Timeline split worked differently

Before I begin let me make this point clear: I am *not* trying to prove the timeline isn't split. I just think the events outlined below just make it work differently - if at all. This idea should be equally enjoyable to advocates as well as opponents of the split.

As we all know, at the end of OoT, Zelda sends Link back in time to regain his childhood - "...the way you are supposed to be..." I think the quote goes. Then we see Link travel back in time, appearing in ToT, Navi leaves, then we cut to Hyrule Castle's courtyard, where Zelda is still peering apprehensively into the same window, turns, gasps, sees Link, bingo - the console freezes (ok, eventually).

It seems the predominant point of view is he somehow manages to warn her of Ganondorf's evil plot and the whole thing is somehow averted. Thus, time is split into two histories, explaining numerous discrepancies between other stories, etc.

I have trouble believing this. For one thing, I haven't heard of any solid reason why this was the moment where history became two different things. Another point that bothers me greatly is this supposition negates the entire story. That just sounds like bad storytelling to me.

Here is what I think happened:

Zelda sends Link back in time, he arrives in ToT.

As the camera pans around the sacred chamber, we see through the door of time - which appears to be open, but the sacred stones are not there.

That in my opinion places Link sometime before he opened the door of Time. It's possible the door of Time has a one-way lock - one can exit, but not enter through the door.

Fine - Navi splits, and amusingly heads for what looks like a CLOSED window. Perhaps she plans on bashing her brains out buzzing against it or something. The point is she leaves.

Then, next on Link's agenda is Hyrule Castle courtyard. Zelda is still peering apprehensively into the throneroom window. We only see perhaps a guard at the king's side, but can presume Ganondorf is still in there. Why else would she still be watching (other than I'm totally wrong)?

However, Navi has left. And Link no longer has the Spiritual Stone of the Forest. If Link appeared earlier than their first meeting, no Navi and no green rock, He'd be outside the gate on his face, flashing red, faster than you can say "auggh!"

That in my opinion places Link AFTER he first spoke with Zelda.

So, back to endgame cutscene, Zelda is *still* peering through that window looking all worried, Ganondorf must still be in there, Link turns up, no fairy, no green rock.

In my opinion then, his message must have been: "Ganondorf is here to kidnap you! No time to explain, you must flee!"

This is exactly what Zelda did next earlier in the game. She and Impa take off like the wind, presumably on the fastest horse in the Royal Stable. She spots Link **again** approaching the gate from somewhere in Hyrule Field. He can't be in two places at once unless he really IS the Hero of Time - quick, throw him the Ocarina!

Ganondorf, close behind must be feeling pretty surprised at this moment, after all - how did Zelda manage to figure out he was after her in time to escape? He clearly intended to get her in particular, and his best opportunity would have been during or after his royal audience - which would allow him to play his hand from inside.

This idea answers a number of questions in my mind quite well:
One other good reason for Link appearing at that moment that is not tangible is it just makes for good storytelling in time-travel. Most time-travel stories that resolve in the end the best leave the traveler at the end of the story returning to about the same moment he or she started.
It also explains how Zelda managed to get away just in time before Ganondorf snatched her - Link's warning was that is why he's in the Castle.
It also explains why she trusted him as she fled enough to throw him the Ocarina. Only one person can be in two places at once: the true Hero of Time. Just that first conversation didn't give me any reason to believe she trusted him enough at that point to toss him a sacred relic that belongs to the Royal Family.
It also does one thing other timeline-split theories don't: it fits OoT's endgame into the story instead of negating it.

So, I promised at the beginning that I'm not trying to denounce split timeline theory. So, as promised, I will now point out there is still one paradox left unexplained:

Epona.

At the beginning of MM, Child Link is riding Epona. According to OoT, this cannot be reasonably explained for two reasons:
1. Child Link NEVER rides Epona in OoT.
2. Malon FINDS OUT Adult Link tamed her during OoT.

Here is what I think Link did after warning Zelda:
He made a quiet escape from the Castle, giving the earlier Child Link enough Time to enter the Sacred Realm. Then he just strolls out of Castle Town, heads for Lon Lon Ranch, and somehow convinces Malon to give him Epona. Having picked up his horse, he heads out of Hyrule altogether to wait out the next seven years. Perhaps it occurs to him that he could occupy some of this time trying to find out where Navi went. We all know he winds up in Terminus sooner or later.
However, if he did this - and he must have! We see him riding Epona in MM and he's not grown! It must have created a paradox which split history into two lines. He could not have simply returned Epona after MM, I doubt Malon would forget she gave Epona to Link already, and I doubt she would forget he tamed her when he was a child. He could not have kept Epona because then she wouldn't be there in seven years, and Adult Link would never have awoken Nabooru because he would never have managed to get into Gerudo Valley.

That's all I have to say for now, feel free to play "crush the n00b" now.

ok, link, when sent back in time, has the Trifroce of Courage, which means that the king would believe him, because he has the sacred mark, about Ganondorf, Zelda has yet to meet Link, but Link already knows her. Thus is the paradox that is Zelda.

All I have to say is he very well could have been sent back to before he met Zelda but after he got the Kokiri Emerald.

In fact, that's what I think happened.

Spilt timeline has been confirmed so that cancles his theory. How do you explain Ganondorf not knowing him in OoT or the master sword and in ww he know them. Can you post a timeline to show how you think the game might go?

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

That's all I have to say for now, feel free to play "crush the n00b" now.

O.K. crush th n00b!! *waits for Erimgard*

Originally Posted by rajin95

Spilt timeline has been confirmed so that cancles his theory. How do you explain Ganondorf not knowing him in OoT or the master sword and in ww he know them. Can you post a timeline to show how you think the game might go?

O.K. crush th n00b!! *waits for Erimgard*

Before I begin let me make this point clear: I am *not* trying to prove the timeline isn't split.

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

As we all know, at the end of OoT, Zelda sends Link back in time to regain his childhood - "...the way you are supposed to be..." I think the quote goes. Then we see Link travel back in time, appearing in ToT, Navi leaves, then we cut to Hyrule Castle's courtyard, where Zelda is still peering apprehensively into the same window, turns, gasps, sees Link, bingo - the console freezes (ok, eventually).

It seems the predominant point of view is he somehow manages to warn her of Ganondorf's evil plot and the whole thing is somehow averted. Thus, time is split into two histories, explaining numerous discrepancies between other stories, etc.

True for the most part.
However, time would split at the exact second Link was sent back, not when he warned the Princess.
Eiji Aonuma seems to believe this himself.

I have trouble believing this. For one thing, I haven't heard of any solid reason why this was the moment where history became two different things.

See above.
The theory basically goes that time travel in Zelda causes splits, but that the Master Sword had the ability to do linear travel.
At the end of the game, you use Zelda's power, and not the Master Sword, to go back. Thus, it's a different kind of travel, and instead of sending you back to your timeline, it creates a separate timeline.

It's just one of many theories of how time can work in real life, and it appears Zelda chose it.

Here is what I think happened:
Zelda sends Link back in time, he arrives in ToT.
As the camera pans around the sacred chamber, we see through the door of time - which appears to be open, but the sacred stones are not there.
That in my opinion places Link sometime before he opened the door of Time. It's possible the door of Time has a one-way lock - one can exit, but not enter through the door.

Possible.
I believe he is sent back to before he ever met Zelda. We can't see if the Stones are there or not. Hard to say

Fine - Navi splits, and amusingly heads for what looks like a CLOSED window. Perhaps she plans on bashing her brains out buzzing against it or something.

We can only hope.

Then, next on Link's agenda is Hyrule Castle courtyard. Zelda is still peering apprehensively into the throneroom window. We only see perhaps a guard at the king's side, but can presume Ganondorf is still in there. Why else would she still be watching (other than I'm totally wrong)?

However, Navi has left. And Link no longer has the Spiritual Stone of the Forest. If Link appeared earlier than their first meeting, no Navi and no green rock, He'd be outside the gate on his face, flashing red, faster than you can say "auggh!"

That in my opinion places Link AFTER he first spoke with Zelda.

How do you explain her shocked expression when she sees you? It's the same one as the first time she saw you.
Also, if she's still spying/waiting for Ganondorf...

So, back to endgame cutscene, Zelda is *still* peering through that window looking all worried, Ganondorf must still be in there, Link turns up, no fairy, no green rock.

In my opinion then, his message must have been: "Ganondorf is here to kidnap you! No time to explain, you must flee!"

He had time/way to explain. Note the Triforce of Courage is glowing on his hand.

This is exactly what Zelda did next earlier in the game. She and Impa take off like the wind, presumably on the fastest horse in the Royal Stable. She spots Link **again** approaching the gate from somewhere in Hyrule Field. He can't be in two places at once unless he really IS the Hero of Time - quick, throw him the Ocarina!

heh...you suggesting some sort of cycle here?

It also explains how Zelda managed to get away just in time before Ganondorf snatched her - Link's warning was that is why he's in the Castle.
It also explains why she trusted him as she fled enough to throw him the Ocarina. Only one person can be in two places at once: the true Hero of Time. Just that first conversation didn't give me any reason to believe she trusted him enough at that point to toss him a sacred relic that belongs to the Royal Family.

She's telepathic and had dreams about him.

It also does one thing other timeline-split theories don't: it fits OoT's endgame into the story instead of negating it.

Wha? how do others negate it?

Epona.

At the beginning of MM, Child Link is riding Epona. According to OoT, this cannot be reasonably explained for two reasons:
1. Child Link NEVER rides Epona in OoT.
2. Malon FINDS OUT Adult Link tamed her during OoT.

He became friends with Zelda and Malon at the end of child side OoT, thus acquiring the OoT [as the cutscene in MM shows us] and Epona.

Having picked up his horse, he heads out of Hyrule altogether to wait out the next seven years. Perhaps it occurs to him that he could occupy some of this time trying to find out where Navi went. We all know he winds up in Terminus sooner or later.

MM shows us that he becomes friends with Zelda, stays with her "a short time", and she gives him the Ocarina.

Originally Posted by rajin95

O.K. crush th n00b!! *waits for Erimgard*

oh you

Aha, Erimgard. I am honored.

If I may:

However, time would split at the exact second Link was sent back, not when he warned the Princess.
Eiji Aonuma seems to believe this himself.

Miyamoto immediately followed that comment with a disclaimer:

Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

The theory basically goes that time travel in Zelda causes splits, but that the Master Sword had the ability to do linear travel.

So, the point made here is even though just the concept of time travel is in and of itself already an unlikelihood, unknown to us IRL - there are two ways to do this in Hyrule and they have different effects on causality? I'm sorry, I think my idea is simpler and more elegant. Obviously Link used the Master Sword to travel and Zelda used the Ocarina of Time to send him back, but it seems farfetched to me that it would work so differently - sounds to me more like an assumption made to support a weak theory. There are already other problems with Link's travels in time impacting causality that go unaddressed, such as rupees and magic beans. Hm, good idea for another thread.

I believe he is sent back to before he ever met Zelda. We can't see if the Stones are there or not. Hard to say

I will check my facts by entering the chamber and looking out toward the outer room. If I still can't see the stones ingame, I will accept your comment is at least as valid to my own observation. Not sure (haven't looked at) which version I have in ROM, or would you prefer WiiWare version (as latest)? Either way, at best this point will strip my idea of one observation as fact, not disprove it.

[about Navi]We can only hope.

Maybe it will bang some more AI into her puny brain ROFL

How do you explain her shocked expression when she sees you? It's the same one as the first time she saw you.
Also, if she's still spying/waiting for Ganondorf...

We are both working under assumption, aren't we? She may not recognize him, sure - but she may be just plain out of sorts. Or surprised to see Link so soon. It could just be lazy programmers re-using part of a cutscene as stock footage or to save space. But I think asserting she hasn't seen him before at this point is the weaker assumption, since during the original scene, she confirms he's the "man of her dreams" (lol) because he's got a fairy and a rock. We know Navi split on him, and nobody knows what's in his pocket. Besides, inventory arguments about Link at endgame are weak, considering the earlier point you made about time travel working in more ways than one. And the ToC detail is unreliable (see below).
I already asserted Ganondorf hadn't left and Link concluded he was there to kidnap her. These points fit my story as well as yours.

He had time/way to explain. Note the Triforce of Courage is glowing on his hand.

Before I respond, I object to this comment since it is also NOT on his hand when he arrives in ToT - therefore it's either a glitch that he had it in the courtyard, erasing your point altogether, or a glitch that he didn't have it in ToT, which doesn't disprove my point as it could simply be another clue for Zelda to draw an accurate conclusion.
However, under the assumption I'm totally wrong, your statement is completely true - but it doesn't disprove me.

heh...you suggesting some sort of cycle here?

Spot, on, sir. In other words: why not? It worked flawlessly in Bill&Ted. "Dude: you guys are gonna go back in time!"

She's telepathic and had dreams about him.

True, but she confirmed he is the one from her dream mid-game by confirming he had a fairy and a rock, neither of which are in his possession at endgame. At least in my opinion (ha has no Forest Spiritual Stone).

Wha? how do others negate it?

Perhaps I mis-spoke here. I'm not "in the groove" with a story that ends with a recon. Suggesting that Link appears to Zelda at endgame before she met him, and his warning averts the entire sequence of game events is to me poor literature. I've been more interested in the opportunities laid out in the game to discuss in-game theology, but all of this timeline talk got me thinking about OoT's ending - and how I can't accept the ending is "boom! Timeline split" as is apparently accepted as canon to explain numerous discrepancies elsewhere in other games. I prefer to think Link's appearance in the courtyard at endgame had meaning that is more relevant to the rest of the story, and I hope I've succeeded. Perhaps we could discuss how my idea might fit into existing split timeline theory rather than writing it off in one go?

He became friends with Zelda and Malon at the end of child side OoT, thus acquiring the OoT [as the cutscene in MM shows us] and Epona.

Oh, the flashback. I can't remember it, I should review before commenting further. I'll see if I can find a quality clip to examine. My daughter is bent on watching me play through all titles we have, and while we're nearly finished with WW, she's determined to make me play through TP next for her, or PH. Convincing her to watch MM next could be tricky. And my 64 controllers don't reach my couch so it's hard to talk me into as well.
Either way, this response still in my opinion does not disprove my idea (take note I'm not labeling it a theory yet) - it is already a paradox, since in OoT's Adult Time, Malon doesn't let on she knows Link any better than having met him in Child Time, and is surprised and impressed to see Link has tamed Epona. I have already fit that point into my Epona-paradox detail.

MM shows us that he becomes friends with Zelda, stays with her "a short time", and she gives him the Ocarina.

Again, I will check my facts and review the flashback. It's been a long time since I last finished MM, and I remember thinking he carried the Forest Ocarina, not the Ocarina of Time. But before I declare that even as my opinion I will check.

Thanks for your comments!

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Miyamoto immediately followed that comment with a disclaimer:

We're talking about different quote. I believe your one was Shigeru and Eiji together discussing it in either 2002 or 2004.
The one I'm referencing is this one from 2006:

Originally Posted by Eiji Aonuma interview

–When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something outrageous, so it was decided that he should be executed. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

So, the point made here is even though just the concept of time travel is in and of itself already an unlikelihood, unknown to us IRL - there are two ways to do this in Hyrule and they have different effects on causality? I'm sorry, I think my idea is simpler and more elegant. Obviously Link used the Master Sword to travel and Zelda used the Ocarina of Time to send him back, but it seems farfetched to me that it would work so differently - sounds to me more like an assumption made to support a weak theory. There are already other problems with Link's travels in time impacting causality that go unaddressed, such as rupees and magic beans. Hm, good idea for another thread.

Shaky logic, sure. But like I said, no one knows how time works for sure, and Shigeru/Eiji seem to support the concept that Link's final trip back through time caused a split.
Obviously his traveling during the game didn't cause splits, because events in the past affect the future, thus proving linearity.
So, while it may seem...odd... the games seem to suggest:
Master Sword travel=Linear
Zelda's Power=causes split.

I will check my facts by entering the chamber and looking out toward the outer room. If I still can't see the stones ingame, I will accept your comment is at least as valid to my own observation. Not sure (haven't looked at) which version I have in ROM, or would you prefer WiiWare version (as latest)? Either way, at best this point will strip my idea of one observation as fact, not disprove it.

I don't think the different versions show different angles of the Door of Time, so any should work.
If I recall correctly, Link appears, looks around kinda confused, and then takes a few steps. The door of time is not shown.

We are both working under assumption, aren't we? She may not recognize him, sure - but she may be just plain out of sorts. Or surprised to see Link so soon. It could just be lazy programmers re-using part of a cutscene as stock footage or to save space. But I think asserting she hasn't seen him before at this point is the weaker assumption, since during the original scene, she confirms he's the "man of her dreams" (lol) because he's got a fairy and a rock. We know Navi split on him, and nobody knows what's in his pocket. Besides, inventory arguments about Link at endgame are weak, considering the earlier point you made about time travel working in more ways than one. And the ToC detail is unreliable (see below).
I already asserted Ganondorf hadn't left and Link concluded he was there to kidnap her. These points fit my story as well as yours.

Well, the ToC would account for that difference.
It's not visible in the Temple of Time, because it only glows when it's
A: In use [Ganondorf turning into Ganon, Zelda turning into Sheik]
B: Near another Triforce piece

True, but she confirmed he is the one from her dream mid-game by confirming he had a fairy and a rock, neither of which are in his possession at endgame. At least in my opinion (ha has no Forest Spiritual Stone).

See my above point. I believe Zelda believed him because of his ToC, and it only glowed when he got near her, thus we don't see it in the Temple of Time.

Perhaps I mis-spoke here. I'm not "in the groove" with a story that ends with a recon. Suggesting that Link appears to Zelda at endgame before she met him, and his warning averts the entire sequence of game events is to me poor literature. I've been more interested in the opportunities laid out in the game to discuss in-game theology, but all of this timeline talk got me thinking about OoT's ending - and how I can't accept the ending is "boom! Timeline split" as is apparently accepted as canon to explain numerous discrepancies elsewhere in other games. I prefer to think Link's appearance in the courtyard at endgame had meaning that is more relevant to the rest of the story, and I hope I've succeeded. Perhaps we could discuss how my idea might fit into existing split timeline theory rather than writing it off in one go?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this here...
I'm saying the timeline splits at the exact second of Link's final trip back in time.
The Adult Timeline is then severed, and what Link does in the past is not affected. Thus, in the Adult Timeline, Ganon is sealed and there is no Link.

In the Child Timeline, Link averts disaster, but that does not change the Adult Timeline. They have already been severed.

Thanks for your comments!

'Tis my pleasure. Let me know what you think when you've had a chance to view those videos.

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Before I begin let me make this point clear: I am *not* trying to prove the timeline isn't split. I just think the events outlined below just make it work differently - if at all. This idea should be equally enjoyable to advocates as well as opponents of the split.

Than what are you trying to prove?

[QUOTE=Erimgard;2228557]True for the most part.
However, time would split at the exact second Link was sent back, not when he warned the Princess.
Eiji Aonuma seems to believe this himself.


See above.
The theory basically goes that time travel in Zelda causes splits, but that the Master Sword had the ability to do linear travel.
At the end of the game, you use Zelda's power, and not the Master Sword, to go back. Thus, it's a different kind of travel, and instead of sending you back to your timeline, it creates a separate timeline.

It's just one of many theories of how time can work in real life, and it appears Zelda chose it.[Quote]
Well this is a video game it doesn't have to make sence.

Possible.
I believe he is sent back to before he ever met Zelda. We can't see if the Stones are there or not. Hard to say

Link could still have the first one and not have placed it there yet.

He had time/way to explain. Note the Triforce of Courage is glowing on his hand.

Not so sure about that (but I did play the colceters edition version.)

He became friends with Zelda and Malon at the end of child side OoT, thus acquiring the OoT [as the cutscene in MM shows us] and Epona.

MM shows us that he becomes friends with Zelda, stays with her "a short time", and she gives him the Ocarina.

All I can say with 100% certant are true

oh you

You're welcome!

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Spot, on, sir. In other words: why not? It worked flawlessly in Bill&Ted. "Dude: you guys are gonna go back in time!"

Not sure what that is, but it can't be couted.

True, but she confirmed he is the one from her dream mid-game by confirming he had a fairy and a rock, neither of which are in his possession at endgame. At least in my opinion (ha has no Forest Spiritual Stone).

We don't know about the stone.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

We're talking about different quote. I believe your one was Shigeru and Eiji together discussing it in either 2002 or 2004.
The one I'm referencing is this one from 2006:

True, but develepor quotes aren't always canon.

Shaky logic, sure. But like I said, no one knows how time works for sure, and Shigeru/Eiji seem to support the concept that Link's final trip back through time caused a split.
Obviously his traveling during the game didn't cause splits, because events in the past affect the future, thus proving linearity.
So, while it may seem...odd... the games seem to suggest:
Master Sword travel=Linear
Zelda's Power=causes split.

All true because the master sword makes link grow older and Zelda wanted a split time line.

I don't think the different versions show different angles of the Door of Time, so any should work.
If I recall correctly, Link appears, looks around kinda confused, and then takes a few steps. The door of time is not shown.

The newest one 'cause like you said remake are mor canon.

Well, the ToC would account for that difference.
It's not visible in the Temple of Time, because it only glows when it's
A: In use [Ganondorf turning into Ganon, Zelda turning into Sheik]
B: Near another Triforce piece

Or if the weilder wants them to.

Wow this is a really long post. Please give me you timeline cavenerd a theory this big can't be made with out a timeline.

Originally Posted by rajin95

Not so sure about that (but I did play the colceters edition version.)

I saw a list once showing what was added/removed with each version...unfortunately it didn't list the ToC. I know that my version is the second newest one though. The newer one removed the symbol on the Mirror Shield, but I don't know if it changed the ToC or not.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I saw a list once showing what was added/removed with each version...unfortunately it didn't list the ToC. I know that my version is the second newest one though. The newer one removed the symbol on the Mirror Shield, but I don't know if it changed the ToC or not.

Nope, I just played through the normal game on the master quest disc. The ToC is still on his hand. There is a newer one, on the Collection disc (Loz, AoL, OoT, MM) which I have, but never used for OoT.

Erimgard, I checked one of my facts as promised. Didn't have time to fire up the '64, but I entered ToT in WiiWare OoT and took a look around. Once I did so I remembered reading somewhere ToT is a complex map and some corners had to be cut to keep from throttling the CPU with all that rendering.

As link looks toward the outer room from the sword pedestal at any point, the following details are missing:
1. The Spiritual Stones.
2. The Warp point(!)
3. Two pillars on the same wall as the outer door to Castle Town.

By the way, before I made that comment yesterday, I watched the ToT portion of the final cutscene carefully looking for clues to support my idea. After Link appears at the pedestal, the camera pans a Z-rotation centered on Link while taking a Y-path upward. Basically the same path as a fairy, only at a farther distance and slower. Link looks himself over - specifically noticing his hands (and the ToC mark is not present).

So my conclusion here is there is literally not enough data to support any position related to the Door of Time, other than it appears to be open. The stones cannot be seen from inside the Sacred Chamber; however, that is always true.

I agree with rajin95 that developer quotes can't be considered reliable, partly due to stuff like the Miyamoto quotes he and I noted earlier. I did declare though that I accept "all content from Nintendo or licensees" as canon, which could be shooting myself in the foot, but hey. We're all different on that point anyway, right?

Sorry for not addressing all points made, I don't want to post another mile-long read. [EDIT: well at least I tried] But I will say Erimgard's replies make me fell like I just walked in and said "hey, can I join this party? I know a thing or two..." and The Master walked up to me and said "Oh yeah? Let's see what you got." In fact I'm surprised to have made it past round 1 debating with Erimgard - maybe I should change my avatar from Eratosthenes to Mr. Gumby ("My Brain Hurts!!!")

Oh, and could you direct me to a canonical source supporting your definition of the ToC mark's behavior?

rajin95:
You should check out Bill&Ted's Excellent Adventure. A very amusing take on two moronic teenagers traveling through history in order to make a passing grade for their history report. Early on they are "looped" and talk to themselves. Please take note: I was not trying to drag non-content into this and lay claim that it's canonical. I was illustrating that time travel can include "loops" that are either totally benign or for the point I was making, part of what propels the plot to move forward. That's what I was trying to show: Bill&Ted go on their journey because they get an endorsement to trust Rufus from an undeniable source - themselves. Similarly, I'm claiming Link warned Zelda that Ganondorf wasn't in the castle to pay homage to the King, he used that as a ruse to get her and his appearance from endgame to the courtyard gave her just enough of a head start to escape him - which would place "endgame Link" in between his first meeting with Zelda and his approach to the castle gates with the three stones.

That's what I'm trying to prove, to address your question directly: "endgame Link" appears back in time shortly before he originally opened the Door of Time, and warned Zelda that Ganondorf was in the castle to get to her. This I claimed propels the plot of the story by prompting her escape from the castle with him not far behind. Link is "looped" at this point, so Zelda sees him outside the gates as being two places at once - and decides to entrust the Ocarina to him because only the Hero of Time could be two places at once. It very neatly makes the final cutscene relevant to the rest of the story imho.

Regarding "my timeline" - well, uh... I must admit I haven't given it enough thought to claim that I actually have one. Up to now I've been a linear timeline believer, but having seen how much thrashing about there is here at ZU on that one topic, I'm not so sure. Basically that means my position is currently "with an open mind either way." I might wind up totally bucking the system in the end and claim some timeline that is just as bizarre and counter-mainstream as this topic is.

This is probably the strongest challenge against my claim so far, and I'll have to give much thought to how Link's travel from endgame to midgame would work in the big picture of split or linear timelines. I suspect it supports neither. Why else would there be no supportive replies so far?

In fact, I actually joined ZU looking for some interesting discussions on the Theology of Hyrule. But all this timeline talk got me thinking about OoT, since that was the last walkthru my daughter talked me into showing her. Currently we're nearly done with WW, and she wants TP next.

Skylarkff, MQ is a port, so there are bound to be a number of differences. Can you tell me if the stones can be seen from inside the chamber at any point (during play or final cutscene)?

The interesting thing about this topic to me is we seem to be debating a lot of points that support both my point of view and those who disagree. I think that's pretty cool.

I just have one comment. About you thinking the only logical explanation for Zelda giving the Ocarina of Time to Link is because she knew he was the Hero of Time: If she knew that, then she would have known she had to give it to him, however she says this:

Originally Posted by Zelda

I thought I should entrust the
Ocarina to you... I thought that
would be our best chance...

It seems more like she gave it to him hoping he could get the Triforce before Ganondorf, not she knew he had to have it. If she knew he was the Hero of Time, she would of said "knew", however she says "thought" almost like she gave it to him on an impulse as she was fleeing.

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

By the way, before I made that comment yesterday, I watched the ToT portion of the final cutscene carefully looking for clues to support my idea. After Link appears at the pedestal, the camera pans a Z-rotation centered on Link while taking a Y-path upward. Basically the same path as a fairy, only at a farther distance and slower. Link looks himself over - specifically noticing his hands (and the ToC mark is not present)

So my conclusion here is there is literally not enough data to support any position related to the Door of Time, other than it appears to be open. The stones cannot be seen from inside the Sacred Chamber; however, that is always true.

I find the fact that Link looks at his hands particularly telling. If you'll note, any time you travel back in time by placing the sword in the pedestal, they make a big deal of showing Link crouched over, grasping the sword, and then slowly letting go.
The final time, however, Link seems to appear right next to the sword, and glances at his hands in a "...what just happened???" manner.
This of course does not prove that it was a different kind of time travel [linear instead of split] but it makes it seem like Link never put the MS back himself on the adult timeline [Zelda says it will be put back though, which makes me think she did it herself] and that it was Zelda's power alone that sent him back.

I agree with rajin95 that developer quotes can't be considered reliable, partly due to stuff like the Miyamoto quotes he and I noted earlier. I did declare though that I accept "all content from Nintendo or licensees" as canon, which could be shooting myself in the foot, but hey. We're all different on that point anyway, right?

Well, I consider director quotes as semi-canon.
Example being, the first two times Aonuma told the press where TP was going to go, he said it was either post-WW or in between OoT and WW. However, he gave no evidence to support this, and just left it hanging.
Now, in the 2006 quote about TP's placement, he gave a detailed description of how the OoT child ending could lead into the backstory of TP.

But I will say Erimgard's replies make me fell like I just walked in and said "hey, can I join this party? I know a thing or two..." and The Master walked up to me and said "Oh yeah? Let's see what you got." In fact I'm surprised to have made it past round 1 debating with Erimgard - maybe I should change my avatar from Eratosthenes to Mr. Gumby ("My Brain Hurts!!!")

Haha, well I don't view it that way at all really.
I think you're quite good at debating.

Oh, and could you direct me to a canonical source supporting your definition of the ToC mark's behavior?

The glowing you mean?
Well, Link has it throughout the entire Adult Side of OoT, but it doesn't glow until he's either near Zelda and Ganondorf. Ganondorf tells us that the Triforce pieces resonate when they are near each other.
OoT and TP show us examples of the Triforce pieces glowing when their holder is using their power.

That's what I'm trying to prove, to address your question directly: "endgame Link" appears back in time shortly before he originally opened the Door of Time, and warned Zelda that Ganondorf was in the castle to get to her. This I claimed propels the plot of the story by prompting her escape from the castle with him not far behind. Link is "looped" at this point, so Zelda sees him outside the gates as being two places at once - and decides to entrust the Ocarina to him because only the Hero of Time could be two places at once. It very neatly makes the final cutscene relevant to the rest of the story imho.

The final cutscene is relevant without a loop though.
Because [theoretically] the two timelines were severed upon Link's final journey, that cutscene is what causes Twilight Princess to happen.

Link warning Zelda does not erase the future where Ganondorf took over, because that's been severed. But, it sets the stage for Twilight Princess on another timeline.

Regarding "my timeline" - well, uh... I must admit I haven't given it enough thought to claim that I actually have one. Up to now I've been a linear timeline believer, but having seen how much thrashing about there is here at ZU on that one topic, I'm not so sure.

Well, with director quotes, a split is canon. Without, a linear timeline is quite difficult, but can be pulled off...it just takes some speculation here and there.

This is probably the strongest challenge against my claim so far, and I'll have to give much thought to how Link's travel from endgame to midgame would work in the big picture of split or linear timelines. I suspect it supports neither. Why else would there be no supportive replies so far?

Well, based on your theory....when does the split occur? When he leaves for Termina?

The interesting thing about this topic to me is we seem to be debating a lot of points that support both my point of view and those who disagree. I think that's pretty cool.

Mmhmm. Whenever you get something controversial, there will be evidence for and against your idea. It's then up to us to decided what is the most logical conclusion to reach from that data...and it's fun

Triforce of the Gods:
Good point. However, Zelda is always in self-doubt mode. She never points out exactly when she concluded it's all her fault as stated in the final scene. This could be little more than a clue that she's already on track for that. "It seemed like a good idea at the time" or "I thought for sure things would work out" is pretty standard stuff.

Erimgard:
The hands thing - yeah. He also does that at other times, too I think. It must be pretty jarring for one's body to change so much so quickly, I don't blame him for looking himself over in shock when it happens. I doubt that's something anyone could get used to.
...but the sword is in place already when he arrives ToT endgame - that's a big clue, and I missed it! But still that places Link before he first opens the Door of Time and that supports your view as well as mine. It does however solve the question of whether or not the Door of Time is already open or simply a one-way. Since the sword is in place when Link arrives, the Door must not have been opened yet, and by grace of the goddesses, he's not trapped inside the sacred chamber because the Door is one-way.

I was actually asking about the ToC's presence on Link's hand, not the glowing. I don't consider this a reliable point for either of us to make, since it's not present in Tot at endgame, but is prominently shown when he appears in the courtyard.

You called my idea a theory! Indeed, I believe Epona is the fulcrum point of the split. The fact that she MUST be at Lon Lon Ranch in Adult Time for Link to get her from Ingo AND Malon still doesn't know Link very well in Adult Time later conflicts with Young Link riding her in MM. To me this is a clear paradox, unresolvable. If Young Link took Epona, he would have to get past Malon. And he would have to return her before Adult Time. And Malon would have to "act" like she doesn't know Link very well. Not totally impossible, but unlikely and not supported by any ingame evidence I know of. However this still supports the "standard" definition of the split as well as my own.

I've been looking for the flashback sequence online and failed. Unless someone reading this could post a link I may have to set out for Terminus on my 64 again. I did find a walkthru that describes the scene as Link "learning" the Song of Time by remembering Zelda taught it to him. Of course the walkthru's point is learning the Song of Time, not what the flashback was all about. That's all I have so far.

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Triforce of the Gods:
Good point. However, Zelda is always in self-doubt mode. She never points out exactly when she concluded it's all her fault as stated in the final scene. This could be little more than a clue that she's already on track for that. "It seemed like a good idea at the time" or "I thought for sure things would work out" is pretty standard stuff.

Erimgard:
The hands thing - yeah. He also does that at other times, too I think. It must be pretty jarring for one's body to change so much so quickly, I don't blame him for looking himself over in shock when it happens. I doubt that's something anyone could get used to.
...but the sword is in place already when he arrives ToT endgame - that's a big clue, and I missed it! But still that places Link before he first opens the Door of Time and that supports your view as well as mine. It does however solve the question of whether or not the Door of Time is already open or simply a one-way. Since the sword is in place when Link arrives, the Door must not have been opened yet, and by grace of the goddesses, he's not trapped inside the sacred chamber because the Door is one-way.

I was actually asking about the ToC's presence on Link's hand, not the glowing. I don't consider this a reliable point for either of us to make, since it's not present in Tot at endgame, but is prominently shown when he appears in the courtyard.

You called my idea a theory! Indeed, I believe Epona is the fulcrum point of the split. The fact that she MUST be at Lon Lon Ranch in Adult Time for Link to get her from Ingo AND Malon still doesn't know Link very well in Adult Time later conflicts with Young Link riding her in MM. To me this is a clear paradox, unresolvable. If Young Link took Epona, he would have to get past Malon. And he would have to return her before Adult Time. And Malon would have to "act" like she doesn't know Link very well. Not totally impossible, but unlikely and not supported by any ingame evidence I know of. However this still supports the "standard" definition of the split as well as my own.

I've been looking for the flashback sequence online and failed. Unless someone reading this could post a link I may have to set out for Terminus on my 64 again. I did find a walkthru that describes the scene as Link "learning" the Song of Time by remembering Zelda taught it to him. Of course the walkthru's point is learning the Song of Time, not what the flashback was all about. That's all I have so far.

hence the split, in some ways it is now a different timeline, the epona link is riding in MM is never destined for the dark future, and is never ridden by adult link (well, not long after MM ), the epona in OoT (adult) was never destined to go to termina, its kind of like an alternate universe, not a paradox, the adult timeline could still happen if the right conditions are met, link arrives in the past where the conditions have changed, so while the possibility of the adult timeline is not erased, the child timeline just takes a bigger hold, and this sounded way better in my head.

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Triforce of the Gods:
Good point. However, Zelda is always in self-doubt mode. She never points out exactly when she concluded it's all her fault as stated in the final scene. This could be little more than a clue that she's already on track for that. "It seemed like a good idea at the time" or "I thought for sure things would work out" is pretty standard stuff.

And that's just the thing...
If Link knew that Zelda's plan was...uh, shall we say "an epic failure" then when he went back in time, he wouldn't have warned her to escape the castle...he would've warned her not to do anything to open the Door of Time and let Ganondorf in. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

I was actually asking about the ToC's presence on Link's hand, not the glowing. I don't consider this a reliable point for either of us to make, since it's not present in Tot at endgame, but is prominently shown when he appears in the courtyard.

I can show you a screen shot, but it would be from the second newest version, as that's the version I have....so I don't know if that would do it for ya or not.

You called my idea a theory! Indeed, I believe Epona is the fulcrum point of the split. The fact that she MUST be at Lon Lon Ranch in Adult Time for Link to get her from Ingo AND Malon still doesn't know Link very well in Adult Time later conflicts with Young Link riding her in MM. To me this is a clear paradox, unresolvable. If Young Link took Epona, he would have to get past Malon. And he would have to return her before Adult Time. And Malon would have to "act" like she doesn't know Link very well. Not totally impossible, but unlikely and not supported by any ingame evidence I know of. However this still supports the "standard" definition of the split as well as my own.

It's not a paradox assuming the two timelines are severed. The final time Link goes back, it creates a split.
Adult Side is set in stone, and leads to WW.
Chlid Side [presumably back before Link ever pulled the MS] cannot affect Adult Side anymore, but in fact, is it's own new timeline. So what Link does with Epona on Child Side has no effect on how Malon treats him on Adult Side.


I've been looking for the flashback sequence online and failed. Unless someone reading this could post a link I may have to set out for Terminus on my 64 again. I did find a walkthru that describes the scene as Link "learning" the Song of Time by remembering Zelda taught it to him. Of course the walkthru's point is learning the Song of Time, not what the flashback was all about. That's all I have so far.[/QUOTE]
YouTube - Legend Of Zelda Majora's Mask Learning The Song Of Time

that should be it^

And that's just the thing...
If Link knew that Zelda's plan was...uh, shall we say "an epic failure" then when he went back in time, he wouldn't have warned her to escape the castle...he would've warned her not to do anything to open the Door of Time and let Ganondorf in. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

Heh, an excellent point. Probably the best counterpoint yet. However it is an assumption, and it could just as easily be assumed that Link sees Zelda is still looking at Ganondorf, and concludes the next event is inevitable. Perhaps NOT having the Ocarina risks an even more devastating future for Hyrule.

I can show you a screen shot, but it would be from the second newest version, as that's the version I have....so I don't know if that would do it for ya or not.

I'll take your word for it, assuming you mean the ToC is present on Link's hand in ToT endgame. I'm not a fan of glitches being involved in debates of fact - which is why I propose to ignore ToC altogether and consider both points as valid.

It's not a paradox assuming the two timelines are severed. The final time Link goes back, it creates a split.
Adult Side is set in stone, and leads to WW.
Chlid Side [presumably back before Link ever pulled the MS] cannot affect Adult Side anymore, but in fact, is it's own new timeline. So what Link does with Epona on Child Side has no effect on how Malon treats him on Adult Side.

Sorry, we are misunderstanding each other with regard to "split" and "paradox." I'm working under assumption that a paradox causes a split timeline, since this is the only way a paradox can be actually resolved.

Thanks for the cutscene link. It opened my eyes greatly.

The MM cutscene proves my theory is impossible in CT, since Zelda gave the OoT to "midgame" Link, she wouldn't have it to give him later.

Can you show me how it would fail to work in AT though? I'm thinking the split could take place now due to the Ocarina: In CT he shows up before it all starts and averts Ganon's coup, and in AT he gives Zelda the few moments' warning she needs to escape, then disappears by whatever means - presumably by leaving Hyrule altogether or hiding out in Lost Woods or something.

I gotta tell you I've been knocking myself out how to respond to your last post, Erimgard. At first I was ready to capitulate altogether until I realized I hadn't looked at the bigger picture in split timeline theory.

MY BRAAAAIN HUUUUURTS!!!

Originally Posted by CaveNerd

Heh, an excellent point. Probably the best counterpoint yet. However it is an assumption, and it could just as easily be assumed that Link sees Zelda is still looking at Ganondorf, and concludes the next event is inevitable. Perhaps NOT having the Ocarina risks an even more devastating future for Hyrule.

All up to interpretation I suppose.
I just feel that in this case, it makes more sense to think Link averted disaster. Director quotes go with this, and while in-game evidence is better canon than director quotes, if there's no contradiction I take the quotes seriously.

I'll take your word for it, assuming you mean the ToC is present on Link's hand in ToT endgame. I'm not a fan of glitches being involved in debates of fact - which is why I propose to ignore ToC altogether and consider both points as valid.

I'm fairly certain the ToC is not present on Link's hand while in the ToT in any version of the game. It is present when he's talking to Zelda though.
As I said, it wouldn't be showing in the ToT anyway, because in OoT the Triforce only glows if it's near another Triforce piece, or if it's power is being harnessed.

Thanks for the cutscene link. It opened my eyes greatly.

Not a problem :]

Can you show me how it would fail to work in AT though? I'm thinking the split could take place now due to the Ocarina: In CT he shows up before it all starts and averts Ganon's coup, and in AT he gives Zelda the few moments' warning she needs to escape, then disappears by whatever means - presumably by leaving Hyrule altogether or hiding out in Lost Woods or something.

I'm not sure I get you here...could you place the steps chronologically for me?
Zelda's escape from Ganondorf takes place on the child side, right before you pull the MS, so I don't think I understand what you mean.

I gotta tell you I've been knocking myself out how to respond to your last post, Erimgard. At first I was ready to capitulate altogether until I realized I hadn't looked at the bigger picture in split timeline theory.
MY BRAAAAIN HUUUUURTS!!!

Hahaha, Zelda theorizing does that sometimes xD

Erimgard, I will hand over all other points made in exchange for further discussion on this one:

I'm not sure I get you here...could you place the steps chronologically for me?
Zelda's escape from Ganondorf takes place on the child side, right before you pull the MS, so I don't think I understand what you mean.

Indeed. My current thinking is this: The Ocarina sent Link back in time but wasn't stable, thus splitting into two timelines:
CT:
Exactly as you describe. Link appears before it all happens and averts the whole shebang.

AT:
- Link appears in ToT during the quest to collect the Spiritual Stones. Likely a short time before he (the earlier Link) approaches Hyrule Castle Gates with all three in his pocket.

- Sneaks into the courtyard again, this step contains the final cutscene. Zelda still peering through the window in great distress, hasn't heard back from Link yet. He appears. Why does she gasp? Clearly she's been very anxious to hear from him. Does he have the stones? Did he change his mind?

- Link warns Zelda that Ganondorf is in the castle to kidnap her, and the royal audience is just a ruse. There is only time to fllee. Now.

- Zelda/Impa take off like the wind. She sees Link approaching from the field at the gates, flings him the Ocarina. This Link picks it up, proceeds to ToT, opens the Door, draws the Master Sword, and enters the Sacred Realm - not to be seen for seven years.

- Meanwhile, the other Link (in the courtyard), who is looped - makes a quiet escape, possibly all the way out of Hyrule.

- Seven years later, Ganondorf is gone, big party, blah blah blah. It is now safe for "looped" Link to return, having regained his childhood. Perhaps he does, or maybe he's found a new life or whatever. If I were him, I would already be close enough to hear her play the song and show up seconds later - it would be very easy to get her "in the mood," eh?