The Imprisoning War/Ganon Rebirth Dilemma

[Aralith]

Okay, most people on this board believe that OoT is the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP. And hey, why not? Miyamoto himself said that it was. Unfortunately, either Miyamoto made an error in judgement when he made WW, or he has seriously retconned OoT so that it is no longer the Imprisoning War. Allow me to explain:

In the Legend of Zelda series, there are five generally accepted points where Ganon(dorf) dies. Those are: LoZ, ALtttP, OoX, WW, and TP. In WW it must be noted that only Ganondorf dies. His alter ego Ganon never shows its face, which leads me to believe that Ganon still lives. In TP, the ending with Zant snapping his neck and Ganondorf still standing, his body not going limp, is a rather ambiguous ending. I would argue that it is impossible for anybody to say with certainty what happened there, and so for the purposes of this theory, I will not be considering that a true death until other games are made which support that it is, or if someone can show me some very good in-game evidence for this idea. In OoX, Ganon is reborn through Twinrova's sacrifice as a mindless being, and not nearly as powerful. He is easily defeated by Link.

So, that leaves us with two TRUE deaths of Ganon. LoZ and ALttP. There is one thing that both of these deaths have that no other Ganon defeat, seal, or possible death has: Silver Arrows. I would therefore make the logical deduction that it is in fact the combination of Master Sword and Silver Arrows that allows one to kill Ganon. Now, I know that the Light Arrows are often viewed as a replacement for Silver Arrows and have the same effect, but this can be easily disproven. In OoT, the Light Arrows do not kill Ganon(dorf), they merely weaken him so he can be sealed away. This is another piece of evidence as to why I do not consider the TP ending a true Ganon death.

Now that I've cleared that up, we can actually begin theorizing. Since LoZ and ALttP Ganon do actually die, we can therefore assume that they go on separate timelines. Now, the obvious choice would be to put LoZ on the child timeline, and ALttP Ganon goes on the adult timeline. It would in fact seem that ALttP must go on the adult timeline, otherwise this Imprisoning War spoken of would have no explanation. There was no seal placed in the child ending of OoT. Now, I know that a lot of people here can justify putting both of these games on the same timeline because Ganon is somehow reborn or reincarnated.

But, the only true piece of evidence we have as to Ganon being reborn is in OoX, when Twinrova make their sacrifice. It can be said that there is a rebirth in FSA, but as pointed out by Erimgard in his "Freshly Picked Oracles" thread, that line was actually mistranslated and it was supposed to say that the previous owner of the Trident was a demon reborn, not that Ganon was a demon reborn who claimed the trident. Thus, we have only one certain rebirth in the entirety of the Legend of Zelda series. I cannot help but believe that if there were another one somewhere in the timeline that they would show it to us, or tell us somehow, as that is a rather important aspect of the story.

Moving onwards, it is this reason that I feel obligated to place LoZ and ALttP on opposite timelines. Here is where the dilemma is. In the adult timeline, we have WW, in which, as previously stated, only Ganondorf dies. Ganon remains, which creates an interesting problem. In ALttP, both Ganon and Ganondorf are present, whereas in LoZ only Ganon is present. This would lead us, or at least me, to assume that the game missing Ganondorf would have to take place after WW. So, our timeline thus far looks like so:

------[WW - PH] - [LoZ -
-----/
[OoT

Brackets signify that the same Link completed those quests. Now, this leaves us with an interesting problem. If LoZ is on the adult timeline, and ALttP and LoZ must be on separate timelines, then that would relegate ALttP to the child timeline. But wait?! Where did the Imprisoning War magically disappear to? In the child ending of OoT there was no seal placed on the Sacred Realm, and Ganon even has no reason to be there at all if it goes straight from TP to ALttP. Well, I believe I can answer at least one of these problems. If we place FS and FSA on the child timeline, we can at least explain Ganon's presence in the Sacred Realm in ALttP. In FSA Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword at the end of the game. In the GBA port of ALttP, there is a secret dungeon that can be unlocked called the Palace of the Four Sword. Within it, is the shattered Four Sword. The Palace of the Four Sword is in the Sacred Realm/Dark World, so I think it is safe to assume that Ganon was imprisoned in the Four Sword, which was then taken to the Sacred Realm where he subsequently escaped from the Four Sword. So, out timeline now looks like this:

------[WW - PH] - [LoZ - AoL]
-----/
[OoT
-----\
------MM] - [TP] - [FS-FSA] - [ALttP]

I have added MM and AoL for completion's sake. And since I'm fairly certain that the placement of these games is not disputed, we should have no problems with this. So, if we were to place ALttP on the child timeline, we have only explained one half of the back story. That is, how Ganon managed to get into the Sacred Realm. But there is still no explanation for how the Sacred Realm was sealed off in the first place. So, just to view all of the angles, let's look at what would happen if we were to place ALttP in the adult timeline:

------[WW-PH] - [LoZ - AoL] - [ALttP]
-----/
[OoT

We have this magical unexplained rebirth of not only Ganon, but also Ganondorf. After all, with the games that have happened, we have WW in which you kill Ganondorf, and LoZ in which you kill Ganon, WITH the Silver Arrows. Whereas that never occurs on the child timeline until you place ALttP there. So, we now have a dilemma. If we place ALttP on the adult timeline, we have an unexplained rebirth of Ganon (even if you were to place LoZ after ALttP, the unexplained rebirth remains because Ganon was killed by Silver Arrows in ALttP as well). And on the contrary, if we place ALttP on the child timeline, we have the unexplained Imprisoning War. I ask this of you then, members of ZU, how do we solve this?

[langford]

The only way OOT cab be the imprisoning war, which it very much is, is for it to be the same Ganon as LTTP. I generally just chalk it up to Nintendo either overlooking LTTP, or just not caring. Coming up with excuses to cram all the plots together just introduces elements of unbelievability.

(child) OOT---MM---TP
(adult) OOT---WW---PH
(classic) OOT---LTTP---LA---LoZ---AoL

[TheManInTheMoon]

Lex's Article on the Imprisoning War, plenty relevant

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by Aralith

Okay, most people on this board believe that OoT is the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP.

Actually, I think you'll find the vast majority do not.
Guys like Lex and I are in the minority :/

TP. In WW it must be noted that only Ganondorf dies. His alter ego Ganon never shows its face, which leads me to believe that Ganon still lives.

I've wondered about that myself.
However, it's possible that the only reason we don't see "Ganon" is because in your fight with him, he doesn't have the ToP or the Trident, and is thus incapable of transforming.

Since LoZ and ALttP Ganon do actually die, we can therefore assume that they go on separate timelines.

I tend to disagree with that.
When you consider there wasn't even a split timeline until after OoT, it was just assumed to be a revival then, and there's no need for them to be on separate timelines.
Not saying they can't be, but it's not necessary.

Now, the obvious choice would be to put LoZ on the child timeline, and ALttP Ganon goes on the adult timeline.

How so?

It would in fact seem that ALttP must go on the adult timeline, otherwise this Imprisoning War spoken of would have no explanation. There was no seal placed in the child ending of OoT. Now, I know that a lot of people here can justify putting both of these games on the same timeline because Ganon is somehow reborn or reincarnated.

I personally believe that FSA Ganondorf became one with "Ganon" the demon after he acquired the Trident of Power.

It can be said that there is a rebirth in FSA, but as pointed out by Erimgard in his "Freshly Picked Oracles" thread, that line was actually mistranslated and it was supposed to say that the previous owner of the Trident was a demon reborn, not that Ganon was a demon reborn who claimed the trident. Thus, we have only one certain rebirth in the entirety of the Legend of Zelda series. I cannot help but believe that if there were another one somewhere in the timeline that they would show it to us, or tell us somehow, as that is a rather important aspect of the story.

First off, props to Jumbie for the translation.
Secondly, I don't think they would make that big of a deal of it. The only hint we ever have of Link being reincarnated is one line said by Ganondorf in WW, that could be interpreted in different ways.
FSA Ganondorf would seem to be some sort of rebirth of Ganondorf, and as I said earlier, I believe then becomes indwelt by Ganon.

Moving onwards, it is this reason that I feel obligated to place LoZ and ALttP on opposite timelines. Here is where the dilemma is. In the adult timeline, we have WW, in which, as previously stated, only Ganondorf dies. Ganon remains, which creates an interesting problem. In ALttP, both Ganon and Ganondorf are present, whereas in LoZ only Ganon is present. This would lead us, or at least me, to assume that the game missing Ganondorf would have to take place after WW. So, our timeline thus far looks like so:

Well, by that reasoning, and presuming there are only two Ganon[dorfs], one on each timeline...we have another problem.
From aLttP, the chronology of events seems to be that he is Ganondorf, gets the Triforce, becomes Ganon, and then gets trapped in the SR.
This is fitting with OoT.
FSA Ganondorf turned into Ganon after getting the Trident, not the Triforce.

If we place FS and FSA on the child timeline, we can at least explain Ganon's presence in the Sacred Realm in ALttP. In FSA Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword at the end of the game. In the GBA port of ALttP, there is a secret dungeon that can be unlocked called the Palace of the Four Sword. Within it, is the shattered Four Sword. The Palace of the Four Sword is in the Sacred Realm/Dark World, so I think it is safe to assume that Ganon was imprisoned in the Four Sword, which was then taken to the Sacred Realm where he subsequently escaped from the Four Sword.

By placing FSA on the child timeline, you have the problem of how the Gerudos are viewed.
They are hated in OoT. Wear the Gerudo mask and talk to people...you won't get many nice replies.
However, in FSA, you are told they are a good people who honor the desert, and that it's surprising to think the King of Evil could come from them.

Placing FSA on the adult timeline, you have a flood and a forgetting of Hylian culture in between OoT and FSA to explain why the Gerudo are no longer hated.
It also accounts for the fact that FSA Hyrule is an island.

We have this magical unexplained rebirth of not only Ganon, but also Ganondorf.

As stated before, Ganondorf in FSA appear to be a new person.
And seeing as the Trident he owns is said to have been owned by a demon who was resurrected [as you pointed out, only OoX Ganon fits that description] and seeing as the Trident is said to turn you into the King of Evil/Darkness [a description only used for Ganon] that explains Ganon's rebirth.

[smallville boy]

Nope! OOT isn't the imprisoning war.

OOT is the first game in the modern chronology, and ALTTP is the first game in the old chronology, OOT and ALTTP havent chronologycal conection.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by smallville boy

Nope! OOT isn't the imprisoning war.

OOT is the first game in the modern chronology, and ALTTP is the first game in the old chronology, OOT and ALTTP havent chronologycal conection.

That's your opinion
Smallville boy, please keep in mind that just because you think there are several non-connected chronologies doesn't make it canon fact. You should state that it's your opinion that they are separate chronologies.

[smallville boy]

The imprisoning war isnt OOT. THat thing is proved with WW. Easy.

[TheManInTheMoon]

The imprisoning war isnt OOT. THat thing is proved with WW. Easy.

Actually, considering the state of the Triforce and how TWW represents a transition from full-blooded hylians to the seemingly weak-blooded Hylians of ALttP it may make it more possible that OoT is the Imprisoning War

[smallville boy]

You really needed play again, ALTTP,OOT and WW.

[TheManInTheMoon]

whatever TWW damaged in terms of a OoT - ALttP connection was then fixed by FSA.
Nothing in the order OoT - TWW - FSA - ALttP prevents OoT from being ALttP's IW. It no longer gets to go directly before ALttP, but it still works.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by smallville boy

The imprisoning war isnt OOT. THat thing is proved with WW. Easy.

Only if you presume that the IW has to happen directly before aLttP...and nothing suggests that.
Especially since Nintendo took out the line about it only happening 3-4 generations ago in the GBA version.

[langford]

If Ganon escaped, hyrule was destroyed, ganon died, hyrule was rebuilt, ganon reborn, master sword was found, sacred realm rediscovered, and the new ganon is re-imprisoned, that would pretty much eliminate any chance of OOT being in any way reliant to something put in that kind of place on a timeline. Either OOT is the imprisoning war, or LTTP has a new Ganon. Both can't be true. FSA has no connection to LTTP, OOT does. OOT is the imprisoning war, not some imaginary game after FSA. Nintendo is not perfect, there was no big plan for a single continuity.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by langford

Either OOT is the imprisoning war, or LTTP has a new Ganon. Both can't be true.

Why not?

FSA has no connection to LTTP, OOT does.

It was developed by the same team, features a Ganon who looks the same and bears the same trident, has virtually identical geography, shares a loss of the Hylian language, and features the Four Sword.

[langford]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Why not?


It was developed by the same team, features a Ganon who looks the same and bears the same trident, has virtually identical geography, shares a loss of the Hylian language, and features the Four Sword.

The imprisoning war is LTTP Ganon's backstory. If it were not the same Ganon, LTTP and LTTP Ganon would have had a different backstory.

[Erimgard]

The Imprisoning War [or more accurately, Seal War] involves Ganon, yes, but that's not it's focal point.
The main point [as suggested by the Japanese name for it] is how the Sacred Realm was sealed off.
I see no reason to say that the Ganon who was originally sealed has to be the one we see in aLttP. The main point is that the seal was created, and remains.

[smallville boy]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Only if you presume that the IW has to happen directly before aLttP...and nothing suggests that.
Especially since Nintendo took out the line about it only happening 3-4 generations ago in the GBA version.

Yes the impresioning war happen many ages before ALTTP, but....

Gani entered into the sacred realm-Imprisioning war-ALTTP


if you are a little bit smart you can noticed that gani always is inside of the SR.
so... in that time between the IW and ALTTP(500-1000- 10,000 years or the yeart that u want it) no one game can be placed, gani always is inside of the SR.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by smallville boy

Yes the impresioning war happen many ages before ALTTP, but....

Gani entered into the sacred realm-Imprisioning war-ALTTP


if you are a little bit smart you can noticed that gani always is inside of the SR.
so... in that time between the IW and ALTTP(500-1000- 10,000 years or the yeart that u want it) no one game can be placed, gani always is inside of the SR.

Show me where it is said that it Ganondorf had to remain in the Sacred Realm from the time of the IW till aLttP?
Nothing says it has to be the same Ganondorf/Ganon, and seeing as OoT Ganon looks nothing like aLttP Ganon, but FSA Ganon is identical to him and bares the Trident, it makes perfect sense that FSA [and also] WW happen during the time in between them.

If Nintendo wanted a direct progression, why take out the only thing that makes it sound like there has to be [a time limit] ?
By taking out the time limit, they can put as many games as they want in between.
And FSA also explains why the language is dead in aLttP.

[langford]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

The Imprisoning War [or more accurately, Seal War] involves Ganon, yes, but that's not it's focal point.
The main point [as suggested by the Japanese name for it] is how the Sacred Realm was sealed off.
I see no reason to say that the Ganon who was originally sealed has to be the one we see in aLttP. The main point is that the seal was created, and remains.

The stories are designed to prep the player(Link) to face the villain. If Link were facing a different Ganon, they would have no reason to fill his head with unrelated ancient historical trivia involving a previous one. They would have told him about the recent Ganon, and how he was sealed. Also, the world being destroyed and rebuilt, is kinda a big deal, and one that seems worthy of mention if they are going to go through the trouble of describing an ancient set of events.

[smallville boy]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Show me where it is said that it Ganondorf had to remain in the Sacred Realm from the time of the IW till aLttP?
Nothing says it has to be the same Ganondorf/Ganon, and seeing as OoT Ganon looks nothing like aLttP Ganon, but FSA Ganon is identical to him and bares the Trident, it makes perfect sense that FSA [and also] WW happen during the time in between them.

If Nintendo wanted a direct progression, why take out the only thing that makes it sound like there has to be [a time limit] ?
By taking out the time limit, they can put as many games as they want in between.
And FSA also explains why the language is dead in aLttP.

Ok ok ok, you said "OOT is the imprisioning war" and now you say "Nothing says it has to be the same Ganondorf/Ganon" ....WTF?????? the gani of the impresioning war is the same ganon of ALTTP.

ITs obviosly that ALTTP ganin and OOT gani isnt the same gani, are ganins of diferent chronologys.

Read this again dude:


The impissioning war is only the back story of gani of ALTTP, isnt a story of another zelda game.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by langford

The stories are designed to prep the player(Link) to face the villain. If Link were facing a different Ganon, they would have no reason to fill his head with unrelated ancient historical trivia involving a previous one. They would have told him about the recent Ganon, and how he was sealed. Also, the world being destroyed and rebuilt, is kinda a big deal, and one that seems worthy of mention if they are going to go through the trouble of describing an ancient set of events.

Well I think it's quite interesting to note that in the prologue to the game, Ganondorf isn't even mentioned.
The story is that the Sacred Realm turned evil and was sealed off, and that now bad things are happening even though the seal is still intact, and someone is trying to break the seal.
The focal point of aLttP was always how the seal was created, not why/when Ganon got trapped. This is why I prefer the Japanese title of Seal War.

And like I said, there's nothing in the games to say that the the Ganon we fight in aLttP was sealed away in the Seal War.

And Smallville boy:
First off, that is the SNES manual. The GBA version actually removes all mention of Ganondorf even being sealed off [though it is mentioned it much more vague terms in the game]
Secondly, even taking that SNES manual as still 100% canon, nothing in it says that Ganon was sealed away and remains so in aLttP.

[langford]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Well I think it's quite interesting to note that in the prologue to the game, Ganondorf isn't even mentioned.
The story is that the Sacred Realm turned evil and was sealed off, and that now bad things are happening even though the seal is still intact, and someone is trying to break the seal.
The focal point of aLttP was always how the seal was created, not why/when Ganon got trapped. This is why I prefer the Japanese title of Seal War.

And like I said, there's nothing in the games to say that the the Ganon we fight in aLttP was sealed away in the Seal War.

And Smallville boy:
First off, that is the SNES manual. The GBA version actually removes all mention of Ganondorf even being sealed off [though it is mentioned it much more vague terms in the game]
Secondly, even taking that SNES manual as still 100% canon, nothing in it says that Ganon was sealed away and remains so in aLttP.

By that logic, Ganon was a ballet dancer, because the manual never suggests that he wasn't.

The imprison war is a simple concise story. OOT is the imprisoning war. Nothing about it suggests additional missing chapters. Nothing of note occurs between the IW and LTTP.

[Erimgard]

Originally Posted by langford

By that logic, Ganon was a ballet dancer, because the manual never suggests that he wasn't.

The imprison war is a simple concise story. OOT is the imprisoning war. Nothing about it suggests additional missing chapters. Nothing of note occurs between the IW and LTTP.

There are no 'missing chapters'
Especially in the GBA version where Ganon is removed from the story.
The Seal War is all about how the Sacred Realm got sealed. I think the GBA version makes it pretty clear that how aLttP Ganon got into the SR is not the point of the Seal War.