Super Theorizing Brothers Brawl! (MUST READ!)

Knowing a lot of people don't quite know who to vote for best theorist in the upcoming awards, I figured we'd have a grand theorist battle on ZU before the awards kick off.

What this basically mean is that we have a bunch of theorists who are supposed to debate for their timeline of choice (prefferably their own... oh God, I'm gonna have a hard time surviving ). The catch is, in this thread, you don't talk about whether your theory is good or not from a neutral standpoint, but in contrast to another timeline theory.

tl;dr we're gonna have one timeline vs another vs another etc.


Welcome to...

Super Theorizing Brothers Brawl!

Let me explain the rules for this thread!

How to enter
You start out by making a simple post containing your timeline and a brief explanation. Put some effort on the parts you know will be debated.
eg:

Stupidtheorist11

OoT-MM---TP---tWW-PH---tMC-FS-FSA---ALttP-LA---LoZ-AoL---OoX

OoT starts off, then for the linear timeline, I see it that Ganondorf temporarily lost his memory and the ToC was magically given to Link in TP then scattered again for tWW. Then the FS Saga takes place....

(Of course, stupid theories will be ignored and then deleted by a mod)

What you do next
Then you choose whatever opponent you feel like (you can of course stand by for a while). Ask to debate and wait for your opponent to accept or decline. You can go against anyone you want, but please be reasonable. We don't want everyone going against one theory, try to make things balanced and make sure nobody's left alone. You can always change opponents once done with the first one.

Also, there's no real limit of people that can take part of one debate. You might do P1 vs P2 vs P3 in the same debate, but be reasonable and don't ask for more than you can handle. This also means that you may debate against two or more people at the same time in different debates (eg, P1 vs P2 + P1 vs P3) but again, be reasonable, please.

Rules for debating
1) We're supposed to support our own theories. That means no changing our timelines in the middle of the battle. If you admit there's something wrong with your timeline, you lost the battle. Please withdraw, make some changes and come back the next day (if you wish).
Observe: This does not mean that we can debate like ididots. Defend your timeline, but do so reasonably.

2) Only one person per timeline. That means, no one can step in and defend my timeline for me. If two persons have the same timeline, then both may participate, but both must debate individually. Two people with the same timeline cannot debate against eachother.

3) Anyone (even if they're not formally in the brawl) may step in and oppose someone elses timeline (however, doing it too much is not to be recommended). But nobody may defend someone elses timeline.

eg:

Allowed - But how do you justify using CDi zelda as canon games?
Not allowed - He was just saying that the hat makes sense, not that it's proof.

The end of a debate
You and your opponent decide when to call it quits. Once you've decided that you've debated enough, announce that and move on.

Other stuff
Remember, this is a debate to determine not only who's timeline's the best (which is very much in the eye of the beholder) but also to determine who is the best theoriser (which is also very much in the eye of the beholder). There will be no official winners or losers. Rather, this is a show for everyone who haven't decided who to vote for. Also, it's gonna be a lot of fun. Don't forget that

There will be a poll added to this thread soon enough, where you can vote on which timeline (and theorist) you support. The reason why you support that timeline/theorist doesn't matter. It's up to you to decide what/who you like best for whatever reason. But don't forget to vote when the official awards start. This is just a game

And this thread will be watched by the great mod Daphnes. So spam etc will be taken care of immideately.


With that, I wish you happy brawling and here's my first post:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hombre de Mundo - The Double ALttP Theory

....tWW- PH---tMC-FS-FSA---ALttP-LA
……/
OoT
…...\
…..MM---TP---LoZ-AoL---OoX---ALttP

- Basic split and all that, FS Saga post-WW because of refferences, precense of sea, etc.
- I justify two canon ALttP. Some major story changes were made in the GBA, enough to consider it its own.
- TP-LoZ mainly because of ToP state
- AoL---OoX because of Triforce state
And I want to challenge Erimgard first. I know he hasn't entered yet, but he will.

I might join, but I'd rather just critize other peoples than put my own in that's just the kinda person I am.

We should do this more often. This is gonna be awesome.

......TWW/PH---OoX---TMC---FS/FSA---ALttP/LA---LoZ/AoL
...../
OoT
.....\
......MM---TP

The CT is obvious.

TWW and PH follows OoT in the AT, and then OoX stands alone betwen PH and the Vaati Trilogy. FSA ties to ALttP, whose direct sequel is LA. LoZ and AoL end the AT, rather than being between PH and OoX, for reasons stated throughout this thread.

I challenge Skylark!

Awesome, time to test how much I have improved.

....../[TWW-PH]-[LoZ-AoL-OoX]-[MC]-[FS-FSA]-[ALttP-LA]
[OoT
......\MM]-[TP]

-LoZ is the signs of the Koroks success.
-OoX Link is the same as AoL Link due to the triforce mark.
-LoZ Ganon has the trident. FSA Ganondorf gets this trident and becomes the new Ganon
-The Aol backstory is split between pre OoT and pre LoZ.

I'm sure the Aol -OoX Link will be debated. As well as the AoL backstory.

I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE MAJORAMAN! Your "timline" shall be destroyed! Make the first move.

Originally Posted by Skylark

Awesome, time to test how much I have improved.

....../[TWW-PH]-[LoZ-AoL-OoX]-[MC]-[FS-FSA]-[ALttP-LA]
[OoT
......\MM]-[TP]

-LoZ is the signs of the Koroks success.
-OoX Link is the same as AoL Link due to the triforce mark.
-LoZ Ganon has the trident. FSA Ganondorf gets this trident and becomes the new Ganon

I'm sure the Aol -OoX Link will be debated.

I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLANGE MAJORAMAN! Your "timline" shall be destroyed! Make the first move.

Your "timeline" shall be destroyed! Very well, as the challenger, I will attack first!

LoZ is signs of the Korok's success

It wouldn't have to be LoZ. It could be any game featuring an island-based Hyrule. TMC seems more like a "stating over" game for Hyrule to me. I will now present my case for the expulsion of LoZ and AoL from your placement of them!

LoZ Ganon does not have the trident. Do you deny that games are more canon than their official art? I should hope not. The official art features a trident-weolding Ganon, but the game features a tridentless Ganon. If you believe that games are more canon than their official art, you must also believe that LoZ Ganon did not have the trident. You can only believe Ganon has the trident in LoZ if you accept a game's concept art as more canon than the game itself, and I know you don't feel that way. If you accept a game's official art as more canon than the game itself, you must also believe that Navi is actually blue, despite what we see in the game.

far right on the third row Hold your cursor over the picture of a fairy. A box will appear. Part of it says "navi.jpg"

If you believe LoZ Ganon has a trident, you believe that Navi is blue. That goes for everyone who says LoZ Ganon has the Trident. If you believe that, you believe in a blue Navi.

The point is, if we accepted a game's official art as more canon than what's in the game, we would believe some pretty ridiculous things. I used the example of a blue Navi, and that was a real example.

So, do you still believe official art is more canon than the game? The answer determines whether or not you believe Ganon has the trident in LoZ.

If he does, then there is no problem with him being Blue Ganon. If he doesn't, like I think, it means that having the trident is not what makes him Blue Ganon. Therefore, if I'm correct that he doesn't have the trident in LoZ, there must be another cause of him being Blue Ganon. The only explanation I can think of is that he became Blue Ganon when Twinrova resurrected him at the end of OoX. She used blue fire in the resurrection, and it seemed to be his soul. I think it makes sense that the resurrection is what turned him into Blue Ganon.

There are three ways to explain why Blue Ganon is in LoZ.

1)He has the trident. (ridiculous, as explained earlier)
2)It doesn't matter. That's just the way he is. (bad argument)
3)The resurrection be Twinrova and the use of the blue fire as his soul turned him into Blue Ganon. (would explain it well and constitute a post-OoX placement of LoZ and AoL, which would make sense, as there is another major problem with placing LoZ and AoL where you place them)

In LoZ, Ganon is called the King of Darkness. In FSA, Zelda thinks Vaati is the King of Darkness, meaning it has not yet been revealed who the King of Darkness is. So FSA, when we see the name "King of Darkness" given to Ganon, should be before the only other game where Ganon is the King of Darkness, LoZ. If LoZ were before FSA, Zelda from FSA would know who the King of Darkness was, but she didn't, so LoZ should be after FSA.

We have two main reasons LoZ and AoL shouldn't be where you place them.
1)Blue Ganon/trident
2)Ganon's title, "King of Darkness"

To me, both are significant arguments and indicate a post-ALttP placement of LoZ and AoL. If you see problems with my placement, point them out. If you disagree with my problems with your placement, defend yourself. I see nothing wrong with my placement, while yours has two gaping holes.

I stabbed. You'd better parry before my stab pierces your flabby gut.

Remember, it's all in good fun.

Originally Posted by Majoraman

If you believe LoZ Ganon has a trident, you believe that Navi is blue. That goes for everyone who says LoZ Ganon has the Trident. If you believe that, you believe in a blue Navi.

The point is, if we accepted a game's official art as more canon than what's in the game, we would believe some pretty ridiculous things. I used the example of a blue Navi, and that was a real example. Here. hold your cursor over the picture of Navi closer to the bottom of the screen. It says "navi.jpg" Look up a little bit, and you will see the progression, Home > Legend of Zelda > Ocarina of Time > Official Artwork. Just to prove I'm not lying.

You believe a slight coloring difference to be comparable to the blatant existence of an item?

What we see of Navi in the game is a ball of light with wings, yes? A ball of light isn't the easiest thing to depict in a drawing... especially if it has an already white background. I think Navi's blue tint is perfectly reasonable for conveying a ball of light.

Originally Posted by Psy

You believe a slight coloring difference to be comparable to the blatant existence of an item?

What we see of Navi in the game is a ball of light with wings, yes? A ball of light isn't the easiest thing to depict in a drawing... especially if it has an already white background. I think Navi's blue tint is perfectly reasonable for conveying a ball of light.

Wow.

Tell me, have you ever seen a blue fairy in one of the games? I thought not. My point is that the concept art should not be accepted as canon. If it were, we would all thing Navi is blue. You've proven me right be disagreeing with me. You used the version of Navi in the game to say that Navi does not canonically look like she does in the art. I could do the same thing and use the version of Ganon in LoZ to say that Ganon does not canonically have the trident like he does in the art.

Originally Posted by Majoraman

Your "timeline" shall be destroyed! Very well, as the challenger, I will attack first!

BRING IT!

It wouldn't have to be LoZ. It could be any game featuring an island-based Hyrule. TMC seems more like a "stating over" game for Hyrule to me. I will now present my case for the expulsion of LoZ and AoL from your placement of them!

Yes, but LoZ Hyrule specifies that it is a kingdom in need of restoration. The geography is also extremely similar to the oracles. Also LoZ-AoL are the only games that explain the triforce in OoX. Since I do know you place OoX before MC. Also MC has had a long line of Kings already, since the Hero of Men saved Hyrule.

LoZ Ganon does not have the trident. Do you deny that games are more canon than their official art? I should hope not. The official art features a trident-weolding Ganon, but the game features a tridentless Ganon. If you believe that games are more canon than their official art, you must also believe that LoZ Ganon did not have the trident. You can only believe Ganon has the trident in LoZ if you accept a game's concept art as more canon than the game itself, and I know you don't feel that way. If you accept a game's official art as more canon than the game itself, you must also believe that Navi is actually blue, despite what we see in the game.


If you believe LoZ Ganon has a trident, you believe that Navi is blue. That goes for everyone who says LoZ Ganon has the Trident. If you believe that, you believe in a blue Navi.

The point is, if we accepted a game's official art as more canon than what's in the game, we would believe some pretty ridiculous things. I used the example of a blue Navi, and that was a real example. Here. hold your cursor over the picture of Navi closer to the bottom of the screen. It says "navi.jpg" Look up a little bit, and you will see the progression, Home > Legend of Zelda > Ocarina of Time > Official Artwork. Just to prove I'm not lying.

But Navi is blue. Well, white center with large blue outline.
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/3/7...82f30029b0.jpg

Normally I would not consider art more cannon than a game. However I make an exception for LoZ because of graphical limitations. Back in that time, most story specific items were in the art and manual.

Also you say Aol and OoX Link can not be the same because of how old Link looks in AoL compared to OoX. He is only shown out of sprite form in official art.

So, do you still believe official art is more canon than the game? The answer determines whether or not you believe Ganon has the trident in LoZ.

already explained above.

If he does, then there is no problem with him being Blue Ganon. If he doesn't, like I think, it means that having the trident is not what makes him Blue Ganon. Therefore, if I'm correct that he doesn't have the trident in LoZ, there must be another cause of him being Blue Ganon. The only explanation I can think of is that he became Blue Ganon when Twinrova resurrected him at the end of OoX. She used blue fire in the resurrection, and it seemed to be his soul. I think it makes sense that the resurrection is what turned him into Blue Ganon.

Then why does Ganondorf in FSA become Blue Ganon? He is not the same as OoX Ganon. As he is said to be a Gerudo, and by the time we see him, he as gotten the trident and transformed.

In LoZ, Ganon is called the King of Darkness. In FSA, Zelda thinks Vaati is the King of Darkness, meaning it has not yet been revealed who the King of Darkness is. So FSA, when we see the name "King of Darkness" given to Ganon, should be before the only other game where Ganon is the King of Darkness, LoZ. If LoZ were before FSA, Zelda from FSA would know who the King of Darkness was, but she didn't, so LoZ should be after FSA.

Originally Posted by Deku Scrub

Everything's going swell
lately! And we have Ganon,
King of Darkness, to thank
Huh? Vaati?

What's that? No, Vaati's
old news. Ganon's the King
of Darkness! Forget Vaati!

Originally Posted by Red Maiden

Hm?
That writing on those
large rocks...

It's in an ancient tongue...
Let's see if I can read it.

... ... ...
Seek...you...the world?
Seek you...power?

Does your...soul...despise
peace and...thirst for...
more?

Does you soul...cry...
for...destruction and...
conquest?

We...grant you...power to
...ruin...the world. The
power of...darkness.

Evil...spirit of
magic trident.

You are...the...
King of Darkness.
... ... ...

Evil spirit... Spirit of magic?
Trident? This indentation is
in the shape of a weapon.

Do you think the person who
took this trident was...
Ganondorf?!?

The King of Darkness is
not Vaati?

Does this mean this wicked
man is somewhere in Hyrule
plotting even now?

Link! The situation is even
more desperate than I
believed!

We must hurry!

Originally Posted by Zelda

Ganon... This beast was once
of the Gerudo... Once human.
He was called Ganondorf!

King of Darkness, ancient
demon reborn. The wielder
of the trident!!

Originally Posted by Ganon

Gyaaaaaaa! What... What
have you done? I am the
King of Darkness!

Zelda might have thought Vaati was the King of darkness because no one knew of Ganon. Everyone thought Vaati was the one spreading the dark world around. The maiden's and zelda's quote implies that the King of darkness has existed before.

We have two main reasons LoZ and AoL shouldn't be where you place them.
1)Blue Ganon/trident
2)Ganon's title, "King of Darkness"

To me, both are significant arguments and indicate a post-ALttP placement of LoZ and AoL. If you see problems with my placement, point them out. If you disagree with my problems with your placement, defend yourself. I see nothing wrong with my placement, while yours has two gaping holes.

While the official art is complete opinion, I think I owned your point about the king of darkness.

I stabbed. You'd better parry before my stab pierces your flabby gut.

Remember, it's all in good fun.

How did you know I was overweight!? STALKER!

Yeah, this is fun. I parried and countered. Choose your next move wisely my friend.

Originally Posted by Skylark

BRING IT!

What, my own beer?

Yes, but LoZ Hyrule specifies that it is a kingdom in need of restoration. The geography is also extremely similar to the oracles. Also LoZ-AoL are the only games that explain the triforce in OoX. Since I do know you place OoX before MC. Also MC has had a long line of Kings already, since the Hero of Men saved Hyrule.

In need of restoration since Ganon ravaged it.
I have no clue what you're talking about with OoX. It takes place in either Labrynna or Holodrum, not Hyrule. What's geography got to do with it? I don't know how TMC having a long line of kings is supposed to help you.

But Navi is blue. Well, white center with large blue outline.

You and I both know she's more often yellow.

Normally I would not consider art more cannon than a game. However I make an exception for LoZ because of graphical limitations. Back in that time, most story specific items were in the art and manual.

"Graphical limitations!?!?!" Like 8 bits couldn't generate a trident. Gimme a break.

Also you say Aol and OoX Link can not be the same because of how old Link looks in AoL compared to OoX. He is only shown out of sprite form in official art.

Didn't I already say I don't care about the art? I even used a picture of OoX Link out of the game!

already explained above.

already trashed above

Then why does Ganondorf in FSA become Blue Ganon? He is not the same as OoX Ganon. As he is said to be a Gerudo, and by the time we see him, he as gotten the trident and transformed.

I meant Ganondorf becomes Blue Ganon rather than Beast Ganon after Twinrova's resurrection, not just OoX Ganon.

Weird. The quotes you posted didn't show up when I quoted your whole post.
Oh well. The Deku knew Ganon was the King of Darkness because they'd seen him or at least heard about him. It's apparent from that quote.
The inscription read by the Red Maiden meant that taking the Trident caused you to become the King of Darkness, not "you are the King of Darkness if you are able to take this."
The quote by Zelda is in the ancient toungue of NoA. Try Jumbie...

"Ganon...This demon beast was of the Gerudo tribe...It was human and called Ganondorf...! King of Darkness...The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device revived from ancient times!!

Zelda might have thought Vaati was the King of darkness because no one knew of Ganon. Everyone thought Vaati was the one spreading the dark world around. The maiden's and zelda's quote implies that the King of darkness has existed before.

The Jumbie version does not imply that the King of Darkness has existed before. It implies that Ganon took the Trident to become the King of Darkness.

While the official art is complete opinion, I think I owned your point about the king of darkness.

No.

How did you know I was overweight!? STALKER!

Yeah, this is fun. I parried and countered. Choose your next move wisely my friend.

Helm Splitter!

Originally Posted by Majoraman

Wow.

Tell me, have you ever seen a blue fairy in one of the games? I thought not.

*looks at Phantom Hourglass*

But I digress...

Originally Posted by Majoraman

My point is that the concept art should not be accepted as canon.

Wait, wait. It's concept art now? I thought it was official art. I was under the impression that concept art was stuff like this.

Originally Posted by Majoraman

If it were, we would all thing Navi is blue. You've proven me right be disagreeing with me. You used the version of Navi in the game to say that Navi does not canonically look like she does in the art. I could do the same thing and use the version of Ganon in LoZ to say that Ganon does not canonically have the trident like he does in the art.

Yes, I did say Navi is different. And I'm saying she's a bad example. Like I said, conveying light isn't the easiest thing to do in a drawing like that. The artist did they best they could. This is incomparable to the art of Ganon. They were not "forced" to draw the trident. They did so willfully.

Originally Posted by Psy

*looks at Phantom Hourglass*

But I digress...

PH is a pain in my ***. Little details I don't know anything about. Crap.

Wait, wait. It's concept art now? I thought it was official art. I was under the impression that concept art was stuff like this.

Sorry. I meant official.

Yes, I did say Navi is different. And I'm saying she's a bad example. Like I said, conveying light isn't the easiest thing to do in a drawing like that. The artist did they best they could. This is incomparable to the art of Ganon. They were not "forced" to draw the trident. They did so willfully.

So he's out of yellow pencils?