Buildings with possible Oocca origin

In God of Twilight's topic: The Oocca, the history of the Oocca was discussed. I posted a theory in that topic:

My theory (warning, I'm a pre-OoT TMC believer):

Long ago, the goddesses created the land of Hyrule. They also created creatures to inhabit Hyrule. These were the Oocca. The Oocca posessed very powerful magic, they were able to master the powers of the wind. For some reason, this made the Oocca want to leave Hyrule, to go live in the skies. The goddesses disagreed; there wouldn't be anybody left to live in their land.
So before the Oocca left the lands of Hyrule, they created it's current species, most notably the Hylians. Once they were be gone, all that would remain were the ruins of their former homes. They had their most important building, the Fortress of Winds, protected by a drone named Mazaal. On the top of the fortress, they placed a tablet with a message for the people they created. If somebody would be able to reach this top, the reward would be the Ocarina of Wind, allowing one to travel anywhere through the power of the wind.
In the sky, the Oocca built a great palace, that would cruise the winds. This palace would only be accesable by a special wind stream leading to it. Apart from this palace they built their capital, the City in the Sky, aka Celestia. This city would remain at the same location.
From their new home in the clouds, the Oocca maintained contact with the Hyrule Royal Family. At this point they were know by the Hylians as the Wind Tribe. When the Hylians wanted to build a Temple of Time, the Oocca offered their help. In return, they wanted to use the Temple of Time for their business as well. This is why the temple of time contains the Dominion Rod.
Over the ages, the Oocca lost their contacts with the Royal Family, the only thing to remain from these Sky People in Hylian lore was the prophecy that a messenger would one day come to their home in the skies. The Oocca also evolved into chicken-like creatures.
One day, when Ganondorf conquered Hyrule with his Twilight allies, he discovered the City in the Sky, and sent evil dragons, in command of Argorok, there to destroy it.
This plan didn't work of course. Argorok was destroyed by the messenger, who we know was none other than Link.

In the other timeline, the Oocca received a message from the gods one day. They were asked to built an immense tower on Hyrule, a tower that would be high enough to top a huge sea.
Once they did this, they created another drone, Gohdan, to protect it from intruders. Only the chosen ones would be able to defeat this drone, and to conquer the many other trials in the tower.

-

This is my theory on the history of the Oocca. I know some parts are arguable, most importantly the part where I suggest that the Oocca didn't only help with the construction of the Temple of Time, but also built the Tower of the Gods. But if you think about it, there are many hints suggesting this.
For the discussion, I'm throwing in a last idea. As the Oocca helped the Hylians building the Temple of Time, wouldn't it be logical to have an Ooccan sage as well? I say there is one: Rauru. He is rumoured to be able to change into Kaepora Gaebora, an owl of course, so would there be a possibility for him to have something to do with the Oocca?

The topic then went a little off topic, as many people were discussing the Temple of Time and the Tower of the Gods in it after this.

That's why I made this topic! Please correct my theory if neccesary, but don't flame it.

And before I forget, if you have anything else on possibly Ooccan buildings, please post it here.

i THINK That the OOcca build the temple of time, obviosly together with the ancient sages. ANd build the city in the sky.

This is my theory on the history of the Oocca. I know some parts are arguable, most importantly the part where I suggest that the Oocca didn't only help with the construction of the Temple of Time, but also built the Tower of the Gods. But if you think about it, there are many hints suggesting this.

What hints? This sounds like speculation to me.

For the discussion, I'm throwing in a last idea. As the Oocca helped the Hylians building the Temple of Time, wouldn't it be logical to have an Ooccan sage as well? I say there is one: Rauru. He is rumoured to be able to change into Kaepora Gaebora, an owl of course, so would there be a possibility for him to have something to do with the Oocca?

1. There is no firm evidence that Rauru is Kaepora Gaebora.

2. An owl has something to do with the Oocca? Is this just because they both have wings or something? Again, this sounds like specualtion with no evidence to back it up.

warning, I'm a pre-OoT TMC believer

I don't mean to go off topic but:

- In tWW, the Koroks are trying to plant lots trees so that they can merge all the islands as one.

- In the Minish Cap, Hyrule is an Island on a huge sea, and there are loads of trees. This seems like the Koroks have succeded and this is one of the islands formed by them.

- tMC has clear connections with FSA and FS.

- In OOT, there is a quote that goes a long the lines of : "Link was born before the King unified this country." Notice it doesn't say "re-united". In tMC the land is already united and ruled over by a King so how can it come after OOT?

I agree with this up to the part about them building the tower of the gods that part lacks proof but good thery

I completely disagree about the Tower of the Gods.

The Tower doesnt go all the way down to Hyrule, as it only floats in the water.
The Tower doesnt feature Oocca markings, structures, or anything of the sort.

And...the Tower is said to have been built as a simple trial, to determine if someone was worthy enough to open the way back into Hyrule.

The Tower of the Gods was made by "the ancient gods", as the King of Red Lions put it. I don't recall the Oocca ever being called gods, does anybody have a quote saying that? Also, the building floats, as previously stated.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

i THINK That the OOcca build the temple of time, obviosly together with the ancient sages. ANd build the city in the sky.

yeah, i agree. i think they did build the Temple of Time, but that is my opinion here.

By: Hugh O

What hints? This sounds like speculation to me.

If I make the assumption that the TotG is made by the Oocca through suggesting they built the ToT, I look for parallals between those dungeons:

-The animating of lifeless things, namely statues
-The same magical light-walls and extensive use of lasers

And with my assumption of the Oocca being the TMC Wind Tribe:

-Mazaal and Gohdan seem to have near identical designs.

For the discussion, I'm throwing in a last idea. As the Oocca helped the Hylians building the Temple of Time, wouldn't it be logical to have an Ooccan sage as well? I say there is one: Rauru. He is rumoured to be able to change into Kaepora Gaebora, an owl of course, so would there be a possibility for him to have something to do with the Oocca?

1. There is no firm evidence that Rauru is Kaepora Gaebora.

2. An owl has something to do with the Oocca? Is this just because they both have wings or something? Again, this sounds like specualtion with no evidence to back it up.[quote]

I know this one is highly debatable, and I agree it might've been a little TOO speculative, but never the less:

1. There's at least one source suggesting it: one of the gossip stones in front of the ToT in OoT

2. Uhmmm... he has something to do with time, and he (possibly) shifts from man to bird ? I'm letting this one die off for goodness' sake xD

I don't mean to go off topic but:

- In tWW, the Koroks are trying to plant lots trees so that they can merge all the islands as one.

- In the Minish Cap, Hyrule is an Island on a huge sea, and there are loads of trees. This seems like the Koroks have succeded and this is one of the islands formed by them.

- tMC has clear connections with FSA and FS.

- In OOT, there is a quote that goes a long the lines of : "Link was born before the King unified this country." Notice it doesn't say "re-united". In tMC the land is already united and ruled over by a King so how can it come after OOT?

First, let's counter your arguments:

-They were doing that BEFORE the king decided the kingdom should be left underwater. Who are the Koroks to go against his words?

-Hyrule isn't one one of the islands. When you see those islands, you are in a giant palce floating on the winds, or on a giant manta ray. You are MOVING. This gives me more reason to believe that the Palace of the Winds is cruising on a wind stream than that Hyrule is on an island in TMC.

-It has, because of Vaati being resummoned. But let's throw this one in: Phantom Hourglass has clear connections with Link's Awakening. Does this mean they are in the same (part of the) timeline?

-They could've easily been speaking about what happened before TMC, and that TMC happens almost immedeatly after the union war.

Than another couple of arguments suggest TMC ís first:

-At the end of TMC, considerable time is spent on Ezlo giving Link his green cap, and saying 'it suits him'. After the credits, a little text is shown telling Link and Zelda were going to have many other adventures after this one.

-In a interview during the development of FS, Aonuma tells the game is to be the 'oldest Zelda'. However, this is later changed. Wouldn't Aonuma like to give it another try with TMC?

By: God of Twilight
I completely disagree about the Tower of the Gods.

The Tower doesnt go all the way down to Hyrule, as it only floats in the water.
The Tower doesnt feature Oocca markings, structures, or anything of the sort.

And...the Tower is said to have been built as a simple trial, to determine if someone was worthy enough to open the way back into Hyrule.

Why would a tower float in the water and yet stay still? And if it would, it would require great amounts of magic. Who else than the Oocca can have such magic other than the goddesses?
And the tower DOES have Oocca-like things, see above.
As for your last argument: why would this be denying that the Oocca built the TotG?

By: Kokiri Mage7
The Tower of the Gods was made by "the ancient gods", as the King of Red Lions put it. I don't recall the Oocca ever being called gods, does anybody have a quote saying that? Also, the building floats, as previously stated.

In TP, Shad says the legend says that the Oocca created the Hylians, and my theory says that as well. Now, it seems to me that it's not strange if you call something that created you a god...

-

Thank you for looking through my theory!

Originally Posted by MazeMe

Why would a tower float in the water and yet stay still? And if it would, it would require great amounts of magic. Who else than the Oocca can have such magic other than the goddesses?
And the tower DOES have Oocca-like things, see above.
As for your last argument: why would this be denying that the Oocca built the TotG?

The TotG was only built to gain entrance to Hyrule again. Apparentely by this time, the Oocca no longer keep in touch with Hyrule. So why would they never show up, but decide to come down and build this one thing?

I don't have much time right now but...:

If I make the assumption that the TotG is made by the Oocca through suggesting they built the ToT, I look for parallals between those dungeons:

-The animating of lifeless things, namely statues
-The same magical light-walls and extensive use of lasers

I think that is just Nintendo reusing some gameplay mechanics of a dungeon. There are loads of similar dungeons/temples in the LoZ series.

And with my assumption of the Oocca being the TMC Wind Tribe:

-Mazaal and Gohdan seem to have near identical designs.

I don't really think that is sufficient evidence but it is a good point.

I know this one is highly debatable, and I agree it might've been a little TOO speculative, but never the less:

1. There's at least one source suggesting it: one of the gossip stones in front of the ToT in OoT

The one that says that he is an ancient sage reincarnated? If so, that could be anyone.

2. Uhmmm... he has something to do with time, and he (possibly) shifts from man to bird ? I'm letting this one die off for goodness' sake xD

I doubt very much that he shifts from man to bird and so what if he has something to do with the time?

First, let's counter your arguments:

-They were doing that BEFORE the king decided the kingdom should be left underwater. Who are the Koroks to go against his words?

Who says the Koroks were ever told that he said that? And even if they had heard it I doubt they would just stop planting trees.

-Hyrule isn't one one of the islands. When you see those islands, you are in a giant palce floating on the winds, or on a giant manta ray. You are MOVING. This gives me more reason to believe that the Palace of the Winds is cruising on a wind stream than that Hyrule is on an island in TMC.

It looks like an island to me...

-It has, because of Vaati being resummoned. But let's throw this one in: Phantom Hourglass has clear connections with Link's Awakening. Does this mean they are in the same (part of the) timeline?

The connections between PH and LA aren't nearly as strong as the connections tMC has with FS and FSA.

-They could've easily been speaking about what happened before TMC, and that TMC happens almost immedeatly after the union war.

Again, I think you're assuming too much.

Than another couple of arguments suggest TMC ís first:

-At the end of TMC, considerable time is spent on Ezlo giving Link his green cap, and saying 'it suits him'. After the credits, a little text is shown telling Link and Zelda were going to have many other adventures after this one.

So?

-In a interview during the development of FS, Aonuma tells the game is to be the 'oldest Zelda'. However, this is later changed. Wouldn't Aonuma like to give it another try with TMC?

I doubt it.

... Here's an explanation to what I meant, Farore keep me patient with you:
1) King of Red Lions said the Tower of the Gods was made by "the ancient gods" to "test the courage" of the people or something like that. You get the gist of it.
2) Tower of the Gods has dozens of Beamos and barriers, as does the Temple of Time. But, did anybody note that the Goron's Mines and Dodongo's Caverns have numerous Beamos and Armos, too? Thus, the Gorons can make things come to life, too. They definitely show very little affinity in magic, thus I'd think that the ability to give life to things isn't something restricted solely to super magic users like the Hylians and Ooccas.
3) Who's to say that the Oocca and other races didn't start out as ONE humanoid race. Then, as time progressed and the race went out into various parts of the world, the races "evolved" to "suit nature better". Gorons who eat rocks live in a volcano, Zoras who swim a lot live in a lake, the Oocca left to the sky and grew wings, etc., and the Kokiri were made by the Great Deku Tree and live in the forest.
Okay, last point wasn't included in the thoughts of before, but I thought of it while typing 2.

Originally Posted by Kokiri Mage7

... Here's an explanation to what I meant, Farore keep me patient with you:
1) King of Red Lions said the Tower of the Gods was made by "the ancient gods" to "test the courage" of the people or something like that. You get the gist of it.
2) Tower of the Gods has dozens of Beamos and barriers, as does the Temple of Time. But, did anybody note that the Goron's Mines and Dodongo's Caverns have numerous Beamos and Armos, too? Thus, the Gorons can make things come to life, too. They definitely show very little affinity in magic, thus I'd think that the ability to give life to things isn't something restricted solely to super magic users like the Hylians and Ooccas.
3) Who's to say that the Oocca and other races didn't start out as ONE humanoid race. Then, as time progressed and the race went out into various parts of the world, the races "evolved" to "suit nature better". Gorons who eat rocks live in a volcano, Zoras who swim a lot live in a lake, the Oocca left to the sky and grew wings, etc., and the Kokiri were made by the Great Deku Tree and live in the forest.
Okay, last point wasn't included in the thoughts of before, but I thought of it while typing 2.

1) I still think the ancient gods mentioned here are either the Oocca, or the Golden Godesses. If they are the golden godesses, they must've created the ToT as well, and I don't buy that. Isn't it commonly accepted that the ToT is created to seal the Sacred Realm, and that it isn't made by the godesses?
And it being a test is logic. The gods flood Hyrule, leaving only one way to the ancient land: the Tower of the Gods. Only a great hero may enter the land, as it is sealed for a reason.
2) I'll quote Zeldawiki.org:
'In Twilight Princess, they can be defeated by shooting them with the Hero's Bow in the eye, or by using a statue possessed by the Dominion Rod to smash them in the Temple of Time. They come in two variations, a larger brown type found in the Goron Mines and minor caves, and a thinner white type for in the Temple of Time. '
Why would they have done this? A special type of Beamos for the Temple of Time? This implies that the ToT Beamos are different from the 'normal' Beamos.
About the Armos: in TMC it's said that the Armos were built by the Wind Tribe.
3)The evolution theory of Hyrule. Hmmm... Maybe it's true, but would the believers of the Triforce and the godesses believe it? And Zelda ís a legend, and a legend is made by the people who tell it. Like the mayan creation legend that tells of people being made of mais, to replace the people made of straw, which are the monkeys. Is it true? No. It's a legend.

By:Hugh O
I think that is just Nintendo reusing some gameplay mechanics of a dungeon. There are loads of similar dungeons/temples in the LoZ series.

Let me show it to you with some pictures:


Sorry for the too little pics :p But as you can see, the 'light stairs' resemble very much, and I can't come up with another dungeon in Zelda that has this kind of light stairs.

I don't really think that is sufficient evidence but it is a good point.

Thanks! But why isn't it at least a little sufficient evidence? Mazaal and Gohdan just resemble so much, and the only other thing that comes close is Bongo Bongo, but that's only because his hands are cut off.

The one that says that he is an ancient sage reincarnated? If so, that could be anyone.

Forget the Rauru thing.

I doubt very much that he shifts from man to bird and so what if he has something to do with the time?

Because the Oocca built the Temple of Time at least partially... Oh forget about the damn bird.

Who says the Koroks were ever told that he said that? And even if they had heard it I doubt they would just stop planting trees.

I'll use a quote of the king himself, while he was wishing upon the Triforce:

By: King Daphnus Nohansen Hyrule
Gods of the Triforce!

Hear that which I desire!

Hope! I desire hope for

these children!

Give them a future!

Wash away this ancient

land of Hyrule!

Let a ray of hope shine

on the future of the world!!!

(Triforce shines, King returns to normal voice)

And let our destinies finally be fulfilled...

Ganondorf! May you drown with Hyrule!!!

He used the damn Triforce to wash away Hyrule. The only thing that can bring it back now is either the Triforce or the Godesses themselves.

It looks like an island to me...

What's that have to do with proving my argument wrong? Of course it looks like a island, but it's never proven it's actually Hyrule. In fact, there's even more evidence against it being Hyrule.

The connections between PH and LA aren't nearly as strong as the connections tMC has with FS and FSA.

Of course there are connections, because they are connected! Just not directly.

Again, I think you're assuming too much.

If I tell something happened in the past, couldn't there have happened other things between the thing I told about and now?
In other words: if I talk about World War II now, does that mean nothing has happened between now and World War II?

So?

Until another game is launched with TMC Link and Zelda, the only thing that can be assumed with the text is that it is the first Zelda.

I doubt it.

Fine, I agree. A aged developer quote on another game is too little evidence for a pre-OoT placement of TMC.

-

This way of discussing is fun!

Originally Posted by MazeMe

He used the damn Triforce to wash away Hyrule. The only thing that can bring it back now is either the Triforce or the Godesses themselves.

There is one problem with that, the king is dead after WW and the Triforce only fullfils a whish as long as that person lives.

Originally Posted by Maiden in swamp palace

...The Triforce will grant the wishes of whoever touches it, as long as that
person lives...

Originally Posted by MazeMe

Let me show it to you with some pictures:


Sorry for the too little pics :p But as you can see, the 'light stairs' resemble very much, and I can't come up with another dungeon in Zelda that has this kind of light stairs.

A lot of dungeons resemble each other.

Thanks! But why isn't it at least a little sufficient evidence? Mazaal and Gohdan just resemble so much, and the only other thing that comes close is Bongo Bongo, but that's only because his hands are cut off.

Because it's only one piece of evidence and even that piece cannot be proven.

Forget the Rauru thing.

Okay.

Because the Oocca built the Temple of Time at least partially... Oh forget about the damn bird.

Okay, I still think the connections aren't very strong.

I'll use a quote of the king himself, while he was wishing upon the Triforce:



He used the damn Triforce to wash away Hyrule. The only thing that can bring it back now is either the Triforce or the Godesses themselves.

See bitterlime's post.

What's that have to do with proving my argument wrong? Of course it looks like a island, but it's never proven it's actually Hyrule. In fact, there's even more evidence against it being Hyrule.

What evidence goes against it being Hyrule?

Of course there are connections, because they are connected! Just not directly.

I disagree.

If I tell something happened in the past, couldn't there have happened other things between the thing I told about and now?
In other words: if I talk about World War II now, does that mean nothing has happened between now and World War II?

That's different. The way you are assuming is like this:

"I saw Joe go out and come back with milk. He must have got it at Wal-Mart."

I know, that's a pretty dumb example...

Fine, I agree. A aged developer quote on another game is too little evidence for a pre-OoT placement of TMC.

Yay

-

This way of discussing is fun!

It sure is

Originally Posted by Hugh O

- In tWW, the Koroks are trying to plant lots trees so that they can merge all the islands as one.

- In the Minish Cap, Hyrule is an Island on a huge sea, and there are loads of trees. This seems like the Koroks have succeded and this is one of the islands formed by them.

Hyrule could've simply looked like that when it was created...

- tMC has clear connections with FSA and FS.

Yeah, OoT and ALttP also have connections, does that mean they take place right after another?

- In OOT, there is a quote that goes a long the lines of : "Link was born before the King unified this country." Notice it doesn't say "re-united". In tMC the land is already united and ruled over by a King so how can it come after OOT?

TMC Hyrule doesn't really look united, you have the Hylians/Humans, the Goron (who are a somewhat friendly race to begin with), the Minish and the Wind Tribe.

The Wind Tribe live seperated from the rest of Hyrule, the Minish help everyone in Hyrule and the Gorons' only connection to the Hylians is a simple merchant...

As much as I'm tempted to arguee against a tMC first placement, please let's not turn this into a "Where does tMC" belong thread.

Here is what I think about your theory:

- the wind tribe and the Oocca share their ancestor, at least that is what I believe. There are several hint's that the Oocca once had a more humanoid shape.

- The Temple of Time and the Tower of the Gods feature an imense amount of similarities. That would not be a big deal, since a lot of dungeons feature similar elements/design.
However! The Oocca and the Windtribe(whit help of the minish) are currently the only creaturs that have been shown to create such advanced tools/enemies as they are presented in the ToT and the ToG.
It's the fact that both the ToT and the ToG are so advanced that makes it extremly likley that they are of the same origin.

Has anyone else noticed the Oocca drawings on Fyer's cannon?

Originally Posted by MajorasWrath1

Has anyone else noticed the Oocca drawings on Fyer's cannon?

It is of Oocca design, Oocoo searched for the Dominion Rod to gain access to the cannon, did she not?

By: Hugh O
A lot of dungeons resemble each other.

No dungeon resembles the TotG as much as the ToT. See Bitterlime's post.

Because it's only one piece of evidence and even that piece cannot be proven.

Yeah, it can't be proven. It can only be proven by explicit in-game evidence or a very clear developer quote. But that's the problem of all our theories: we have to theorise with considerable doubt.

What evidence goes against it being Hyrule?

First, the thing is moving, second look at a close up:





You can see: the islands either have miles and miles of coast, and Link is really, REALLY high in the air when you see the islands, or they are just unsignificant little rocks.

I disagree.

The games can't be direct sequels, because in FS Zelda says something like 'Link! This is the legendary Four Sword I told you about.'. This indicates that Link doesn't know the sword at the beginning of the game, and that Link nor Zelda knows Vaati is trapped inside it, as Link pulls it out of it's pedestal and unleashes Vaati.

That's different. The way you are assuming is like this:

"I saw Joe go out and come back with milk. He must have got it at Wal-Mart."

I know, that's a pretty dumb example...

No I'm not. I never assumed anything like that! That's like I'm saying: ''Zora aren't in TWW and they changed in birds so Gyorg from MM MUST be in TWW to eat the Zora.''
Just an example

By: bitterlime
There is one problem with that, the king is dead after WW and the Triforce only fullfils a whish as long as that person lives.

When Ganon was defeated in ALttP, did the curse he put on Hyrule get dispelled immedeatly? No, it wasn't dispelled until Link used the Triforce to counter-wish Ganon's wish.
We don't know what happened to the Triforce after the king wished upon it. My quess: it returned to the Sacred Realm, waiting for a person to step forward and take it.

@Daemonius: altijd leuk om meer Nederlanders te zien op het forum

Originally Posted by Hugh O

A lot of dungeons resemble each other.

And lots of Zelda games have oceans and islands, but apparently a background in TMC's Palace of Winds proves something.