FSA is not Post-Flood

Originally Posted by mohammedali

Think about what you're saying. The mention of Triumph Forks is not indictive of anything of real relevance.
Firstly, both games mentioning Triumph Forks doesn't suggest which comes first. Otherwise, one could argue that dinosaurs being mentioned in the film Jurrasic Park and also in the 1930s means the 1930s comes after Jurrasic Park - this is obviously all non-sense.
Triumph Forks could be a term used from way before WW. This further shows how the above point does not suggest any order. For all we know, the term Triumph Forks was used by people who didn't know any better.

How dare you?! You sit here and ask for something more than anecdotal evidence, and then someone actually comes up with something valid and you ignore it! This is a rather obvious connection, the same way that if there was another game that featured a Dark Mirror, everyone would be jumping on it saying that it must be connected FSA. This is just ridiculous that you would even TRY to say that there is no connection between the two games. Oh, and here's why MC couldn't come before. Do you see how the MC map has a lot more water than other maps? Combine that with the Triumph Forks reference and it's got to be post-flood. Unless you're trying to claim that the goddesses flooded Hyrule in stages, which would be preposterous because the original point of flooding Hyrule was to keep it from Ganondorf, so of course it would have to be fast.

PH is IMO similar to Koholint Island. It has characters and creatures from other Zelda games across different times, but isn't actually real. It's no different to LA and MM, and just like those games, you can't use it as evidence for what is in Hyrule world.

No, it's not. I admit, that if only characters in PH showed up in other games, you'd have a bit more of a point. But in WW (the one we know is real), the Iceman in Windfall Island references the ice island in PH. He also dresses similarly. And what does he say got him there? Not the Ghost Ship, but an ill gust of wind. Not to mention, as Lex has already mentioned, Link has the PH in the end! This proves that it is not a dream. At the very least, we would have to call the Realm of the Ocean King another dimension, but since so many people travel through this giant vortex sitting around somewhere, I highly doubt that PH is another dimension. Nothing more than a far off patch of sea.

All you've done is tried to explain how it *could* be placed there, not why it *should*.
I can sit and give you a fanfic based answer of how LA could follow straight after MM, but that wouldn't tell you why it should.

Yeah, but enough coulds usually add up to a greater should. You're talking about a LOT of coincidences here.

If you reread what I asked, it was to give reasons for why a post flood placement of FSA is suggested by the canon evidence... NOT how could you justify a post flood placement.

If you're asking for ultimate proof, that's pretty hard to come by in a Zelda timeline theory. In fact, about all we have are justifications, and coulds. People just decide what justifications they can live with, and what they can't. That's really about the only thing that makes differences in timelines.

As to your question, that's simple. aLttP isn't in the Adult Timeline. So the timeline works like this...
OoT - Ganondorf doesn't get sealed in the SR in the child ending as he fails to take over and gets rejected as Gerudo leader.
FSA - The rejected leader tries to take over Hyrule and is sealed in the Four Swords.
ALttP - Ganon breaks the seal but is defeated by Link.

This is relevant, and in my opinion, this is proof that FSA goes post WW, so guess what, I'm going to respond to it. How a game fits into the timeline is a huge factor in deciding its placement. So tell me, how does the seal get on the SR in the child timeline? Also, where does TP go, as that placement is quite relevant? The truth is, the only way you can justify ALttP being on the child timeline is to come up with a "fanfic" explanation for how FSA is the IW. Believe me, I know. I used to believe this as well. I used to believe in:

OoT - MM - TP - FSA - ALttP

But guess what, there is no IW on that timeline without coming up with said fanfic explanation. But if you place ALttP on the adult timeline, no fanfic needed. OoT is the IW.

[quote]If Ganondorf is out, and he gets all his powers, why would the OoT seal still be intact?[/quote

Because we know that in ALttP he needs the maidens power to unlock the seal. However he got out in WW, it wasn't by breaking the seal.

Why would that seal matter?

Are you suggesting that they called a war the Seal War, but it didn't actually have anything to do with sealing something away? Also, we know there is a seal on the SR at the beginning of ALttP. That's why Ganondorf is using the power of the maidens. So, the seal very much matters.

[quote]Why would it effect the 'new' Ganondorf (which is a silly idea given he's always the one constant in the games.[quote]

Because if there is still a seal on the Sacred Realm when he is put in it, ala Four Sword, then it would still affect him.

What about Ganondorf being confirmed in OoT to be the same as the one in aLttP BS?

First of all, I don't know when it was confirmed, but here's what I believe about that. At the end of WW, only Ganondorf's body died, but the spirit of Ganon lived on (I believe this for several reasons, and I will not give all of them now, but if you'd like me to elaborate in my next post, I can). Ganon then found a new home in the Trident. When FSA Ganondorf grabbed the trident, the spirit of Ganon possessed him, thus turning him from Ganondorf, to the Blue Pig Ganon we know and love. This accounts for several things. One, how it can be the same Ganondorf. It's a new body, but the same villain inhabits it. Two, how Blue Pig Ganon even came into existence. And three, why ALttP and OoX Ganon has the Trident.

You seem to be forgetting a lot of obvious facts... but as I said before, let's not get sidetracked right now.

As I said before, this is not getting sidetracked. How games fit in with the timeline around them is a very important part of placing them. One that we cannot forget, especially if we do in fact need to come up with a new placement for FSA, as you believe. I'm just using the timeline to show you how we don't need a new placement, because FSA fits nearly perfectly between WW and ALttP on the adult timeline.

Originally Posted by Mr. Lexxi Aileron

Oh, by the way, if PH is a dream, how does Link wind up with the actual Phantom Hourglass, how does Linebeck get back to the real world, and how do a number of other characters also get there?

Same way all of this happens in MM. If you haven't noticed, there's a theme since aLttP for Links that have been in MS related missions, to have a side quest after that is unrelated to the world of Hyrule.
For aLttP it was Kohiliat Island in LA
For OoT it was Termina in MM
For WW it was the Ocean Kings area in PH

But as far as we know, it's not, unless TMC is before TWW, which we don't know.

Exactly. The only way you can use Triumph Forks as proof for TMC coming after WW, is by assuming TMC is not before WW... That's not a very solid arguement.

Because the sages' seals can't be destroyed by his power?

Why would he even care about breaking a seal if he can already get past it? That's like a prisoner worrying about finding the key to the jail door, when he's already found a hole in the wall that lets him out.
The concept of the OoT seal still being there after WW makes the whole idea of the seal redundant.

Because it was cast by the sages in response to him taking the Triforce, whereas the FSA seal wasn't.

The seal during the Seal War was actually cast whilst Ganon was in the SR in responce to his evil chi coming through. This works well with FSA, it just means we don't see the whole of the Seal War.

When?

Miyamoto on OoT: "During the time when Link is an adult, conditions are intensified. Ganon, from the Super NES game, is a human form before he transforms into a monster. Ganon's elements change during the adult, since he changes into a monster."

This is Miyamoto confirming and explaining that this is the same Ganon from aLttP, but in his human form. Therefore to say the Ganon in aLttP has a different human form to the one in FSA goes against the creators.

Anyway Lex, you still haven't given a breakdown of why FSA is *suggested* to be post-flood. You're still only sticking to how it *could* be. It suggests to me that you don't have a solid arguement for it.

Originally Posted by Aralith

How dare you?! You sit here and ask for something more than anecdotal evidence, and then someone actually comes up with something valid and you ignore it! This is a rather obvious connection, the same way that if there was another game that featured a Dark Mirror, everyone would be jumping on it saying that it must be connected FSA. This is just ridiculous that you would even TRY to say that there is no connection between the two games. Oh, and here's why MC couldn't come before. Do you see how the MC map has a lot more water than other maps? Combine that with the Triumph Forks reference and it's got to be post-flood. Unless you're trying to claim that the goddesses flooded Hyrule in stages, which would be preposterous because the original point of flooding Hyrule was to keep it from Ganondorf, so of course it would have to be fast.

The only reason you're getting pissy is because I've highlighted how weak your arguement is. The Triumph Forks line is more or less useless in giving us a solid connection of where the games go.
Also, this idea of there being water around Hryule is one I find hilerious too. Does anyone here think that Hyrule in any game doesn't have a sea somewhere? I mean seriously. You need to come up with some real proof rather than things that require a narrow view of thinking to make sense.

No, it's not. I admit, that if only characters in PH showed up in other games, you'd have a bit more of a point. But in WW (the one we know is real), the Iceman in Windfall Island references the ice island in PH. He also dresses similarly. And what does he say got him there? Not the Ghost Ship, but an ill gust of wind. Not to mention, as Lex has already mentioned, Link has the PH in the end! This proves that it is not a dream. At the very least, we would have to call the Realm of the Ocean King another dimension, but since so many people travel through this giant vortex sitting around somewhere, I highly doubt that PH is another dimension. Nothing more than a far off patch of sea.

But the same is true for MM. Characters in MM show up in OoT too. Also, Link leaves Termina with the Mirror Shield, which was from Termina. Still Termina is not the same world as Hyrule. PH suggests it is similar in this regard.

Yeah, but enough coulds usually add up to a greater should. You're talking about a LOT of coincidences here.

No. It's not that many coincidences, but a lot more unlikely's.
It's unlikely the Gorons would start on Death Mountain, be flooded, and end up back on the mountain. Though it's vaguely possible.
It's unlikely the Zora's turn into Rito, live on the mountain, then turn back into Zora (or reappear some other crazy way). Though it's vaguely possible.
It's unlikely the Gerudos live in the desert and are all but destroyed, then end up back in the desert like they never left. Though it's vaguely possible.

If you add it all up, the chances of FSA being post-flood is highly unlikely. It just hasn't been proved to be outright impossible.

If you're asking for ultimate proof, that's pretty hard to come by in a Zelda timeline theory. In fact, about all we have are justifications, and coulds. People just decide what justifications they can live with, and what they can't. That's really about the only thing that makes differences in timelines.

Re-read my posts. I'm not for ultimate proof. I'm just looking for what Canon sources *suggest* a post-flood placement of FSA. So far, no one's been up to the challenge. Everyone's too busy explaining how it *could*, not *should*.

This is relevant, and in my opinion, this is proof that FSA goes post WW, so guess what, I'm going to respond to it. How a game fits into the timeline is a huge factor in deciding its placement. So tell me, how does the seal get on the SR in the child timeline?

Exactly how aLttP BS tells us it does.

Also, where does TP go, as that placement is quite relevant? The truth is, the only way you can justify ALttP being on the child timeline is to come up with a "fanfic" explanation for how FSA is the IW. Believe me, I know. I used to believe this as well. I used to believe in:

OoT - MM - TP - FSA - ALttP

But guess what, there is no IW on that timeline without coming up with said fanfic explanation. But if you place ALttP on the adult timeline, no fanfic needed. OoT is the IW.

Get one thing straight. If you think putting aLttP in the Adult timeline doesn't require any fanfic, then think again. There are so many issues with such a placement. The Ganon issue is enough to make the theory seem completely retarded to start with.

Because we know that in ALttP he needs the maidens power to unlock the seal. However he got out in WW, it wasn't by breaking the seal.

So if he got out without breaking the seal in WW - why would he need to break the seal all of a sudden. Why not use the same method as last time (try not to use random fanfic to answer this point).
Also, what's the point of a seal if it can be bypassed.

Are you suggesting that they called a war the Seal War, but it didn't actually have anything to do with sealing something away? Also, we know there is a seal on the SR at the beginning of ALttP. That's why Ganondorf is using the power of the maidens. So, the seal very much matters.

Read up on aLttP. The seal was cast on a place where Ganon's 'chi' eminated. The BS doesn't say Ganon was sealed himself, but suggests it was an effect of creating the seal to the SR.

Because if there is still a seal on the Sacred Realm when he is put in it, ala Four Sword, then it would still affect him.

But he got out the last time. If the seal didn't keep him in then, why would it now? (again, no random fanfic). Also, see the point about the Seal being on where Ganon's chi came from.

First of all, I don't know when it was confirmed, but here's what I believe about that. At the end of WW, only Ganondorf's body died, but the spirit of Ganon lived on (I believe this for several reasons, and I will not give all of them now, but if you'd like me to elaborate in my next post, I can). Ganon then found a new home in the Trident. When FSA Ganondorf grabbed the trident, the spirit of Ganon possessed him, thus turning him from Ganondorf, to the Blue Pig Ganon we know and love. This accounts for several things. One, how it can be the same Ganondorf. It's a new body, but the same villain inhabits it. Two, how Blue Pig Ganon even came into existence. And three, why ALttP and OoX Ganon has the Trident.

Thanks for that, but it's almost all based on random fanfic and completely unimplied. Again, this is a great version of how it could work rather than should. It also seems to go against the Shigsy quote above.

As I said before, this is not getting sidetracked. How games fit in with the timeline around them is a very important part of placing them. One that we cannot forget, especially if we do in fact need to come up with a new placement for FSA, as you believe. I'm just using the timeline to show you how we don't need a new placement, because FSA fits nearly perfectly between WW and ALttP on the adult timeline.

But it's defeatist. If you start basing your placements on assumptions of where games go like they're fact, but in turn were based on assumptions too, you get in to a big problem.
If I started with the assumption that TMC is *definately* before OoT, then tried to place FSA, it would make my theory prone to a lot of errors. Instead, it's best to look at where all the games suggest they go using the game itself as the primary form of consideration. Once you have an idea of where it happens, then see how it all plays out. I find that by doing this, you get much better timelines.

So this thread still hasn't shed it's destructive natur?
Well, I demand you to come up with a FSA placement of your own and then we shall see which placement works out better.
That way this thread can actually become productive instead of destructive.

Originally Posted by mohammedali

Same way all of this happens in MM. If you haven't noticed, there's a theme since aLttP for Links that have been in MS related missions, to have a side quest after that is unrelated to the world of Hyrule.
For aLttP it was Kohiliat Island in LA
For OoT it was Termina in MM
For WW it was the Ocean Kings area in PH

What about LoZ?
And FS?

Both of these had sequel side stories that were quite relevant to the world of Hyrule.

Exactly. The only way you can use Triumph Forks as proof for TMC coming after WW, is by assuming TMC is not before WW... That's not a very solid arguement.

TWW definitely suggests that "Triumph Forks" is a result of the flood.

Why would he even care about breaking a seal if he can already get past it?

Because he wants to "rule the cosmos," and he can only do that if he breaks the seal, according to ALttP.

The concept of the OoT seal still being there after WW makes the whole idea of the seal redundant.

Not really. And even if it does, it's either that or TWW makes ALttP outright impossible.

The seal during the Seal War was actually cast whilst Ganon was in the SR in responce to his evil chi coming through.

Find me quote that says it happened while Ganon was in the Sacred Realm.

This is Miyamoto confirming and explaining that this is the same Ganon from aLttP, but in his human form. Therefore to say the Ganon in aLttP has a different human form to the one in FSA goes against the creators.

Ganon is always the same. The SNES manual makes this clear; the Ganon who threatens Hyrule is born from the events of the Imprisoning War. Ganondorf clearly doesn't have to be, since another backstory, and therefore another incarnation, was introduced in FSA.

Anyway Lex, you still haven't given a breakdown of why FSA is *suggested* to be post-flood. You're still only sticking to how it *could* be. It suggests to me that you don't have a solid arguement for it.

FSA isn't suggested to be anywhere in particular, except before ALttP and after FS and TMC. Since I place ALttP in the Adult Timeline, after the flood (where it has to be until TP truly can allot for it), FS and FSA go there by proxy.

The only clue we have are vague hints about the history of the Trident Ganon uses, which suggests that there has been a previous Ganon before.

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. But in AlttP and FSA the maidens are human. Now in OoT's adult ending the only sages that could reproduce into humans would be nabooru, Impa, and Rauru (but he is just a spirt right?). So assuming all of thier bloodlines last through the flood, please tell how they all produce human offspring. Realistically there should be at least rito, goron, and kokiri/korok.

So it means that OoT is not the IW or the game should be in the child line.

Originally Posted by Skylarkff

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. But in AlttP and FSA the maidens are human. Now in OoT's adult ending the only sages that could reproduce into humans would be nabooru, Impa, and Rauru (but he is just a spirt right?). So assuming all of thier bloodlines last through the flood, please tell how they all produce human offspring. Realistically there should be at least rito, goron, and kokiri/korok.

So it means that OoT is not the IW or the game should be in the child line.

Well, first of: This hasn't been a problem back in the days when OoT was developed to be the IW. So why should it be a problem now?

I would suggest that since the OoT sages are dead, and only two new sages which are not part of the sixsages were reawakened in WW,
there had to be either another reawakening. We know through OoT that not all sages have to be reawakened in the same race they had in trheir first "live".
A Sheikah a Hylian are likley to be part of the former sages (and by that I'm refering to the sages Rauru was a part of, those who built the temple of time). But Zoras and Gorons probably were not part of those sages because they are at peace with the Hylians for the first time in OoT.
The Gerudo aren't even at peace with them during OoT. And the Kokiri keep to themselves until the end of OoT, making a former kokiri sage unlikley.
This is furthermore supported by TP which shows us a all humanlike group of sages, which might very well be the original six sages.

The "sage descendants" in ALttP actually never specify a bloodline in the original Japanese. They simply are the maidens who "hold the power of the sages."

^ Well that makes things alot easier.

Do you happen to have a link to these japanese translations? I am not doubting you. But I would like to read them for myself out of curiosity.

A Link to the Past Quote FAQ

Enjoy.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I would suggest that since the OoT sages are dead, and only two new sages which are not part of the sixsages were reawakened in WW,
there had to be either another reawakening. We know through OoT that not all sages have to be reawakened in the same race they had in trheir first "live".

why would the sages be dead? we don't know if sages are mortal (as in, can't die until someone purposely kills them), so they may well live forever. there is a simple explanation for the maidens, interbreeding. It wasn't a problem in OoT, why should it be a problem in WW.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

This is furthermore supported by TP which shows us a all humanlike group of sages, which might very well be the original six sages.

the unawakened forms of the sages, as the sages in OoT are not awakened in the child timeline, so their unawakened forms will remain as they are, this means that Rauru was not awakened as a Sage until some point in the adult half of OoT, as the sage of light looks like all the other sages in TP

Originally Posted by Adam_148

why would the sages be dead? we don't know if sages are mortal (as in, can't die until someone purposely kills them), so they may well live forever. there is a simple explanation for the maidens, interbreeding. It wasn't a problem in OoT, why should it be a problem in WW.

Just an assumption, becaus they play no role at all in WW.

Oh and interbreed was never promoted as unproblematic in Oot. There were hints of Gerudo, Hylian interbreeding. But Goron/Kokiri/ZoraxHylian, highly unlikley because of their different reproductive systems.

the unawakened forms of the sages, as the sages in OoT are not awakened in the child timeline, so their unawakened forms will remain as they are, this means that Rauru was not awakened as a Sage until some point in the adult half of OoT, as the sage of light looks like all the other sages in TP

Well that there are in there unawakened form is possible...but that's only one valid interpretation.