Personal Views on Points of Controversy II

I told Erimgard/Erimlark that I'd repost my beliefs in this new thread. So here they are:

1) In game evidence is the highest evidence. Sometimes it can be debatable what the in game stuff means, but if it's stated in the games then that's how it is.

2) Things retconned in remakes override other things. Like the changes made in ALttP.

3) The prophesy stated in ALttP, that speaks about aLttP Link being a member of a bloodline of knights, only petains to that game. Not the entire series.

4) Ganondorf and Ganon are the same individual.

5) Ganondorf in FSA is a reincarnation of OoT Ganondorf. Much like Link and zelda are at times reincarnated.

6) Red hair and dark complexion is evidence of Gerudo leniage. People that show one or both these things are likely part or full Gerudo.

7) The inclusion of force gems in PH points towards an AT placement for the FS series.

8) Force Gems are likely as solid form of Light Force. I am open to the belief that the Triforce is three divine Force Gems. I don't think that the Triforce plays any role in TMC, though. Zelda's Light Force abundance is not because of the ToW.

9) Swiftblade the First is the Hero of Men.

10) Kokiri are spirits, which explains why they never grow up, and why they can assume different forms. They did not evolve into Koroks, but merely took on other forms.

11) When Zelda sent Link back in time at the end of OoT, he was sent back after meeting her and opening the Door of Time. When he returned the sword, Ganondorf was already in the SR.

12) The use of geography can play a role in timeline placement. This is a major reason why I believe FSA comes close to ALttP. We can also tell that TP comes close to OoT partly because of geographical similarities.

13) Twinrova in OoX is canon, due to the fact that they are the masterminds behind the entire story. I once used it to explain a child timeline placement of OoX, but there is more evidence pointing to an AT placement. I still think the are canon, though.

I'm about out of time to post. I'll update when I think of other things.

I came up with something new (to me, anyway). It will remain in this thread as it may be controversial, but I wonder what would happen if I make a thread about it.

Where in your post is this new issue located?

I've got some more stuff. A couple of small, personal theories.

I believe that the Great War spoken of in OoT and the banishment of the interlopers mentioned in TP is the same event.

I also believe that the Oracles are prophets sent by the Godesses to spread the word. Their powers may be given by the Godesses so they can perform miracles.

There isn't much evidence pointing towards these beliefs, but I like to believe it.

I believe that agahnim in ALttP is part of Ganon. He performed a soul split in order to escape the seal the sages cast, and the other half became Agahnim.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Where in your post is this new issue located?

OoT - The Mask Sidequest is Canon

The Happy Mask Salesman in OoT & MM (supports the above)

Sharp and Flat(composse brothers) are hylian not sheikah.

Updated some stuff...

Updated some stuff.

Also, in AST, as far as I've played, Zelda doesn't seem to remember who Link is, she just knows someone who looked like the hero in AST saved her. It doesn't seem ALttP Link cannot be OoX Link so far from what I've seen.

We'll here I go. Erimgard: I'm using yours as a model. If I agree with you on something, and I can't think of a better way to rephrase it, then I'll leave it as you had it. I hope you don't mind.

I'm Matt. Mjr162006 is the username I had to use here.
Matt's Personal Views on Points of Controversy
Last Updated: November 17, 2008
Game Specific Topics

The Legend of Zelda

• The Magical Sword is not the Master Sword.

The Adventure of Link

• The Adventure of Link Hyrule is a region north of The Legend of Zelda Hyrule.

A Link to the Past

• The GBA version, and the changes made in it, are more canon than the SNES version.
• The Swamp Maiden's speech about Ganondorf not being able to leave the Sacred Realm is a reference to Four Swords AdventuresGanon, not the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf, the one from the Seal War.
• Ganondorf, the current one, and not -Ganon split his soul in order to escape the Seal prior to A Link to the Past.
• Ganon's soul-split possessed Agahnim.
• Agahnim was an ideal target for Ganon, as he was an evil priest.
• When Agahnim died, Ganon's soul-split left his body and returned to Ganon.
• The Palace of the Four Sword is canon.

Link's Awakening

• While starting as a dream, Koholint Island became a real place. And it vanished once the Wind Fish awoke.

Ocarina of Time

• Sharp and Flat were Sheikah.
• The Sheikah used Gossip Stones to spy on the various races of Hyrule
• The Desert Colossus is not representing Din.
• Kaepora Gaebora is not Rauru.
• In the ending, Link was sent back to a point after he had left the forest, but before he had met Zelda.
• Child Link was twelve years old. Making Adult Link nineteen

Majora's Mask

• Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule.
• Skull Kid is the same one who you play Saria's Song for, and sell a mask to, in Ocarina of Time.
• The Giants are counterparts to Twilight Princess's Light Spirits.
• The inside of the Moon is a physical manifestation of Skull Kid's psyche.
• The Stone Tower was built as a defiance to the Goddesses of Hyrule, who the people associated with the despised Skull Kid.

Oracle of Seasons/Ages

• The games can be played in either order without major effects to the storyline, but Ages-Seasons is the more canon order.
• The Master Sword in these games is just another sword. And is not the Sword of Evil's Bane.
• Link is the same Link as featured in A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening.
• Jabu Jabu is a descendant of Ocarina of Time's Jabu Jabu.
• The linked game and ending are canon.
• Link's Awakening immediately follows these games.

The Wind Waker

• Prior to The Wind Waker, Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm Seal without breaking it.
• Ganon's escape of the Sacred Realm Seal is left unexplained, and will likely never be explained. As Hylian text states, "he was revived for no reason".
• The Kokiri, as spirits, did not technically "evolve", but instead, took on a new form, and became the Koroks.
• Some of the Zoras evolved into Rito, some of them became "fierce Zoras", and others migrated out of The Wind Waker's territory to other places, such as Labrynna.
• Daphnes's mention of the "laws of the past" are a reference to Zelda's duty as the Princess to protect the Triforce of Wisdom from evil.
• Daphnes's wish sent the Triforce back to the Sacred Realm.
• Ganon's physical body was destroyed in the ending, but his spirit remained in tact.

Four Swords Adventures

• The Dark Mirror is the Mirror of Twilight, but on a different timeline.
• The Dark World of Four Swords Adventures is not the corrupted Sacred Realm like in A Link to the Past, but instead, the Twilight Curtain.
• Shadow Links are Twili brought forth by the Dark Mirror, and corrupted by Ganon's evil power, manifested physically into a representation of evil: the opposite of Link.

The Minish Cap

• -Link's obtaining of the hat is not indication of timeline placement, but an explanation of how this particular Link and his descendants came to wear hats after a time period in which heroes apparently did not wear hats [as evidenced by the depictions of the Hero of Men].
• The "Triumph Forks" book is a cameo.
• The book entitled "History of Hyrule" is not a cameo, and very well may be the story being referenced in the SNES A Link to the Past manual.
• Vaati dies in the end, and therefore, must have been resurrected prior to Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures.

Twilight Princess

• The state of the Triforce in Twilight Princess is the result of the Goddesses [being outside of the influence of the split timeline] granting the rightful owners their Triforce pieces regardless of the timeline.
• The sages believe Ganondorf's Triforce of Power acquisition to be a "divine prank" because he never touched the Triforce.
• Ganondorf's "god complex" in Twilight Princess is the result of having a Triforce piece without touching the Triforce combined with surviving an execution attempt.
• Geography differences from Ocarina of Time due to actions that Ganondorf had taken in the child line before being caught.
• The Temple of Time is the same one from Ocarina of Time.
• Ganondorf and Zant became soulbound to each other.
• Ganon may is still alive in spirit.
• The state of the Triforce of Power in the ending is unknown.

Phantom Hourglass

• The Realm of the Ocean King is an extension of the Great Sea.
• Similarly to the Wind Fish's ability to create things in a physical world by dreaming, the Ocean King has the power to change/warp a physical things in the physical world to the point of it being nearly another dimension, though dreams are not required.
• The six sages that have graves in Phantom Hourglass are the Sages from Ocarina of Time, barring Zelda.
• The fact that Link and Zelda were only gone for 10 minutes is explained by the fact that Link retains the [now empty] Phantom Hourglass: They were returned to their world and time by the power of the Ocean King and the Phantom Hourglass.

Non-Game Specific Topics

The Fierce, Prolonged Wars

• The bloodshed amongst the people spoken about in A Link to the Past and Twilight Princess are the same set of events.
• These events predate Ocarina of Time.
• Sometime during these wars is when a group of magic wielders [The Dark Interlopers] rose to power.
• The magic wielders are were made up of members of various tribes, and are not all of the same tribe, nor are they any entire tribe.
• This is when [as stated earlier] the Gossip Stones were used by the Sheikah to spy on various peoples and races.
• The Shadow Temple shows that the Sheikah had ways of dealing with any who were not loyal to the Royal Family.
• The unifying of Hyrule by the King prior to Ocarina of Time marks the end of these wars.
• All of the major tribes except for the Gerudos formed an alliance at this time.

The Adventure of Link Backstory/Manual

• The King had the complete Triforce.
• The Sleeping Zelda incident and the hiding of the Triforce of Courage are in a chronologically close proximity.
• Zelda's title of "first generation/founder" could refer to her as being the first Zelda in the New Hyrule.
• The secret that the Princess knew was the location of the Triforce of Courage.
• The writer of the scroll is the King.

The A Link to the Past Manual

• -The Nintendo of America SNES manual for A Link to the Past is not canon, as it is overwhelmingly full of mistranslations and censorships.
• -The Japanese SNES manual for A Link to the Past is semi-canon, as it is the story off of which Ocarina of Time was based.
• Inaccuracies between the Japanese SNES manual and the actual story of Ocarina of Time can mostly be explained by the fact that in-game we are told these events have become obscured by the mists of time.
• The GBA manual for A Link to the Past is the more canon one, as it places the emphasis back on the Seal, specifies that the Triforce never left the Sacred Realm prior to the Seal War, and removes any indication that the Ganon of A Link to the Past was involved in the Seal War.

The Minish Cap Manual/Backstory

• The Minish Cap backstory could possibly predate Ocarina of Time. But not because of the hat thing.
• The Hero of Men is not any character have yet seen. But can be a Link in an upcoming game.
• The Picori Blade is not the Master Sword or any other previously seen sword.
• The Light Force is not a piece of the Triforce and has nothing to do with the Triforce at all..

The Seal/Imprisoning War

• The Seal War cannot happen at a time after the Triforce has left the Sacred Realm.
• The Seal War is the first time evil flowed from the Sacred Realm.
• The Seal War, in its entirety, is the events of the adult side of Ocarina of Time.
• Ganon was removed from the GBA telling of the Seal War, because the Ganon involved in the Seal War [Ocarina of Time Ganon] is no longer living.
• The Ganon we see in-game in A Link to the Past is the result of Four Swords Adventures Ganon taking on Seal War Ganon's soul. He is a different physical entity bearing the same spirit.
• Though Four Swords Adventures, and the events which inevitably follow it, set the stage for A Link to the Past, it is in no way part of, or related to, the Seal War.
• All in-game references to Ganon in A Link to the Past are describing the current Ganon, Four Swords Adventures Ganon, and not Seal War Ganon.
• As indicated by the Swamp Maiden, some time in between Four Swords Adventures and A Link to the Past, Ganon entered the Sacred Realm and could not find a way back out. This event is independent of the Seal War, and takes place long after the Seal War. Ganon could not find a way out.

Force

• Life force is similar to a soul, and everyone has it.
• Force gems are crystalized life force.
• The Light Force is a powerful concentration of life force. Since The Minish Cap says it came from the sky, it is quite possibly the life force of the Goddesses.
• As the "essence of the gods", the Triforce is very similar to three powerful force gems.
• Though the Triforce and the Light Force are not the same item, they are likely made of the same substance.

Timeline

• Ocarina of Time causes a timeline split, with games coming after both of its endings.These two timelines are called the "Adult Timeline" and the "Child Timeline".
• The time period when Hyrule was "a beautiful land surrounded by forests and mountains" references the age of Ocarina of Time.
• Ocarina of Time is the Seal War in its entirety.
• A Link to the Past was always meant to be the immediate prequel to the Oracles, and nothing suggests that has changed.
• The Oracle of Ages past section of the game takes place after The Minish Cap, but before Four Swords and Four SwordsAdventures
• Link's Awakening was originally intended to be after A Link to the Past, but was retconned to be after the Oracles.

Matt's current timeline:

I have three actually. I can't decide which one is best. See My Timeline on Zelda Wiki.org

Miscellaneous

• Light Arrows are not the same as Silver Arrows. But the both only have the power to weaken the defenses of evil. They just accomplish this in different ways.
• When referring to Sages and other spiritual leaders, the term "descendant" is not necessarily a blood relation, but a successor.
• Farore is the Goddess of Time.

Originally Posted by Smertios

What happened to the original thread??

I wasted about an hour writing down my views when the computer crashed, i'll come back to it later...

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/...ntroversy.html

Wasn't sure what my veiws on the AoL BS are so I wiped the entire section clean...

Updated 06 Dec 2008.

Check it.

I decided to update.

-The light force from MC is one golden force gem (like the ones from PH), one of these golden force gems have the capacity to enpowered the picori sword to defeat the evil.(like 2,000 normal force gems from other colors in FS).

=


-The light arrows,force gems, tears of light and the triforce contains the essence/power/life force of the godesses. each of them in a lesser or greater dimension.

-Sharp and flat(the composse brothers) surely were hylians.

-The royal family have two diferent emblems/symbols.
The old one is the emblem/symbol of the crossed swords: that we can see in snowpeak mansion,in one pillar of hyrule castle in OOT, and behaind the king's thone iand one pillar of hyrule castle in ALTTP:


The new one:


*The royal family starts to use the new one after the light spirit give him the task to take care of the triforce and the sacred realm.

-The sacred realm in ancient times haven't theire own dimension/realm, the sacred realm in ancient times when people live at ease was known as the sacred lands,i mean the triforce was in hyrule, the goddesses left the triforc ein some point of hyrule, after the interlopers atack the sacred lands of hyrule obtain theire own dimension/realm and became officialy the SR, the sages and the oocca built the temple of time and the temple of light to guard the entrance to the SR and guard the triforce.

-Each triforce piece have transformation powers:
*Triforce of power allow ganondorf to became a big pig beast.
*Triforce of wisdom allow ganondorf to became sheik.
*Triforce of courage allow link to became a wolf.

Later i will post more.

I retract my entire Sleeping Zelda and AoL scroll writer theory, as the primary basis for it doesn't exist in the Japanese text of TWW.

Really... then does that mean your AoL BS is in the same place as where we put it?

I don't have a complete timeline right now, either.
(goes and edits)

Wha-... What's bugging you?

Wait, so Lex has given up on his AoL BS? Crap I gotta do some editing on my AoL BS article that I just made.

There is insufficient story-related proof that LoZ and AoL are directly connected to TWW. I had thought that TWW was the one instance in which the Triforce was in the hands of the royal family but it seems to have been left for them in AST.