Zora to Rito...? What?!

[Aralith]

Okay, I know that there already has been some doubt placed on the belief that the Rito evolved from the Zora, but I was playing WW yesterday and came across the Rito again and really began to question it. I think I can pretty much disprove any connection between them, except perhaps with Medli, though I have an explanation for them. Before I begin, I must stress that I am basing my knowledge of evolution purely on an earthly one. It could work differently in Hyrule, but since we cannot judge one way or another, I am going to assume that evolution works the same way in Hyrule as it does in the real world. Okay, so here goes.

First off, how or why would a fish species evolve into anything else after a Great Flood caused the entire world to be their own freaking habitat.

Secondly, if Dragon Roost Island is indeed Death Mountain, then why would the Gorons be salesman on the sea if their home is still above water? And the fact their bird leads me right into point three.

Why in the world would a bird species be flying around a volcano? One that is clearly still active. WTF? Granted this was the developers mistake, but still, pretty stupid.


Fourth, according to statements by Aonuma, WW takes place just over one hundred years after OoT. Even if the Zora could evolve into Rito, it would take far longer than that.

Fifth, even if the Zora did magically evolve into the Rito, why would the Zora be gone as well? While natural selection does involve death of another species to give way to a better one, the previous species only dies if their habitat ceases to exist or a better hunter kills all of them. Since the Zora are an intelligent race, and because their habitat is now most of the world, even if some Zora did evolve into Rito, some Zora would still remain.

And finally, all the Zora have red eyes. Before WW, this was a trait known only to appear in the Shiekah. This is, of course, with the exception of Kafei, but he may be a Shiekah. Cannot say for sure, but then again, Termina is an alternate world and not exactly parallel to Hyrule in every respect it would seem, as the Shiekah are not in MM. Anyways, yeah, red eyes only appeared in Shiekah before WW.

I therefore propose that the Rito are actually far more likely to have come from the Shiekah than the Zora. If we look at the lineage from the Zora to the Rito, it goes as such: water/land - permanent land - air/land. I added in permanent land establishment as going straight from water to air is impossible. Notice that in our world, fish became amphibians became reptiles became birds. Fish had to establish a permanent society on land as reptiles before they could take to the sky. The same thing would have to happen in Hyrule, so we can't go straight from water to air. Whereas if we look at the Shiekah to Rito lineage, it would go like so: permanent land - air/land. Far more plausible to happen in the time frame we're talking about than the Zora to Rito lineage.

Oh and about Medli. As far as I know, she is the only Rito with hair, other than Komali for some reason, suggesting that they have a slightly different lineage than the other Rito. Especially since the descendant of the Zora sage is Medli. Also, Medli has the Zora emblem on her dress, so it is possible that she came from interbreeding, and that the Zora are not the common ancestor of the Rito.

Oh, just as a funny aside, how the hell did Medli happen? It looks like a Zora, a Shiekah, a bird, and Malon got together and created... it.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Aralith

First off, how or why would a fish species evolve into anything else after a Great Flood caused the entire world to be their own freaking habitat.

Due to the fact that there are Zoras in PH, FSA, aLttP [which I know you and I both place post-WW] it would appear not all Zoras evolved.
Some evolved into Ritos, and some adapted to the Great Sea, and became hostile [OoT,MM, and TP are the only games where they are friendly]

Secondly, if Dragon Roost Island is indeed Death Mountain

...if

Fourth, according to statements by Aonuma, WW takes place just over one hundred years after OoT. Even if the Zora could evolve into Rito, it would take far longer than that.

There are no plurals in Japan. It could have been 'one hundred' or 'hundreds'
And I believe Daphnes refers to Hyrule being sealed off hundreds of years ago...so we have two different translations there.

Fifth, even if the Zora did magically evolve into the Rito, why would the Zora be gone as well? While natural selection does involve death of another species to give way to a better one, the previous species only dies if their habitat ceases to exist or a better hunter kills all of them. Since the Zora are an intelligent race, and because their habitat is now most of the world, even if some Zora did evolve into Rito, some Zora would still remain.

See first point.
That's exactly what happened.

And finally, all the Zora have red eyes. Before WW, this was a trait known only to appear in the Shiekah. This is, of course, with the exception of Kafei, but he may be a Shiekah. Cannot say for sure, but then again, Termina is an alternate world and not exactly parallel to Hyrule in every respect it would seem, as the Shiekah are not in MM. Anyways, yeah, red eyes only appeared in Shiekah before WW.

Sheikah have red eyes, yes, but not all red-eyed people are Sheikah.
And the Sheikah are said to be near-gone in OoT, and it's implied that Impa is the last one.
So why would we suddenly have a bunch of them in Rito form?

[TheManInTheMoon]

And finally, all the Zora have red eyes.

You mean Rito? Chieftan has yellow eyes.

Oh and about Medli. As far as I know, she is the only Rito with hair, other than Komali for some reason, suggesting that they have a slightly different lineage than the other Rito.

They have white hair, its just styled strangely.

and for my fanfic-ish explaination...

For those too lazy to click, I account for the human features and dark skin by believeing the Rito are part Gerudo.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Goronlove7

Not being picky but what about OoX?

Oh are they friendly in OoX?
I haven't finished either one yet *shame*

[TheManInTheMoon]

Oh are they friendly in OoX?
I haven't finished either one yet *shame*

OoA has friendly "Sea" Zora (OoT looking Zoras) and violent "River" Zoras (ALttP looking Zoras)

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by MercuryMule

OoA has friendly "Sea" Zora (OoT looking Zoras) and violent "River" Zoras (ALttP looking Zoras)

Ah that's right, I remember hearing about that.

[Linkpk]

hmmmm i don't know if this will change anything. But the Rito arent born with wings, after they get the scale from Valoo then they get there wings...

[bitterlime]

Originally Posted by Aralith

Okay, I know that there already has been some doubt placed on the belief that the Rito evolved from the Zora, but I was playing WW yesterday and came across the Rito again and really began to question it. I think I can pretty much disprove any connection between them, except perhaps with Medli, though I have an explanation for them. Before I begin, I must stress that I am basing my knowledge of evolution purely on an earthly one. It could work differently in Hyrule, but since we cannot judge one way or another, I am going to assume that evolution works the same way in Hyrule as it does in the real world. Okay, so here goes.

Here we go again.

First off, how or why would a fish species evolve into anything else after a Great Flood caused the entire world to be their own freaking habitat.

So many reasons:
- Saltwater?
- Temperature change (which can be deadly fo Zoras)
- no prey for the Zoras in the great sea
- but plenty of predators which would be after the Zoras
- the Goddesses wanting to keep old Hyrule a secret

Secondly, if Dragon Roost Island is indeed Death Mountain, then why would the Gorons be salesman on the sea if their home is still above water? And the fact their bird leads me right into point three.

Dodongos cavern is gone/ flooded, their main source for food is lost.

Why in the world would a bird species be flying around a volcano? One that is clearly still active. WTF? Granted this was the developers mistake, but still, pretty stupid.

Because their serve a fire/wind deity, that seems to prefere this volcanic surrounding. They are dependant on Valoo because they get their wings from him.

Fourth, according to statements by Aonuma, WW takes place just over one hundred years after OoT. Even if the Zora could evolve into Rito, it would take far longer than that.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

So, before the sealing of the kingdom,
the gods chose those who would build a
new country and commanded them to take
refuge on the mountaintops.

Those people were your ancestors.

Hundreds of years have passed since then...

Ingame quotes > developer quotes, and see Erimgards comment about the possible misstranslation.

Fifth, even if the Zora did magically evolve into the Rito, why would the Zora be gone as well? While natural selection does involve death of another species to give way to a better one, the previous species only dies if their habitat ceases to exist or a better hunter kills all of them. Since the Zora are an intelligent race, and because their habitat is now most of the world, even if some Zora did evolve into Rito, some Zora would still remain.

I personally think that there were Zoras that did for whatever reason not adapt to the land/stayed in the water.

And finally, all the Zora have red eyes. Before WW, this was a trait known only to appear in the Shiekah. This is, of course, with the exception of Kafei, but he may be a Shiekah. Cannot say for sure, but then again, Termina is an alternate world and not exactly parallel to Hyrule in every respect it would seem, as the Shiekah are not in MM. Anyways, yeah, red eyes only appeared in Shiekah before WW.

So Midna, Veran, Vaati, Kafei, Din(the Oracle) and most people of the Windtribe are Sheikahs then?

I therefore propose that the Rito are actually far more likely to have come from the Shiekah than the Zora. If we look at the lineage from the Zora to the Rito, it goes as such: water/land - permanent land - air/land. I added in permanent land establishment as going straight from water to air is impossible. Notice that in our world, fish became amphibians became reptiles became birds. Fish had to establish a permanent society on land as reptiles before they could take to the sky. The same thing would have to happen in Hyrule, so we can't go straight from water to air. Whereas if we look at the Shiekah to Rito lineage, it would go like so: permanent land - air/land. Far more plausible to happen in the time frame we're talking about than the Zora to Rito lineage.

They show zero cultural relation to the Sheikah, if anything Gerudos are a more likeley choice if you searching for a land-race that could evolve into the Rito.

Oh and about Medli. As far as I know, she is the only Rito with hair, other than Komali for some reason, suggesting that they have a slightly different lineage than the other Rito. Especially since the descendant of the Zora sage is Medli. Also, Medli has the Zora emblem on her dress, so it is possible that she came from interbreeding, and that the Zora are not the common ancestor of the Rito.

They all have hair, their hair turns white when they grow up (at least the males have this feature, we can't tell about the females because we never see an adult female Rito).
If you look at Komali as a little child then his hair is brown at the back and white in the front. If you look at him as a teenager his hair is completly white.
Komali also has the Zora emblem on his clothing (nnear the flower) and he is part of the royality which one would susspect to be pure blooded.

Oh, just as a funny aside, how the hell did Medli happen? It looks like a Zora, a Shiekah, a bird, and Malon got together and created... it.

It really does look like that.O_o

[z0mby]

Everything debunking this theory has already been stated. So i'll say no more.

[Meralia]

Well, bitterlime said most of it already, but I just have to... again...


Reasons for needed evolution.
- Huge water masses coming from torrential downpour of rain makes a lot of dirty, murky, unhealty water. Who'd want to live in that? And who could live in that? Besides, it's not likely there's much food surviving in that mess either.
- The Great Sea doesn't seem like a nice place to live in. Octorocs, Gyorgs, Big Octos, whatever huge monsters everywhere, it's a dangerous life.
- Ganondorf says there is no fish to catch. Sure there are fishermen in Windfall, so there would be some, but still, seems the Great Sea is not very rich on fish. So, no food.
- Hyrule is sealed underwater. Possibly getting Zoras out of water was one way for the goddessess to protect the secret beneath the waves.
- To offer something new to the game, and a "whoa!" reaction when people realised why there are no Zoras.

Reasons for fast evolution. (Hundreds of years, not hundred.)
- Rapidly changing environment speeds up evolution. Possible in the real world, and in imaginary worlds.
- Magic works for everything. I don't think it was just "zora *zap* rito", but just that the evolution was sped up with the help of their deity's magic.
- Storytelling. It's a fricking video game!

Also, if they had Zoras in TWW, they would have had to either have an underwater place to live, or somehow explain why they live on land, when it says in OoT they can survive only short periods of time on dry land. For an underwater village, if Link would be going there, he would need to swim, dive, and survive underwater. With the graphics TWW had, water was dark blue and could not be seen through, they would have had to change that. Having the whole sea clear would be a problem with Hyrule under there. What to do? Leave it, it's easier.

[omega12]

<.< Alright, as a huge Zora fan i have to say, WTF ofcourse there related to the zoras!

Ermigard, shame on you for not finishing any of the OoX games! (Shame on me for not finishing WW, OoT, MM, Zelda, Z2, MQ, FSA, TP, or any other zelda game on a consol)

Also "River" zora as you call them are actually called "Zolas", though they are Zoras they are a differnt breed of zora, such as a great dane is a breed of dog, sot eh Zolas and zoras really ahve no connection.

Alright now!

If you notice the Fins, evolved into the wings.

Now, Zora HAVE to live on land, and water. therfor the zora have to have somehow been able to live on land, i mean thers barely any land, and a bunch of sea, so somehow they would ahve to evovle past the need for water.

I agree with ^ thye were probly there to not be able to find old hyrule. Plus the sea is a very dangerous place now.

As frot he gorons leaveing Deat MT. and the Rito moving in, Deathmountain became flooded, ruining most of the caves the Goron had dug, and ruining most of the metals in death mountain. As for the rito inhabiting it, why wouldnt they, the mountain reaches way up into the sky, its perffect for a bird species.

As for teh speedy evolution, Dins Pearl. Now I am a little torn here, i mean Rito=Zora=Naru, btu the rito have DINS(!) pearl, so From what I can guess is, Jabun (Jabu jabu) when he left the zora becuase they were no longer Fish poeple, took Narus pearl, So when the Rito (possibly at the time, Zora) discovered Dins pearl that had been left by the gorons, they decided to keep it to remember the NArus pearl they once had. However the Pearl needed a race to protect it, so it speeded up the evolution (or possibly transformed) the Zora into the rito, so that the Zora/Rito would not die out.

This is all I ahve right now, Ermigard feel free to tear my thory apart =o

[GamenerdAdvance]

Zora live in freshwater, not salt water. No fresh water = forcing evolution.

Also it has clearly been more than 100 years between OOT and TWW.

[Casual Matt]

Originally Posted by GamenerdAdvance

Also it has clearly been more than 100 years between OOT and TWW.

Unless of course in one hundred years Hyrule was restored, Hyrule Castle was rebuilt, Ganon returned, the world was completely flooded, the survivors settled on the mountaintop islands, various cultures grew as towns and islands flourished across the Great Sea, and anybody who was old enough to know about Hyrule or heard about it from someone who did either died or forgot.

[Chozo Ridley]

Yes!!! someone with common sense! I agree that the Zora could not have evolved into the Rito in any way. The point you made about WW coming only 100 years after OoT which would not be enough time for the Zoras to become Rito was spot on. It just makes no sense that the Zoras could evolve into the Rito even in 1,000,000 years. And if they were the decendents of the Zora then why would they live on a volcano? that makes no sense. I personaly think that they didn't evolve from any other main race and instead maybe the Rito are a new race altogether. *Gasp* (Rito evolved from the shiekah? that doesn't make any sense either)
There has been an argument made by many people saying that the Zora are a fresh water race and would not survive in the salt water of the sea, which would explain why they don't seem to live in the Great Sea. But I think that it would make much more sense for the Zora to evolve into a saltwater race than into a bird!
In the end I think that Nintendo wanted to introduce some new races without them being overshadowed by the main races from OoT; for all we know the kokiri are gone, the zora are gone, and the goron have moved somewhere else and few of them visit he Great sea over Hyrule just as merchants. The only thing I am unsure of is where the Rito came from and why are they now a main race.

and what real evidence is there that says the Zora evolved into the Rito?

[Meralia]

Originally Posted by Chozo Ridley

and what real evidence is there that says the Zora evolved into the Rito?

- The Zora symbol from OoT, the one that looks like Zora's Sapphire, appears on Medli's shirt and Komali's necklace.
- Medli, a Rito, is a descendant of Laruto, the previous Sage of the Earth, a Zora.

And it's hundreds of years, not one hundred.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Chozo Ridley

There has been an argument made by many people saying that the Zora are a fresh water race and would not survive in the salt water of the sea, which would explain why they don't seem to live in the Great Sea. But I think that it would make much more sense for the Zora to evolve into a saltwater race than into a bird!

Some of them did.
See the points made previously about two different kinds of Zoras/Zolas

and what real evidence is there that says the Zora evolved into the Rito?

A Rito [Medli] is said to carry the bloodline of a Zora [Laruto]
Medli has a Zora Sapphire symbol on her clothes

[Hombre de Mundo]

^ Note that those are the words of the Zora sage herself, it's not just loosely said by some bum.

[bitterlime]

Also note that Laruto wears the same clothing as the Ritos.

[Cukeman]

What I find most disturbing is that the running man in OOT had a Rito
descendant working in the post office?? How did that work out?

[Hombre de Mundo]

^ Can you give us a quote on that?