Minish Cap vs. Ocarina of Time

[Purplemaker]

Lately, I've been seeing alot of timelines that place MC first instead of Oot. I think that placing MC before Oot is a mistake. Here's why:

-According to what I've read from most people, they place the Minish Cap first because they believe that is the origin of Link's green cap. If this is the case, obviously the Kokiri in Oot were emulating this. But we do not get an explanation in Oot as to why the Kokiri wore green. And even if they were indeed paying their respect to the hero in MC, why, specifically, did they feel the need to? What affliation did the Kokiri have to the hero in MC apart from the other races in Hyrule?
-Just because the cap wasn't included in the hero's wardrobe in MC at first doesn't mean that was the first time the hat appeared in a Zelda game. Maybe MC was on the child timeline, so the MC hero didn't know about a Hero of Time, and therefore, wasn't trying to dress like him.

In conclusion, I just want to hear from where other people are coming from. Then maybe I'll be more willing to accept the 'MC first' timeline.

[Erimgard]

I'm pretty opposed to MC first.
I personally place it post-flood in the adult timeline.

-People called humans and no mention of Hylians is made
-Triforce is downplayed and possibly forgotten
-Reference to "Triumph Forks", a term only used in WW
-Hyrule is an island
-MC's backstory fits poorly pre-OoT
-MC geography is too close too that of FSA/aLttP and too different to that of OoT
-Why would they put many games and a lot of time in between the Vaati games?

[Goronlove7]

OoT is first because.... well actually I had a good reason but the mixed power of Emigard and Hombre de Mundo crushed it.

[Cukeman]

I think OOT Ganondorf is FSA Ganondorf in the child branch,
therefore Vaati appears twice after TMC before appearing in FSA.

that is why my timeline goes

TMC -> FS back story -> OOT -> FS -> FSA -> MM -> TP

[Purplemaker]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I'm pretty opposed to MC first.
I personally place it post-flood in the adult timeline.

-People called humans and no mention of Hylians is made
-Triforce is downplayed and possibly forgotten
-Reference to "Triumph Forks", a term only used in WW
-Hyrule is an island
-MC's backstory fits poorly pre-OoT
-MC geography is too close too that of FSA/aLttP and too different to that of OoT
-Why would they put many games and a lot of time in between the Vaati games?

Really? I didn't know about the "Triumph Forks" or that Hyrule was an island.
Well, I'm persuaded. I guess MC is on the adult timeline.

[Aralith]

It's not just about the hat, though that certainly is one reason that I place it there. Another, far better reason, is that in MC there is a hero only referred to as the hero of men. Not the Hero of Time, or the Hero of Winds, or any other title. The words hero of men are not even capitalized, signifying that it is not even a title. Also, this hero of men did not wear a cap. I am led to assume then that this is someone other than Link. If we place MC anywhere other than first, then we beg the question: Why would these Hylians remember this hero of old whom the Picori Blade was first given to, but not the other Links that came (assumed) after the hero of men? If we place it post flood like Erimgard suggests, then that means at least two Links (Hero of Time in OoT, and Hero of Winds in WW and PH) had been forgotten, but that memories of this hero of men remained. I highly doubt it.

[Erimgard]

Aralith, show me one game at all where multiple heroes are referenced.

Why would they talk about multiple ones? The hero of time was not relevant to the MC plot.
If MC takes place on a new Hyrule, or the Koroks Hyrule, post-flood, there would be no reason to mention the Hero of Time. He had nothing to do with the monsters of the MC backstory, the Picori Blade, or the Light Force.
The only hero mentioned is the one who actually had relevance to the plot.

[Purplemaker]

Originally Posted by Aralith

It's not just about the hat, though that certainly is one reason that I place it there. Another, far better reason, is that in MC there is a hero only referred to as the hero of men. Not the Hero of Time, or the Hero of Winds, or any other title. The words hero of men are not even capitalized, signifying that it is not even a title. Also, this hero of men did not wear a cap. I am led to assume then that this is someone other than Link. If we place MC anywhere other than first, then we beg the question: Why would these Hylians remember this hero of old whom the Picori Blade was first given to, but not the other Links that came (assumed) after the hero of men? If we place it post flood like Erimgard suggests, then that means at least two Links (Hero of Time in OoT, and Hero of Winds in WW and PH) had been forgotten, but that memories of this hero of men remained. I highly doubt it.

Maybe the hyrule in MC is the new Hyrule that Link and Tetra set out to find in WW/PH. (Which would explain why it's an island.) And in this new hyrule they forget about the hero of time/winds over time. (I think it' likely. In WW, people forgot that Hyrule even exsisted over hundreds of years.) And either:

A) Gustaf is became the new king of this land.
B) Gustaf's story is a varition of the Hero of Time's story. (Or the Hero of winds.)

[Aralith]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Aralith, show me one game at all where multiple heroes are referenced.

Why would they talk about multiple ones? The hero of time was not relevant to the MC plot.
If MC takes place on a new Hyrule, or the Koroks Hyrule, post-flood, there would be no reason to mention the Hero of Time. He had nothing to do with the monsters of the MC backstory, the Picori Blade, or the Light Force.
The only hero mentioned is the one who actually had relevance to the plot.

You are completely right that the Hero of Time is irrelevant. However, if it was in fact the Koroks success that resulted in deflooded Hyrule (which I believe it was), then why wouldn't they even mention this flood, or the hero that appeared after the flood? WW was the first game that really tried to establish continuity in the series. Hence the whole backstory about the Hero of Time and why the flood happened. The only other reason for mentioning the Hero of Time in that whole game was for the stupid, unnecessary, and quite honestly unimportant plot point of having WW Link be the Hero of Time reincarnate.

Since it was unnecessary, I can't help but feel the only real reason for including the Hero of Time backstory in WW was for continuity purposes. And since MC was created after WW, why wouldn't they try to establish the same continuity by perhaps mentioning that the Hyrule we were looking at at least was at one point flooded. Even just a vague little reference like that would be fine. But did they? No. Instead they gave us a backstory for a hero and didn't try to establish continuity. What would be the reason for their being no established continuity you ask? Only one that I can think of. It was the first in the timeline and therefore wouldn't have any true connections to other games. At least not any that would be immediately noticeable.

[Erimgard]

There was no need to reference the events of WW because that was about MC.
I believe MC to take place quite a while after WW.

And while you may just write this off as a cameo:
Din and Nayru are mentioned in MC as dancers from the land of Holodrum and and Labrynna, hinting at a post OoX placement.
There are Maku trees in those games which I believe to be a hint at the Deku trees success.

[Hombre de Mundo]

Originally Posted by Purplemaker

A) Gustaf is became the new king of this land.
B) Gustaf's story is a varition of the Hero of Time's story. (Or the Hero of winds.)

I hope you're not implying that Gustaf is the Hero of Men

You are completely right that the Hero of Time is irrelevant. However, if it was in fact the Koroks success that resulted in deflooded Hyrule (which I believe it was), then why wouldn't they even mention this flood, or the hero that appeared after the flood?

Why would the mention the flood? Hardly anyone in tWW mentioned it, and after another couple of hundred or thousand years, there's absolutely no reason anyone would remember it, especially since something new came around, like the hero of men. It's like, nobody talks about the 30-year war in Europe which occured in the 17th century, but many people are talking about WW2.

The argument of continuity isn't doesn't quite hold, IMO. tWW is directly linked to OoT and share a number of things (same Ganon, Master Sword, ancient Hylian language, ToC left in OoT and picked up in WW, etc and so on). They didn't mention it just because they wanted it to connect for the heck of it, it was a main part of the story. tMC doesn't have anything to do with other games, so they didn't say "after the flood, blah blah blah" but instead left a few hints here and there, like the Triumph Forks, the Goron Merchant, the sea, etc.

Another thing you might want to look at is technology and living standards. OoT being first makes much sense since it has a much more midieval feel to it than other Zelda games.

[omega12]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I'm pretty opposed to MC first.
I personally place it post-flood in the adult timeline.

-People called humans and no mention of Hylians is made
-Triforce is downplayed and possibly forgotten
-Reference to "Triumph Forks", a term only used in WW
-Hyrule is an island
-MC's backstory fits poorly pre-OoT
-MC geography is too close too that of FSA/aLttP and too different to that of OoT
-Why would they put many games and a lot of time in between the Vaati games?

actually the triforce is not forgotten, i am almsot sure that on the bell in hyrule castle town, there is a triforce on the bell.

Also vaati is lookin for the light force, however it seems
1. Link is not related to the hero(s), so he can not hold the triforce.
2. Ganon is dead, and the holder of the Triforce of power, no ganon, no need for link to have the triforce of courage, however Zelda is still alive, thats why she has the Lightforce (or triforce of wisdom).

2 good reasons why the triforce is not directly mentioned.

[Evilsbane]

Originally Posted by Purplemaker

In conclusion, I just want to hear from where other people are coming from. Then maybe I'll be more willing to accept the 'MC first' timeline.

-TMC is before FS/FSA, but FS/FSA seems to place itself immediately after OoT in my estimation

-Not only does Link not have the hat but the hero of men didn't either

-Wind Tribe seem to be early Oocca

-Hyrule has not been unified (Death Mountain isn't even a feature)

-End Sequence says it was Link's first adventure

-most importantly, the Minish are responsible for the construction of Armos Statues, creation of Pegasus Boots and hiding items under rocks and things. If the Minish came through the door in Hyrule Castle, then it wouldn't have survived the flood. So you have the dilemma of either the Minish arriving after the flood even though OoT features their handiwork, or they arrived before OoT and Hyrule Castle somehow survived flawlessy, Minish Door and all, through the flood until the time that post-flooders place TMC.

Now alternatively, you could say that TMC is late in the Child Timeline, and I couldn't argue with you, but noone ever seems to hold that opinion.

[Hombre de Mundo]

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

-TMC is before FS/FSA, but FS/FSA seems to place itself immediately after OoT in my estimation

Force gems in FSA and PH?
FSA on an island?
FSA's connection with ALttP?

-Wind Tribe seem to be early Oocca

Why early Oocca? Why not late Rito, sine they are more human-like than Oocca?

-Hyrule has not been unified (Death Mountain isn't even a feature)

If there are no other kingdoms or anything, how can you assume Hyrule isn't unified? The absence of Death Mountain could mean more than one thing. For example:

- Due to flooding, Death Mountain is still underwater.
- Mt. Crenel was later renamed Death Mountain.

-End Sequence says it was Link's first adventure

As far as we know, it was Link's only adventure, sing as how tMC Link doesn't star in any other game.

-most importantly, the Minish are responsible for the construction of Armos Statues

In tMC, ya. But does that mean they must've been the creator of all Armos statues throughout the times?

creation of Pegasus Boots

Which are non-presant in OoT.

and hiding items under rocks and things.

I can go outside and find an item under a rock. I doubt it's the work of the Minish.

[TheManInTheMoon]

In tMC, ya. But does that mean they must've been the creator of all Armos statues throughout the times?

I should bring up that the Armos already had an explanation: they were petrified soldiers of Hyrule.

So you have the dilemma of either the Minish arriving after the flood even though OoT features their handiwork, or they arrived before OoT and Hyrule Castle somehow survived flawlessy, Minish Door and all, through the flood until the time that post-flooders place TMC.

The location of the entrance of the Realm of the Four Sword (presumably the Elemental Sanctuary) changes from game to game.

[Purplemaker]

Originally Posted by Evilsbane

-Not only does Link not have the hat but the hero of men didn't either

As I said in the first post, just because he (and the hero of men) don't have the hat doesn't mean that this is automatically the origin of the hat in the entire Zelda series. TMC could've taken place looooong after the hero of time and therefore, people could have forgotten about the hero of time/winds and stop honoring them by donning green. And even if this isn't the case, who says every hero(Gustaf aka not Link.) in Hyrule has to wear a green hat

-Hyrule has not been unified (Death Mountain isn't even a feature)

Hyrule is an island,from what I hear. How can Hyrule go from being an island to what it was in Oot? Just because Death Mountain wasn't there doesn't mean it takes place before Oot. Loz and Aol are missing some places, that doesn't mean that they take place before Oot.

-End Sequence says it was Link's first adventure

It could have been that specific Link's first adventure.

-most importantly, the Minish are responsible for the construction of Armos Statues, creation of Pegasus Boots and hiding items under rocks and things. If the Minish came through the door in Hyrule Castle, then it wouldn't have survived the flood. So you have the dilemma of either the Minish arriving after the flood even though OoT features their handiwork, or they arrived before OoT and Hyrule Castle somehow survived flawlessy, Minish Door and all, through the flood until the time that post-flooders place TMC.

The Minish could have come post WW/PH. At either the new Hyrule or Hyrule deflooded. As for the ruppees and armoses, you got me there. But that's not enough to convince me that MC is pre Oot.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by omega12

actually the triforce is not forgotten, i am almsot sure that on the bell in hyrule castle town, there is a triforce on the bell.

I believe that the Triforce is only remembered as the symbol of the royal family personally.

Also vaati is lookin for the light force, however it seems
1. Link is not related to the hero(s), so he can not hold the triforce.
2. Ganon is dead, and the holder of the Triforce of power, no ganon, no need for link to have the triforce of courage, however Zelda is still alive, thats why she has the Lightforce (or triforce of wisdom).

1.You don't have to be related to a hero to have the Triforce.
2. If MC is pre-OoT, then why would Vaati be interested in something other than the Triforce? It was the most powerful artifact in the world.

[Skylark]

Well, since MC by default is connected to FSA (and thus Alttp) and I do not see how the MS just randomly goes from Ganondorf's head at the bottom of the Great Sea to the lost woods. I would place it first personally.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Skylarkff

Well, since MC by default is connected to FSA (and thus Alttp) and I do not see how the MS just randomly goes from Ganondorf's head at the bottom of the Great Sea to the lost woods. I would place it first personally.

Well, I personally have OoX prior to MC, and in OoA a Zora gives you a sword which is powered up to become the MS.

[Skylark]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Well, I personally have OoX prior to MC, and in OoA a Zora gives you a sword which is powered up to become the MS.

Because an old man can just randomly create the blade of evil's bane? It might be a master sword. But I doubt it is the Master Sword. How do you explain the Twinrova problem?

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Skylarkff

Because an old man can just randomly create the blade of evil's bane? It might be a master sword. But I doubt it is the Master Sword. How do you explain the Twinrova problem?

Either a reincarnation, or a fulfillment of their promise to haunt Link.
We see other people linger around after their death to do stuff, and even 'die' a second time.