Personal Views on Points of Controversy II

ok not sure if you listed some of these but i got some theories for them. for ganon's names: Ganondorf is the human/thief form, but when coming in contact with the dark realm, he was corrupt and gained the demon form of ganon, the triforces are kinda addressed in OoT, ganon takes his peace, and link and zelda get there's from divine intervention, which brings me to ganon's mortality, i believe that after ganon obtained the trifoce of power, he gained immortality, but the Master Sword wielded by the hero of time could slay him. in TP link and zelda inherit the triforce from ancestors, and ganon is still alive, when the sages try to execute him the triforce keeps him alive, but he is left wounded from the sword. but if you look at his hand in his death scene, after link stabs him the triforce lights up, then fades and the make is no longer on his hand, implying that his power was lost, and ganon has finally been killed

Added some things on The Minish Cap, now that I've played through it a few times.

Debatin with Evilsbane on the TMC placement goes to give me the first new Hyrule title. LoZ and AoL are moved again to the end of the timeline now that I have a reasonable explenation on the titles.

This post is a test. The site hasn't let me edit my first post in this thread for over 24 hours now, so I'm trying to see if it will acknowledge this thread at all, or just say that it doesn't exist.

Edit: It worked, but I'm still not certain if my first post can be edited now. To be safe, I'll just post the paragraph here and insert it in my large post at a later date.

Originally Posted by Eiji Aonuma

The thing is, when making a new Zelda game, we don't necessarily start with the storyline first, we start with the game, and we think, "What's Link going to be like in this game? What kind of a character is he going to be, and what kind of a personality is he going to have?" In that sense, for us, we didn't necessarily feel there was a need to have an infinitive connection between everything, because it was this idea that Link is the hero no matter what. He's here, and he's part of the story.

AG that still doesn't mean they don't have a timeline.

These are the confirmed arcs.

OoT/MM=TP

TMC-FS/FSA

OoX

OoT-TWW/PH

LoZ/AoL

ALttP

LA

Originally Posted by Pinecove

AG that still doesn't mean they don't have a timeline.

You haven't even seen where I intended to put the quote. I know that they have some idea of a timeline. Anyway, let's end that little issue now so that the thread doesn't go off-topic.

Changed some things around. Mainly LoZ is no longer in my timeline for the time being and official art is not Canon.

Legend of Zelda
-Ganon wasn't meant to wield the Trident.
-The Magical Sword is not the Master Sword.

Adventure of Link
-Legend of Zelda Hyrule, as stated in its manual, is a "little kingdom" in the Hyrule region. Adventure of Link Hyrule is the region, with Legend of Zelda Hyrule being the small southwest portion.
-Maze Island is the same place as the one from Phantom Hourglass.

A Link to the Past
-The GBA version, and the changes made in it, aren't more canon than the SNES version.
-The lumberjacks aren't another form taken on by the Kokiri.
-The Swamp Maiden's speach about Ganondorf not being able to leave the Sacred Realm is a reference to OoT Ganondorf, the one from the Seal War.

Link's Awakening
-The Wind Fish is the same type of spiritual being as the Ocean King of Phantom Hourglass.

Ocarina of Time
-Sharp and Flat were Hylian.
-The Sheikah didn't used Gossip stones to spy on the various races of Hyrule.
-Malon's mother was a hylian.
-The Desert Colossus is not representing Din.
-Kaepora Gaebora is not Rauru.
-During the seven years Link was asleep, Ganon did not kill the other six Ancient Sages.
-In the ending, Link was sent back to a point after he had left the forest, but before he had met Zelda.

Majora's Mask
-Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule.
-Skull Kid is the same one who you play Saria's Song for, and sell a mask to, in Ocarina of Time.
-Skull Kid is not the Happy Mask Salesman's conterpart.
-The Giants aren't counterparts to Twilight Princess' Light Spirits.
-The inside of the Moon is a physical manifestation of Skull Kid's psyche.
-The Garos did not brought the Light Arrows with the intention of flipping the Stone Tower.

Oracle of Seasons/Ages
-Seasons-Ages is the canon order.
-The Master Sword isn't canon.
-Onox and Veran are minions of Ganon.
-Link is not the same Link as featured in Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link.
-Jabu Jabu is a descendent of Ocarina of Time's Jabu Jabu, and Wind Waker's Jabun.
-The linked game and ending are canon.
-The Triforce does not returns to the Sacred Realm at the end of the linked game.
-The "Evil Realm" mentioned does not refers to the Twilight Realm.

Wind Waker
-Some of the Zoras evolved into Rito, some of them became "fierce Zoras", and others migrated out of Wind Waker's territory to other places, such as Labrynna.
-The plan of the Deku Tree and the Koroks to create more land with their seeds is a legitimate plot element for the rest of the series.

Minish Cap
-The book entitled "History of Hyrule" is not a cameo, and very well may be the story being referenced in the SNES A Link to the Past manual.
-Din, Nayru, and Farore are cameos.
-Vaati dies in the end, and therefore, must have been resurrected for Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures.

Twilight Princess
-The sages believe Ganondorf's Triforce of Power acquisition to be a "divine prank" because he never touched the Triforce.
-Ganondorf's "god complex" in Twilight Princess is the result of having a Triforce piece without touching the Triforce combined with surviving an execution attempt.
-Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time.
-Geography differences from Ocarina of Time are mostly due to retcon.
-The Temple of Time is the same one from Ocarina of Time.
-Ganondorf and Zant did not become soulbound to each other.

Phantom Hourglass
-The six sages that have graves in Phantom Hourglass are the Sages from Ocarina of Time, barring Zelda.
-The fact that Link and Zelda were only gone for 10 minutes is explained by the fact that Link retains the [now empty] Phantom Hourglass: They were returned to their world and time by the power of the Ocean King and the Phantom Hourglass.
-The islands of Phantom Hourglass, with the help of the Koroks, eventually become the basis of the Hyrule seen in Adventure of Link.

^ Instead of posting replies to Erimgars just please state what your beliefs are...

I've added a backup timeline to my agenda just incase all of hell breaks loose with some timeline, so I'll have one to go back to:

OoT-TWW/PH
OoT/MM-TP-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-LoZ/AoL

Nittles's Personal Views on Points of Controversy


Last Updated: February 4, 2009

Game Specific Topics


Legend of Zelda
-The Magical Sword is not the Master Sword.

Adventure of Link
-Legend of Zelda Hyrule, as stated in its manual, is a "little kingdom" in the Hyrule region. Adventure of Link Hyrule is the region, with Legend of Zelda Hyrule being the small southwest portion.

A Link to the Past
-Ganon split his soul, creating a "bunshin", in order to escape the Seal prior to A Link to the Past.
-Ganon's soul-split possessed Agahnim.
-Agahnim was an ideal target for Ganon, as he was an evil priest.
-When Agahnim died, Ganon's soul-split left his body and returned to Ganon.

Link's Awakening
-The Wind Fish is a descendant of, and/or the same type of spiritual being as the Ocean King of Phantom Hourglass.

Ocarina of Time
-The Sheikah used Gossip stones to spy on the various races of Hyrule.
-The Desert Colossus is not representing Din.
-During the seven years Link was asleep, Ganon killed the other six Ancient Sages.
-During the seven years Link was asleep, Ganon killed the Hylian Knights.
-In the ending, Link was sent back to a point after he had left the forest, but before he had met Zelda.

Majora's Mask
-Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule.
-Skull Kid is the same one who you play Saria's Song for, and sell a mask to, in Ocarina of Time.
-The Giants are counterparts to Twilight Princess' Light Spirits.
-The inside of the Moon is a physical manifestation of Skull Kid's psyche.
-The Stone Tower was built as a defiance to the Goddesses of Hyrule, who the people associated with the despised Skull Kid.

Oracle of Seasons/Ages
-The games can be played in either order without major effects to the storyling, but Seasons-Ages is the more canon order.
-The Master Sword is not canon
-Onox and Veran are Twili.
-Link may or may not be the same Link as featured in Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link.
-Jabu Jabu is a descendent of Ocarina of Time's Jabu Jabu, and/or Wind Waker's Jabun.
-The linked game and ending are canon.
-The Triforce returns to the Sacred Realm at the end of the linked game.
-The "Evil Realm" mentioned refers to the Twilight Realm, and it is "spreading" in the form of darkness over the land, similar to the Twilight Curtain.

Wind Waker
-Prior to Wind Waker, Ganon escaped the Sacred Realm Seal without breaking it.
-Ganon's escape of the Sacred Realm Seal is left unexplained, and will likely never be explained. As Hylian text states, "he was revived for no reason".
-Ganon's escape of the Flood Seal can be explained by Ganon splitting his soul, using the bunshin to kill the two Sages who empower the Master Sword, putting the two parts of his soul back together, and being free to roam, as the Master Sword no longer had the power to seal him.
-The Kokiri, as spirits, did not techincally "evolve", but instead, took on a new form, and became the Koroks.
-Some of the Zoras evolved into Rito, some of them became "fierce Zoras", and others migrated out of Wind Waker's territory to other places, such as Labrynna.
-Daphnes' mention of the "laws of the past" are a reference to Zelda's duty as the Princess to protect the Triforce of Wisdom from evil.
-Daphnes' wish sent the Triforce off to await a new owner.
-Ganon's physical body was destroyed in the ending, but his spirit remained intact.

Four Swords Adventures
-Ganondorf is an ordinary Geurdo male possesed by the spirit of the original Ganon, residing in the Trident.

Minish Cap
-This game is the first in the series.
-All book titles are cameos.
-Din, Nayru, and Farore are cameos as well.
-Vaati dies in the end, and therefore, must have been resurrected for Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures.

Twilight Princess
-The state of the Triforce in Twilight Princess is the result of the Goddesses [being outside of the influence of the split timeline] granting the rightful owners their Triforce pieces regardless of the timeline.
-The sages believe Ganondorf's Triforce of Power acquisition to be a "divine prank" because he never touched the Triforce.
-Ganondorf's "god complex" in Twilight Princess is the result of having a Triforce piece without touching the Triforce combined with surviving an execution attempt.
-Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time.
-Geography differences from Ocarina of Time are mostly due to retcon.
-The Temple of Time is the same one from Ocarina of Time.
-Ganondorf and Zant became soulbound to each other.
-Zants refusal to be revived led to Ganondorf's demise.
-Becuase Silver Arrows were not used, Ganon may still be alive in spirit.
-The state of the Triforce of Power in the ending is unknown.

Phantom Hourglass
-The Realm of the Ocean King is but a dream.
-Similarily to the Wind Fish's ability to create things in a physical world by dreaming, the Ocean King has the power to change/warp a physical things in the physical world to the point of it being nearly another dimension, though dreams are not required.


Non-Game Specific Topics


The Fierce, Prolonged Wars
-The bloodshed amongst the people spoken about in A Link to the Past and Twilight Princess are the same set of events.
-These events predate Ocarina of Time.
-Sometime during these wars is when a group of magic wielders [incorrectly called Interlopers by Nintendo of America] rose to power.
-The magic wielders are were made up of members of various tribes, and are not all of the same tribe, nor are they any entire tribe.
-This is when [as stated earlier] the Gossip Stones were used by the Sheikah to spy on various peoples and races.
-The Shadow Temple shows that the Sheikah had ways of dealing with any who were not loyal to the Royal Family.
-The unifying of Hyrule by the King prior to Ocarina of Time marks the end of these wars.
-All of the major tribes except for the Gerudos formed an alliance at this time.

The Adventure of Link Backstory/Manual
-The Adventure of Link manual is still canon, as the newest release of it is the exact same [in the Japanese text] as the very first release.
-"When Hyrule was one country" refers not to the days of Ocarina of Time, but to the time period in between the founding of the New Hyrule and the spreading out of the people into the rest of the "Hyrule region".
-The King had the complete Triforce.
-The Sleeping Zelda incident and the hiding of the Triforce of Courage are in a chronologically close proximity.
-Zelda's title of "first generation/founder" refers to her as being the first Zelda in the New Hyrule.
-The secret that the Princess knew was the location of the Triforce of Courage.
-The writer of the scroll is the King.

The A Link to the Past Manual
-The entire tale told in the manual is not OoT.

The Minish Cap Manual/Backstory
-The Hero of Men is not Gustaf.
-The Hero of Men may be Swifthblade I, but is more likely a Link we have not seen in any game.
-The Picori Blade is not the Master Sword or any other previously seen sword.
-The Light Force is not a piece of the Triforce.

The Seal/Imprisoning War
-The Seal War cannot happen at a time after the Triforce has left the Sacred Realm.
-The Seal War is the first time evil flowed from the Sacred Realm.

The Trident
-Afte tWW, Ganon's spirit goes and posses the Trident.
-Once it harbors Ganon's soul, the Trident has the power to turn anyone who wields it into The King of Darkness.
-The Four Swords Adventures Trident inscription [in Japanese], "Wielder of the Trident, the evil [ja-ki] of the demon resurrected from ancient times" indicates that the Trident was previously owned by the Ganon from Ocarina of TIme and Wind Waker.
-While "ja-ki" can mean "device/weapon", it can also mean "vessel", and in light of the Oracle's linked ending, "vessel" appears to be the appropriate translation.
-Four Swords Adventures Ganondorf takes the Trident, takes on Ganon's soul, and becomes The King of Darkness.

Ganon's Title
-Ganon's different titles in the games have no significance.

Force
-There is no real difference in "life force, "force gems", and "the Light Force", as all are the exact same word in Japanese. They are only in different forms, and thus, given different names in the English version.
-Life force is similar to a soul, and everyone has it.
-Force gems are crystalized life force.
-The Light Force is a powerful concentration of life force. Since Minish Cap says it came from the sky, it is quite possibly the life force of the Goddesses.
-As the "essence of the gods", the Triforce is very similar to three powerful force gems.
-Though the Triforce and the Light Force are not the same item, they are likely made of the same substance.
-Tears of Light from Twilight Princess are/function the same as force gems from Four Swords Adventures.


Spinoffs
-Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland is semi-canon as it explains the origins of Tingle.
-BS: Legend of Zelda may be semi-canon in showing director intent for Legend of Zelda Ganon to wield a Trident. Nothing important hinges on the canonity of it though.

Timeline
-Ocarina of Time causes a timeline split, with games coming after both of its endings.These two timelines are called the "Adult Timeline" and the "Child Timeline".
-The time period when Hyrule was "a beautiful land surrounded by forests and mountains" references the age of Ocarina of Time.
-This makes any game with a water and/or island-based Hyrule impossible to place on the Child Timeline.
-Ocarina of Time is the not Seal War.
-The Adventure of Link backstory takes place after Phantom Hourglass with the discovery of a New Hyrule.
-Freshly Picked: Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland's inclusion of places with familiar names [Lon Lon Meadows, Mountain of Death] shows that areas previously only in a "dry" Hyrule can exist post-flood.
-Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link were always meant to be the immediate prequels to the Oracles, and nothing suggests that has changed.
-Link's Awakening was originally intended to be after A Link to the Past, but may possibly also be after the Oracles. Since the whole game was a dream it has no timeline relevance, and as implied by Shigeru Miyamoto, it is neither clear nor important where it belongs.

Nittles's current timeline:

---------------------tWW/PH -- AoL BS -- FS/FSA -- LoZ/AoL[/]OoX/LA
---------------------/
AoL BS -- tMC -- OoT
---------------------\
----------------------MM -- TP -- SW -- ALttP

Miscellaneous
-Light Arrows are not the same as Silver Arrows. Light Arrows only have the power to weaken the defenses of evil, Silver Arrows are the only thing that can kill Ganon.
-The Sages [Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess], Shrine Maidens [Four Swords Adventures], and Maidens [A Link to the Past], all perform similar duties, but slowly decreased in power over time.
-When referring to Sages and other spiritual leaders, the term "descendant" is not necessarily a blood relation, but a successor.
-Farore is the Goddess of Time.

I'm considering a number of timelines as potentially valid at the moment:

OoT/MM-TP
OoT-TWW/PH
and
LoZ/AoL-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
or FS/FSA-LoZ/AoL-ALttP/LA
or FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-LoZ/AoL
or ALttP/LA-FS/FSA-LoZ/AoL
(with any of these orders possibly following TWW or TP)

TMC can go before OoT and OoX can go anytime after Ganon is dead.

FS/FSA-LoZ/AoL-ALttP/LA

Trust me, I've tried and it doesn't work.

ALttP/LA-FS/FSA-LoZ/AoL

.......no. Just no. Period.

TMC can go before OoT and OoX can go anytime after Ganon is dead.

And called Daimao.



The way I see it:

OoT-TWW/PH-(LoZ/AoL-)OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA(-LoZ/AoL)
OoT/MM-TP

or

TMC-OoT-TWW/PH
TMC-OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoX-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA

FSA-LoZ-ALttP simply DOES NOT work.

Updated my veiws on OoX and LoZ.

I'm thoughroly stumped on where to place either of them.

Pinecove, if you now accept AST as canon, you must now also accept Densetsu is canon, meaning Ganon has the Trident in LoZ, meaning your second timeline there doesn't work.

...why would it not work?

Also I consider ASt SEMI Canon.

Why semi? There's no reason for it not to be canon now. Also, semi-canon is silly. That's like saying something is semi-dead. Either it is canon, or it isn't. You haven't levels of canon-ness, or something being canoner than something else.

Sure you can.

FPTRRL doesn't have to be included in a timeline, but it helps...also what were you going to say?

Nah, that's just canon, but not relevant. FPTRR is canon, it definitely happened in the established Zelda universe, it just isn't relevant. There's a difference between canon and relevant. AST is canon - it definitely happens, but isn't relevant - it affects bugger all.

Densetsu is canon, meaning Ganon has the Trident in LoZ, meaning your second timeline there doesn't work.

Densetsu? You mean BS LoZ?

I'd agree it is canon, but it isn't accurate. BS LoZ takes place in a fake dream world created by the fortune teller.

Who the hell told you that? It's a remake. It actually happens.