Zora to Rito...? What?!

Originally Posted by Adam_148

Aralith, it is stated in PH that they are not in the Great Sea after gameplay starts and where gameplay ends (beginning and end of the game). They are in the World of the Ocean King, and I am getting really sick of having to tell people this

Linbeck can be seen at the end of the game. Linebeck knows Jolene from events prior to the game. Beedle can be met in the Ocean kings world.
Jolene has a sister in the ocean kings world, but at the same time knows Linebeck.

So we have all together 5 people crossing over the "realms"

-The ghostship is said to haunt the area were Link and Tetra are before they visit the realm of the ocean king.
- Old man Hoho in WW seems to be a member of the Hoho tribe in PH
-Zephos and Cyclos seem to be members of the golden frog race in PH
-the goron merchants most likley come from the goron island in PH
-Zunari most likley comes from the island were those penguin people live, he looks like he has grown up with them, and he states that he comes from a very cold island

That makes 5 people crossing the realms in the other direction.

To me it seems ore plausible that the Ocean Kings world and the great sea are just different areas. Like Hyrule, Labrynna and Holodrum.
There seems to be quite some interaction between those two realms.

Exactly, thanks for bringing that up.

I actually think the Zolas evolved intot he mermen, but thats me.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Note the question mark.

Could...well physics may not apply to Zelda, but the greater a body of water is the colder it is.
The godesses would have to make the water magic/special to give it the right temperature...but whatever it could happen.

If I remember right wasn't it warmth that was endangering the MM zora not cold?

The OoT Zoras don't seem like fighter too me, vastly different fro the MM Zoras who displayed some fighting abilities. But they could have the same fighting techs in OoT, maybe we are never shown them.

They are shown to have soldiers and weapons in TP.

By the way I think that some Zorasmonsters disobeyed the goddesses, stayed in the water and did excactly that. Hunting and eating monsters, turning into beasts themselves to survive in the great sea.
This would then result in the Zolas/river Zoras.

How would they be river zora if they where in a sea?

They are probably not stronger then the monsters, but they could outsmart them

If your talking about physical strength then yes but take into account their sharp fins and electric attack (which is a retarded move) and they are very powerful.

Actually there is evidence. Afterall there is a tower of the gods that serves as a door to old Hyrule. And there is a test that only a worth person shall pass.

The tower was there just in case Ganondorf escaped and Link had to get the master sword (which is exactly what happened). Nothing suggests that they cared about some Zora kid finding the ruins of the castle underwater.

Who knows, but you can't deny that he does make a big jump in development during the game. First he looks younger then Link and then suddendly older.O_o

One of the many things in Zelda that makes no freaking sense.

He is prince Komali after all, but you might be right. Their royalty might be not blood related.

I forgot about his prince title. However that could just be the name given to the son of the cheiftain for lack of a better term.

either way: whether it be strange breeding habits or pure evolution, there is a Zora-Rito connection.

I'm not doubting a connection. I'm doubting evolution when there is no reason for it to have occured.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Linbeck can be seen at the end of the game. Linebeck knows Jolene from events prior to the game. Beedle can be met in the Ocean kings world.
Jolene has a sister in the ocean kings world, but at the same time knows Linebeck.

So we have all together 5 people crossing over the "realms"

-The ghostship is said to haunt the area were Link and Tetra are before they visit the realm of the ocean king.
- Old man Hoho in WW seems to be a member of the Hoho tribe in PH
-Zephos and Cyclos seem to be members of the golden frog race in PH
-the goron merchants most likley come from the goron island in PH
-Zunari most likley comes from the island were those penguin people live, he looks like he has grown up with them, and he states that he comes from a very cold island

That makes 5 people crossing the realms in the other direction.

To me it seems ore plausible that the Ocean Kings world and the great sea are just different areas. Like Hyrule, Labrynna and Holodrum.
There seems to be quite some interaction between those two realms.

you got me on most of those things, but the Ocean King's World being a different area doesn't work, seeing as Tetra and Link wake up on the (repaired) Ghost Ship, and it has only been 10 minutes since they got on said ship. Them waking up on the ghost ship may seem like a dream, BUT (a big but ) Linebeck is seen sailing away at the end AND the ocean king states that his realm is not the world that Link and Tetra comes from

<.< The Zolas were evil to begin with! You knwo those thigns int he water that shoot fire at you? those are zolas.

Zolas were once called River Zora, however nintendo gave them an official name around the time of WW.

infact i belive this info was on Zelda universe a while back, when wwe still had that white skin.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I don't think there's much of a timeline limit for evolution in Zelda.
What about the Kokiri-Koroks?

I do not know, but this is nothing more than a logical fallacy. A red herring to be exact. Just because I cannot explain one problem, does not mean that my explanation for another similar problem is invalid. How the Kokiri might have turned into Koroks has nothing to do with how the Zora might have turned into Rito. They are separate events that happened to occur at the same time and that's exactly how I intend to view them. Just because the transformation is similar does not mean that it happened for the same reasons.

Originally Posted by Adam_148

you got me on most of those things, but the Ocean King's World being a different area doesn't work, seeing as Tetra and Link wake up on the (repaired) Ghost Ship, and it has only been 10 minutes since they got on said ship. Them waking up on the ghost ship may seem like a dream, BUT (a big but ) Linebeck is seen sailing away at the end AND the ocean king states that his realm is not the world that Link and Tetra comes from

I really would like to hear the japanese original, because it's not a big step from realm/place to world when translating these things.
Oh and please remember that the ocean king has time powers. So the whole 10 minutes thing should not be a problem.
I'm really undecieded about this whole thing, but it does make sense to me that it is possible to switch inbetween those two places without much effort.

Originally Posted by Ankiseth

If I remember right wasn't it warmth that was endangering the MM zora not cold?

Oh yes it was, but they are vunerable to temperature changes in general. Jut like reallife sharks and that stuff.
In TP the Zora armor extreamly increases the damage you receive from ice-based anemies.
And in MM ice is an instant kill if you are in your Zora form.
There was more that escapes me right now.

They are shown to have soldiers and weapons in TP.

But that's a long time later, and why would they need weapons if they are such good natural fighters.

How would they be river zora if they where in a sea?

The name would ofcourse be horrible missleading. This whole theory really suffers if you take OoX in account, but maybe the hadn't though of an explanation at that time.

If your talking about physical strength then yes but take into account their sharp fins and electric attack (which is a retarded move) and they are very powerful.

I alwas though that the electric thing could only be done by Zoras with magic skills. But if they posses the same sharb fins you get in MM. then they might stand a chance.

The tower was there just in case Ganondorf escaped and Link had to get the master sword (which is exactly what happened). Nothing suggests that they cared about some Zora kid finding the ruins of the castle underwater.

Any prove that it was soley for that purpose, why hide the whole tower and make the whole processe so complicated if they could just do it OoT style.

One of the many things in Zelda that makes no freaking sense.

So true.

I forgot about his prince title. However that could just be the name given to the son of the cheiftain for lack of a better term.

Possible...I guess

I'm not doubting a connection. I'm doubting evolution when there is no reason for it to have occured.

Do you believe in Kokiri --> Koroks?

Oh yes it was, but they are vunerable to temperature changes in general. Jut like reallife sharks and that stuff.
In TP the Zora armor extreamly increases the damage you receive from ice-based anemies.
And in MM ice is an instant kill if you are in your Zora form.
There was more that escapes me right now.

Your right. I forgot about all that stuff.

But that's a long time later, and why would they need weapons if they are such good natural fighters.

For the same reason human's use weapons. The smarter a species gets the less they have to use their natural weapons and the more they use more powerful weapons they make.

The name would ofcourse be horrible missleading. This whole theory really suffers if you take OoX in account, but maybe the hadn't though of an explanation at that time.

If I remember right, there are no zora in seasons so you could just say OoA.

I alwas though that the electric thing could only be done by Zoras with magic skills.

That's right but we have no idea how common (or uncommon) magic Zora's are so I think we should count it.

But if they posses the same sharb fins you get in MM. then they might stand a chance.

With their superior minds more than a chance.

Any prove that it was soley for that purpose, why hide the whole tower and make the whole processe so complicated if they could just do it OoT style.

Because WW was trying to be different and not rehash OoT (I'm looking at you TP, best Zelda my butt). Also I believe the king says that the tower was made so men could prove how worthy they are. I don't remember the exact quote however.

Do you believe in Kokiri --> Koroks?

I should considering It's a fact but that has nothing to do with the Zora's. The Kokiri actually had a reason to change (they had to get lighter so they could fly).

I have posted this in another Zora to Rito thread...

If you take a large number of things into consideration, real life, movies, etc. then you can answer alot of these things.

First off, anyone see Water World? Based off of real world principles, at least the planet it's self, IF the water levels rose that high on earth, the fresh water (from the ice caps, or in this case, the rain) would be enough to delude the salt water, there for making it drinkable (btw, that's a scientific fact) so, even if the River Zoras didn't like salt water, there would be little to no salt in the Great Sea for them to get their fins all in a bunch.

Secondly, if we look at evolution, in real life, we, humans, evolved from fish, which turned into reptiles, which then turned into mammals, which again turned into primates, and of course finally us (scientific fact, not religion). Birds are a direct descendant of dinosaurs. And dinosaurs came from the waters as fish. So, what can this tell us? Simple, it's not to far fetched to think that the Zora evolved into the Rito. What we know about the placement of TWW and OoT, is that TWW takes place hundreds of years after OoT.

So, this brings me to two theories. First, I'm guessing that Valoo and/or Jabun/Jabu Jabu were told about the mass flooding in advance by the goddesses, and were told to advance the race so that they maybe could not go see old Hyrule. Or secondly, they (Zora) would not be able to survive in a world of large monsters. Water levels rise, and you don't exactly know what is under the waters. PH gives us a good example of that, with the flying whale in all. Evolution doesn't happen unless the species needs to to survive.

Also in a study (from last year) they have proven that evolution can happen in a mere few generations. So, perhaps the evolution of Zora to Rito isn't so far fetched, but the circumstances have to be dire. And if the goddesses deemed it, it could be dire to them.

Originally Posted by Link_86_1

I have posted this in another Zora to Rito thread...

If you take a large number of things into consideration, real life, movies, etc. then you can answer alot of these things.

First off, anyone see Water World? Based off of real world principles, at least the planet it's self, IF the water levels rose that high on earth, the fresh water (from the ice caps, or in this case, the rain) would be enough to delude the salt water, there for making it drinkable (btw, that's a scientific fact) so, even if the River Zoras didn't like salt water, there would be little to no salt in the Great Sea for them to get their fins all in a bunch.

This sounds like its far more in tandem with why they SHOULDN'T have evolved, rather than why they SHOULD have.

Secondly, if we look at evolution, in real life, we, humans, evolved from fish, which turned into reptiles, which then turned into mammals, which again turned into primates, and of course finally us (scientific fact, not religion). Birds are a direct descendant of dinosaurs. And dinosaurs came from the waters as fish.

A little simplified, but mostly correct. You forgot about amphibians though. I would classify the Zora as amphibians as they can live both in the water and on land, though for only short periods on land, just as real life amphibians can only survive short periods on land without returning to water.

So, what can this tell us? Simple, it's not to far fetched to think that the Zora evolved into the Rito. What we know about the placement of TWW and OoT, is that TWW takes place hundreds of years after OoT.

Oh, it's pretty far fetched, considering that amphibians to birds took a few hundred million years, whereas we're talking about a few hundred between OoT and WW.

So, this brings me to two theories. First, I'm guessing that Valoo and/or Jabun/Jabu Jabu were told about the mass flooding in advance by the goddesses, and were told to advance the race so that they maybe could not go see old Hyrule.

This is not a theory. This is what we call a hypothesis. A statement made about an observation but that is still mostly speculative. There is absolutely no concrete reason to believe that the goddesses would warn the demigods. Hell, they completely skipped the demigods and told some of the people to take refuge on the mountaintops. If the goddesses told anything to the Zora, my guess is that they told them to move away from Hyrule, as I suggested in one of my previous posts. I didn't attribute it to the goddesses, but I hypothesized that the Zoras move away from Hyrule, possibly to Labrynna, where they appear later in OoA. Also, we dont' even know if Jabu-Jabu survived OoT. He is nowhere to be found in the future Hyrule. And since WW is on the adult side, it is quite debatable as to whether Jabu-Jabu is even alive.

Or secondly, they (Zora) would not be able to survive in a world of large monsters. Water levels rise, and you don't exactly know what is under the waters. PH gives us a good example of that, with the flying whale in all. Evolution doesn't happen unless the species needs to to survive.

And the Zora were doing just fine with all of the monsters in OoT. Why wouldn't they continue to do fine in a world that was practically designed for them? A whole freaking ocean, and all of a sudden, they DON'T have the advantage. No way. I do not buy it at all. They could have survived just fine after the flooding.

Also in a study (from last year) they have proven that evolution can happen in a mere few generations. So, perhaps the evolution of Zora to Rito isn't so far fetched, but the circumstances have to be dire. And if the goddesses deemed it, it could be dire to them.

Source? As far as I know, the only time that evolution ever had any rapid progression was the Cambrian Explosion, although most scientists believe that we just don't know enough about that time period to accurately discover what caused the seemingly sudden explosion of complex life forms. And even in the Cambrian Explosion, it took several hundreds of years (at least that we know of, though I think probably much more), which is far more than just a few generations. So, I'm really going to have to ask for a source on that study before I can even begin to consider it.

While I didn't find the article that I personally seen, I did find this one Lizard Evolution on the Quick at Jeremy Shere

Which takes place in about 30 years.

There is also this article, which seems to be on par of what I have read, http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html


While yes, the Zora could handle the monsters that were in the water AT THE TIME, larger quantity of water could have made it so that the monsters were far greater than any Zora to deal with. Which maybe speculative, but very appropriate all things considered.

Originally Posted by Link_86_1

While I didn't find the article that I personally seen, I did find this one Lizard Evolution on the Quick at Jeremy Shere

There is also this article, which seems to be on par of what I have read, Lizard experiment suggests rapid evolution

Which takes place in about 30 years.

These are still lizards being lizards though. All that they've done is had some minute changes in jaw hardness, head size, and stomach size. That is hardly evolving from fish-men to bird-men in a few hundred years. Also remember that since lizards don't live as long, their generations are shorter. Since we know that the Zora age at the same pace as Hylians and humans (Princess Ruto hasn't aged much more than Link has in the seven years between time periods in OoT), so we can assume that a human generation is the same as a Zora generation as well.

Since human generations range from 20 - 40 years, at the very most, only 45 generations of Zora have occurred (assuming that all gens between OoT and WW only consisted of 20 years, and that since we don't know how many hundreds of years have passed, but clearly not a thousand, else Aonuma would have used the word for thousand, that there are 900 years between the two games) to at the very least, 2 1/2 generations (40 years gens, only 100 years between games).

In your article, it says that what happened to the lizards happened within 30 generations. So, even if we take the absolute maximum number of generations of Zora that could have occurred between OoT and WW (45), there is still just no way that they turned from fish-men to bird-men in that time. Oh, and to those trying to make the argument that all the Zora had to do was become permanent land dwellers because they get their wings from Valoo, consider this.

For a bird to fly, it has to have the proper bone structure, and more importantly, the proper bone weight. That is why birds bones are hollow. So that they can fly. Even if all they had to do was make it to land, why would they have needed to have hollow bones unless they needed to fly, which means that once they got on land with solid bone structures, they would also need to evolve to have hollow bones, thus making the time between it even longer. So this whole argument about only needing to evolve onto land is a little far fetched.

While yes, the Zora could handle the monsters that were in the water AT THE TIME, larger quantity of water could have made it so that the monsters were far greater than any Zora to deal with. Which maybe speculative, but very appropriate all things considered.

If these water monsters became too numerous or too powerful for the Zora, it is far more likely that they would have evolved to be stronger fish-men, died out completely, or left the area of ocean that was endangering them than evolve into bird-men. I'm sorry, but your hypothesis just holds no water.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

So if one group can magically evolve, why not another?

.................... AAAAAAAAAAaHHHHHhhhhhhggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! Stupid peoples!!!!!!!!

First of all I don't know why you people believe in this fan created rumor when it is so obviously false. If the Zoras are fresh water creatures and when Hyrule was flooded they had to adapt, then wouldn't they just evolve into salt water creatures? which makes more sense:
Fresh water creatures -> Bird like creatures
or
Fresh water creatures -> Salt water creatures

and secondly, I believe that either the kokiri or the deku tree sprouts or deku scrubs did evolve into the korok. It makes more sense for a woodland creature to evolve into a different woodland creature than for a fresh water fish creature to turn into a bird like creature.