Wind Waker Placement Theory (Extreme Spoilers)

[Casual Matt]

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread will obviously contain a lot of spoilers for The Wind Waker. That being said, if there are spoilers related to games released afterwards (ie, Phantom Hourglass) I'd like to respectfully ask that those be hidden in Spoiler Text.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the placement of The Wind Waker.

First off, I'd like to say that I think the timeline was very straightforward before TWW came out. AoL was a direct sequel to LoZ. ALttP was a prequel taking place long before. LA was a sequel to ALttP. OoT was a prequel to ALttP. MM went into an alternate direction after OoT. And the Oracle games fit nicely between ALttP and LA.

Now The Wind Waker comes along and throws a big monkey wrench into the spokes. But I think it ends up falling between ALttP and LoZ. Here are my reasons.

TWW obviously places it in the Adult Timeline since it describes the events of OoT's Adult Timeline ending in the backstory during the intro. Not to mention the stainglass windows showing the sages. Let's just get that out of the way.

Now, Ganon appears in TWW. This pretty much automatically puts it after ALttP. Why? Because Ganon was sealed in the Dark World at the end of OoT and was still there in ALttP. My theory suggests that Ganon was able to return from the Dark World because Past Link killed him with the silver arrows. And then in the Oracle series, Twinrova revived him. Basically I'm suggesting that he survived the final battle in the Oracle series, and waited to return to Hyrule when there was no hero to stop him.

Okay, I'm prepared for the instant problem here, too. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in TWW, but he lost it after the end of ALttP. But don't forget that the Oracle games show the Triforce in Hyrule Castle. And in TWW, Ganon's forces were frozen in time after attacking said castle. I'm suggesting that Ganon stole the Triforce of Power from Hyrule Castle when he returned, but the other two pieces were kept out of his grasp by the king.

Another problem is that it seems to imply that TWW is the first time Ganon returned to Hyrule. But this isn't really a problem since he was killed in The Dark World in ALttP and the Oracle games take place outside of Hyrule altogether. So it still fits in that regard.

Finally, I really think the geography of Hyrule supports my theory.

Image:Hyrule.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Ocarina of Time, Hyrule had the castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, a lake, and a mountain.

Image:LttPMap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While things in ALttP were shuffled around a bit, its basically got the same features. Castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, lake, mountain. Now look at the map of the 8-bit games.

Image:Hyrulemap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Totally different. Looks kind of flooded out, doesn't it? Hyrule was destroyed and completely flooded at the end of The Wind Waker. My theory operates under the assumption that at some point, the Great Sea dried up or disappeared somehow, leaving the Hyrule we see in the original LoZ.

Of course, any theory that doesn't place TWW at the very end pretty much has to assume The Great Sea dries up somehow.

Anyway, that's my theory. I know I'm not exactly a novelist, so I don't know how coherent my arguments are here. So if there are any questions on what I meant, I'd be happy to elaborate on any points. Other than that, I hope I've made some sense, and possibly allowed some of you to look at TWW's placement in a new way.

[Erimgard]

In Wind Waker, the Triforce of Courage is said to have been shattered since the Hero of Time left. Thus, the ToC has been shattered since the end of OoT.
How did the Triforce go from it's state at the end of OoT [Zelda=ToW, Ganondorf=ToP, ToC is shattered] to it's state in aLttP [Complete and in the Sacred Realm] then to Wind Waker [ToW=Zelda, ToP=Ganon, ToC is shattered] ?

If the ToC has been shattered since OoT, then no games involving the Triforce can come in between OoT and WW.
Seeing as in game evidence such as the state of the Triforce and Ganon talking about the hero of time [and not the Hero of Legends, aLttP Link], and seeing as the directors themselves say that the OoT adult ending leads into WW, there should be no doubt that OoT-WW is a segment of the timeline with no [existing] games separating them.

[langford]

Originally Posted by Casual Matt

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread will obviously contain a lot of spoilers for The Wind Waker. That being said, if there are spoilers related to games released afterwards (ie, Phantom Hourglass) I'd like to respectfully ask that those be hidden in Spoiler Text.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the placement of The Wind Waker.

First off, I'd like to say that I think the timeline was very straightforward before TWW came out. AoL was a direct sequel to LoZ. ALttP was a prequel taking place long before. LA was a sequel to ALttP. OoT was a prequel to ALttP. MM went into an alternate direction after OoT. And the Oracle games fit nicely between ALttP and LA.

Now The Wind Waker comes along and throws a big monkey wrench into the spokes. But I think it ends up falling between ALttP and LoZ. Here are my reasons.

TWW obviously places it in the Adult Timeline since it describes the events of OoT's Adult Timeline ending in the backstory during the intro. Not to mention the stainglass windows showing the sages. Let's just get that out of the way.

Now, Ganon appears in TWW. This pretty much automatically puts it after ALttP. Why? Because Ganon was sealed in the Dark World at the end of OoT and was still there in ALttP. My theory suggests that Ganon was able to return from the Dark World because Past Link killed him with the silver arrows. And then in the Oracle series, Twinrova revived him. Basically I'm suggesting that he survived the final battle in the Oracle series, and waited to return to Hyrule when there was no hero to stop him.

Okay, I'm prepared for the instant problem here, too. Ganon has the Triforce of Power in TWW, but he lost it after the end of ALttP. But don't forget that the Oracle games show the Triforce in Hyrule Castle. And in TWW, Ganon's forces were frozen in time after attacking said castle. I'm suggesting that Ganon stole the Triforce of Power from Hyrule Castle when he returned, but the other two pieces were kept out of his grasp by the king.

Another problem is that it seems to imply that TWW is the first time Ganon returned to Hyrule. But this isn't really a problem since he was killed in The Dark World in ALttP and the Oracle games take place outside of Hyrule altogether. So it still fits in that regard.

Finally, I really think the geography of Hyrule supports my theory.

Image:Hyrule.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Ocarina of Time, Hyrule had the castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, a lake, and a mountain.

Image:LttPMap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While things in ALttP were shuffled around a bit, its basically got the same features. Castle in the middle, surrounded by desert, forest, lake, mountain. Now look at the map of the 8-bit games.

Image:Hyrulemap.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Totally different. Looks kind of flooded out, doesn't it? Hyrule was destroyed and completely flooded at the end of The Wind Waker. My theory operates under the assumption that at some point, the Great Sea dried up or disappeared somehow, leaving the Hyrule we see in the original LoZ.

Of course, any theory that doesn't place TWW at the very end pretty much has to assume The Great Sea dries up somehow.

Anyway, that's my theory. I know I'm not exactly a novelist, so I don't know how coherent my arguments are here. So if there are any questions on what I meant, I'd be happy to elaborate on any points. Other than that, I hope I've made some sense, and possibly allowed some of you to look at TWW's placement in a new way.

Putting WW after LTTP or LTTP after WW both seem like funny prospects. Nintendo pretty much double parked them in the same location, it seems trying to fit both in a timeline is an act that takes away any timeline's believability. Of course it's natural to want to put them both in a line, but when scrutinized none of those lines can really hold up. Oh well, if LTTP can be moved around by people, I see no reason that WW can't get the same treatment, after all, they have pretty much the same plot setup. Ganondorf must be freshly sealed in the sacred realm for both, and OOT is the only game that happens in. Putting either game elsewhere requires inventing a game that doesn't exist to mask the huge flaws, but whatever, I guess it's more fun than putting them in their own lines. I usually just write it like this:
(Child)---OOT-MM-TP
(Adult)---OOT-WW-PH
(Classic)---OOT-LTTP-LA-LoZ-AoL

[NintendoTogepi]

You do know about the split timeline right?

Anyway, I still say this is the best one

Adult Timeline
OoT > TWW > PH > TMC > FS > FSA > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL > OoS/OoA

Child Timeline
OoT > MM > TP

However, this is also possible

Adult Timeline
OoT > TWW > PH

Child Timeline
OoT > MM > TP > TMC > FS > FSA > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL > OoS/OoA

Depends if you think the Great Sea can dry up or not.

[Tazryl]

If the Great Sea were to dry up, you wont find Hyrule. Daphnes destroyed the old Hyrule and sent Link and Tetra to find a new land. the OoT Hyrule is gone forever. No point in having the sea drain.

[Mattocks]

Originally Posted by Tazryl

If the Great Sea were to dry up, you wont find Hyrule. Daphnes destroyed the old Hyrule and sent Link and Tetra to find a new land. the OoT Hyrule is gone forever. No point in having the sea drain.

That's right, well, I think by destroyed he more or less mean flood it, take down the barier, no one can get there kind of thing, but regardless. The Hyrule seen in LoZ/AoL is most likely the new Hyrule found by Link and Tetra. I also find a problem with ALttP because the map is similar. Apart from the forest, just rotate everything around the castle a bit and it's virtualy the same. How ever as has been pointed out WW is suposed to be a direct sequel to OoT.

[langford]

It's more than just unflooding, there are many many things gone in WW that would have to be reinvented in the same way it existed before the flood. It's far too many things to believe.

[Casual Matt]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

In Wind Waker, the Triforce of Courage is said to have been shattered since the Hero of Time left. Thus, the ToC has been shattered since the end of OoT.
How did the Triforce go from it's state at the end of OoT [Zelda=ToW, Ganondorf=ToP, ToC is shattered] to it's state in aLttP [Complete and in the Sacred Realm] then to Wind Waker [ToW=Zelda, ToP=Ganon, ToC is shattered] ?

If the ToC has been shattered since OoT, then no games involving the Triforce can come in between OoT and WW.
Seeing as in game evidence such as the state of the Triforce and Ganon talking about the hero of time [and not the Hero of Legends, aLttP Link], and seeing as the directors themselves say that the OoT adult ending leads into WW, there should be no doubt that OoT-WW is a segment of the timeline with no [existing] games separating them.

That's a good point.

My theory operates under the assumption that the Triforce of Courage was not shattered immediately after Time Link left, but rather later when Ganon stole the Triforce of Power again.

Also, after playing Ocarina of Time, I always thought that the Triforce completed itself in the Dark World at the end of A Link to the Past because after Ganon was killed, nobody was holding any of the pieces, so it just went back to it's original location.

I know this theory is on somewhat shaky ground. Most ones involving both The Wind Waker and A Link to the Past are. I guess it comes down to whether you find the state of the Triforce or Ganon being in the Dark World to be a more compelling argument. Frankly, I tend towards the latter.

But I totally understand anybody who doesn't think any games can take place between Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker. I just more firmly think that no games with Ganon as the main villain can be between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past because I strongly believe that Ocarina of Time was, in fact, the Imprisoning War.

[The Zora King]

Originally Posted by Tazryl

If the Great Sea were to dry up, you wont find Hyrule. Daphnes destroyed the old Hyrule and sent Link and Tetra to find a new land. the OoT Hyrule is gone forever. No point in having the sea drain.

Its been awhile since I've completed WW. But doesn't Daphnes merely ask for old Hyrule to be flooded? While its clear his intentions where to destroy it, who's to say someone later on didn't wish for it to be unflooded or that it didn't dry out. LoZ Hyrule could very well be the old Hyrule. But then again, it may not be.

And call me a stickler for consistency and wanting things in the same continuity, but I have never bought the split time line theory. Sure, it maybe possible. But to me its a complete cop-out if Nintendo goes that route. This is not to start a timeline fight or anything. JMO. But if there are those who believe every game is just the retelling of the same legend, then why can't things that have been said in game or in the manuals just be chalked up to misinterpretation of the legend(s) and therefore, Nintendo can clean up any inconsistencies

[Mattocks]

Originally Posted by The Zora King

Its been awhile since I've completed WW. But doesn't Daphnes merely ask for old Hyrule to be flooded? While its clear his intentions where to destroy it, who's to say someone later on didn't wish for it to be unflooded or that it didn't dry out. LoZ Hyrule could very well be the old Hyrule. But then again, it may not be.

And call me a stickler for consistency and wanting things in the same continuity, but I have never bought the split time line theory. Sure, it maybe possible. But to me its a complete cop-out if Nintendo goes that route. This is not to start a timeline fight or anything. JMO. But if there are those who believe every game is just the retelling of the same legend, then why can't things that have been said in game or in the manuals just be chalked up to misinterpretation of the legend(s) and therefore, Nintendo can clean up any inconsistencies

Nintendo planned on OoT splitting the timeline when they made it.

[Erimgard]

Mattocks, why do you say that?

[Casual Matt]

I really think the fact Majora's Mask exists confirms the split timelime.

I mean I don't really get how the events of MM could happen in one timeline since both A Link to the Past and possibly even moreso, The Wind Waker, tell of the "Adult Timeline" ending.

The only way it could be a linear timeline is if after Majora's Mask, events similar to the adult portions of Ocarina of Time happen all over again, which doesn't seem likely to me considering Link would either have to be dumb enough to open the door of time for Ganon again or fail to stop him. Heck, even if Ganon opened the door, he would be unable to draw the Master Sword and enter the Sacred Realm.

I don't see what the big deal is, anyway. I mean most games happen in the "Adult Timeline". A Link to the Past follows from the adult ending, and thus, so do the NES titles. The Oracle games feature Ganon as we know him in the adult timeline, as does Four Swords Adventures. And The Wind Waker clearly continues the adult ending.

So far the only games in the Child Timeline are Majora's Mask, and from what nearly everybody says, Twilight Princess. And I'm pretty sure the latter was placed in the other timeline to make Twilight Princess and it's "realistic" style a parallel world to The Wind Waker's more cartoony approach. I think it's done in a good way because it keeps these different games in their own timelines, but the timelines are still connected with an actual explanation for the split.

[Erimgard]

Matt, I'm not suggesting a linear timeline. I'm must saying that OoT was not necessarily developed with a split in mind. Nor was Majora's Mask.
Wind Waker may have been, as Shigeru and Eiji confirmed it to happen after the adult ending of OoT in interviews in 2002, but they did leave traces of the Child timeline in it.

[The Zora King]

I am aware of the comments made by Eiji Aonuma and I do think those who support a single timeline theory have to take what he says into account. Seriously take it into account. I just think there is evidence that goes both ways. And I support the single timeline

[Mattocks]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Mattocks, why do you say that?

*sigh*, I can never find sources when I need to I'll kepp looking, but I remember reading an interview (Ithink with Shiguru) and he said that the ending of OoT was made to open up a new possibilities of sequles. I take that to mean they planned on having some sort of slip in the timeline.

[Casual Matt]

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Matt, I'm not suggesting a linear timeline. I'm must saying that OoT was not necessarily developed with a split in mind. Nor was Majora's Mask.
Wind Waker may have been, as Shigeru and Eiji confirmed it to happen after the adult ending of OoT in interviews in 2002, but they did leave traces of the Child timeline in it.

I apologize if my last post seemed to be geared towards you. I didn't think you were suggesting a linear timeline.

I was just speaking towards anybody doubting the split timeline. I, too, have reservations about the idea the split was planned since Ocarina. Majora's Mask, maybe.

[langford]

The split timeline is obvious now, but I have to agree with Erimgard and others, that Nintendo didn't always plan it that way. I don't really think Nintendo plans any further than the next game most of the time. Expect plot holes to be everywhere, Nintendo isn't perfect.

[Mattocks]

Just a point to note. When I first played through OoT, before I loved the series and read into it, I always assumed that Ganondorf was just sealed, and there was only one time line ending to it. I guessed that when Zelda sent Link back, because of the magic of the sages, the effects of the adult timeline stayed consistant. I thought it would be wierd for Link to go through all that trouble, just to be sent back in time, and have to do it all again. I don't know exactly, hard to explain, but just a thought to add in here.

[langford]

Originally Posted by Mattocks

Just a point to note. When I first played through OoT, before I loved the series and read into it, I always assumed that Ganondorf was just sealed, and there was only one time line ending to it. I guessed that when Zelda sent Link back, because of the magic of the sages, the effects of the adult timeline stayed consistant. I thought it would be wierd for Link to go through all that trouble, just to be sent back in time, and have to do it all again. I don't know exactly, hard to explain, but just a thought to add in here.

Thats probably how they originally intended things. Putting MM Link in Termina is a convenient way of getting rid of an extra Link. If you think about it, for a little while they had a very nice little trilogy going, Ganondorf appears, Link does some stuff, and Ganondorf is killed.

[Casual Matt]

Originally Posted by langford

The split timeline is obvious now, but I have to agree with Erimgard and others, that Nintendo didn't always plan it that way. I don't really think Nintendo plans any further than the next game most of the time. Expect plot holes to be everywhere, Nintendo isn't perfect.

More to the point, Nintendo doesn't put story first.

The timeline would be more clear if they cared more about it than things like gameplay.

[Mattocks]

Originally Posted by langford

Thats probably how they originally intended things. Putting MM Link in Termina is a convenient way of getting rid of an extra Link. If you think about it, for a little while they had a very nice little trilogy going, Ganondorf appears, Link does some stuff, and Ganondorf is killed.

Yah, but like I said, I remember reading something about "now possibilities", but I can't find it. Who knows, mayby he was just keeping possibilities open.