A Link to the Past: Does translation matter?

Here is a bit of background for this thread:
For a long time, I have taken the U.S. manual for ALTTP literally. I changed my mind in recent years, and it is only this week that I have read Johan's Translation and Zethar-II's Translation of the Japanese manual which is looked upon as more canon than the NOA Translation.

I hope to blow some strongly-held theories out of the water with this thread, namely the theory which states: OOT (Old Hyrule)...WW (Great Sea)...ALTTP (New Hyrule)

and the "OOT = Seal War" theory
(The Seal War is also known as the Imprisoning War)

I hope to show the former two theories false using the Japanese ALTTP manual (the very manual which is claimed as support for these theories)...but let's start at the beginning. For the sake of argument, I will refer to Zethar-II's Translation of the Japanese manual as canon.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

A Tale: "The History of Hyrule"

To tell the history of Hyrule, the stage for The Legend of Zelda, one must come to know the myth of the Triforce. It is an ancient myth left in Hyrule of the three worshipped gods. The Hylians (also the root word for the word Hyrule) were the people closest to the gods. In their writings left for their descendants, the Hylians talk of creation by the three gods, the "god of power," the "god of wisdom," and the "god of courage."

^This is very important. It says here that this Zelda game (ALTTP) is set in the land of Hyrule. Then the text goes on to reveal the history of this same land (Hyrule) that the three goddesses created. We know from the Deku Tree's tale that OOT Hyrule is the Hyrule created by the goddesses (a "New Hyrule" would not be the same land that was created before the Triforce). We can infer from this that ALTTP Hyrule is one and the same as OOT Hyrule. This is where the OOT -> WW -> ALTTP theory starts to break down.

I am open to the slim possibility that a post-WW wish on the Triforce can restore Old Hyrule, but the idea that ALTTP is in a "New Hyrule" seems absurd to me. Especially considering the monuments written in the ancient language decoded by the "Book of Mudora" (an item Link gets in ALTTP). As well as how the Master Sword's placement in ALTTP matches that of TP. The Lost Woods in ALTTP = the Sacred Grove in TP (notice that the Sacred Grove's maze area plays the Lost Woods theme music). Further, in TP the Master Sword is in the Pedestal of Time, inside the ruins of the Temple of Time. By the time of ALTTP all that remains of the Temple of Time is the Pedestal in the clearing, and of course, the Master Sword. Other ties linking TP to ALTTP are details of Hyrule Castle, the throne, the sewers underneath the castle, and the ability to walk on the castle walls.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth.

^Note that this is present-tense "Hyrule...is[not was] an area..." this means that the Hyrule seen in ALTTP is where the relics have been left.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce. "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm. Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it. Longing soon became greed, and it was not uncommon for blood to be spilt for certain information. The more carefree people had to live days of disquiet.

^This spilling of blood brings to mind the great battle mentioned in TP: "For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..."

Incidentally, some have speculated that the "race of people in the high mountains" are the Gorons, but look at the quote further: "the graves of the race of people in the high mountains". Note the wording "the graves of". The word "of" represents possession, as if the graves belong to the people. This sounds much more like the Sheikah, who have profound connections to Kakariko's Graveyard (which is at the foot of Death Mountain) not to mention Hidden Village in the mountains of TP.

OOT says this about the Sheikah and graveyards: "R.I.P. Here lie the souls of those who swore fealty to the Royal Family of Hyrule The Sheikah, guardians of the Royal Family and founders of Kakariko, watch over these spirits in their eternal slumber." and "The boy with the noble Zelda's Ocarina...As I expected, you have come. I am Impa, one of the Sheikah. I am Princess Zelda's caretaker, and I am also the Sage who guards the Shadow Temple." and "There is an entrance to the Shadow Temple beneath the graveyard behind this village."

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by a certain group of thieves.

^In OOT Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm by chance because Link pulled the Master Sword, in other words LINK opened the entrance. This passage said that the thieves opened it, not Link. Also note, it wasn't just the leader, but the group that is credited with opening it.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

The group began to push aside one another, changing the color of their eyes, and tried to press forward.

^We see the changing of eye color in the cut-scene in TP where the people (represented by Link and Ilia) battle over the Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves.

^Note the wording "race of evil thieves", the Gerudo consider themselves to be "noble thieves". As Nabooru says: " I'm Nabooru of the Gerudo. I'm a lone wolf thief. But don't get me wrong! Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"

And the Gerudo aren't particularly evil, in FSA it is Ganondorf who broke thier laws:
"The village is in a bit of an uproar contending with a man who broke our laws." and "To have a criminal such as him enter... His presence stains its holy ground." and "Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price." and "Curse that Ganondorf! He broke our laws and left for the pyramid..." and "Yes, this Ganondorf you speak of is a member of the Gerudo. But his intent is unknown to me. He has flouted the law and fled for the pyramid. To reach the pyramid, one must first pass the trial of the Desert Temple. The villain Ganondorf will no doubt draw his last breath failing this trial."

Clearly, the Gerudos aren't particularly devoted to evil. Only Ganondorf and Twinrova (who lives far from the camp) are genuinely evil. Although some claim that the Gerudo in OOT are fiercer than those in FSA why is it that they are staying in the desert, and not sharing Ganondorf's success? Indeed they destroyed the bridge leading to Ganon's Castle. Ganon literally "burnt his bridges behind him" in a manner of speaking. To be sure they refer to him as "the great Ganondorf", but I think they are merely showing the proper respect for their fated king.

I think that the term "evil thieves" more accurately describes the thieves who inhabit ALTTP's Lost Woods, FSA's Kakariko Village, and ALTTP's Thieves Town (the Dark World version of Kakariko Village). My thought is that perhaps the original Ganondorf may have been one of THESE thieves, then starred in TLOZ, and then been reborn as a Gerudo for OOT.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

It was called the Master Sword, and it is said that only a true hero could use it.

^Some people infer that Zelda is a "true hero" because she holds the Master Sword in WW, but let me point out that she did not withdraw the sword, and she certianly did not use it. Incidentally Link withdrew a powerless Master Sword, and then proved that he was capable in the Tower of the Gods, otherwise, he probably would have been frozen in time since he was not old enough to be the hero. This doesn't mean Zelda CAN'T touch the Master Sword, who knows? maybe she can...but this certainly does not mean she can USE the Master Sword.

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.

^This certainly doesn't mesh with OOT. If OOT is the Seal War, then the Sages would have known exactly where the Master Sword was (in the Temple of Time).

Originally Posted by Zethar-II's Translation

However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one. The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal. The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power. This battle, for its many sacrifices, was passed down to future generations as the "Seal War."

^This TRULY cannot be OOT. Ganon was sealed in the evil realm by Link and the Seven Sages. No Knights were present. The story of the Knights bears closer resemblance to the events leading up to FSA: "Hear now the doom of the knights. We were bested by a foe with a mighty weapon. He cast us into the Dark World...The man that defeated us is...A man from the desert wastes... He is not Vaati." Also note that he killed the Knights with a trident, which he did not have in OOT. I suppose you can write off some details of the Seal War story as historical inaccuracies but the growing amount of total discrepancies is becoming large enough that I would be embarassed to quote the Japanese ALTTP manual as a reference source.

To make the story short and sweet, Ganon got the Triforce, and was then sealed away until ALTTP, when Agahnim came along to open the Sages' Seal on the Dark World.

Now...if Ocarina of Time is the Seal War, then this basic fundamental plot point REALLY does not fit the story. As we all know, the adult branch leads directly into WW, and the child branch leads into TP. In either case, Ganon has not been sealed from OOT until ALTTP.

If you put ALTTP on the adult timeline, Ganon gets the Triforce (just ToP if you replace the Seal War details with OOT), the Seal War happens, and then he only has the ToP in WW, which he loses, is petrified under the sea with the Master Sword, and then somehow has the complete Triforce in ALTTP in what sure looks like Old Hyrule and the Master Sword is no longer under the ocean...?

If you include FSA: Ganon gets the Triforce (just ToP if you replace the Seal War details with OOT), the Seal War happens, and then he only has the ToP in WW, which he loses, is petrified under the sea with the Master Sword, reborn as a Gerudo (a Gerudo AGAIN?), sealed Triforceless in the Four Sword in the FS Sanctuary in the Light World (not the Dark World pyramid), and then somehow has the complete Triforce in ALTTP in what sure looks like Old Hyrule and the Master Sword is no longer under the ocean...?
(Not to mention that he somehow escaped the FS into the Light World, entered the Dark World, got the Triforce, and somehow the FS was moved to the Dark World pyramid!)

If you put ALTTP on the child timeline, first off you don't have the Seal War (assuming OOT=Seal War)...In TP Ganondorf recieves ToP, you could put FSA before or after TP, and there is still a lot of unanswered questions between either FSA and ALTTP or between TP and ALTTP. But it sure seems significantly cleaner than on the adult timeline.

----------------Conclusion----------------

So what we have here is one big, jumbled, confusing mess.
In the words of a spaced out hippie: "Simplify, man!"

I propose that NEITHER the U.S. or Japan ALTTP games or manuals are canon.
(The game limits the Seal War to "Three or four generations ago" 60-120 years)

Instead, I think that only the Game Boy Advance versions of ALTTP are canon.
1) First off, Ganondorf has been completely written out of the manual (purposefully removed).
2) There is still a great battle.
3) The Sages still seal some sort of evil in the Sacred Realm (puposefully vague).

I think that the "Seal War" has been replaced by the imprisonment of the
interloper-sorcerors in the Twilight Realm. It certainly fits the description of a great battle and an evil force in the Sacred Realm.

From TP:
"The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued...Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered. You know this magic...It is the dark power you seek...the Fused Shadow. O hero chosen by the goddesses... Beware...Those who do not know the danger of wielding power will, before long, be ruled by it."

So, I think that when the interlopers "tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm" the Sages sealed the entrance to nuetralize the threat of evil flowing out, and then the Light Spirits banished the interlopers to the Twilight Realm. Later, the Temple of Time was built to protect the seal. It's clean, it's simple. It's recent.
[Cites GBA ALTTP (2002) and TP, (2006)]

Ganon and his followers entering the Sacred Realm is no longer tied up in the details of the Sages' Seal, the Knights, the Master Sword, or the Seal War itself, which refers to the Twili sorcerers' imprisonment.

My thought is that Ganon and his followers enter the Sacred Realm in OOT, but it is NOT the Seal War (that was the Twili incident). When Ganon is sealed by the Sages at the end of OOT this is a separate incident.

THERE IS NO SEAL WAR! Only the Twili incident and Ganondorf being sealed at the end of OOT.

That's too long for me to read. So, you're proposing that the seal war where evil was sealed inside the SR was when the interlopers were sealed?

That would mean the Twilight Realm is the same as the Sacred Realm, which I don't believe.

I don't think I understand this, or how this would disrupt how people view the timeline:

.......TWW-ALttP
OoT<........./
........TP-ALttP

That is, putting ALttP after TWW or TP, which both come after OoT.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

That's too long for me to read. So, you're proposing that the seal war where evil was sealed inside the SR was when the interlopers were sealed?

Correct.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

That would mean the Twilight Realm is the same as the Sacred Realm, which I don't believe.

Incorrect. After the Sages' sealed the entrance to the Sacred Realm,
the Light Spirits banished the interlopers from the Sacred Realm
to the Twilight Realm.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

I don't think I understand this, or how this would disrupt how people view the timeline:

.......TWW-ALttP
OoT<........./
........TP-ALttP

That is, putting ALttP after TWW or TP, which both come after OoT.

How it affects the timeline:
1)ALTTP would not come after the WW.
2)The details about the Seal War given in the Japanese manual don't HAVE
to mesh with OOT.
3)The death of the Knights (leading into FSA) can be independent of OOT
[on the child timeline for example] alllowing for the existence of the Trident of Power.

Edit: We are pretty well hashing out the Gerudos in my timeline thread,
so please let's not discuss it here too.

Firstly, this manual was written in 1991 to describe the Creation of Hyrule, wars between the people over the Sacred Realm and the Triforce, the seizure of the Triforce by Ganondorf, and the Imprisoning War. Since 1991, these events have appeared and been described in other games, namely OoT, in a more updated fashion. For example, the more ambiguous "gods of power, wisdom, and courage" became "goddesses." Thus, OoT's depiction of events can be assumed to be more correct than ALttP's depiction, when they conflict or when OoT offers details that do not appear in ALttP. The same is true of TWW with respect to OoT, et cetera and so on.

The manual story in its entirety can be derived from the plot of OoT, thus the manual can be considered obsolete. If TWW wants to introduce the idea of a new kingdom and the original ALttP manual does not account for it, then TWW's picture trumps ALttP's picture. Obviously a New Hyrule had not been conceived at the time of the making of ALttP, so ALttP's manual cannot be expected to account for it.

Secondly, there is nothing in the Creation dialogue to suggest that it was written at the time of ALttP. It is written in retrospect of the Creation, describing the descendants of the Hylians, but "descendants of the Hylians" could appear any time after the Hylians first appear. The way this manual story is constructed, however, it was most likely written after the Imprisoning War, although we cannot say when this would have happened, beyond that.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

It says here that this Zelda game (ALTTP) is set in the land of Hyrule. Then the text goes on to reveal the history of this same land (Hyrule) that the three goddesses created. We know from the Deku Tree's tale that OOT Hyrule is the Hyrule created by the goddesses (a "New Hyrule" would not be the same land that was created before the Triforce). We can infer from this that ALTTP Hyrule is one and the same as OOT Hyrule. This is where the OOT -> WW -> ALTTP theory starts to break down.

1) The goddesses created the world, not just Hyrule. If the game is telling Hyrule's history, and takes place in a "New Hyrule," then the history of the "Old Hyrule" is relevant. Since most "New Hyrule" theorists believe that "New Hyrule" is constructed precisely where "Old Hyrule" once stood, there would certainly be Hylian relics there.

2) TP reveals that it is more accurate to say that the Hylians created Hyrule, and more accurate still to say that the Oocca created it.

I am open to the slim possibility that a post-WW wish on the Triforce can restore Old Hyrule, but the idea that ALTTP is in a "New Hyrule" seems absurd to me. Especially considering the monuments written in the ancient language decoded by the "Book of Mudora" (an item Link gets in ALTTP).

This could easily be referring to the language that is beginning to fade away in FSA rather than the language spoken by the peoples of OoT.

As well as how the Master Sword's placement in ALTTP matches that of TP. The Lost Woods in ALTTP = the Sacred Grove in TP (notice that the Sacred Grove's maze area plays the Lost Woods theme music). Further, in TP the Master Sword is in the Pedestal of Time, inside the ruins of the Temple of Time. By the time of ALTTP all that remains of the Temple of Time is the Pedestal in the clearing, and of course, the Master Sword. Other ties linking TP to ALTTP are details of Hyrule Castle, the throne, the sewers underneath the castle, and the ability to walk on the castle walls.

Indeed.

However, I should point out that:

1) There's no reason to believe that the Pedestal of Time should not exist in the Adult Timeline.
2) The Master Sword does not require three crests to remove it in TP.
3) Hyrule Castle in TP is identical to Hyrule Castle in TWW, even though they are on different timelines and Hyrule Castle from OoT is destroyed in the Adult Timeline. Ergo, the castles being similar has little weight, since all Hyrule Castles are similar.

Note that this is present-tense "Hyrule...is[not was] an area..." this means that the Hyrule seen in ALTTP is where the relics have been left.

1) The Hyrule seen in ALttP may very well be the "same" Hyrule seen in OoT, just after flooding and with a new society/kingdom.
2) This could simply be referring to the new land called Hyrule, where Hylian relics have been left (Hylian descendants are said in the ALttP manual to have "spread to all parts of the world" - the flood is, to date, the only canonical explanation for this).

This spilling of blood brings to mind the great battle mentioned in TP: "For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..."

Which also brings to mind the "fierce wars" during "Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred" before OoT. In fact, I would say that the "great battle" and the "fierce wars" are precisely the same, since after both the Sheikah are said to have died out.

In OOT Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm by chance because Link pulled the Master Sword, in other words LINK opened the entrance. This passage said that the thieves opened it, not Link. Also note, it wasn't just the leader, but the group that is credited with opening it.

Link removed the "final key" on the Sacred Realm and opened the Door of Time, but we do not know what precisely this means with respect to the entrance to the Sacred Realm itself.

We see the changing of eye color in the cut-scene in TP where the people (represented by Link and Ilia) battle over the Sacred Realm.

We know for a fact that the Twili survived that battle, however, whereas Ganondorf killed all his followers.

Note the wording "race of evil thieves", the Gerudo consider themselves to be "noble thieves".

In FSA.

As Nabooru says: " I'm Nabooru of the Gerudo. I'm a lone wolf thief. But don't get me wrong! Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"

Nabooru is an exception, not the rule.

And the Gerudo aren't particularly evil, in FSA it is Ganondorf who broke thier laws

FSA =/= OoT.

Although some claim that the Gerudo in OOT are fiercer than those in FSA why is it that they are staying in the desert, and not sharing Ganondorf's success?

Because Ganondorf is a sick bastard and doesn't share success with anyone.

I think that the term "evil thieves" more accurately describes the thieves who inhabit ALTTP's Lost Woods, FSA's Kakariko Village, and ALTTP's Thieves Town (the Dark World version of Kakariko Village). My thought is that perhaps the original Ganondorf may have been one of THESE thieves, then starred in TLOZ, and then been reborn as a Gerudo for OOT.

They're not a race of evil thieves, however, they're just evil thieves.

This certainly doesn't mesh with OOT. If OOT is the Seal War, then the Sages would have known exactly where the Master Sword was (in the Temple of Time).

It wasn't in the Temple of Time, though.

And the sage descendants know exactly where the Master Sword is in ALttP, anyway.

This TRULY cannot be OOT. Ganon was sealed in the evil realm by Link and the Seven Sages. No Knights were present.

That's because the knights died when Ganon attacked the castle, which is why we don't see any of them in the Adult future.

Let's break down the narrative, though.

"However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace."

Yes; Ganon's malice encloses on the palace before Link appears.

"Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one."

This actually conflicts, but it should be noted that the word for "battle" can also mean "war" or "struggle," so this isn't necessarily referring to a single armed struggle.

"The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted"

This is why they're all dead in the future, and why there are bones scattered about the road to Ganon's Tower.

"this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal."

Which OoT depicts as giving Zelda a chance to escape Ganon's clutches in order to rally Link to her cause and rescue the other sages so that they can complete their seal.

To make the story short and sweet, Ganon got the Triforce, and was then sealed away until ALTTP, when Agahnim came along to open the Sages' Seal on the Dark World.

Ganon touched the Triforce, used its power to attack Hyrule, causing the sages to seal the Sacred Realm.

This is precisely what the IW narrative says.
This is precisely what happens in OoT.

As for ALttP:

Agahnim is kidnapping maidens descended from the seven sages in order to break the sages' seal so Ganon can rule both Light and Dark Worlds with the Triforce.

Okay, so the IW/OoT flows into ALttP great when the two main plots are by themselves, ignoring the inconsistencies like Ganon having the whole Triforce in ALttP and not being able to leave the Dark World after he enters.

However, I would argue that this is precisely why intermission stories like TWW and FSA are necessary for ALttP to exist.

TWW provides a situation in which the Triforce is reunited, which fixes the problem of it being separated. FSA provides a situation in which Ganon is once again sealed, this time never crossing between worlds to our knowledge.

So, while TWW and FSA add things that aren't referenced in the ALttP story to the story of Ganon, they also add those things that were missing from OoT.

If you put ALTTP on the adult timeline, Ganon gets the Triforce (just ToP if you replace the Seal War details with OOT), the Seal War happens, and then he only has the ToP in WW, which he loses, is petrified under the sea with the Master Sword, and then somehow has the complete Triforce in ALTTP in what sure looks like Old Hyrule and the Master Sword is no longer under the ocean...?

He only has the Triforce of Power in OoT, which the game writer has himself stated was designed to be the IW. Ergo, Ganon only has the ToP in the IW, until another scenario is shown to us.

As for the Master Sword, TMC and PH show us that sacred blades can be reforged...not that OoS/OoA don't give us an alternate origin for the Master Sword anyway (reforged/sharpened/given by the Zoras, the first two follow the sacred blade being reforged thing, and the second one could very well explain how the Master Sword ceased to be under the waves). Of course, the Salvage Corps. from TWW are searching for treasure at the bottom of the ocean, which could allow the Master Sword to be found anyway.

(Not to mention that he somehow escaped the FS into the Light World, entered the Dark World, got the Triforce, and somehow the FS was moved to the Dark World pyramid!)

The Maidens place a seal on the FS at the end of FSA that looks precisely like the seal shown as being cast on Ganon in an old piece of official art for ALttP. I'd say they sealed the FS in the Dark World so evil dudes would stop escaping from it.

(The game limits the Seal War to "Three or four generations ago" 60-120 years)

This is a translation error.

Instead, I think that only the Game Boy Advance versions of ALTTP are canon.
1) First off, Ganondorf has been completely written out of the manual (purposefully removed).
2) There is still a great battle.
3) The Sages still seal some sort of evil in the Sacred Realm (puposefully vague).

All of this removes your principal argument against OoT=IW, that being that Ganon being sealed in the IW matters to ALttP.

Clearly, based on your evidence, the only thing that matters is the seal on the Sacred Realm and the battle. If ALttP is in the Adult Timeline, this happens to work perfectly if the battle is OoT.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

^This is very important. It says here that this Zelda game (ALTTP) is set in the land of Hyrule. Then the text goes on to reveal the history of this same land (Hyrule) that the three goddesses created. We know from the Deku Tree's tale that OOT Hyrule is the Hyrule created by the goddesses (a "New Hyrule" would not be the same land that was created before the Triforce). We can infer from this that ALTTP Hyrule is one and the same as OOT Hyrule. This is where the OOT -> WW -> ALTTP theory starts to break down.

I believe the GBA manual to be more canon than the SNES manual, but eh, I'll play along :]

-When the SNES manual was made, no world-wide flood had been planned yet, so there's no reason for them to separate your current playing area and ancient Hyrule.
-Hyrule refers to a larger area than just "main" Hyrule
-GBA version just refers to the Deities creating this world, not the specific nation you are in.

I am open to the slim possibility that a post-WW wish on the Triforce can restore Old Hyrule, but the idea that ALTTP is in a "New Hyrule" seems absurd to me. Especially considering the monuments written in the ancient language decoded by the "Book of Mudora" (an item Link gets in ALTTP). As well as how the Master Sword's placement in ALTTP matches that of TP. The Lost Woods in ALTTP = the Sacred Grove in TP (notice that the Sacred Grove's maze area plays the Lost Woods theme music). Further, in TP the Master Sword is in the Pedestal of Time, inside the ruins of the Temple of Time. By the time of ALTTP all that remains of the Temple of Time is the Pedestal in the clearing, and of course, the Master Sword. Other ties linking TP to ALTTP are details of Hyrule Castle, the throne, the sewers underneath the castle, and the ability to walk on the castle walls.

-There was no reason for Hylian to be forgotten on the child timeline, nor for Hylians to go extinct. Both are happening in WW.
-The Sacred Grove of TP is nowhere near the Sacred Grove of aLttP. The Forest of Light in FSA gets turned into the Lost Woods in FSA, and it's in the same place. In aLttP, it gets it's name changed to the Forest of Light again, showing a clear connection.
-The Koroks success would create new land, and help deflood the old land revealing ancient artifacts with Hylian writing.

^This spilling of blood brings to mind the great battle mentioned in TP: "For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body...But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..."

The quote is from TP, but refers to a pre-OoT event. No contradiction.

Incidentally, some have speculated that the "race of people in the high mountains" are the Gorons, but look at the quote further: "the graves of the race of people in the high mountains". Note the wording "the graves of". The word "of" represents possession, as if the graves belong to the people. This sounds much more like the Sheikah, who have profound connections to Kakariko's Graveyard (which is at the foot of Death Mountain) not to mention Hidden Village in the mountains of TP.

Kakariko village in OoT is on the far east side. In aLttP it's on the far west.
The graveyard in OoT is on the far east side. In aLttP it's northcentral.
I know you believe some of the directions are slightly distorted, and I agree, but this is exact opposite.

OOT says this about the Sheikah and graveyards: "R.I.P. Here lie the souls of those who swore fealty to the Royal Family of Hyrule The Sheikah, guardians of the Royal Family and founders of Kakariko, watch over these spirits in their eternal slumber."

No reference to them being mountain people.

^In OOT Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm by chance because Link pulled the Master Sword, in other words LINK opened the entrance. This passage said that the thieves opened it, not Link. Also note, it wasn't just the leader, but the group that is credited with opening it.

It was "by chance/suddenly/unexpectedly" that Link opened it, unaware of what the consequences were.
It was opened by Ganondorf because he was the one orchestrating it. He implies as much.

^We see the changing of eye color in the cut-scene in TP where the people (represented by Link and Ilia) battle over the Sacred Realm.

Once again, that's a pre-OoT event, so it's no detriment to the OoT=IW concept. The translator notes state that's metaphorical speak for saying they were frenzied.

^Note the wording "race of evil thieves", the Gerudo consider themselves to be "noble thieves". As Nabooru says: " I'm Nabooru of the Gerudo. I'm a lone wolf thief. But don't get me wrong! Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"

Only Nabooru claims to be noble. Nothing implies the rest are noble.

And the Gerudo aren't particularly evil, in FSA it is Ganondorf who broke thier laws:
"The village is in a bit of an uproar contending with a man who broke our laws." and "To have a criminal such as him enter... His presence stains its holy ground." and "Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price." and "Curse that Ganondorf! He broke our laws and left for the pyramid..." and "Yes, this Ganondorf you speak of is a member of the Gerudo. But his intent is unknown to me. He has flouted the law and fled for the pyramid. To reach the pyramid, one must first pass the trial of the Desert Temple. The villain Ganondorf will no doubt draw his last breath failing this trial."

It doesn't matter if the FSA Gerudos are evil or not. If the IW=OoT, it only matters if the OoT Gerudos are evil.

Clearly, the Gerudos aren't particularly devoted to evil. Only Ganondorf and Twinrova (who lives far from the camp) are genuinely evil. Although some claim that the Gerudo in OOT are fiercer than those in FSA why is it that they are staying in the desert, and not sharing Ganondorf's success? Indeed they destroyed the bridge leading to Ganon's Castle. Ganon literally "burnt his bridges behind him" in a manner of speaking. To be sure they refer to him as "the great Ganondorf", but I think they are merely showing the proper respect for their fated king.

Why would they show their proper respect in one game, and banish him in another?
Perhaps we should make a specific thread for FSA/OoT Gerudo talk

I think that the term "evil thieves" more accurately describes the thieves who inhabit ALTTP's Lost Woods, FSA's Kakariko Village, and ALTTP's Thieves Town (the Dark World version of Kakariko Village). My thought is that perhaps the original Ganondorf may have been one of THESE thieves, then starred in TLOZ, and then been reborn as a Gerudo for OOT.

They aren't a race of thieves though. They are humans who are thieves. The Gerudos are a race of thieves.

^This certainly doesn't mesh with OOT. If OOT is the Seal War, then the Sages would have known exactly where the Master Sword was (in the Temple of Time).

The sages at the time of the IW don't have to be the sages who forged the sword.

^This TRULY cannot be OOT. Ganon was sealed in the evil realm by Link and the Seven Sages. No Knights were present. The story of the Knights bears closer resemblance to the events leading up to FSA: "Hear now the doom of the knights. We were bested by a foe with a mighty weapon. He cast us into the Dark World...The man that defeated us is...A man from the desert wastes... He is not Vaati." Also note that he killed the Knights with a trident, which he did not have in OOT. I suppose you can write off some details of the Seal War story as historical inaccuracies but the growing amount of total discrepancies is becoming large enough that I would be embarassed to quote the Japanese ALTTP manual as a reference source.

The Knights of OoT were killed by Ganon. We see soldiers all over the place in the child side, but they're all gone on the adult side.
They didn't die at the exact time of the casting of the seal, but neither did the FSA ones, and there were no sages or knights involved at all in the Interloper story. Just light spirits.

To make the story short and sweet, Ganon got the Triforce, and was then sealed away until ALTTP, when Agahnim came along to open the Sages' Seal on the Dark World.

Nothing says Ganon has been sealed away from the time of the IW. The fact that the GBA manual removes Ganon from the story of the Seal War furthers the idea that Seal War Ganon doesn't have to be aLttP Ganon.

Now...if Ocarina of Time is the Seal War, then this basic fundamental plot point REALLY does not fit the story. As we all know, the adult branch leads directly into WW, and the child branch leads into TP. In either case, Ganon has not been sealed from OOT until ALTTP.

The basic fundamental plot is the Sacred Realm being sealed off.

If you put ALTTP on the adult timeline, Ganon gets the Triforce (just ToP if you replace the Seal War details with OOT), the Seal War happens, and then he only has the ToP in WW, which he loses, is petrified under the sea with the Master Sword, and then somehow has the complete Triforce in ALTTP in what sure looks like Old Hyrule and the Master Sword is no longer under the ocean...?

They don't have to be the same Ganon.
The Master Sword is recovered by a Zora in OoX.

If you put ALTTP on the child timeline, first off you don't have the Seal War (assuming OOT=Seal War)...In TP Ganondorf recieves ToP, you could put FSA before or after TP, and there is still a lot of unanswered questions between either FSA and ALTTP or between TP and ALTTP. But it sure seems significantly cleaner than on the adult timeline.

TP cannot come between the Creation and the Seal War. The Triforce has to be in the Sacred Realm the whole time.

I propose that NEITHER the U.S. or Japan ALTTP games or manuals are canon.
(The game limits the Seal War to "Three or four generations ago" 60-120 years)

the GBA game took out the "3 or 4 generations"
there is no limit

1) First off, Ganondorf has been completely written out of the manual (purposefully removed).

1: To put the emphasis back on the seal, and prove Seal War Ganon doesn't have to be aLttP Ganon, since Seal War Ganon was killed in WW.

I think that the "Seal War" has been replaced by the imprisonment of the
interloper-sorcerors in the Twilight Realm. It certainly fits the description of a great battle and an evil force in the Sacred Realm.

The great battle precedes the Seal War. The Interlopers were part of the great battle.

So, I think that when the interlopers "tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm" the Sages sealed the entrance to nuetralize the threat of evil flowing out, and then the Light Spirits banished the interlopers to the Twilight Realm. Later, the Temple of Time was built to protect the seal. It's clean, it's simple. It's recent.

Why are Link and Ganon able to exit the Sacred Realm at will in OoT if it was sealed prior to that?

THERE IS NO SEAL WAR! Only the Twili incident and Ganondorf being sealed at the end of OOT.

So a few very slight inaccuracies in OoT make it unable to be the Seal War in entirety...but it's okay for the Seal War to be mixed up stories of events from two different timelines?

Anyway...I know Lex replied to this while I'm typing, so I apologize for any re-hash.

Perhaps a better answer to all this:

The seal war could be the war that took place after Link goes back in time and leaves on his journey to Termina? That is when a battles takes place (with the soldiers and sages) and the sages then seal Ganondorf... Just an idea though.

Personally I preferred it when TWW and TP weren't around.

TWW mixed things up further... to the point where I just considered it on its own arc.

TP then mixed things up further (making ALttP out of place) so I just either consider that to replace ALttP (with AlttP on another arc) or TP on another arc and Alttp in TP's place after OOt young ending.

TWW never needed to come after OoT and nor did TP. I see it more as Nintendo pleasing the fans and Nintendo should just stick to making games in their own arcs and only sharing similar details and easter eggs and stuff.

I like it better that way... seriously... it's sort of a bit messy and a bit embarressing... I mean, people trying to put 12 different games into one timeline? Or into a split-timeline? Ridiculous. Not only is it easier to have games in small arcs or on their own it makes the series classier too. I'm not saying people can't make timeline theories... but those with better things to do won't bother with them.

Originally Posted by Ganon the King

Perhaps a better answer to all this:

The seal war could be the war that took place after Link goes back in time and leaves on his journey to Termina? That is when a battles takes place (with the soldiers and sages) and the sages then seal Ganondorf... Just an idea though.

This could very well be the case, but it carries the same flaw that makes OoT=IW implausible to most people - Ganon has to be stuck in the sealed realm later in the timeline, long after it is sealed, and he can't be the Ganon from the IW.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

OoT...more correct than ALttP'...The same is true of TWW with respect to OoT, et cetera and so on.

The theory stating "OOT=IW" is based on the assumption that ALTTP refers to
the events of OOT, perhaps OOT replaces it and updates the details, but the
theory still says that ALTTP refers to OOT, therefore the manual IS important.

Why is it important? Because the converse theory is that ALTTP refers to events
accurately, but NOT the events of OOT. This is the theory I am discussing in this thread.

At the end I mentioned my personal theory that the 16-bit manuals have been
completely rewritten from the ground up.

SO, if you think that ALTTP refers to the events in OOT the old manual is very
important, because you are assuming the description is inaccurate (rather than
an accurate depiction of non-OOT events.)

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Since most "New Hyrule" theorists believe that "New Hyrule" is constructed precisely where "Old Hyrule" once stood, there would certainly be Hylian relics there.

And how do you figure that? Old Hyrule is buried under the sea and destroyed, yet
relics on a new land (not Old Hyrule) are still around? Are you suggesting that Old
Hyrule was brought to the surface? 'Cause that's not how the New Hyrule theory goes...

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

TP reveals that it is more accurate to say that the Hylians created Hyrule, and more accurate still to say that the Oocca created it.

Actually the goddesses created the Light World, the Hylians created Hyrule,
and the Oocca created the Hylians.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

This could easily be referring to the language that is beginning to fade away in FSA rather than the language spoken by the peoples of OoT.

I don't recall any language fading away in FSA...?

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

1) There's no reason to believe that the Pedestal of Time should not exist in the Adult Timeline.
2) The Master Sword does not require three crests to remove it in TP.
3) Hyrule Castle in TP is identical to Hyrule Castle in TWW, even though they are on different timelines and Hyrule Castle from OoT is destroyed in the Adult Timeline. Ergo, the castles being similar has little weight, since all Hyrule Castles are similar.

1) The Master Sword was placed underneath Hyrule Castle, and not returned to
the Temple of Time. In a "New Hyrule" the Pedestal would be undersea.
2) And...?
3)Going in the sewers etc in TP is a valid argument because it creates a
parallel (or a flashback) in gamer's minds that says "Hey, I was here in another game"

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Link removed the "final key" on the Sacred Realm and opened the Door of Time, but we do not know what precisely this means with respect to the entrance to the Sacred Realm itself.

While that sword is indeed
the blade of evil's bane, at the same time,
it has long played another role...

You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!

Since Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm in OOT.
And he mentions the sword sealing him away, and the fact
that the sword originally sealed the Sacred Realm...

We can conclude that the seal on Ganondorf IS the seal on the SR,
and likewise that withdrawing the sword opens and closes the SR.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

We know for a fact that the Twili survived that battle, however, whereas Ganondorf killed all his followers.

And...? This is an example of what happened to their eyes not a literal depiction
of the event.

-------------------------

The Gerudo in FSA clearly share all of the characteristics of the Gerudo in OOT.
OOT merely shows their culture in upheaval due to the brainwashing of Twinrova.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

They're not a race of evil thieves, however, they're just evil thieves.

Prove it.

This certainly doesn't mesh with OOT. If OOT is the Seal War, then the Sages would have known exactly where the Master Sword was (in the Temple of Time).

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

It wasn't in the Temple of Time, though.

The Sages knew the sword was in the Temple of Time, Rauru watched over
Link while he was in the Temple of Light, and the other Sages were not called yet,
much less searching for the Master Sword. No Sages in OOT were looking for the
Master Sword.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

That's because the knights died when Ganon attacked the castle, which is why we don't see any of them in the Adult future.

There is no evidence that there were any knights in OOT. We only see soldiers.
The story says the knights died to protect the Sages who were casting a seal,
not before Ganondorf entered the SR.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

All of this removes your principal argument against OoT=IW, that being that Ganon being sealed in the IW matters to ALttP.

No kidding. This refers to the afterword describing a second theory.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Clearly, based on your evidence, the only thing that matters is the seal on the Sacred Realm and the battle. If ALttP is in the Adult Timeline, this happens to work perfectly if the battle is OoT.

There is no way that the events in the ALTTP manual are the events in OOT.
If you think that OOT REPLACES the ALTTP manual
that is fine, but in that case it is far better to say that nothing in the ALTTP manual
is correct, because it is clearly radically different from OOT, and not at all similar.

Reply to Mr. Lexxi Aileron's first post completed.