
the Golden Land to the Dark
World.*8B*3

*8C*3Ganon was building up his
power here so he could conquer
the Light World and make his
wish come completely true.*8B*3

*8C*3But now, you have totally
destroyed Ganon. His Dark
World will vanish.*8B*3

*8C*3The Triforce is waiting for a
new owner. Its Golden Power is
in your hands...*8B*3

*8C*3Now, touch it with a wish in
your heart.

I like how you boldened it. It shows that the Triforce means his Dark World will vanish because he has been destroyed.

However, that has clearly been retconned by FSA. If the DW is around in FSA, then it means it survived his death in OoX, awhich wa the same as his death in ALttP, meaning the DW would survive after all.

Let me try to reorganize this. We've gotten kind of lost.

The MGW was obviously intended to be the DW of ALttP when FSA was released, as that is what it is called. There are a few minor problems with this...

1) The MGW does not turn people into reflections of their hearts.
2) The moon pearls are used differently.

You think that TP retcons the original intent. However, the following problems are present.

1) The MGW does not turn people into spirits.
2) It is not a condition on the land.

The first problems with each cancel eachother out. However, the moon pearls being used differently is not as significant as the TC, if that's what it is, having an entirely different nature.