the mastersword in the oracles and my dead brain

So, since it is now more hip to accept the mastersword as canon in OoX. I feel that we need to figure out which ways of getting the master sword make sense and which ones don't.:3
Look I made giant charts that will take ages to load (hopefully not)
You might want to read the colored explanation below first.
OoS->OoA



OoA->Oos



Links in case the two pictures don't show up for some people
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/k...abelleOoX1.jpg
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/k...abelleOoX2.jpg
You might have noticed that I’m talking about the white sword instead of the noble sword. White sword is the Japanese original name and corresponds to LoZ and tMC.

A more detailed account of the trading sequences and Password secrets:

Password:
After finishing his adventure in Holodrum Link travels to Labrynna were he meets an old hag that will give him a secret (password) that she asks him to tell to an old man in Holodrum. He travels back to Holodrum and finds the old man which will give him a trial. After Link passes the trial, the old man will empower your current sword. It’s either:

- wooden sword empowered into white sword (lol wut?)
Or
- white sword empowered into master sword (which is similar to the events of WW were we have to repower the master sword through sages)


Password:
After finishing his adventure in Labrynna Link travels to Holodrum were he meets a Zora that seeks new habitats for his kinsmen. He asks you to report his findings to King Zora in Labrynna. After telling King Zora the secret, he will be greatfull and sharpen your current sword. It’s either:

- wooden sword sharpened into white sword (lol wut ? once again)
Or
-white sword sharpened into master sword

Password:
After you got your sword upgrade from King Zora/the old man, he will tell you a secret to transfer this upgrade to the other land. You have to tell this secret to Farore to receive the item you have just earned in the other game.
To me this Password is just a game mechanism, since it’s basically is just saying that Link takes a certain item with him to Labrynna/Holodrum after he got it in Holodrum/Labrynna.

Trading sequence (OoA):
After completing the trading sequence a Zora elder will give you a broken sword an comment on the fact that it has been handed to the Zoras by a great hero (a former Link?).
When the sword is repaired through Patch(the guy living at the restoration wall) it will wither turn into the white sword (if your current sword is the wooden sword) or the master sword (if your current sword is the white sword)

Trading sequence (OoS):
After completing the trading sequence, a Deku will explain a secret way in the lost woods to you. This way leads to a small pedestal with a sword stuck in it. This sword is the master or the white sword, depending on your current sword.
It should however be noted that the hilt does not look like the typical master sword hilt, making it more likely that this is supposed to be the white sword.

So here is a long story short.
If the master sword is canon in OoX , the two most cohesive ways (because they avoid having two master swords) to get it are:

OoA->OoS:
The master sword is broken and in the hands of a Zora elder, after being repaired into the white sword it is sharpened by King Zora into the master sword.
A different white sword is found in the lost woods in Holodrum. It might be connected to the four sword, since the depowered version of the four sword is also named white sword.

OoS->OoA:
The master sword is found as the white sword in the lost woods and is then empowered into the master sword by an old man. (A sage?)
A different white sword is given to you by the Zora elder in Labrynna. It is most likely connected to the four sword, since it is mentioned to have been used by a former hero and the depowered version of the four sword is also called white sword.

(This ends the informative part, what follows are some of my toughts that are not very ordered yet)

This also makes OoA->OoS the order which is more appropriate if you want to explain the return of the master sword from the bottom of the sea after WW trough the Zora. Although that creates a problem anyway, since the Zora elder mentions that the sword was given to the Zora by a former hero.
It also creates a time span of 400 years were the master sword is completely absent. One might think that LoZ and AoL are perfect for that gap, but since the white sword is present in LoZ it makes things a bit iffy.
Although this is not such a big problem, since there seem to be two noble swords anyway.

What's worse is that OoA past marks the invention of flippers (and water proof rope to make rafts, which suggest that it happens before WW since we see rafts during that time, although the developers might not have thought about that) making it very unlikely for games that feature flippers to come before OoA past.

The whole raft-rope thing makes it more likely that OoA past is before WW, and to be honest to me OoA past really looks like it is way back in the past, pretty primitive.
So now we might consider something like OoA-past-->OoT-->WW/PH-->OoA present. But wait, only 400 years to cover OoT and WW (and the hundreds of years in between them)?
And I don’t even want to think about this works with the split...

So what about:
OoT-->OoA-past-->WW/PH-->OoA
400 years are still a bit too few hundreds to fit with WW but what the hell.

Either way this creates a clash with the fact that the master sword/white sword has been removed from existence between OoA past and OoA present (If we played OoA->OoS).
So is OoA->OoS non-canon after all? My head hurts. This flippers and raft stuff is bigger then I thought.
I think it’s really important to think about when OoA past happens in comparison to the other games.

I feel a tl,dr aproaching...

I actually read it!

I'm kinda confused. You can get the Noble sword twice? I thought the noble sword in the 2nd is replaced by the MS.

About the past thing. There is more water in the past of OoA. It could happen sometime before TWW, but the lands seem a bit too big to happen that soon after the flood.
Where do we see raft's in TWW? I thought everyone had a boat.

Originally Posted by Skylark

I actually read it!

Yay.

I'm kinda confused. You can get the Noble sword twice? I thought the noble sword in the 2nd is replaced by the MS.

Yes each in one game, and the worst part is that some of the ways to get the master sword end up with a story were both of these white swords are sharpened/empowered into a master sword.
Even in the linked game you have to go through the following order to get the master sword:
wooden sword (your starting sword in both the unlinked and linked game)-->white sword-->master sword.
But I don't think that two white swords are a big problem, two different mastersword would however be ...strange...

About the past thing. There is more water in the past of OoA. It could happen sometime before TWW, but the lands seem a bit too big to happen that soon after the flood.

Yeah it's strange that the land is so large, but if this whole talk about the water proof rope and the rafts is to be taken seriously then it has to come at least shortly before WW. But I'm pretty positive that it has to come before tMC, because tMC features flippers (OoT, WW and PH do not feature flippers ,or do they?)

Where do we see raft's in TWW? I thought everyone had a boat.

Most notably the Goron merchants, but some Bokoblins also use rafts...

[QUOTE=bitterlime;2370686]

Yay.

tl:dr that quote

Yes each in one game, and the worst part is that some of the ways to get the master sword end up with a story were both of these white swords are sharpened/empowered into a master sword.
Even in the linked game you have to go through the following order to get the master sword:
wooden sword (your starting sword in both the unlinked and linked game)-->white sword-->master sword.
But I don't think that two white swords are a big problem, two different mastersword would however be ...strange...

Well there is nothing special about the noble swords, but you only can get the MS once per play through right? You can't get it without linking the games and getting it in the 2nd game. (then you get it in the first with a password, which doesn't really count does it?)

Yeah it's strange that the land is so large, but if this whole talk about the water proof rope and the rafts is to be taken seriously then it has to come at least shortly before WW. But I'm pretty positive that it has to come before tMC, because tMC features flippers (OoT, WW and PH do not feature flippers ,or do they?)

Most notably the Goron merchants, but some Bokoblins also use rafts...

Well we could assume that labrynna is pretty high up compared to other places. Place it near the start of the flood and we will be fine....maybe.

Originally Posted by Skylark

tl:dr that quote

;O;

Well there is nothing special about the noble swords, but you only can get the MS once per play through right? You can't get it without linking the games and getting it in the 2nd game. (then you get it in the first with a password, which doesn't really count does it?)

Yes you need to link them, then you get the password from the other game, go back to your first game to upgrade your sword, and then you receive a password to get it in your second game.
It's the second game were you get it with the "Farore password" which might not count or could be interpreted as Link simpy carrying his items over to the other land.
Let's take a look at OoS first. You do the trading sequence and get the white sword, then to beat the game and get the password from OoA. You return to OoS and receive the master sword through the password.
Back in OoA you usethe Farore password you got in OoS (after upgrading your sword with the password) and get the white sword in OoA.Finally you get mastersword (or rather your second master sword, because you already got one in OoS) from the Zora elder (trading sequence).
What a mess... and that's only one of the stories that end with two master swords. The only one that seems to avoid two masterswords is the third possibility in both charts.

Well we could assume that labrynna is pretty high up compared to other places. Place it near the start of the flood and we will be fine....maybe.

That could work especially since there is a eyeglass island at Labrynnas coast, which is obviously a reference to spectacle rock. The two places are even in the same spot if Labrynna is really western AoL Hyrule.

Hey gais, gais! Why aren't you in the thread I made? Hey gais! Gais! I built you a thread, safe from...



I just wanted a way to quote that somehow.

Now let me go back and read the thread.

[QUOTE=bitterlime;2370749];O;

Yes you need to link them, then you get the password from the other game, go back to your first game to upgrade your sword, and then you receive a password to get it in your second game.
It's the second game were you get it with the "Farore password" which might not count or could be interpreted as Link simpy carrying his items over to the other land.
Let's take a look at OoS first. You do the trading sequence and get the white sword, then to beat the game and get the password from OoA. You return to OoS and receive the master sword through the password.
Back in OoA you usethe Farore password you got in OoS (after upgrading your sword with the password) and get the white sword in OoA.Finally you get mastersword (or rather your second master sword, because you already got one in OoS) from the Zora elder (trading sequence).
What a mess... and that's only one of the stories that end with two master swords. The only one that seems to avoid two masterswords is the third possibility in both charts.

I think I liked it better when everyone ignored the MS. Though I don't think it is the right thing to do.

That could work especially since there is a eyeglass island at Labrynnas coast, which is obviously a reference to spectacle rock. The two places are even in the same spot if Labrynna is really western AoL Hyrule.

Hmm, something to think about, that's for sure.
Is it any larger in the present than the past?

Wow. I don't know very much about the situation, but that was a very good analysis. It makes it easy to decide which problems we want to sacrifice and which ones we don't.

I'm still pretty undecided on the Oracles' order, but this has helped me a bit.

It'll take me awhile to think over everything I read, but I'll make a real reply once I have.

Originally Posted by Ollathir

Hey gais, gais! Why aren't you in the thread I made? Hey gais! Gais! I built you a thread, safe from...



I just wanted a way to quote that somehow.

Now let me go back and read the thread.

I whish your thread wouldn't be so long by now, I have to read through so much to catch up with it.;_;

Originally Posted by Skylark

I think I liked it better when everyone ignored the MS. Though I don't think it is the right thing to do.

To be honest I also prefered the time when it was considered a cameo. My brain really did die when I made those pictures in the first post, the master sword in OoX is a mess.-_-

Hmm, something to think about, that's for sure.
Is it any larger in the present than the past?

Sadly the island is still a island in the present, and not a mountain if that's what you were hoping for.
I'm pretty positive that it keeps it's size.

[QUOTE=bitterlime;2370782]I whish your thread wouldn't be so long by now, I have to read through so much to catch up with it.;_;

To be honest I also prefered the time when it was considered a cameo. My brain really did die when I made those pictures in the first post, the master sword in OoX is a mess.-_-

Yes, the :mock: from my albums was used! Bitterlime, you earn a +1 win.

Sadly the island is still a island in the present, and not a mountain if that's what you were hoping for.
I'm pretty positive that it keeps it's size.

Well if they are the same place, only flooded. It would actually hint on OoX-Loz-Aol. Which when I am done with my time travel research I might have a theory on that.
However Nintendo/capcom might just have a think for glasses.

Originally Posted by Skylark

Yes, the :mock: from my albums was used! Bitterlime, you earn a +1 win.

Your albums is actualy the first place I go when I need a :mock:!

Well if they are the same place, only flooded. It would actually hint on OoX-Loz-Aol. Which when I am done with my time travel research I might have a theory on that.

Yeah, that might be a possibility. The island is however not volcanic or something like that, it's the place were the ancient libary is located. But the place is pretty much in the death mountain range if Labrynna is western AoL Hyrule.

However Nintendo/capcom might just have a think for glasses.

Especially since they give us a eye-glass lake in OoS.

Clearly OoX would be the easiest linked game ever if they let you transfer your Noble Sword from the first game; clearly it would also be the most broken game ever if they didn't give you an opportunity to get another in the second game.

Doesn't mean there are two Noble/White Swords; just that there are four ways to get it between the first and the linked game. From a storyline standpoint, only one of them need actually happen.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Your albums is actualy the first place I go when I need a :mock:!

Yeah, that might be a possibility. The island is however not volcanic or something like that, it's the place were the ancient libary is located. But the place is pretty much in the death mountain range if Labrynna is western AoL Hyrule.

Especially since they give us a eye-glass lake in OoS.

Win

Hmm, I guess it makes sense to build a library on top of an old lair for the king of evil...wut?

n Clearly OoX would be the easiest linked game ever if they let you transfer your Noble Sword from the first game; clearly it would also be the most broken game ever if they didn't give you an opportunity to get another in the second game.

Doesn't mean there are two Noble/White Swords; just that there are four ways to get it between the first and the linked game. From a storyline standpoint, only one of them need actually happen.

True, maybe we can just choose one of the noble swords as the "canon" one and write the other off as a gameplay mechanic.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Clearly OoX would be the easiest linked game ever if they let you transfer your Noble Sword from the first game; clearly it would also be the most broken game ever if they didn't give you an opportunity to get another in the second game.

Ofcourse.

Doesn't mean there are two Noble/White Swords; just that there are four ways to get it between the first and the linked game. From a storyline standpoint, only one of them need actually happen.

This is excactly what I'm getting at, only one of them has to happen, and quite fittingly only one of them really makes sense in the first place.

By the way what's your take on OoA past and the raft/flippers stuff?

Originally Posted by Skylark

True, maybe we can just choose one of the noble swords as the "canon" one and write the other off as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't get why we should have to, we have two white swords in the canon anyway:
-the one in OoX that will become the mastersword
-the picori sword during it's reforging process into the 4 sord

unless we want to support MS=FS, there are allready two white swords.

The raft is a link to LoZ/AoL, nothing more. Although it may be possible that it indicates OoX being before LoZ... EDIT: or just OoA's past being before LoZ, rather.

Now that I think on it, though, LoZ/AoL's Hyrule really makes no sense after OoX, as the idea is that the northern continents are still the 'new land,' while OoX seems to depict the former 'new lands' as Holodrum and Labrynna with Hyrule where it used to be, south of Death Mountain.

Originally Posted by Skylark

True, maybe we can just choose one of the noble swords as the "canon" one and write the other off as a gameplay mechanic.

It doesn't matter which is canon and which is not, although I prefer to think Link took the White Sword from the pedestal in OoS and King Zora sharpened it in OoA to become the Master Sword. This is one of those particulars that is really up to preference, as the games are clearly able to be finished through multiple avenues without any effect on the final outcome.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

The raft is a link to LoZ/AoL, nothing more. Although it may be possible that it indicates OoX being before LoZ... EDIT: or just OoA's past being before LoZ, rather.

Now that I think on it, though, LoZ/AoL's Hyrule really makes no sense after OoX, as the idea is that the northern continents are still the 'new land,' while OoX seems to depict the former 'new lands' as Holodrum and Labrynna with Hyrule where it used to be, south of Death Mountain.

I don't know if you got the problem, OoA marks the invention of the rope that is used to make rafts. Rafts are in WW, so OoA past should have to be before WW. If this is the case that renders OoA-->OoS non-canon since you remove the mastersword from the timeline for 400 years. The 400 years WW have to take place in.
Do you think the developers just forgot that the raft was invented in OoA past when they made WW?

It doesn't matter which is canon and which is not, although I prefer to think Link took the White Sword from the pedestal in OoS and King Zora sharpened it in OoA to become the Master Sword. This is one of those particulars that is really up to preference, as the games are clearly able to be finished through multiple avenues without any effect on the final outcome.

Actually that's my favourit at the moment too, it's also one of the versions that makes the most sense.

Is it me or you missed some stuff?
1) The Zora elder only sharpen your blade if you play OoA-OoS.
2) You forgot the old man behind the clock shop in Holodrum if you play OoS-OoA.
3) The Zora King doesnt sharpen your blade, he gives you a broken sword.

You really did a great job with your charts, but read my last post in Secrets explained and taly-ho just to be sure.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I whish your thread wouldn't be so long by now, I have to read through so much to catch up with it.;_;

Basically, right now we're debating over what's wrong with each placement of LoZ and AoL. There are things I don't see as problems that Skylark and Lex do, and we're trying to come to a concencses on what's a roblem and what isn't. You could jump in by posting lists of problems with each placement and we would go from there. Don't feel like you have to read the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Adameus

Is it me or you missed some stuff?
1) The Zora elder only sharpen your blade if you play OoA-OoS.

I'm pretty sure that he only gives you the broken game in both OoA-OoS and OoS-OoA. Skylark is currently replaying.
It is the Zora King that sharpens the blade and indeed that only happens in OoA-OoA. This event is described with the light blue Password in my chart.
And the light blue password only appears in the OoA-OoS chart.

2) You forgot the old man behind the clock shop in Holodrum if you play OoS-OoA.

The old man and the old hag sceario are described in the Password that I colored orange. It only apears in the OoS-OoA chart.
Can you see both charts? Because I get the feeling your only seeing the OoA->OoS chart.
I'll add links just in case one of the pictures doesn't show up.

3) The Zora King doesnt sharpen your blade, he gives you a broken sword.

No, it's the Zora King who sharpens the blade, the Zora elder gives you the broken sword after you give him the sea-ukulele from the trading quest.

You really did a great job with your charts, but read my last post in Secrets explained and taly-ho just to be sure.

The eight ways you describe are the same ways I'm decribing in my two charts (4 ways in each chart). The only thing you confused are the roles of the Zora King and the Zora elder.